Quote from: Uncle Pete on October 25, 2023, 12:47

Just something odd in the news today.

"Black Lives Matter Grassroots stands in solidarity with our Palestinian family who are currently resisting 75 years of settler colonialism and apartheid."
https://twitter.com/blmgrassroots/status/1714005282807071196

Yeees! Fun things to do. I looked at their website and noticed one feature. Why are they all overweight? Is it because apartheid torments them?
And what does it mean "Black Lives Matter Grassroots"? This is pure racial discrimination! As far as I know, saying "Black" is illegal. It's correct to say African-American. Or did I understand something wrong?

No comment on physical appearances from me. Many of these women, the ones who created BLM and many of their chapters are highly educated. Not that I agree with them, but they are skilled and intelligent. They clearly admit or advertise their agendas, and align with the political view that they are openly Marxist.

This is not something I'm just shouting or calling them names. They are Marxists.

The Grassroots, is apparently chapters that have broken away from the national or are not recognized as part of that. Or don't want to be. Radical splits from the radical group. 

I believe Black is acceptable, the other N word isn't, unless you are Black or singing along with a Rap song. Blacks that I have worked with call each other Nigga, I never would touch that. Negro was polite when I was being raised, now it's unacceptable. There are Black people who disagree with African-American and there's always the argument that Africa isn't a country it's the whole continent? Last I was told in polite circles is, we are "people of color". I'm sure that offends some other people of other colors?  I'll tag that with, I recall blacks don't like being called colored either?

One of my strictly left leaning friends, reminds me the the right is afraid of brown people. That's apparently meant to include, Hispanics, dark skin, Indigenous, Latinx, and people who identify as Brown. (aka people who do not identify as white or black) Although there's some complication, because of the fact that, in South Africa, the "brown people" were the Coloureds and people of mixed race.

The the Asian question, at what point is there a difference between Southern Asia and Northern. And I'd never insult someone by calling them yellow. Clearly I've been told, "We are not Orientals, we are not rugs." So lesson learned on that point.

Last, really off point, but coming from Southern Italian heritage, Italians were discriminated against, maybe still are, because they are dark skinned. During the Summer I get darker than some of my Indonesian friends. I must be one of "those brown people" that the right wing is afraid of? 

BLM in so many ways has tricked people into believing that they are an upstanding cause for the betterment of black culture, society and protecting against abuse and violence from authority. What's the line? The greatest trick the devil ever played, was convincing people that he wasn't real. BLM sounds innocent, sounds like a socially positive organization, and who could be against someone that claims to be protecting justice, freedom and civil rights. 

If that's what they really did and stood for, I'd be right in line behind them. Instead their goal is to bring down the government of the United States. And once again, not my claim or labeling, it's one of their stated goals, taken from the founders website. People have been tricked and fooled, by a name and imagination that BLM is a positive, socially driven group, for defending Black rights and for being against racism.

https://nypost.com/2020/06/25/blm-co-founder-describes-herself-as-trained-marxist/

Quote from: Annie2022 on October 25, 2023, 15:17

Quote from: Uncle Pete on October 25, 2023, 12:47

Just something odd in the news today.

"Black Lives Matter Grassroots stands in solidarity with our Palestinian family who are currently resisting 75 years of settler colonialism and apartheid."
https://twitter.com/blmgrassroots/status/1714005282807071196

The founder of Black Lives Matter Los Angeles has pledged allegiance to Palestine stating that the real enemy is the "Israeli apartheid regime."

Chicago: "Yesterday we sent out msgs that we aren�t proud of," BLM Chicago said in a post on X. "We stand with Palestine & the people who will do what they must to live free. Our hearts are with, the grieving mothers, those rescuing babies from rubble, who are in danger of being wiped out completely."

Somewhat troubling that the Marxists are still gaining support in their efforts to divide not only the country where they live, but create angry attacks on everyone "white".

We should be working to end racism and ethnic hate, but instead, the politics of some special interest groups like BLM are creating further division.

Its not just BLM, its all around the world. Look at what is trending on Twitter this morning. 1million posts. British football clubs. Harvard students. Gen Z. All pro-Palestine.

https://twitter.com/search?q=Palestine&src=trend_click&vertical=trends

Thanks for that insight. I'm kind of dumb to politics, I find it divides and creates anger, mostly as one group or another wants more power for their political agendas, ignoring the freedom and rights of others, to have opposing viewpoints.

The same questions are asked about how someone like "H" took over Germany, the people followed, which created so much hate. Or more recently "T" that got elected President, and people followed? Yet the antisemitic leanings of some modern groups, follow the same lines of just taking a side that has little to do with their own lives.

Every time I read how some Women's movement supports the enforced wearing of Hijabs, which is totally control based, ordered by men, not self deterministic feminists. How can supporting misogyny be tolerated? What is it about the radical left, that makes them antisemitic?

Soccer clubs, what does a persons religion or nation have to do with that? I suppose, going back, not too long ago, the country clubs were somewhat self segregated, not just by race, but also by religion. Some of that was, people who wanted to be with like minded others, but also, if one group couldn't be part of "the club", then they could form their own club.

I hope this isn't off topic. I know I started the thread, but it was just an off topic comment. I never expected it to snowball.

Yes, Pete. It surprised me too. But I don't believe it is antisemitism or racism that is at the core of it all.

There was a belief when Hamas made the first surprise attack on Israel (which was horrendous and despicable) that Iran possibly was behind it, or at the very least supporting Hamas in some way. And Israel is now responding exactly how they intended: a huge and unproportional response to what had happened to them. Gaza is now being decimated and that is what a lot of world is objecting to.  Its less to do with politics and more to do with basic humanity.

When, Netanyahu, Israels current leader, recently came back to power, many cringed. He is not a well-liked man to many, including Biden, who has had issues with him in the past.

Zero probably summed it up best in a previous post:

"The main responsible is Netanyahu and his extreme right government, represented by Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security (aka minister of chaos), the leader of the Otzma Yehudit, or Jewish Power hyper-nationalist far-right party, idelogicaly similar to make america great again hyper-nationalist republicans.

Similar to our maga republicans, they were busy fighting cultural wars, imaginary woke "threats" and whatnot, and worse, the democratic justice system, instead of paying attention to the real threats Israel was facing.
How could the minister of national security fail to identify the build-up, under his nose, of many thousands of rockets arsenal is beyond comprehension.

Paralells can be drawn to 9/11. But GWB may have the excuse that those attacks were unique and unprecedented.

Netanyahu has no such excuses and will go down in history as one of the most incompetent prime-ministers (drawing another parallel to his idelogical brother, trump, one of most incompetent american presidents)

Having said that, hamas' attack on civilians is an attrocity, no different than the russian attacks on Ukraine's civilians.
hamas killed hundreds of civilians attending a festival for peace, russia killed a sixth of the Hroza village inhabitants, attending the wake of a fallen soldier (horrific images below)

Both hamas and the russian government are terrorist organizations."


What we are left with is an extremely difficult and somewhat terrifying situation, especially now that many groups and countries across the world are responding exactly how Iran and Hamas possibly intended: that Palestinians are the victims, and Israel is the aggressor.

 

Yeah, and besides Jesus was a Jew!

1. He might be a Jew, but according to religion he is God. God who was born among the Jews. And because of the Jews, he was crucified. This resulted in punishment.
2. According to religion, the virgin birth occurred, which means Chr.ist was not a Jew.
 

Quote from: Annie2022 on October 26, 2023, 14:56

Palestinians are the victims, and Israel is the aggressor.

1. As far as I know, the Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel.
2. Anti-Semitism is very strong on the planet, so Jews will always be to blame.
3. Israel's actions are correct, this Hamas poses a constant threat, so it will be eliminated.
4. The Russians also pose a threat, and therefore must also be eliminated.

The axis of all world evil has already been named: China, russia and Iran.

Here we have a curve, not an axis!
Hungary, belarus, russia, Iran, Syria, China, North Korea

Countries that have recognized the State of Palestine:




Enough said

@Lizard
This is highly debatable.

Don't mix the Palestinians with the Arabs.

The Philistines originated from Crete/Aegean Sea and settled in a small area of what is today's Israel.
That land was subsequently colonized by Assyrians, Egyptians, Babylonians, Romans, Arabs, Mamlukes, Ottomans, and the British.

Remember that the Arab empire was a vast colonial empire emerging from tribes originating from the Arabian peninsula. They also colonized the lands belonging to the tribes of Israel and much more. There was never an Arab nation.
See the Arab colonial empire maximum extent below.

It's funny that you don't like Israeli "colonialism", you keep on moaning about the defunct Western "colonialism" (as you learned it from your Marxist history deeply engraved in your brain), and you are anti-American because of the same reasons (although the US was a colony itself). Still, you are against Ukraine's struggle for freedom from russian imperialism and colonialism.

A bit of consistency, one way or the other, would be advisable!

Edit: map with countries recognizing the modern state of Israel, below (including your country):

Quote from: Uncle Pete on October 26, 2023, 15:05

Yeah, and besides Jesus was a Jew!

1. He might be a Jew, but according to religion he is God. God who was born among the Jews. And because of the Jews, he was crucified. This resulted in punishment.
2. According to religion, the virgin birth occurred, which means Chr.ist was not a Jew.
 

You can debate, toss in theology and whatever other minor interpretations, such as church dogma. "Jesus (c. 6 to 4 BC � AD 30 or 33), also referred to as Jes.us Chr.ist (the forum has a funny way of censoring that one, Jeepers Creepers), Jesus of Nazareth, and many other names and titles, was a first-century Jewish preacher and religious leader."

Facts are facts. Religion is beliefs.

Anti-Semitism and being against genocide which Israeli Zionists are blatantly committing for decades against people of Palestine on their own land are two different things. They should peacefully accept that extermination of their children is the only way? Sure.

Billions of people and the majority of the worlds population support Palestine in their rightful goal for liberation and freedom on the land that was occupied by Europeans and given to foreign settlers imported from Europe.

There are certainly good arguments from recent history against both Israel and the Palestinian Arabs - no one has covered themselves with glory here.

However, your argumentation contradicts some real historical facts.

Unfortunately you are in good company with people like Greta Thunberg. To me it shows that some schooling is not necessarily harmful 

The Jews are historically entrenched in the region, even before BC. There have also been some Jewish state-like entities in the region throughout history.  The State of Israel was not established in the State of Palestine, but in the British protectorate after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, before that Mamlyuk Islamic State of Egypt, before that the Empire of Ayubid, etc. There was no Palestinian state here until 1988.

Historically, Palestine is not a state, but a region on the Mediterranean Sea that was populated by Arabs, Christians and Jews. The state of Palestine was proclaimed only in 1988 by the PLO and then disintegrated itself through the dispute between Hamas and Fatah. There have been no elections here since 2006.

If Hamas had actually attacked only military installations, that would have been understandable in the historical context. We know that they did not. With October 7, however, HAMAS itself has moved the conflict to another dimension and is therefore responsible for the current catastrophic situation.

And a dislike Russian imperialism at same level as i do American, British, French, Spanish, Dutch.... .

It doesn't look like. What you obviously dislike is Ukraine's fight AGAINST russian colonialism. You constantly found excuses for putin's colonial invasion of Ukraine.

And if you dislike those western colonial empires, you should also dislike the Arab colonialism and its consequences.

Check my previous post: Arab Palestinians are not the ancient Aegean Palestinians/Philistines, but Arab settlers and conquerors.

Quote from: Lizard on October 26, 2023, 17:52

Anti-Semitism and being against genocide which Israeli Zionists are blatantly committing for decades against people of Palestine on their own land are two different things. They should peacefully accept that extermination of their children is the only way? Sure.

Billions of people and the majority of the worlds population support Palestine in their rightful goal for liberation and freedom on the land that was occupied by Europeans and given to foreign settlers imported from Europe.

There are certainly good arguments from recent history against both Israel and the Palestinian Arabs - no one has covered themselves with glory here.

However, your argumentation contradicts some real historical facts.

Unfortunately you are in good company with people like Greta Thunberg. To me it shows that some schooling is not necessarily harmful 

The Jews are historically entrenched in the region, even before BC. There have also been some Jewish state-like entities in the region throughout history.  The State of Israel was not established in the State of Palestine, but in the British protectorate after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire, before that Mamlyuk Islamic State of Egypt, before that the Empire of Ayubid, etc. There was no Palestinian state here until 1988.

Historically, Palestine is not a state, but a region on the Mediterranean Sea that was populated by Arabs, Christians and Jews. The state of Palestine was proclaimed only in 1988 by the PLO and then disintegrated itself through the dispute between Hamas and Fatah. There have been no elections here since 2006.

If Hamas had actually attacked only military installations, that would have been understandable in the historical context. We know that they did not. With October 7, however, HAMAS itself has moved the conflict to another dimension and is therefore responsible for the current catastrophic situation.

The only one needs schooling is you 

Huge majority of people in Israel today are 2.-3. generation of European settlers.

HAMAS is not people of Palestine like Irish people were not IRA. And I don't recall Irish settlements bombed to the ground after actions IRA performed, do you ?

BTW, recent UN voting to stop all military actions there speaks clearly what people of the world want and how much Israeli actions are supported around the globe. 



 

Quote from: Zero Talent on October 27, 2023, 15:18

Quote from: Lizard on October 27, 2023, 12:01

And a dislike Russian imperialism at same level as i do American, British, French, Spanish, Dutch.... .

It doesn't look like. What you obviously dislike is Ukraine's fight AGAINST russian colonialism. You constantly found excuses for putin's colonial invasion of Ukraine.

And if you dislike those western colonial empires, you should also dislike the Arab colonialism and its consequences.

Check my previous post: Arab Palestinians are not the ancient Aegean Palestinians/Philistines, but Arab settlers and conquerors.

As I recall, you said leave the past lets talk whats going on now.

I don't see a word from you condemning the fact that Israeli killed more children in last 2 weeks than Putin in Ukraine and there are multiple post where I wrote against what he does calling him a psycho.

That, makes you a clear example of a hypocrite which values a child life by the citizenship on his birth certificate 

Nope.
Here you have it: I condemn from the bottom of my heart the killings of children and civilians by Israeli forces, even if provoked by hamas.
At the same time, hamas is a terrorist organization, and you should never justify their terror and killing of children and innocent civilians by referencing some selective colonial past.

I was only arguing against your Marxist view of the world, and lack of knowledge in the history of those lands.

I told you that the situation is highly debatable, but you said it's not.
"Not debatable at all", you said. 

Not debatable at all

Now you realize that the situation is highly debatable, indeed. You even debate it yourself.

This is progress! Good job!

Yes, this is what happened.... among other things.
Again this is your way of conveniently selecting events that support your opinion, while neglecting what's not. In other words, propaganda.
As I told you already, the history of that area is highly debatable.

Actually, the Hashemites attempted first to strike an alliance with British, pre-war, in 1914. The British refused any engagements against the Ottomans, who were then a friendly nation.

The Ottomans (the Young Turks) negociated both with the Germans and the British, trying to secure support against their biggest threat, russia. The Germans made the best offer and the Ottomans joined the Axis. Only then the British remembered the old offer made by the Hashemites, initiating the above mentioned correspondence.

Meanwhile, the Jihad against the French, British and russian colonial empires called by the Germans and the Ottomans had a strong appeal among Arabs.
Colonial Muslims responded to the sultan�s appeal in such distant places as the Australia and Singapore.
Moreover, also Indian Muslims appeared more inclined to support the Ottomans. This is why the British cancelled their initial assistance pledged to the Hashemites, fearing that the Indian Muslims will be driven to Jihad by outrage over Christian soldiers setting foot on the sacred land of the Hijaz.

The Bristish did something similar, rallying Jewish support through the Balfour Declaration.

Btw, by using your logic, you should rather blame Gavrilo Princip instead of the British, for all of this. 

Anyway, you should also add that besides England and France discussing how to divide the Ottoman Empire, there was another colonial empire, allied with them, russia, doing exactly the same.

russia's eyes were on Istanbul and the Bosphorus straights, attempting to fulfill Peter the Great's legacy left to his successors, to transform the Black Sea in a russian lake.

Something russia's current emperor, rest assured, is still pushing for. But for now, Ukraine is in his way.