Author Topic: UFOs now called UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomenon) Crowd Stories and photos. (Read 48430 times)

alan b traehern · « **Reply #600 on:** January 16, 2024, 08:58 »

Quote from: LDV81 on January 14, 2024, 09:32

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 14, 2024, 07:14
Quote from: LDV81 on January 13, 2024, 14:09
Quote from: alan b traehern on January 13, 2024, 11:10
Another phony pseudoscience story is deflated. Pop go the aliens.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/they-are-not-aliens-peru-officials-debunk-claims-that-figures-are-extraterrestrials/ar-AA1mTjPM?OCID=ansmsnnews11
"The conclusion is simple: they are dolls assembled with bones of animals from this planet, with modern synthetic glues, therefore they were not assembled during pre-Hispanic times," Estrada said. "They are not extraterrestrials; they are not aliens."

In the light of the recent events, that story and your post are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT and uninteresting. Red herring.
In other news, yesterday it didn't snow in Morocco.

I thought you would be against lies, deception and coverup. Instead you try to defend the science fiction fantasy, fake news about alien bodies. This is over but another claim or fake will replace it. There are no alien corpses, no photos, no evidence, every. It is completely relevant to the UFO alien cult that will believe any trash fake news and spread it like it's real. Don't you have any integrity or standards in your search for the truth?

I suggest you sharpen your reading-with-understanding skills and work on logical reasoning.

You have built a strawman and now you are burning it. Where did I write that the mummies were real? Did any of the serious people working in the field (Nolan, Elizondo, Grusch, Mellon, Coulthard) even picked up the story? No, they avoided it, perhaps because they knew it was a distraction. Who cares about the dolls when there is Grusch?

"in the light of recent events" = an investigator working for the US government had made some very serious and specific claims about a cover-up and more. On Friday, the Inspector General informed the Congress Committee about his findings based on the evidence provided to him by Grusch. After the briefing, Congressmen said "Grusch is legit", "Grusch's claims have merit".

And that is the real story, not some mummies. The briefing is a FACT. It is a scandal that many mainstream media chose to cover the mummies and remained silent about the implications of the briefing. You pick some facts that fit into your denialist worldview and choose not to see the real story.

You have swallowed the red herring that most likely was thrown to the denialist crowd as a distraction. Bon appétit.

I wrote to the forum, not to you. Maybe you can tell me, what do you think of Bob Lazar, Billy Meier, Ed Walters, George Adamski, David Icke, Jonathan Reed, and Steven Greer? How about Roswell, Ray Santilli and the alien autopsy? Or are you only going with Grusch from now on and ignoring the long history of fakes and frauds.

LDV81 · « **Reply #601 on:** January 16, 2024, 12:03 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 16, 2024, 08:58

I wrote to the forum, not to you. Maybe you can tell me, what do you think of Bob Lazar, Billy Meier, Ed Walters, George Adamski, David Icke, Jonathan Reed, and Steven Greer? How about Roswell, Ray Santilli and the alien autopsy? Or are you only going with Grusch from now on and ignoring the long history of fakes and frauds.

As I said, please work on your logical reasoning skills. What you present here is a classic case of whataboutism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Maybe some, or all, of those people were frauds, maybe there were some nuggets of truth in their claims, I honestly don't know. Some are suspicious.
But whatever they claimed is absolutely irrelevant to the person of Grusch. They don't matter. All it takes is one single confirmed case and the whole denialism crumbles like a house of cards.

Grusch is an investigator tasked with this job by the US government. He did present evidence to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community - Thomas Monheim. Based on that evidence he briefed Congressmen about his findings. Coming out of the briefing, they said "Grusch's claims have merit", "Grusch is legit".

These are facts, for crying out loud.

Another fact is that a lobby in the House fought hard (and won) against the Schumer amendment, which had been passed earlier in the Senate. It is logical to assume that there is some struggle in the circles of power; some are for disclosure, others are against it.

Now, can I say with 100% certainty that what Grusch claims is true? No, I cannot, because I have no means to verify that information myself. And that is OK.

But if you think that Grusch doesn't say the truth, the IGIC told lies to the Congress Committe, then you must deal with one very serious question and that question is:

W*T*F is going on???

Escaping that question is intellectual laziness and mediocrity. If you think that there is something suspicious going behind the curtain, then there you go: that is a conspiracy theory, too.

Lowls · « **Reply #602 on:** January 16, 2024, 12:33 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 16, 2024, 08:48

Quote from: Lowls on January 15, 2024, 03:58
Quote from: cascoly on January 14, 2024, 18:07
Quote from: LDV81 on January 13, 2024, 14:07
...

The heck, even if only some part of Grusch's claims are true, it is a gamechanger, and the denialist worldview crumbles like a house of cards.

not sure who you're referring to as 'denialists', but those critiquing here have never said there are no ET just that no conclusiive evidence has been presented yet.

No you and others have repeatedly called it nonsense, make believe, and worse whilst denigrating the evidence and testimony given by serving military and civilian alike.

Which is why when you see this reported and investigated you'll see they always turn to you, Pete and gang for advice and confirmation instead of experts military or otherwise. Your name crops up regularly along with Petes and Annie's and all the other denialists that have contributed regularly here. Thank goodness we have you.
The little girl has soiled her nappy again, maybe you should check with the doctor for that frothing at the mouth and drooling problem. Something here smells like a pile of hot dung.

That's mature and relevant to the thread.

Lowls · « **Reply #603 on:** January 16, 2024, 13:15 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 16, 2024, 08:58

Quote from: LDV81 on January 14, 2024, 09:32
Quote from: alan b traehern on January 14, 2024, 07:14
Quote from: LDV81 on January 13, 2024, 14:09
Quote from: alan b traehern on January 13, 2024, 11:10
Another phony pseudoscience story is deflated. Pop go the aliens.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/they-are-not-aliens-peru-officials-debunk-claims-that-figures-are-extraterrestrials/ar-AA1mTjPM?OCID=ansmsnnews11
"The conclusion is simple: they are dolls assembled with bones of animals from this planet, with modern synthetic glues, therefore they were not assembled during pre-Hispanic times," Estrada said. "They are not extraterrestrials; they are not aliens."

In the light of the recent events, that story and your post are COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT and uninteresting. Red herring.
In other news, yesterday it didn't snow in Morocco.

I thought you would be against lies, deception and coverup. Instead you try to defend the science fiction fantasy, fake news about alien bodies. This is over but another claim or fake will replace it. There are no alien corpses, no photos, no evidence, every. It is completely relevant to the UFO alien cult that will believe any trash fake news and spread it like it's real. Don't you have any integrity or standards in your search for the truth?

I suggest you sharpen your reading-with-understanding skills and work on logical reasoning.

You have built a strawman and now you are burning it. Where did I write that the mummies were real? Did any of the serious people working in the field (Nolan, Elizondo, Grusch, Mellon, Coulthard) even picked up the story? No, they avoided it, perhaps because they knew it was a distraction. Who cares about the dolls when there is Grusch?

"in the light of recent events" = an investigator working for the US government had made some very serious and specific claims about a cover-up and more. On Friday, the Inspector General informed the Congress Committee about his findings based on the evidence provided to him by Grusch. After the briefing, Congressmen said "Grusch is legit", "Grusch's claims have merit".

And that is the real story, not some mummies. The briefing is a FACT. It is a scandal that many mainstream media chose to cover the mummies and remained silent about the implications of the briefing. You pick some facts that fit into your denialist worldview and choose not to see the real story.

You have swallowed the red herring that most likely was thrown to the denialist crowd as a distraction. Bon appétit.

I wrote to the forum, not to you. Maybe you can tell me, what do you think of Bob Lazar, Billy Meier, Ed Walters, George Adamski, David Icke, Jonathan Reed, and Steven Greer? How about Roswell, Ray Santilli and the alien autopsy? Or are you only going with Grusch from now on and ignoring the long history of fakes and frauds.

The thing is ma'am you can't lump them all together as fakes and frauds because it doesn't work like that over the span of time you are talking about involving these people. Of those mentioned that I specifically know alot about

Greer - was great is now loony tunes but he did bring a lot and still does, members of military organisations, high and low ranking to the table with their testimony. He's loony tunes because he also takes money and goes out into the wilderness waving torches and lasers around and claims to call down aliens. So he isn't fake he exists and has done great things and also hilariously stupid things.

Santilli - real although his autopsy is fake by his own admission and has been proven as such for decades. He is holding on to something though which if you've researched him he may wheel out. It's unlikely anyone will believe him but you take each detail as it comes.

Roswell is certainly real all day long. All day long. It wasn't project mogul and it wasn't a weather balloon. In fact it's looking more and more like the genesis of this whole saga. I won't even get into Roswell because its already been verified and more to come on that when it comes.

Lazar - again subjective. Those who've investigated him have pulled up for and against arguments. However if you read skeptical accounts they avoid certain facts. If you fall on the urologists side same. Bob did work at LA he did take Geroge knapp out there and he did know everyone. But what details aren't often mentioned.
LA claimed to George Knapp that he worked there and if he wrote to them they'd send his resume. So George did. And he called them and wrote again and eventually have it one last shot and then they said he didnt work there.

Then George found his name and number in the LA labs phone book. So confronted with this they admitted he did work there but all he was involved with was collecting people's radiation badges. This is funny because that's quite an important job and wouod require qualifications they say he doesn't have. He also recalled a device used for security that scanned bones. This was also debunked by LA. Until Corbell found one for sale years later. And you can search for that yourself but it literally does what Lazar said it did back in the day in interviews. So Lazar you pay your money and takes your choice.

It doesn't matter if you go through them all because Grusch is a different ball game. And this isn't being investigated by a goofball on some weekly show with bad music and graphics. This is being investigated by the ICIG and laws are being written and passed to bring the details kicking and screaming into the public domain.

Its coming. You don't have to believe it, like it, support it, want it or deny it, its literally, you are literally irrelevant. You matter like dust or leaves. Your pathetic comments are lost energy and worthless dross that are funny because they please you to write them and morons click likes ... and all the while, day after day, more and more is being dumped online from credible sources and organisations and it won't matter what you have done or haven't done it'll happen all the same.

I'm also irrelevant. I just keep tabs on things and post stuff that comes from people that aren't greer lol. People that are 100% working to a timed agenda. And it isnt their book or documentary or own ego ... they are dropping this stuff in a very controlled manner and you know that because Corbell and Knapp have had thise stuff for 5 or less years and said nothing. And out of the blue we are getting regular drops. Followed by background. They drop it knowing exactly where its from and when and with what and by who and stay silent for a few days and let the morons froth and talk sh@t and then they drop the rest destroying people like Mick West.

Like this latest Jelly Fish UAP a few days ago. Mick went into overdrive stating where it was filmed and that it certainly wasn't over water so couldn't have done what was claimed. Today Knapp and Corbell dropped the rest and named the body of water and wheeled out one of the guys that had the footage on his hard drive in his military capacity.

It's being orchestrated like never before. And it's speeding up. And instead of wasting time lying or calling it nonsese we should be trying to work out why.

But believe what you want because you won't matter to the outcome.

Uncle Pete · « **Reply #604 on:** January 16, 2024, 13:39 »

Quote from: Lowls on May 17, 2023, 17:30

Peter has clearly found his meds 😳 ... pssst Lower the dose.

Where do you start. The Bermuda triangle is a fact. The cause isn't but I subscribe to the underground or underwater mass gas releases experiments that were done which can be found on utube. The gas aerated the water and reduced its density. The only reason things float is that the specific gravity of water allows for things to float ad long as they displace more water than the object weighs. Aerated water changes the maths and boats sink through the water very very rapidly. It doesn't explain the various planes that went missing due to instrument failure specifically the compass but many things can cause a compass to fail.

The diatribe about Stanton Friedman is laughable and doesn't warrant a response frankly. Can't speak for the rest.
The crash at corona is a different crashed object recovery which has been exhaustively investigated by many but the one I'm familiar with is Scott Ramsay I think his name is.

... which brings us to the ignorance of the skeptics self proclaimed or otherwise. I did state at the beginning of the thread ... don't bother. Your ridiculous cliche of "the burden of proof falls to the ones making claims" is the usual trollop trotted out by lazy and idle people. You are the one hurling claims lol. Crack on Peter please prove your claim. You can't though can you because skeptics can never provide any meat to their bone. Its all "nonsense" they cry without any research or any proof what so ever. Lazy. And they never attempt to investigate themselves. They barely bother to research what's out there. One thing is a fact. No one employs skeptics when embarking on a venture do they. Pay them good money to work against you lol.

As for Roswell there is so much evidence, witness testimony and documents from people who were actually there at all levels of credibility it would take a lifetime to explore it all id imagine. You can thank Stanton Friedman for that because he tracked them all down and interviewed them on tape. Many of those interviews are available on utube. Of course all that research had to be done for free according to Peter. Because if you take that research and put the salient points in a book jacket and sell it, it automatically makes you a fraud. Oops. and the lectures these fraudsters attend are also scambait.

Peter is giving away his stock photos for free everyone btw. Just dm him that's right isn't it Peter lol.

It is certainly an interesting event. Dont take it from me though take it from someone who fought for their country for small pay. An actual hero who recieved the bronze star. Who supported the atom bomb tests at bikini atol. Put in charge as the intelligence officer at Roswell Air base and became group inteligence officef. A base who's purpose was to be the tip of the spear for nuclear monitoring against Russian radiological weapons testing amongst other things. Who went on to be promoted to Lt Col. Not bad for a fraud.

Or if you don't accept Jesse Snr how about Jesse Jnr or rather Dr Marcel or Flight Surgeon Marcel ... alleged quack and fraudster because he also attended lectures and also appeared on TV over the years.

Shame you ranted off Peter. Why is anyone's guess but that's you isn't it. What rank did you get to Pete ... I'm curious...

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Should cover the personal attacks and name calling that has gone on for months now?

Quote from: Lowls on January 15, 2024, 03:58

No you and others have repeatedly called it nonsense, make believe, and worse whilst denigrating the evidence and testimony given by serving military and civilian alike.

Which is why when you see this reported and investigated you'll see they always turn to you, Pete and gang for advice and confirmation instead of experts military or otherwise. Your name crops up regularly along with Petes and Annie's and all the other denialists that have contributed regularly here. Thank goodness we have you.

Stop Please.

Big Toe · « **Reply #605 on:** January 16, 2024, 13:53 »

Quote from: Lowls on January 16, 2024, 13:15

Roswell is certainly real all day long. All day long. It wasn't project mogul and it wasn't a weather balloon. In fact it's looking more and more like the genesis of this whole saga. I won't even get into Roswell because its already been verified and more to come on that when it comes.

As I stated here before, Roswell was caused by three Ferengi and a shapeshifter inadvertently travelling back in time.

That was revealed when the Deep Space Nine episode "Little Green Men" first aired in 1995.

We even have live action footage of the event. In color. What could be more convincing?

Lowls · « **Reply #606 on:** January 16, 2024, 14:12 »

Quote from: Big Toe on January 16, 2024, 13:53

Quote from: Lowls on January 16, 2024, 13:15
Roswell is certainly real all day long. All day long. It wasn't project mogul and it wasn't a weather balloon. In fact it's looking more and more like the genesis of this whole saga. I won't even get into Roswell because its already been verified and more to come on that when it comes.

As I stated here before, Roswell was caused by three Ferengi and a shapeshifter inadvertently travelling back in time.

That was revealed when the Deep Space Nine episode "Little Green Men" first aired in 1995.

We even have live action footage of the event. In color. What could be more convincing?

Deanna Troi's American accent?

Lowls · « **Reply #607 on:** January 16, 2024, 15:21 »

And the latest news features a UAP which bares the dubious names "Spaghetti Monster" and "Jelly Fish" uap.

Initially released as a still followed by footage and later by a stabilised version.

The still was imidiately derided as bird poop and balloons.

The footage was equally destroyed.

The stabilised version (suspiciously meticulously timed) shows that the object is actually rotating and is also shown at various distances removing the bird poop theory. However that remains out there as the chief explanation because not many have followed the story.

So balloons is the explanation by Mick West. Case solved yesterday with a neat little video showing all his workings. It's still categorised by the US military as UAP because they have much more data. Film. Instrumentation, experience and witnesses and no idea what it is.

https://youtube.com/shorts/DbH-M4wzXiw?feature=shared

Mick Wests claim yesterday

https://youtu.be/ojotsKjshHc?feature=shared

Corbell and Knapp give more detail
on the source of the video

https://youtu.be/aqsqcJ6DZsg?feature=shared

Lowls · « **Reply #608 on:** January 16, 2024, 18:55 »

For those who want to speed things up and want proof now. For $9.99 you can download an app called CE5 contact which guides you through meditation and tones to call in UAP.

https://youtu.be/v03hbaEnSGM?feature=shared

😳

alan b traehern · « **Reply #609 on:** January 17, 2024, 11:08 »

Quote from: LDV81 on January 16, 2024, 12:03

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 16, 2024, 08:58
I wrote to the forum, not to you. Maybe you can tell me, what do you think of Bob Lazar, Billy Meier, Ed Walters, George Adamski, David Icke, Jonathan Reed, and Steven Greer? How about Roswell, Ray Santilli and the alien autopsy? Or are you only going with Grusch from now on and ignoring the long history of fakes and frauds.

As I said, please work on your logical reasoning skills. What you present here is a classic case of whataboutism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Maybe some, or all, of those people were frauds, maybe there were some nuggets of truth in their claims, I honestly don't know. Some are suspicious.
But whatever they claimed is absolutely irrelevant to the person of Grusch. They don't matter. All it takes is one single confirmed case and the whole denialism crumbles like a house of cards.

Grusch is an investigator tasked with this job by the US government. He did present evidence to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community - Thomas Monheim. Based on that evidence he briefed Congressmen about his findings. Coming out of the briefing, they said "Grusch's claims have merit", "Grusch is legit".

These are facts, for crying out loud.

Another fact is that a lobby in the House fought hard (and won) against the Schumer amendment, which had been passed earlier in the Senate. It is logical to assume that there is some struggle in the circles of power; some are for disclosure, others are against it.

Now, can I say with 100% certainty that what Grusch claims is true? No, I cannot, because I have no means to verify that information myself. And that is OK.

But if you think that Grusch doesn't say the truth, the IGIC told lies to the Congress Committe, then you must deal with one very serious question and that question is:

W*T*F is going on???

Escaping that question is intellectual laziness and mediocrity. If you think that there is something suspicious going behind the curtain, then there you go: that is a conspiracy theory, too.

Yes it is whatabout. Your history the mythology the beliefs the fantasy science fiction is all flawed, lies, fables, fakes and not science. What about that? Talk about escaping the question, you divert and don't answer. What about all the fakes and debunked stories for over 60 years. And your pal Lowls doesn't answer anything, he just turns into Donald Trump and starts spewing personal attacks, trying to bully anyone who disagrees. How childish.

If you want it all to be about Grush and parallel planes, that's fine. But you have to excuse me for pointing out, UFOs and Aliens have attracted a large set of liars and nut cases. Religious doomsday cults that ended in suicide. End of the world, with the aliens coming down to save us.
Whatabout the history and the false claims. That's a fair question to ask.

If I borrowed money from you and didn't pay it back, then borrowed again and didn't pay back, would you just find a way around that and loan me money again? The alien and ufo claims have been biased and unsupported and instead of payback, we just get more unsupported debunked claims and frauds. Why should I buy that? How many times does someone get fooled before they stop and see there's something wrong with the history? I'm not lending my trust to a proven set of lies.

alan b traehern · « **Reply #610 on:** January 17, 2024, 11:11 »

Quote from: Lowls on January 16, 2024, 18:55

For those who want to speed things up and want proof now. For $9.99 you can download an app called CE5 contact which guides you through meditation and tones to call in UAP.

https://youtu.be/v03hbaEnSGM?feature=shared

😳

All about the selling of science fiction.

Quote from: Lowls on January 16, 2024, 12:33

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 16, 2024, 08:48
Quote from: Lowls on January 15, 2024, 03:58
Quote from: cascoly on January 14, 2024, 18:07
Quote from: LDV81 on January 13, 2024, 14:07
...

The heck, even if only some part of Grusch's claims are true, it is a gamechanger, and the denialist worldview crumbles like a house of cards.

not sure who you're referring to as 'denialists', but those critiquing here have never said there are no ET just that no conclusiive evidence has been presented yet.

No you and others have repeatedly called it nonsense, make believe, and worse whilst denigrating the evidence and testimony given by serving military and civilian alike.

Which is why when you see this reported and investigated you'll see they always turn to you, Pete and gang for advice and confirmation instead of experts military or otherwise. Your name crops up regularly along with Petes and Annie's and all the other denialists that have contributed regularly here. Thank goodness we have you.
The little girl has soiled her nappy again, maybe you should check with the doctor for that frothing at the mouth and drooling problem. Something here smells like a pile of hot dung.

That's mature and relevant to the thread.

I reply the way you write to everyone else. I expected you would treat us as you want to be treated. Like a liitle screaming, crying baby.

LDV81 · « **Reply #611 on:** January 17, 2024, 13:36 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 17, 2024, 11:08

Yes it is whatabout. Your history the mythology the beliefs the fantasy science fiction is all flawed, lies, fables, fakes and not science. What about that? Talk about escaping the question, you divert and don't answer. What about all the fakes and debunked stories for over 60 years. And your pal Lowls doesn't answer anything, he just turns into Donald Trump and starts spewing personal attacks, trying to bully anyone who disagrees. How childish.

If you want it all to be about Grush and parallel planes, that's fine. But you have to excuse me for pointing out, UFOs and Aliens have attracted a large set of liars and nut cases. Religious doomsday cults that ended in suicide. End of the world, with the aliens coming down to save us.
Whatabout the history and the false claims. That's a fair question to ask.

1. You repeatedly, and with premeditation, use whataboutism, which is a logical fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

2. You build a straw man, and then you burn it, which is another logical fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

3. When confronted with facts, you go berserk and spit out vitriol in an act resembling religious fanaticism. Destroying the chessboard when you are losing. You don't bring any constructive arguments of your own to the discussion. Zero positive contribution to the subject. You just claim that it is all fraud and lies and all people dealing with the phenomenon are frauds - because some might have been - when there is absolutely no causal relationship between those people and what is happening now with Grusch's claims.

Therefore I must conclude that you don't display any good will and don't seem to be interested in finding out the truth about the phenomenon. And as a result of that, participating in a conversation with you is intellectually a very underwhelming activity. You don't even know what my personal views about the nature of the phenomenon are, because your fanaticism doesn't allow the possibility of explanations that are contrary to your belief system. And in this thread, I did try to see the phenomenon from multiple angles - including a possibility of a psyop. Viewing an issue from multiple sides and considering various explanations requires good will, and as I wrote above - I don't think you have it.

Lowls · « **Reply #612 on:** January 17, 2024, 18:03 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 17, 2024, 11:08

Quote from: LDV81 on January 16, 2024, 12:03
Quote from: alan b traehern on January 16, 2024, 08:58
I wrote to the forum, not to you. Maybe you can tell me, what do you think of Bob Lazar, Billy Meier, Ed Walters, George Adamski, David Icke, Jonathan Reed, and Steven Greer? How about Roswell, Ray Santilli and the alien autopsy? Or are you only going with Grusch from now on and ignoring the long history of fakes and frauds.

As I said, please work on your logical reasoning skills. What you present here is a classic case of whataboutism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Maybe some, or all, of those people were frauds, maybe there were some nuggets of truth in their claims, I honestly don't know. Some are suspicious.
But whatever they claimed is absolutely irrelevant to the person of Grusch. They don't matter. All it takes is one single confirmed case and the whole denialism crumbles like a house of cards.

Grusch is an investigator tasked with this job by the US government. He did present evidence to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Community - Thomas Monheim. Based on that evidence he briefed Congressmen about his findings. Coming out of the briefing, they said "Grusch's claims have merit", "Grusch is legit".

These are facts, for crying out loud.

Another fact is that a lobby in the House fought hard (and won) against the Schumer amendment, which had been passed earlier in the Senate. It is logical to assume that there is some struggle in the circles of power; some are for disclosure, others are against it.

Now, can I say with 100% certainty that what Grusch claims is true? No, I cannot, because I have no means to verify that information myself. And that is OK.

But if you think that Grusch doesn't say the truth, the IGIC told lies to the Congress Committe, then you must deal with one very serious question and that question is:

W*T*F is going on???

Escaping that question is intellectual laziness and mediocrity. If you think that there is something suspicious going behind the curtain, then there you go: that is a conspiracy theory, too.

Yes it is whatabout. Your history the mythology the beliefs the fantasy science fiction is all flawed, lies, fables, fakes and not science. What about that? Talk about escaping the question, you divert and don't answer. What about all the fakes and debunked stories for over 60 years. And your pal Lowls doesn't answer anything, he just turns into Donald Trump and starts spewing personal attacks, trying to bully anyone who disagrees. How childish.

If you want it all to be about Grush and parallel planes, that's fine. But you have to excuse me for pointing out, UFOs and Aliens have attracted a large set of liars and nut cases. Religious doomsday cults that ended in suicide. End of the world, with the aliens coming down to save us.
Whatabout the history and the false claims. That's a fair question to ask.

If I borrowed money from you and didn't pay it back, then borrowed again and didn't pay back, would you just find a way around that and loan me money again? The alien and ufo claims have been biased and unsupported and instead of payback, we just get more unsupported debunked claims and frauds. Why should I buy that? How many times does someone get fooled before they stop and see there's something wrong with the history? I'm not lending my trust to a proven set of lies.

Doesn't answer questions after specifically answering your questions despite your insults?

So you want everyone to know you vehemently do not believe in any of it and that you lack the self control to state that in a mature way or state that and leave the thread? Instead you rant like a petulant child because why - the path to truth didn't live up to your expectations and you've had enough?

The ufology scene is full of fakes and charlatans and has been for decades and the best way to change that is what ... come here and explode regularly and defiantly that'll learn em?

Makes sense

Although I fear you're wasting precious life by making this your hill to die on. Not even a tussock is it.

I pity you if you cannot enjoy stories and experiences and campfire anecdotes about UFOs and take from them a secret excitement. All areas of life are filled with scumbags users and fakes but there isn't any point joining them. You've become the same at the other end of the scale.

Well rant away if you wish I can't stop you and hurl all the insults you feel you need to. It won't change anything out there. Personally I've always enjoyed ghost stories and have been lucky enough to have seen a couple of ghosts and years later something happened regarding one that I saw that was humbling. And although I've looked up forever I've only ever seen one UFO. Maybe it was aliens who knows. I feel we will soon find out if the possibility has grown. Or we will not. Hating and ranting won't change that outcome it will however change the wait. Meanwhile I'll keep posting events around the disclosure effort and you can call me more names it's fine. You've explained why you feel the way you do so jave at it and maybe we can give you some wonder back and soon.

alan b traehern · « **Reply #613 on:** January 17, 2024, 18:41 »

Grusch told legislators that he was told there has been a "multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program" but was denied access to the program.

He told his superiors, essentially "becoming a whistleblower," for which he said he suffered retaliation. Other people have been harmed or injured both by UAP activity and by government efforts to cover up the program, he testified, without giving specifics.

When asked by Rep. Nancy Mace, R-S.C., whether the U.S. has the bodies of the pilots of crashed aircraft from the UAP programs, Grusch said, "Biologics came with some of these recoveries."

When Mace asked whether they were human or nonhuman, Grusch said, "nonhuman, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge of the (UAP) program I talked to that are currently still on the program." He later said that he had not seen any bodies personally.

Lowls · « **Reply #614 on:** January 18, 2024, 04:16 »

Quote from: alan b traehern on January 17, 2024, 18:41

Grusch told legislators that he was told there has been a "multi-decade UAP crash retrieval and reverse engineering program" but was denied access to the program.

He told his superiors, essentially "becoming a whistleblower," for which he said he suffered retaliation. Other people have been harmed or injured both by UAP activity and by government efforts to cover up the program, he testified, without giving specifics.

When asked by Rep. Nancy Mace, R-S.C., whether the U.S. has the bodies of the pilots of crashed aircraft from the UAP programs, Grusch said, "Biologics came with some of these recoveries."

When Mace asked whether they were human or nonhuman, Grusch said, "nonhuman, and that was the assessment of people with direct knowledge of the (UAP) program I talked to that are currently still on the program." He later said that he had not seen any bodies personally.

Yes all correct. And whilst it isnt popular there are restrictions to what he could say. And I understand that. Remember sitting behind him was his lawyer who briefed him thoroughly.

Also his own complaint investigation was still ongoing and as anyone knows you must be careful not to prejudice a case by revealing specifics.

It was odd that he chose to say biologics instead of bodies. But I assume he lifted that phrase directly from the reports rather than chose it. And as you say he initially claimed he had not seen them for himself. However that doesn't invalidate his testimony because as he stated he attempted to gain access to the programmes and was denied. He couldn't get read in.

So people can use that as they will but most are clueless as to how that works. And in context that's surprising because he had access to a sh%t tonne of programmes. And that would be very exotic research. I've trawled the CIA website for declassified programmes and Jesus the stuff they were attempting in the 50s was out there. I mean out there. I've also read through some of the Russian stuff and decades ago they were building high energy targeted microwave blasters and mounting them on turrets around bases.

So he attempted to gain access, was refused and then raised the alarm because he was tasked with cataloguing all the secret programmes. Which is when he began being approached by those in these programmes and they told him what was happening.

So he could have left it at that and filed his reports and sent them up the chain snd to be honest it should have died there. It could have been killed dead at that point. And he'd appear alongside Greer in 20 years ... so why didn't it? It should have but its exploded on such a scale that the fan the sh&t hit has been smashed back to the 70s.

I can only assume it is being orchestrated. And the way this is happening in stages stinks. It stinks because Chris Mellon is behind it. He is loaded. More money than God. Why does he care. Elizondo again why. He's walked away, made his money and milked his position. Set for life on the circuit. Why.

I personally think this is too meticulous and too orchestrated. A couple of weeks and another chunk. And so on. It isnt drip drip, its watergate. And its reaching a point where in a minute someone is going to step foreward and dump it all out there because they can't be touched. Or it's gonna be dumped out there as part of the schedule.

Mellon and Elizondo walked out of the Pentagon with go fast, gimble and Tic Tac under their arm and did so exploiting a loophole. what how?

Cockpit footage taken by pilots on their own phones has been confiscated and classified. And there is legal push to retrieve those phones and data because the law makes it the pilots property. You can go on utube and see navy pilots go pro footage of them performing dog fights. Crystal clear. I watched cockpit footage of a pilot following a misile side by side from his head cam. Some pilots even have their own channels on utube. So how on earth can they confiscate footage or UAP legimately using national security rules.

What legal loophole got Chad Underwoods footage out there and Mellon and Elizondo aren't making numberplates.

Money, power and permission and that is significant if true.

LDV81 · « **Reply #615 on:** January 19, 2024, 09:56 »

An interesting analysis of the situation by Bernardo Kastrup:

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html

As usually, Bernardo is very interested in parsimony. However, there is no guarantee that parsimony will lead to the truth. Still, an interesting hypothesis, an intersting point of view and a very balanced article. It might also be one of multiple aspects of the phenomenon. Bernardo had consulted the essay with such people as e.g. Garry Nolan and Hal Puthoff.

Lowls · « **Reply #616 on:** January 19, 2024, 14:33 »

Quote from: LDV81 on January 19, 2024, 09:56

An interesting analysis of the situation by Bernardo Kastrup:

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html

As usually, Bernardo is very interested in parsimony. However, there is no guarantee that parsimony will lead to the truth. Still, an interesting hypothesis, an intersting point of view and a very balanced article. It might also be one of multiple aspects of the phenomenon. Bernardo had consulted the essay with such people as e.g. Garry Nolan and Hal Puthoff.

This the problem with articles. It's already out of date. While KirkPatrick did acknowledge that spheres are world wide and classified as UAP he has published an article of his own. If anything it helps prove he was a bad actor but still. Its certainly getting ugly out there. I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell. The guy is unhinged. Not only has he shown he couldn't get access to stuff he's whining that he was being bypassed. And this shows why he should have been. Jesus he is a real dodgy guy.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-what-i-learned-as-the-u-s-governments-ufo-hunter/

cascoly · « **Reply #617 on:** January 19, 2024, 19:09 »

Quote from: Lowls on January 19, 2024, 14:33

Quote from: LDV81 on January 19, 2024, 09:56
An interesting analysis of the situation by Bernardo Kastrup:

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html

This the problem with articles. It's already out of date. While KirkPatrick did acknowledge that spheres are world wide and classified as UAP he has published an article of his own. If anything it helps prove he was a bad actor but still. Its certainly getting ugly out there. I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell. The guy is unhinged. ... Jesus he is a real dodgy guy.

LDV81 ---thanks for the link, it's a very interesting & well thought out argument, with little actual discussion of extra-terrestials, concentrating more on the possible evolution of terrestrial non-human intelligences - no test will prove they don't exist, but it is possible to demonstrate evidence that they DO exist.

lowls:

It’s a LONG article – did you actually read it? Or just repeat your kneejerk denialist claims that all skeptics can be dismissed? The article doesn’t say anything like you just claimed

‘what’s good for the goose...’ department: Importantly, did you read his credentials? They are as good if not better than most of the folk you support – and how can you, as an admitted layman, dare to challenge his veracity?!?

Quote

I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell

'where's the beef?' should be simple to show the passages where he does this, but i doubt you can since in fact, he doesn't even mention Elizondo, Knapp or Corbell and his comment on Mellon is straightforward:

Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the US Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence, [has] lent credibility to the claim that there are active UAP crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering programmes

quotes from the actual article
In my view, a significant portion of the published material could benefit from greater rigor, empirical grounding, theoretical clarity, and logical reasoning. This field often appears to diverge from the standards of intellectual precision and level-headed analysis that hold in academia. However, recent developments over the past six or seven years invite us to re-examine the subject from a more open and inquisitive perspective.

...
Enough has been officially acknowledged since 2017 that the topic is now undoubtedly deserving of serious treatment. After laying foundations for my argument, I will then proceed to elaborate on what I currently consider to be the most level-headed and plausible account of the phenomenon. And to anticipate a question you are bound to be already asking, no, I don’t think it is aliens from Zeta Reticuli; the facts may be a lot more surprising and closer to home than that.

...
the names and credentials of the individuals mentioned above are not in doubt; they are who they say they are. And their ranks and roles put them in a position to plausibly know what they claim to know. These individuals are willing to testify under oath in public hearings and confidentially provide evidence to members of congress.

So.. no ad hominem attacks, and NO disparagement of those folk - instead he examines several hypotheses and describes methods that could actually prove them –stating they found non-human biologics requires publication in a peer reviewed journal not just testimony from someone, who may sincerely believe it but has not presented any actual facts

Therefore, if the biologics in the freezers of the powers-that-be have the same biochemistry we do, I believe it is safe to assume that they are terrestrial; they are our older cousins—likely forever traumatised by earlier planetary cataclysms—and certainly not aliens.

Another prediction of the ‘ultra-terrestrial’ hypothesis is this: the materials—say, the metals—used in the UAP craft should have isotope ratios compatible with an earthly origin, as opposed to one outside the solar system. If the powers-that-be are in possession of such craft, this shouldn’t be a difficult test to perform.

Together, the two test results suggested above, if mutually consistent, should be conclusive.

Most of the article is a discussion of the possibility of non-human terrestrial intelligence

Notice that my claim here is not that it is likely that high-tech nonhuman civilisations have emerged on Earth before us; I cannot evaluate the probabilities involved. My claim is that, based on what we know, such civilisations are not impossible or inconsistent with the geological record. On the contrary: as Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Frank point out, the record shows several periods of global warming consistent with large-scale industrialization.

A side discussion maps the difficulties of translating the language of a species that doesn’t share our cognitive space (whales, praying manti? ) great SF series by Adrian Tchaikovsky – Children of Time & “The 3 body problem trilogy” by Cixin Liu about the difficulties of dealing with an intelligent group of spiders

His final caveat:
Notice, however, that the hypothesis proposed here presupposes the UAP data disclosed thus far to be authentic, and not the result of a sprawling disinformation campaign. In the latter case, the key motivations and empirical ground for the speculations in this essay would be void, and the hypothesis should be disregarded in its entirety

Lowls · « **Reply #618 on:** January 19, 2024, 19:44 »

Quote from: cascoly on January 19, 2024, 19:09

Quote from: Lowls on January 19, 2024, 14:33
Quote from: LDV81 on January 19, 2024, 09:56
An interesting analysis of the situation by Bernardo Kastrup:

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html

This the problem with articles. It's already out of date. While KirkPatrick did acknowledge that spheres are world wide and classified as UAP he has published an article of his own. If anything it helps prove he was a bad actor but still. Its certainly getting ugly out there. I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell. The guy is unhinged. ... Jesus he is a real dodgy guy.

LDV81 ---thanks for the link, it's a very interesting & well thought out argument, with little actual discussion of extra-terrestials, concentrating more on the possible evolution of terrestrial non-human intelligences - no test will prove they don't exist, but it is possible to demonstrate evidence that they DO exist.

lowls:

It’s a LONG article – did you actually read it? Or just repeat your kneejerk denialist claims that all skeptics can be dismissed? The article doesn’t say anything like you just claimed

‘what’s good for the goose...’ department: Importantly, did you read his credentials? They are as good if not better than most of the folk you support – and how can you, as an admitted layman, dare to challenge his veracity?!?

Quote
I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell
'where's the beef?' should be simple to show the passages where he does this, but i doubt you can since in fact, he doesn't even mention Elizondo, Knapp or Corbell and his comment on Mellon is straightforward:

Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the US Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence, [has] lent credibility to the claim that there are active UAP crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering programmes

quotes from the actual article
In my view, a significant portion of the published material could benefit from greater rigor, empirical grounding, theoretical clarity, and logical reasoning. This field often appears to diverge from the standards of intellectual precision and level-headed analysis that hold in academia. However, recent developments over the past six or seven years invite us to re-examine the subject from a more open and inquisitive perspective.

...
Enough has been officially acknowledged since 2017 that the topic is now undoubtedly deserving of serious treatment. After laying foundations for my argument, I will then proceed to elaborate on what I currently consider to be the most level-headed and plausible account of the phenomenon. And to anticipate a question you are bound to be already asking, no, I don’t think it is aliens from Zeta Reticuli; the facts may be a lot more surprising and closer to home than that.

...
the names and credentials of the individuals mentioned above are not in doubt; they are who they say they are. And their ranks and roles put them in a position to plausibly know what they claim to know. These individuals are willing to testify under oath in public hearings and confidentially provide evidence to members of congress.

So.. no ad hominem attacks, and NO disparagement of those folk - instead he examines several hypotheses and describes methods that could actually prove them –stating they found non-human biologics requires publication in a peer reviewed journal not just testimony from someone, who may sincerely believe it but has not presented any actual facts

Therefore, if the biologics in the freezers of the powers-that-be have the same biochemistry we do, I believe it is safe to assume that they are terrestrial; they are our older cousins—likely forever traumatised by earlier planetary cataclysms—and certainly not aliens.

Another prediction of the ‘ultra-terrestrial’ hypothesis is this: the materials—say, the metals—used in the UAP craft should have isotope ratios compatible with an earthly origin, as opposed to one outside the solar system. If the powers-that-be are in possession of such craft, this shouldn’t be a difficult test to perform.

Together, the two test results suggested above, if mutually consistent, should be conclusive.

Most of the article is a discussion of the possibility of non-human terrestrial intelligence

Notice that my claim here is not that it is likely that high-tech nonhuman civilisations have emerged on Earth before us; I cannot evaluate the probabilities involved. My claim is that, based on what we know, such civilisations are not impossible or inconsistent with the geological record. On the contrary: as Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Frank point out, the record shows several periods of global warming consistent with large-scale industrialization.

A side discussion maps the difficulties of translating the language of a species that doesn’t share our cognitive space (whales, praying manti? ) great SF series by Adrian Tchaikovsky – Children of Time & “The 3 body problem trilogy” by Cixin Liu about the difficulties of dealing with an intelligent group of spiders

His final caveat:
Notice, however, that the hypothesis proposed here presupposes the UAP data disclosed thus far to be authentic, and not the result of a sprawling disinformation campaign. In the latter case, the key motivations and empirical ground for the speculations in this essay would be void, and the hypothesis should be disregarded in its entirety

I did. I didn't bother reading all of what you wrote why would I? I've no interest in anything you have to say. Glad you've found something you enjoyed.

cascoly · « **Reply #619 on:** January 19, 2024, 21:11 »

Quote from: Lowls on January 19, 2024, 19:44

Quote from: cascoly on January 19, 2024, 19:09
Quote from: Lowls on January 19, 2024, 14:33
Quote from: LDV81 on January 19, 2024, 09:56
An interesting analysis of the situation by Bernardo Kastrup:

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html

This the problem with articles. It's already out of date. While KirkPatrick did acknowledge that spheres are world wide and classified as UAP he has published an article of his own. If anything it helps prove he was a bad actor but still. Its certainly getting ugly out there. I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell. The guy is unhinged. ... Jesus he is a real dodgy guy.

LDV81 ---thanks for the link, it's a very interesting & well thought out argument, with little actual discussion of extra-terrestials, concentrating more on the possible evolution of terrestrial non-human intelligences - no test will prove they don't exist, but it is possible to demonstrate evidence that they DO exist.

lowls:

It’s a LONG article – did you actually read it? Or just repeat your kneejerk denialist claims that all skeptics can be dismissed? The article doesn’t say anything like you just claimed

‘what’s good for the goose...’ department: Importantly, did you read his credentials? They are as good if not better than most of the folk you support – and how can you, as an admitted layman, dare to challenge his veracity?!?

Quote
I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell
'where's the beef?' should be simple to show the passages where he does this, but i doubt you can since in fact, he doesn't even mention Elizondo, Knapp or Corbell and his comment on Mellon is straightforward:

Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the US Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence, [has] lent credibility to the claim that there are active UAP crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering programmes

quotes from the actual article
In my view, a significant portion of the published material could benefit from greater rigor, empirical grounding, theoretical clarity, and logical reasoning. This field often appears to diverge from the standards of intellectual precision and level-headed analysis that hold in academia. However, recent developments over the past six or seven years invite us to re-examine the subject from a more open and inquisitive perspective.

...
Enough has been officially acknowledged since 2017 that the topic is now undoubtedly deserving of serious treatment. After laying foundations for my argument, I will then proceed to elaborate on what I currently consider to be the most level-headed and plausible account of the phenomenon. And to anticipate a question you are bound to be already asking, no, I don’t think it is aliens from Zeta Reticuli; the facts may be a lot more surprising and closer to home than that.

...
the names and credentials of the individuals mentioned above are not in doubt; they are who they say they are. And their ranks and roles put them in a position to plausibly know what they claim to know. These individuals are willing to testify under oath in public hearings and confidentially provide evidence to members of congress.

So.. no ad hominem attacks, and NO disparagement of those folk - instead he examines several hypotheses and describes methods that could actually prove them –stating they found non-human biologics requires publication in a peer reviewed journal not just testimony from someone, who may sincerely believe it but has not presented any actual facts

Therefore, if the biologics in the freezers of the powers-that-be have the same biochemistry we do, I believe it is safe to assume that they are terrestrial; they are our older cousins—likely forever traumatised by earlier planetary cataclysms—and certainly not aliens.

Another prediction of the ‘ultra-terrestrial’ hypothesis is this: the materials—say, the metals—used in the UAP craft should have isotope ratios compatible with an earthly origin, as opposed to one outside the solar system. If the powers-that-be are in possession of such craft, this shouldn’t be a difficult test to perform.

Together, the two test results suggested above, if mutually consistent, should be conclusive.

Most of the article is a discussion of the possibility of non-human terrestrial intelligence

Notice that my claim here is not that it is likely that high-tech nonhuman civilisations have emerged on Earth before us; I cannot evaluate the probabilities involved. My claim is that, based on what we know, such civilisations are not impossible or inconsistent with the geological record. On the contrary: as Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Frank point out, the record shows several periods of global warming consistent with large-scale industrialization.

A side discussion maps the difficulties of translating the language of a species that doesn’t share our cognitive space (whales, praying manti? ) great SF series by Adrian Tchaikovsky – Children of Time & “The 3 body problem trilogy” by Cixin Liu about the difficulties of dealing with an intelligent group of spiders

His final caveat:
Notice, however, that the hypothesis proposed here presupposes the UAP data disclosed thus far to be authentic, and not the result of a sprawling disinformation campaign. In the latter case, the key motivations and empirical ground for the speculations in this essay would be void, and the hypothesis should be disregarded in its entirety

I did. I didn't bother reading all of what you wrote why would I? I've no interest in anything you have to say. Glad you've found something you enjoyed.

so you admit you didn't bother to read the article before condemning it! and now you can't respond not to my comments, but to the actual article that you slimed w/o actually knowing what it said?

your response is the usual ad hominem attack against the poster rather than responding to the actual questions & your mis=-representation of its content. - i quoted from the actual article & you have no response to that actual content & lying about the article you didn't bother to read!

prove me wrong!

Lowls · « **Reply #620 on:** January 20, 2024, 02:36 »

Quote from: cascoly on January 19, 2024, 21:11

Quote from: Lowls on January 19, 2024, 19:44
Quote from: cascoly on January 19, 2024, 19:09
Quote from: Lowls on January 19, 2024, 14:33
Quote from: LDV81 on January 19, 2024, 09:56
An interesting analysis of the situation by Bernardo Kastrup:

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/01/uaps-and-non-human-intelligence-what-is.html

This the problem with articles. It's already out of date. While KirkPatrick did acknowledge that spheres are world wide and classified as UAP he has published an article of his own. If anything it helps prove he was a bad actor but still. Its certainly getting ugly out there. I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell. The guy is unhinged. ... Jesus he is a real dodgy guy.

LDV81 ---thanks for the link, it's a very interesting & well thought out argument, with little actual discussion of extra-terrestials, concentrating more on the possible evolution of terrestrial non-human intelligences - no test will prove they don't exist, but it is possible to demonstrate evidence that they DO exist.

lowls:

It’s a LONG article – did you actually read it? Or just repeat your kneejerk denialist claims that all skeptics can be dismissed? The article doesn’t say anything like you just claimed

‘what’s good for the goose...’ department: Importantly, did you read his credentials? They are as good if not better than most of the folk you support – and how can you, as an admitted layman, dare to challenge his veracity?!?

Quote
I mean lol its literally a hate letter to Grusch, Elizondo, Mellon and George Knapp and Corbell
'where's the beef?' should be simple to show the passages where he does this, but i doubt you can since in fact, he doesn't even mention Elizondo, Knapp or Corbell and his comment on Mellon is straightforward:

Christopher Mellon, who spent nearly twenty years in the US Intelligence Community and served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for Intelligence, [has] lent credibility to the claim that there are active UAP crash-retrieval and reverse-engineering programmes

quotes from the actual article
In my view, a significant portion of the published material could benefit from greater rigor, empirical grounding, theoretical clarity, and logical reasoning. This field often appears to diverge from the standards of intellectual precision and level-headed analysis that hold in academia. However, recent developments over the past six or seven years invite us to re-examine the subject from a more open and inquisitive perspective.

...
Enough has been officially acknowledged since 2017 that the topic is now undoubtedly deserving of serious treatment. After laying foundations for my argument, I will then proceed to elaborate on what I currently consider to be the most level-headed and plausible account of the phenomenon. And to anticipate a question you are bound to be already asking, no, I don’t think it is aliens from Zeta Reticuli; the facts may be a lot more surprising and closer to home than that.

...
the names and credentials of the individuals mentioned above are not in doubt; they are who they say they are. And their ranks and roles put them in a position to plausibly know what they claim to know. These individuals are willing to testify under oath in public hearings and confidentially provide evidence to members of congress.

So.. no ad hominem attacks, and NO disparagement of those folk - instead he examines several hypotheses and describes methods that could actually prove them –stating they found non-human biologics requires publication in a peer reviewed journal not just testimony from someone, who may sincerely believe it but has not presented any actual facts

Therefore, if the biologics in the freezers of the powers-that-be have the same biochemistry we do, I believe it is safe to assume that they are terrestrial; they are our older cousins—likely forever traumatised by earlier planetary cataclysms—and certainly not aliens.

Another prediction of the ‘ultra-terrestrial’ hypothesis is this: the materials—say, the metals—used in the UAP craft should have isotope ratios compatible with an earthly origin, as opposed to one outside the solar system. If the powers-that-be are in possession of such craft, this shouldn’t be a difficult test to perform.

Together, the two test results suggested above, if mutually consistent, should be conclusive.

Most of the article is a discussion of the possibility of non-human terrestrial intelligence

Notice that my claim here is not that it is likely that high-tech nonhuman civilisations have emerged on Earth before us; I cannot evaluate the probabilities involved. My claim is that, based on what we know, such civilisations are not impossible or inconsistent with the geological record. On the contrary: as Dr. Schmidt and Dr. Frank point out, the record shows several periods of global warming consistent with large-scale industrialization.

A side discussion maps the difficulties of translating the language of a species that doesn’t share our cognitive space (whales, praying manti? ) great SF series by Adrian Tchaikovsky – Children of Time & “The 3 body problem trilogy” by Cixin Liu about the difficulties of dealing with an intelligent group of spiders

His final caveat:
Notice, however, that the hypothesis proposed here presupposes the UAP data disclosed thus far to be authentic, and not the result of a sprawling disinformation campaign. In the latter case, the key motivations and empirical ground for the speculations in this essay would be void, and the hypothesis should be disregarded in its entirety

I did. I didn't bother reading all of what you wrote why would I? I've no interest in anything you have to say. Glad you've found something you enjoyed.

so you admit you didn't bother to read the article before condemning it! and now you can't respond not to my comments, but to the actual article that you slimed w/o actually knowing what it said?

your response is the usual ad hominem attack against the poster rather than responding to the actual questions & your mis=-representation of its content. - i quoted from the actual article & you have no response to that actual content & lying about the article you didn't bother to read!

prove me wrong!

As your English is almost perfect I'll have to assume you're inebriated, you've lost your glasses (we've all been there), have not read what I wrote sufficiently well or are deliberately attempting to smear me.

As I said in the previous post I did, as in read the article in full. The writer gives Kirkpatrick a favourable commentary. Which would now be out of date because of the article I posted written by Kirkpatrick himself where he slams the names I mentioned. Whilst you aren't stupid you aren't very well read regarding those historically involved and so when he mentions a small group pushing the narrative he only means those who pushed the narrative and we who have followed this from the beginning know who that small core are.

The only comment I made about the original article you claim is fair was that it was already out of date. I never referred to it thereafter because my post was regarding Kirkpatrics article.

I don't have to prove anything to you because you are a disingenuous troll who doesn't understand the ironic nature of his repeated claims of attack.

So write whatever you want because we both known you are going to until any current information is buried in your latest rant. So because of that I'll bump the relevant posts when needed whenever you derail the thread again.

Lowls · « **Reply #621 on:** January 20, 2024, 07:39 »

Anyway and moving on ...

quite a firefight going on with governmental departments and civilian organisations regarding UAP this week.

Jeremy Corbell and Geroge Knapp released footage of the Jellyfish UAP throwing skeptics and law makers into chaos and ufology followers splut down the middle claiming nonsense like this wasn't helpful and others actually digging into the details. As mentioned Mick West almost instantly threw out a debunking video some of which had merit but he failed spectacularly on two major fronts.

At first stab his video shows it isnt as he girst claimed bird poop on the lens. Later he showed that it was an object but that it was most likely balloons and the general concensus was that it was balloons celebrating Eid. There is in all fairness a similarity roughly in shape.

As things progressed it was revealed that this UAP was filmed in 2018. Eid was in June and the footage was taken in a different part of the year. From memory I believe February or March though that may be wrong. Suffice to say it wasn't at Eid time by some months.

Mick West claimed that it wasn't filmed in 2018 at all and that it must be 2017 because he checked against publicly available satelite images and in 2017 the buildings matched better than in 2018. Eid was still June in 2017. He then found a camera operator willing to state that it was a balloon. Or collection of balloons.

However and he has refused to answer questions on this, he used satelute data to show the system used to collect the footage as being a surveillance balloon and said matching up the buildings in the image so the size match he accurately assessed the height of the S Balloon looking down and the buildings and calculated the height of the collection of balloons to be a. retain height.

Two glaring errors which he is now ignoring. He has assumed the size of the UAP. And in doing so (assuming it is an Eid balloon display) has judged the height based on that. He doesn't know its balloons. So he can't work out tye height because he can't tell distance tye object is between camera and budings.

And he cannot post the focal length of the camera lens because he doesn't know it. And in fact in the balloons own release bumf it states that it will be tethered at 1000 feet. But West claims that's it nearly double this. Later versions are tethered higher but we don't know what version this is. So he is claiming its balloons without being able to verify its size and therefore distance and height.

But he has other things to worry about because he stands accused of working with a skeptic group who also stand accused of editing the Wikipedia pages for various journalists, writers and academics involved in the UAP timeline and also changing details that are historic fact on Wikipedia pages of UAP events. Lots of them. And the reason he stands accused are that the same user that made a lot of these changes also altered his Wikipedia page to make him look great, allegedly. A lot of very angry people none less angry then Gary Nolan who was a target as was Ross Coulthart, Corbell, Mellon, Knapp etc ...

Several members of Congress have taken their gloves off after the latest UAP footage of the jellyfish and have watched Corbell and Knapps interview with a surveillance camera operative who confirmed that he knew there were 17 minutes of footage. But the two videos of Jellyfish amount to about 4 minutes. Missing footage which Corbell and Knapp claim was confiscated. Today they have stated they know by whom. And Corbell is going to release what department took it.

For anyone that's followed this in the last two years I can say with complete sincerity and honesty that I have NEVER seen anything like this in my life and I've followed this since I was a kid. Nothing has ever happened this was before but it is amazing to witness. Maybe in the past one ufologist has made outlandish claims but this .... jaw dropping behaviour. The closest was Lazar. This is however history happening live. And the week isn't even over.

Lowls · « **Reply #622 on:** January 21, 2024, 13:51 »

regarding speculation about the Jellyfish UAP footage the Pentagon have released the following statement:

Susan Gough states:

"We do not comment on the authenticity of alleged DOD material that may have been leaked. DOD takes public interest in unidentified anomalous phenomena seriously and is committed to openness and accountability to the American people.

"This commitment must be balanced with the department’s obligation to protect sensitive information, sources, and methods. To that end, AARO will provide updates to the public via its website as it resolves UAP cases, including sharing the analytic approach and method used for each case, as well as imagery, when approved for public release."

Although typically they confirm the footage that's been leaked in around 3 weeks from its release. So we shall see.

Lowls · « **Reply #623 on:** January 22, 2024, 06:56 »

While Mick West is still defending his balloon theory for the Jellyfish footage Dave Falch has stepped in to give his analysis.

Conclusion: Black DARPA craft undergoing testing and footage leaked.

https://youtu.be/S9qbB23BuhI?feature=shared

He does however explain what it's unlikely to be. Spoiler: No balloon animals

sgoodwin4813 · « **Reply #624 on:** January 22, 2024, 16:16 »

Quote from: LDV81 on January 13, 2024, 14:07

...
Pete and gang for advice and confirmation instead of experts military or otherwise

I'll believe Pete over the military any day!

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