Author Topic: UFOs now called UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon) Crowd Stories and photos. (Read 48711 times)

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #350 on:** July 31, 2023, 12:58 »

Quote from: Lowls on July 28, 2023, 10:03

It's been theorised by Bob Lazar. Now you can poo poo Bob Lazar unfortunately his testimony keeps coming true. Element 115 is now achievable.
His door entry hand measuring device can actually be bought on ebay from vintage sellers.
He did work at Los Alamos.

Many Poh Poh Lazar.

Stanton Friedman (the original Roswell guy) has attacked Lazars scientific credibility. Friedman is a UFO researcher and advocate. Friedman also researched Lazars claims of being a MIT Physics graduate. Lazar can't provide one item that would show he went to MIT or give the name of one person that he was classmates with, that could validate his story. The obvious claim is, the government removed all of his records. Yet, Lazar has no photos, no acquaintances, no one remembers him, no class photos, no yearbook, no phone book, and a long list of things that would exist to prove Lazars claims.

What records research has found is that Lazar wasn't living in Cambridge, MA, and filed for bankruptcy at the same time, which Lazar has given various dates.

If he had element 115 it's not the same as the real element 115. When asked he has had various answers. One is he lost it, while the other is if he did, he wouldn't admit it.

My simple definition of Lazar and his claims is, slippery.

http://www.classicufo.com/blog/2013/02/the-bob-lazar-conundrum-is-there-any-truth-to-lazars-claims/

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #351 on:** July 31, 2023, 21:53 »

Quote from: Lowls on July 27, 2023, 16:59

I get what you're saying. And it is all incorrect. You are missing the history of each of the pilots. The history of grusch and the procedures of Congress. You are missing large pieces of the puzzle but asking for answers. Unfortunately those answers require effort on your part to put the hearings into the jaw dropping context that they were. Now I have already explained many of these points in previous posts but unfortunately either you didn't read and watch them or you did and don't believe them. But you know this will happen now whether you believe it or not. At this point it is a train that is coming down the line at us and no matter what your stand point its going to keep coming. Nothing will stop it now. Nothing. This was historic and its becoming more and more obvious that is is entirely meticulously orchestrated.

There will now be a flood of whistle blowers who are going to provide proof to congress regarding David Grushes claims which while you state are made up or hearsay whatever... they are anything but. They are all very true. They are fact no ambiguity. So you can either watch the pilots testimony or recollections online while you walk the dog or wash up or whatever or ... don't. It matters not. It's coming. This has never, ever, happened before. I've followed this area for decades and it has never ever gone down like this. But I get that for you, it's like.having to learn how to use the Internet for the first time.

Nothing I said was incorrect - all of the "evidence" presented so far has been people saying they know somebody who's seen something or someone who saw something they couldn't explain. And they can't say anything more because it's classified. I'm sure there are many pilots who have seen things they can't explain, but "I don't know what that was" does not equal "aliens". I agree this level of openness has never happened before but so far it's all added up to a whole lot of nothing. All they have to do to prove it is bring out one of the dozens of alien spacecraft that are supposedly in storage somewhere or show us a body. And by "us" I mean the worldwide scientific community who can make an independent evaluation of authenticity. Short of that, hearsay is what Grush has been providing, not me.

The land area of the Russian Federation is about twice that of the US. If aliens are crash landing randomly all over Earth, then the Russians should have twice as many artifacts as the US. Yet it seems in Russia all the "evidence" of aliens is about as solid as in the US - somebody saw something they can't explain. Not very convincing.

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #352 on:** July 31, 2023, 22:19 »

Quote from: LDV81 on July 27, 2023, 17:05

Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on July 27, 2023, 16:34
From what I've heard of the congressional hearings so far they have been vastly underwhelming. It seems to be three "whistleblowers" who all believe that we have been visited by aliens, and at least one of them said they know 40 other guys who swear on their grandmothers' graves that they have seen alien craft and/or biologicals. And that is it - no proof of any kind, no documentation, no testimony from any of the people who supposedly have seen these things except second- or third-hand reports. And they can't say any more because it's classified. So what is the point? It all seems like a monumental waste of time to me.
So, you are relying on hearsay? Watch the hearing yourself. Documentation, including the names of involved people and addresses, has been provided to the Inspector General. Additional details have been provided behind closed doors, as I understand it. A guy who had been conducting an official investigation in this field testified under oath before the Congress. Do you grasp the magnitude of this event? That investigation had been his job, he just presented his findings in the Congress, under oath.

I've seen enough of it. Hearsay is what Grush has provided, not me. Looks like Congress is going to have a special investigation so maybe more will come out that way. However, I suspect none of these mythical alien craft will appear. I have no doubt the people testifying believe what they are saying, they just haven't provided any solid proof.

Why is all of this confined to the US? What about Canada, China. Brazil, Russia and other countries with large land areas? Surely they must have been the recipients of alien spacecraft - many more than the US - yet why have we not seen aliens rolled out in those countries? When people in other countries provide "evidence", it's always of the same type - somebody saw something they can't explain. Nothing tangible. Surely the US military couldn't classify materials collected in all those other countries, could they?

Quote from: LDV81 on July 27, 2023, 17:05

If this was some kind of farce, some kind of prank, then you, dear Americans, have some serious issues in your country

You haven't figured that out yet? We have much more serious problems than aliens - a large part of the population thinks the last election was stolen, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary (and none to support their conclusion) and they support someone for President as a supposed champion of democracy who's stated goal is to become a fascist dictator. Aliens are the least of our problems.

Quote from: LDV81 on July 27, 2023, 17:05

[I have a feeling that even if a giant UFO landed in front of the White House and aliens came out, many denialists would still deny it, because it doesn't fit into their world view. It would be "a trick of the light", or the infamous "swamp gas".

That is where you are dead wrong. Those of us who are skeptical of alien contact are not that way because of a world view but because of a lack of evidence. Provide even one alien craft or a body of an extraterrestrial that can be verified by independent scientific analysis and most of us will accept it. But if the only "evidence" is that somebody saw something they can't explain then that doesn't cut it. We will see what comes out of the continuing congressional hearings but I wouldn't hold my breath that they will uncover anything substantive - I just don't think there is anything more to provide.

Lowls · « **Reply #353 on:** August 01, 2023, 05:30 »

Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on July 31, 2023, 22:19

Quote from: LDV81 on July 27, 2023, 17:05
Quote from: sgoodwin4813 on July 27, 2023, 16:34
From what I've heard of the congressional hearings so far they have been vastly underwhelming. It seems to be three "whistleblowers" who all believe that we have been visited by aliens, and at least one of them said they know 40 other guys who swear on their grandmothers' graves that they have seen alien craft and/or biologicals. And that is it - no proof of any kind, no documentation, no testimony from any of the people who supposedly have seen these things except second- or third-hand reports. And they can't say any more because it's classified. So what is the point? It all seems like a monumental waste of time to me.
So, you are relying on hearsay? Watch the hearing yourself. Documentation, including the names of involved people and addresses, has been provided to the Inspector General. Additional details have been provided behind closed doors, as I understand it. A guy who had been conducting an official investigation in this field testified under oath before the Congress. Do you grasp the magnitude of this event? That investigation had been his job, he just presented his findings in the Congress, under oath.

I've seen enough of it. Hearsay is what Grush has provided, not me. Looks like Congress is going to have a special investigation so maybe more will come out that way. However, I suspect none of these mythical alien craft will appear. I have no doubt the people testifying believe what they are saying, they just haven't provided any solid proof.

Why is all of this confined to the US? What about Canada, China. Brazil, Russia and other countries with large land areas? Surely they must have been the recipients of alien spacecraft - many more than the US - yet why have we not seen aliens rolled out in those countries? When people in other countries provide "evidence", it's always of the same type - somebody saw something they can't explain. Nothing tangible. Surely the US military couldn't classify materials collected in all those other countries, could they?

Quote from: LDV81 on July 27, 2023, 17:05
If this was some kind of farce, some kind of prank, then you, dear Americans, have some serious issues in your country

You haven't figured that out yet? We have much more serious problems than aliens - a large part of the population thinks the last election was stolen, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary (and none to support their conclusion) and they support someone for President as a supposed champion of democracy who's stated goal is to become a fascist dictator. Aliens are the least of our problems.

Quote from: LDV81 on July 27, 2023, 17:05
[I have a feeling that even if a giant UFO landed in front of the White House and aliens came out, many denialists would still deny it, because it doesn't fit into their world view. It would be "a trick of the light", or the infamous "swamp gas".

That is where you are dead wrong. Those of us who are skeptical of alien contact are not that way because of a world view but because of a lack of evidence. Provide even one alien craft or a body of an extraterrestrial that can be verified by independent scientific analysis and most of us will accept it. But if the only "evidence" is that somebody saw something they can't explain then that doesn't cut it. We will see what comes out of the continuing congressional hearings but I wouldn't hold my breath that they will uncover anything substantive - I just don't think there is anything more to provide.

I'm going to quote you here but also respond here to your response above to save pillars of quote.

You are incorrect I am afraid. Totally and completely.
Grusch has given public testimony under oath. That is evidence. As has Graves and Fravor. They aren't the only ones that have given testimony either. More ro come on that.
6 witnesses were due to testify. But 3 were encouraged not to either by their current employers or other means. This is being investigated.

Regarding Grusch and hearsay please stop saying that. His testimony is not hearsay. That's a legal term as well as social. He bypassed the legal issue of hearsay because he is a witness himself.

When he gave testimony under oath he testified to seeing documents and reports pertaining to crash retreival programmes and non human biologics and despite insincere mocking by some not just here, about rabbits and dolphins, he didnt mean that for certain. We don't get a congressional hearing for earth based animals.

*********Those reports were provided, supplied, given, shown, handed, passed, issued, etc .. to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community *********

At this point he found them credible and urgent and he has gone on record stating firmly that this does NOT mean threats to Grusch as part of his whistle blower complaint. That's dealt with by another department.

Credible and Urgent.

At this point your opinion, mine and anyone else's becomes irrelevant. It doesn't matter about people hand wringing. It doesn't matter if they believe. It doesn't matter what Joe Biden thinks. It doesn't matter what the press say. Because the IGIC hit the big red button and the sh#t hit the fan with such a thud it sent it through a wall.

Since then so much has happened. So hand wring away lol its irrelevant. When you state nothings happened again you are incorrect. I'm not going to list it. It's very public but not if you rely on MSM. There is a very obvious lack of reporting anything. In fact Sky news ONLY reported Kirkpatricks retort. That's it. Nothing more.

But I believe what is happening next is getting Grusch in a skiff. The issue at present is there is a significant bun fight going on trying to get clearances to get him in a skif and the Pentagon fighting tooth and nail to stop it.

Is that what happens when it's sweety wrappers, Bart Simpson balloons, light fittings and pan lids?

This was the latest attempt ... wheel out a stooge ...

Republican Mike Turner gives an interview to Fox news. It's all about China until she asks him about UAP hearings ... 5.40 onwards. He claims David Grusch doesn't know what he is talking about 😳 lol. But then Senator Mike turner's financial records were quickly sought and who are among his largest contributors

https://youtu.be/Lz9FD6zJd5w

Lockhead Martin
BAE systems
Rathion to name a few.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #354 on:** August 01, 2023, 11:41 »

Quote from: cascoly on May 22, 2023, 18:37

Quote from: Uncle Pete on May 22, 2023, 12:02
...
However in all fairness, to the other side: Absence of evidence in not evidence of absence.
...
However : Absence of evidence of an extraordinary claim is not worth considering..

It's just logic and I believe you will agree. No one can prove that something claimed, does not actually exist. But as we have both tried to explain, someone making a claim, is the one with the burden of proof that their claim is real.

No one can prove something is not real. But that's what the UFO believers keep repeating. Prove it's not real! Can't be done.

I see no answer to the complication that Stanton Friedman called Lazar a complete fraud. Who do we believe? Friedman the scientist behind Roswell and the detailed investigation, or a questionable, inconsistent source for an ever changing story of the US Government backward engineered space craft and has the help of aliens from Zeta Reticuli?

And keeping things light, to my, where is the Bermuda Triangle question? Can someone just give me the general boundaries? Here's the accepted answer:

The Bermuda Triangle is a large area of ocean between Florida, Puerto Rico, and Bermuda. Over the last few centuries, it's thought that dozens of ships and planes have disappeared under mysterious circumstances in the area, earning it the nickname "The Devil's Triangle."

People have even gone so far as to speculate that it's an area of extra-terrestrial activity or that there is some bizarre natural scientific cause for the region to be hazardous

When checking the disappearances, wrecks and events, the Bermuda Triangle is no more dangerous than any other oceans on Earth. An interesting statistic for those who wonder, during the same time frame (the mid-1940s to mid-1980s), many more small planes have crashed on the US mainland than have disappeared in the Bermuda Triangle.

Lowls · « **Reply #355 on:** August 02, 2023, 01:55 »

Attempt Two ... as predicted wheel out the second stooge. Renowned debunker without any proof who regularly features to give expert testimony outside his field of expertise and does not believe in other civilisations traversing the universe
Seth Shostak - who is the Senior astronomer for the SETI institute. Search for Extra Terrestrial Inteligence.

"SHREDS WHISTLE BLOWERS CLAIMS"

One wonders what clearances Seth is going to imply he has this time.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/seti-institute-shreds-ufo-whistleblowers-210032638.html

Well they claim he is a real alien hunter who very much believes in aliens. Clearly they haven't followed Seths continuous efforts to claim otherwise.

Justanotherphotographer · « **Reply #356 on:** August 02, 2023, 05:57 »

"Oh No, Ross and Carrie" podcast will be doing a break down of the hearings in the next couple of weeks. Looking forward to a good laugh.

Big Toe · « **Reply #357 on:** August 02, 2023, 06:20 »

Quote from: Lowls on July 28, 2023, 10:03

Perpetual motion machines - planets?

Planets are not perpetual motion machines. They lose energy when they do work like sending out gravitons or creating tidal forces.

Big Toe · « **Reply #358 on:** August 02, 2023, 06:30 »

Quote from: LDV81 on July 28, 2023, 07:58

Quote from: Big Toe on July 28, 2023, 05:40
You can theorize about loopholess in the theory of relativity all you want, but I don't think they exist and in the end it is just wishful thinking that there may be any, much less loopholes that make it feasible for an object the size of a star ship to exceed the speed of light and that without using forces that would destroy the starship and kill the travellers.

Imagine explaining to people living 500 years ago the idea of a plane, made of heavy steel, taking onboard hundreds of people and flying them to the other side of the world within hours. They would say similar things to you: "it is not possible, it is insane, only birds and insects can fly because they are lightweight etc." That idea would be beyond their paradigms. And there you have people like Leonardo da Vinci, who thought flying machines were possible. He could conceive things beyond the current paradigms. Most likely, he failed to build a working flying machine, not to mention something like a modern plane, but he was right about the idea of flying in a machine. He was a visionary, even if his contemporaries would laugh at some of his ideas.

This is not at all comparable. 500 years ago people had basically no knowledge at of phyiscs as we understand it.

Since we began to really accumulate scientific knowledge, new knowledge was in most cases incremental, not really fundamentally replacing old knowledge, at least not basic knowledge like how things move. Relativity did not significantly change our understanding about how things move at non-relativistic speeds and quantum mechanics did not change how macroscopic objects behave. It is very unlikely that future discoveries will change the fact that object with rest mass cannot reach or exceed the speed of light.

LDV81 · « **Reply #359 on:** August 02, 2023, 06:54 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 06:30

Quote from: LDV81 on July 28, 2023, 07:58
Quote from: Big Toe on July 28, 2023, 05:40
You can theorize about loopholess in the theory of relativity all you want, but I don't think they exist and in the end it is just wishful thinking that there may be any, much less loopholes that make it feasible for an object the size of a star ship to exceed the speed of light and that without using forces that would destroy the starship and kill the travellers.

Imagine explaining to people living 500 years ago the idea of a plane, made of heavy steel, taking onboard hundreds of people and flying them to the other side of the world within hours. They would say similar things to you: "it is not possible, it is insane, only birds and insects can fly because they are lightweight etc." That idea would be beyond their paradigms. And there you have people like Leonardo da Vinci, who thought flying machines were possible. He could conceive things beyond the current paradigms. Most likely, he failed to build a working flying machine, not to mention something like a modern plane, but he was right about the idea of flying in a machine. He was a visionary, even if his contemporaries would laugh at some of his ideas.

This is not at all comparable. 500 years ago people had basically no knowledge at of phyiscs as we understand it.

Since we began to really accumulate scientific knowledge, new knowledge was in most cases incremental, not really fundamentally replacing old knowledge, at least not basic knowledge like how things move. Relativity did not significantly change our understanding about how things move at non-relativistic speeds and quantum mechanics did not change how macroscopic objects behave. It is very unlikely that future discoveries will change the fact that object with rest mass cannot reach or exceed the speed of light.

It is outrageously arrogant to reject the possibility of any significant paradigm shifts. A classic Plato's Cave attitude...

We only started to accumulate knowledge that can explain a tiny part of the wider reality that evolution has made accessible to us. Beyond that, we don't know much. The model of metaphysical materialism can never explain how certain configurations of atoms gain self-awareness or perceive qualia. That is the end of the road for materialism.
Just watch some interviews with Donald Hoffman or read stuff published by the scientists from the Essentia Foundation to realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.

Big Toe · « **Reply #360 on:** August 02, 2023, 07:50 »

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 06:54

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 06:30
Quote from: LDV81 on July 28, 2023, 07:58
Quote from: Big Toe on July 28, 2023, 05:40
You can theorize about loopholess in the theory of relativity all you want, but I don't think they exist and in the end it is just wishful thinking that there may be any, much less loopholes that make it feasible for an object the size of a star ship to exceed the speed of light and that without using forces that would destroy the starship and kill the travellers.

Imagine explaining to people living 500 years ago the idea of a plane, made of heavy steel, taking onboard hundreds of people and flying them to the other side of the world within hours. They would say similar things to you: "it is not possible, it is insane, only birds and insects can fly because they are lightweight etc." That idea would be beyond their paradigms. And there you have people like Leonardo da Vinci, who thought flying machines were possible. He could conceive things beyond the current paradigms. Most likely, he failed to build a working flying machine, not to mention something like a modern plane, but he was right about the idea of flying in a machine. He was a visionary, even if his contemporaries would laugh at some of his ideas.

This is not at all comparable. 500 years ago people had basically no knowledge at of phyiscs as we understand it.

Since we began to really accumulate scientific knowledge, new knowledge was in most cases incremental, not really fundamentally replacing old knowledge, at least not basic knowledge like how things move. Relativity did not significantly change our understanding about how things move at non-relativistic speeds and quantum mechanics did not change how macroscopic objects behave. It is very unlikely that future discoveries will change the fact that object with rest mass cannot reach or exceed the speed of light.

It is outrageously arrogant to reject the possibility of any significant paradigm shifts. A classic Plato's Cave attitude...

I did not reject the possibility of significant paradigm shifts at all.

Relativity was a paradigm shift, but it did not change how we calculate the speed of cars or the focres that drive them.

Quantum mechanics was a paradigm shift, but it did not change our understandig how macroscopic objects behave.

There will be likely be further paradigm shifts. For example. the standard model of particle physic has far too many unexplained constants to be the last word and quantum mechanics and gravitation have yet to be unified. The theories that will answer that will change our understanding of the universe, but it is still very unlikely that they will allow objects with rest mass to reach or exceed the speed of light. Please note that I wrote "very unlikely", not "completely impossible". Perhaps science will surprise us all, but for the time being, I cannot take seriously any notion that relies on star ships exceeding the speed of light. Unless it takes place in a fictional universe.

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 06:54

We only started to accumulate knowledge that can explain a tiny part of the wider reality that evolution has made accessible to us. Beyond that, we don't know much. The model of metaphysical materialism can never explain how certain configurations of atoms gain self-awareness or perceive qualia. That is the end of the road for materialism.
Just watch some interviews with Donald Hoffman or read stuff published by the scientists from the Essentia Foundation to realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.

I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

LDV81 · « **Reply #361 on:** August 02, 2023, 08:52 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50

I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #362 on:** August 02, 2023, 09:22 »

Quote from: Lowls on July 27, 2023, 03:20

This very contradiction and lack of transparency is what led to a Chinese spy balloons entering our air space. The lack of action by the Biden administration cause widespread fear and confusion and only after (some) days and only after it had travelled the entire continental United States were two jets deployed to shoot it down. This flip flopping ... (from memory) she goes on to say change is needed and with that she yields back her time.

This is the policy of the Democrats, the policy of ostriches. The Democrats have been unable to give Ukraine fighter jets and missiles for two years now.

stoker2014 · « **Reply #363 on:** August 02, 2023, 09:24 »

In short, some gossip and rumors. When will society be shown at least one humanoid or at least one extraterrestrial ship?

Big Toe · « **Reply #364 on:** August 02, 2023, 09:42 »

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 08:52

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50
I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

I feel free to call out obvious nonsense and I'm not inclined to get in an argument about his guys notions, because if you reject the concept of reality itself, then we have no common ground and any argument is futile.

LDV81 · « **Reply #365 on:** August 02, 2023, 09:46 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 09:42

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 08:52
Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50
I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

I feel free to call out obvious nonsense and I'm not inclined to get in an argument about his guys notions, because if you reject the concept of reality itself, then we have no common ground and any argument is futile.

Where does he reject the concept of reality? Hoffman never did it.
You just assume that your perceptions are the reality. And he has evidence and a mathematical model supporting that it doesn't have to be the case.
There is a reality beyond the perceptions, but the perceptions are not an accurate image of the reality.

Big Toe · « **Reply #366 on:** August 02, 2023, 10:04 »

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 09:46

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 09:42
Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 08:52
Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50
I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

I feel free to call out obvious nonsense and I'm not inclined to get in an argument about his guys notions, because if you reject the concept of reality itself, then we have no common ground and any argument is futile.

Where does he reject the concept of reality? Hoffman never did it.

It is even in the title of one of his books: "The case against reality"

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 09:46

You just assume that your perceptions are the reality. And he has evidence and a mathematical model supporting that it doesn't have to be the case.
There is a reality beyond the perceptions, but the perceptions are not an accurate image of the reality.

You can have mathematical models about everything. It does not means that they have anything to do with realtity.

And I know that we cannot directly perceive the whole reality, as for example we can only perceive electro-magnetic radiation of certain wave lengths, but from what I understand, this is not what he means and he rejects also what we can measure with scientific instruments as reality.

LDV81 · « **Reply #367 on:** August 02, 2023, 10:17 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 10:04

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 09:46
Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 09:42
Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 08:52
Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50
I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

I feel free to call out obvious nonsense and I'm not inclined to get in an argument about his guys notions, because if you reject the concept of reality itself, then we have no common ground and any argument is futile.

Where does he reject the concept of reality? Hoffman never did it.

It is even in the title of one of his books: "The case against reality"

LOL. As the saying goes, never judge the book by the cover. The title is catchy and provoking, but he never rejected the concept of reality. But whatever reality is, it is most likely not what you perceive. All your life are basically perceptions...

LDV81 · « **Reply #368 on:** August 02, 2023, 10:37 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 10:04

And I know that we cannot directly perceive the whole reality, as for example we can only perceive electro-magnetic radiation of certain wave lengths, but from what I understand, this is not what he means and he rejects also what we can measure with scientific instruments as reality.

Whatever you measure with scientific instruments and the instruments themselves are filtered through the screen of our perceptions. Scientific instruments didn't exist at the beginning of evolution. By the time we invented them, evolution had already given us the virtual reality headset or the desktop interface as he calls it. So, the instruments we create are part of that interface, and do not exist outside of it. You can measure aspects of the perceived reality, but the act of measurement will be a perception in itself. Evolution showed us only the categories of things important for our survival. Anything else is hidden. It is difficult to build instruments for aspects of reality that you can't even imagine.

Big Toe · « **Reply #369 on:** August 02, 2023, 10:58 »

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 10:37

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 10:04
And I know that we cannot directly perceive the whole reality, as for example we can only perceive electro-magnetic radiation of certain wave lengths, but from what I understand, this is not what he means and he rejects also what we can measure with scientific instruments as reality.

Whatever you measure with scientific instruments and the instruments themselves are filtered through the screen of our perceptions. Scientific instruments didn't exist at the beginning of evolution. By the time we invented them, evolution had already given us the virtual reality headset or the desktop interface as he calls it. So, the instruments we create are part of that interface, and do not exist outside of it. You can measure aspects of the perceived reality, but the act of measurement will be a perception in itself. Evolution showed us only the categories of things important for our survival. Anything else is hidden.

That's what I meant. As long as you believe in stuff like that, we have no common ground, as we live in different realities.

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 10:37

It is difficult to build instruments for aspects of reality that you can't perceive.

It is not that hard to build an instrument that can detect X-rays.

Or an instrument that can receive radio waves. They are called radios and have been quite popular since their invention.

LDV81 · « **Reply #370 on:** August 02, 2023, 11:07 »

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 10:58

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 10:37
Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 10:04
And I know that we cannot directly perceive the whole reality, as for example we can only perceive electro-magnetic radiation of certain wave lengths, but from what I understand, this is not what he means and he rejects also what we can measure with scientific instruments as reality.

Whatever you measure with scientific instruments and the instruments themselves are filtered through the screen of our perceptions. Scientific instruments didn't exist at the beginning of evolution. By the time we invented them, evolution had already given us the virtual reality headset or the desktop interface as he calls it. So, the instruments we create are part of that interface, and do not exist outside of it. You can measure aspects of the perceived reality, but the act of measurement will be a perception in itself. Evolution showed us only the categories of things important for our survival. Anything else is hidden.

That's what I meant. As long as you believe in stuff like that, we have no common ground, as we live in different relaties.

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 10:37
It is difficult to build instruments for aspects of reality that you can't perceive.

It is not that hard to build an instrument that can detect X-rays.

Or an instrument that can receive radio waves. They are called radios and have been quite popular since their invention.

I corrected it to "aspects of reality that you can't even imagine" - as this is what I meant. First, someone had to imagine those concepts, and only then the instruments could be built.
And that goes back to earlier posts and imagining things beyond the current paradigm.

cascoly · « **Reply #371 on:** August 02, 2023, 11:53 »

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 08:52

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50
I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

as opposed to your statement yesterday-- "It is outrageously arrogant to reject the possibility of any significant paradigm shifts. A classic Plato's Cave attitude..."

Lowls · « **Reply #372 on:** August 02, 2023, 13:12 »

President Obama discusses ufos through the years

Jimmy Kimel 2015 - https://youtu.be/EYzRY2XpLBk

James Cordon 2021 - https://youtu.be/xp6Ph5iTIgc

Always humour and levity but there were two ocassions where he didn't laugh and made it clear initially or overtly that it wasn't a joke.

Ellen 2016 - https://youtu.be/rZnXbPZ6R3w

Steven Colbert 2020 - https://youtu.be/V-Q8MFjlQ2Y 9.45 onwards

Lowls · « **Reply #373 on:** August 03, 2023, 07:04 »

Captain Kirk

Actor William Shatner gives his opinion about the latest UAP hearings. Rediculous he says ... https://youtu.be/CbL6iRkTvz0

William Shatner the "singer" ... apparently ... Do not operate heavy machinery, or you are a person of a nervous disposition or if you are suffering mental health issues. Going where no man has gone before, with the hope that he may not find his way back I give you the one, the only William Shatner and Rocket Man

https://youtu.be/8wI4jMxveyI

alan b traehern · « **Reply #374 on:** August 04, 2023, 05:57 »

Quote from: Lowls on August 03, 2023, 07:04

Captain Kirk

Actor William Shatner gives his opinion about the latest UAP hearings. Rediculous he says ... https://youtu.be/CbL6iRkTvz0

William Shatner the "singer" ... apparently ... Do not operate heavy machinery, or you are a person of a nervous disposition or if you are suffering mental health issues. Going where no man has gone before, with the hope that he may not find his way back I give you the one, the only William Shatner and Rocket Man

https://youtu.be/8wI4jMxveyI

More of your personal attacks and insults for anybody who doesn't agree with you. But you are hurt if anybody disagrees with your brainwashed tripe.

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