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Author Topic: Will the Russia/Ukraine war affect sales?  (Read 15653 times)

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« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2022, 13:41 »
+5
It is not very surprising that, with the expansion drift of the EU and NATO, there comes a point in time that Russia says "enough is enough". You can hate them for it, and maybe rightfully so. But the guilt question here is not so easy to answer. If the situation was reversed and Russia would have been snatching one country after another in say Central America, the US would never have allowed it so close to it's border (oh wait, that actually happened :) )


You seem to be confused and have a lot of stuff mixed up.
 The EU or NATO are not "snatching" countries. The European Union and NATO are voluntary coalitions. Russia can make coalitions with how many countries it likes. Invading countries is a different story.


« Reply #126 on: February 27, 2022, 13:43 »
+1


Russia propping up dictators like Sadam and Gaddafi plus dozens of other wannabe genocidal maniacs.



Sadam was US best friend until he didn't decided to try to control his oil prices.
Point.

Actually, until Kuwait decided to defy Iraq, increase its production and sell cheaper oil. Iraq desperately needed high oil prices, to recover, after they spent a fortune fighting Iran, for almost 8 years.

So, it was Sadam who wanted to control prices of someone else's oil.

He used this as a pretext to invade a smaller country.

That's no different than Putin invading Ukraine now.

The difference is that, back then, The US and many European countries had the guts to stand up to Sadam, and free Kuwait.


Not so much now.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 13:59 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #127 on: February 27, 2022, 13:53 »
+1
Don't forget the rocket crisis. USA didn't allowed Russian missiles to be installed on Kuba, right? Would Americans have attacked back then? Hell yes.

On the photo Belgrade 1999 after NATO bombing.

NATO fought against murder, rape, ethnic cleansing and genocide by the military and the forces of Slobodan Miloević government.

Yes, and the USA bombed Japan in 1945 to end the hideous war that Japan began by bombing our naval base in Hawaii on December 7, 1941.

Context is everything, isn't it?

if we're going back to WWII re the US actions, we should probably recall the Ribbentrop-Molotov non aggression pact, and USSR invasion of Poland when Germany did in 1939 (and their massacres of polish officers and aggressive takeovers of eastern Europe post-WWII  that was the reason NATO was created in the first place)

meanwhile:
As the German army began its invasion of the Soviet Union on June 22, 1941, Stalin ordered the Soviet Secret Service (NKVD) to remove the prison population in the USSRs occupied territories rather than allow them to fall into German hands. This was largely accomplished through the mass murder of prisoners at various locations in Western Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, and Lithuania. The majority of the mass executions, later termed the 1941 NKVD Prison Massacres by local residents, occurred in Western Ukraine. Due to a lack of reliable sources, exact numbers are impossible to determine; however, historians estimate that the NKVD killed somewhere between 10,000 and 40,000 people in dozens of prisons over the course of eight days. The ethnic breakdown of casualties in Western Ukraine roughly corresponded to population demographics: 70 percent of the victims were Ukrainian, 20 percent Polish, and the remainder consisted of Jews and other nationalities.

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/1941-nkvd-prison-massacres-western-ukraine

« Reply #128 on: February 27, 2022, 13:55 »
+2
Why don't you just go with your oldy fellow Martha and get your hip replaced, or do whatever else oldies do.

Wow, Thijs, doesn't that sound like a great suggestion??!! What do you think?

...

And once we manage, at long last, to rise up from our wheel chairs, maybe we can toss horse shoes together! Or play bridge!! ..

hey- i started playing duplicate bridge tournaments in the 1970s along w Omar Sharif

« Reply #129 on: February 27, 2022, 13:59 »
+2
...
... Donbas region will have an autonomous position within the Ukraine preserving the rights and safety of the ethnic russian population living there. That will also be the final solution to this matter. Or maybe just split up the country as they did with Yugoslavia if the situation is not resolvable in the end.

just what we need! another final solution

SVH

« Reply #130 on: February 27, 2022, 14:00 »
+2
Actually, until Kuwait decided to defy Iraq, increase its production and sell cheaper oil. Iraq desperately needed high oil prices, after they spent a fortune fighting Iran.

So, it was Sadam who wanted to control prices of someone else's oil.

He used this as a pretext to invade a smaller country. That's no difderent than Putin invading Ukraine now.

The difference is that, back then, The US and UN had the guts to stand up to Sadam.

No, Saddam was helped by the US because Irak was getting to tight with Iran and Iran was the enemy of the US. The whole Iran-Irak war was supported by the US without making their own hands dirty. The US has a long history of enabling coups and putting puppets in place that served their interest regardless of the population in those countries. France had a large role here as well because of it's major oil interests in the country. Please try to read into this history and understand that all of the world powers are extremely hyopocrite when blaming one and each other.

« Reply #131 on: February 27, 2022, 14:08 »
+1

And please don't try to educate me about that war, I was personally in that war fighting against him and spent best years of my life under his gradates while the world was watching.


   

Thank you for sharing. I understand now why you have your reservations.
Yes, that's where we went wrong. Perhaps because it was first seen as an internal quarrel of a country falling apart after Tito.
Two years ago we were in Slovenia where the problems started. In 2015 we were in Trogir near Split and it was almost impossible to imagine what a misery it was there.
yes, both Trogir & Split are now (well deserved) tourist destinations.
or in Dubrovnik where much of 'old town' rooves were destroyed in the conflict, but little evidence now of the destruction.

« Reply #132 on: February 27, 2022, 14:11 »
+3


Russia propping up dictators like Sadam and Gaddafi plus dozens of other wannabe genocidal maniacs.



Sadam was US best friend until he didn't decided to try to control his oil prices.
Point.

Actually, until Kuwait decided to defy Iraq, increase its production and sell cheaper oil. Iraq desperately needed high oil prices, to recover, after they spent a fortune fighting Iran, for almost 8 years.

So, it was Sadam who wanted to control prices of someone else's oil.

He used this as a pretext to invade a smaller country.

That's no different than Putin invading Ukraine now.

The difference is that, back then, The US and many European countries had the guts to stand up to Sadam, and free Kuwait.


Not so much now.

To bad no one ever had guts to stop what Israel is doing for decades and stop a genocide and ethnic cleaning.

« Reply #133 on: February 27, 2022, 14:16 »
+2

And please don't try to educate me about that war, I was personally in that war fighting against him and spent best years of my life under his gradates while the world was watching.


   

Thank you for sharing. I understand now why you have your reservations.
Yes, that's where we went wrong. Perhaps because it was first seen as an internal quarrel of a country falling apart after Tito.
Two years ago we were in Slovenia where the problems started. In 2015 we were in Trogir near Split and it was almost impossible to imagine what a misery it was there.
yes, both Trogir & Split are now (well deserved) tourist destinations.
or in Dubrovnik where much of 'old town' rooves were destroyed in the conflict, but little evidence now of the destruction.

I just took Vukovar and Sarajevo as examples because they were hit most. Vukovar was destroyed to the ground.

Cities on the coast took not even similar damage as the ones I mentioned.

Vukovar looked like this and civilians were hiding in basements for months under 1000s and 100s of grenades on daily basis. That is what war brings, and who wants it is not normal.




« Reply #134 on: February 27, 2022, 14:19 »
+2
Sadam was US best friend until he didn't decided to try to control his oil prices.
Point.
Quote

Actually, until Kuwait decided to defy Iraq, increase its production and sell cheaper oil. Iraq desperately needed high oil prices, to recover, after they spent a fortune fighting Iran, for almost 8 years.

So, it was Sadam who wanted to control prices of someone else's oil.

He used this as a pretext to invade a smaller country.

That's no different than Putin invading Ukraine now.

The difference is that, back then, The US and many European countries had the guts to stand up to Sadam, and free Kuwait.


Not so much now.
Quote
To bad no one ever had guts to stop what Israel is doing for decades and stop a genocide and ethnic cleaning.
That's a different topic, and you may have a point.

Going back to Sadam, can you agree now that Sadam and Putin are doing the same thing, while the reaction to their aggressions is vastly different?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 14:21 by Zero Talent »

thijsdegraaf

« Reply #135 on: February 27, 2022, 14:23 »
+3
Finally Russia have send a clear message: dear Americans, your time as world policeman is over. You have been dropping bombs on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Serbia, Vietnam, Japan, etc., but it stops right now. What you gonna do? Will you crap your pants? Yes you will.

Weird, is not it? Of course you don't agree with that either.

Hadn't Russia dropped a few bombs on Syria too? At hospitals. Oh no, they denied that. And we've never caught them in a lie. A Dutch plane shot out of the sky. Oh no, they denied that too.
Ukraine attacked. Oh no, that was an exercise. Oh no, but it is an army of peace. Which country kills its own countrymen?
Coincidentally, I am now listening to a Dutch journalist, who has lived in Russia for thirty years, wrote that this would not happen and is now in shock that a brother nation is being murdered. like many of his Russians friends are in shock he said.

I've never said Russians are good boys. But, let's look again: Vietnam, Laos, Panama, Yugoslavia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan. Let's also look, I don0t know, tortures in Guantanamo. Or native Americans genocide. Or Israel. What about two atomic bombs? Are you blind or ignorant? You compare a journalist with 5.000.000 Vietnamese? Really?

Russia has demanded an end to NATOs eastward expansion and said Ukrainian membership of the US-led Atlantic military alliance was unacceptable.

Can you do it? Thinking I mean.

Now I can say that Afghanistan became especially problematic after the failed Russian invasion in that country and that attacks were organized from Afghanistan on the west (Nine eleven). So there is more to say. But I'm not saying that the West doesn't make mistakes. In the Netherlands (also in America by the way) there were protests against the war in Vietnam. 
The problem is that many former Soviet countries want to be independent. But be afraid of Russia and apply for that membership. And when I see what is happening to Ukraine now, I understand.
There is no hatred towards the Russian people from the west. Even now they are not held responsible.
No western country wants to attack Russia.
For years (except for a few countries) Europe has been cutting back on their defenses because they thought there would be no more war with Russia. Even as Russia continued to expand its military.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 14:33 by thijsdegraaf »

« Reply #136 on: February 27, 2022, 14:26 »
+3

That's a different topic, and you may have a point.

Going back to Sadam, can you agree now that Sadam and Putin are doing the same thing, while the reaction to their aggressions is vastly different?

Once again, Im against any war at all costs.

The problem wit Sadam or Lybia, Afganistan ...and similar places is that however they were, what was brought after them is 100 times worse for people living there. Way more people died after that period, millions of people escaped a radical militant groups got the power.

Just compare photos of those places before and after interventions. They were brought back 500 years in the past and nobody gives a f..k

SVH

« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2022, 14:27 »
+1
...
... Donbas region will have an autonomous position within the Ukraine preserving the rights and safety of the ethnic russian population living there. That will also be the final solution to this matter. Or maybe just split up the country as they did with Yugoslavia if the situation is not resolvable in the end.

just what we need! another final solution
I am not offering a solution but predicting it.

By the way how much of the population east of the Djnepr really dislikes this intervention of Russia I wonder? There is a civil war going on since almost eight years now over there. According to the UN 13.000 lives were lost. Maybe it's good it will come to an end now, one way or the other. And maybe it will not be so bad to split the country. It seems to work in Yugoslavia right?


Aks1

    This user is banned.
« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2022, 14:44 »
0

Milosevic is hero! You can freely suck his you now what.

Milosevic is a corp who died in a prison cell as a war criminal.
The only war criminal are nazi Tudjman and  nazi Gotovina, who killed civilians during Oluja.

thijsdegraaf

« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2022, 14:50 »
+1

And please don't try to educate me about that war, I was personally in that war fighting against him and spent best years of my life under his gradates while the world was watching.


   

Thank you for sharing. I understand now why you have your reservations.
Yes, that's where we went wrong. Perhaps because it was first seen as an internal quarrel of a country falling apart after Tito.
Two years ago we were in Slovenia where the problems started. In 2015 we were in Trogir near Split and it was almost impossible to imagine what a misery it was there.
yes, both Trogir & Split are now (well deserved) tourist destinations.
or in Dubrovnik where much of 'old town' rooves were destroyed in the conflict, but little evidence now of the destruction.

I just took Vukovar and Sarajevo as examples because they were hit most. Vukovar was destroyed to the ground.

Cities on the coast took not even similar damage as the ones I mentioned.

Vukovar looked like this and civilians were hiding in basements for months under 1000s and 100s of grenades on daily basis. That is what war brings, and who wants it is not normal.



Yes terrible. Before the war we had been to Plitvice Lakes National Park. During the war I thought back to the fact that such a beautiful place was now in a war zone. At the time, it was hard for me to imagine what was going on in the beginning. One Yugoslav area fought against another. Not that one country was conquering another country. That realization came later.

« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2022, 14:51 »
0

That's a different topic, and you may have a point.

Going back to Sadam, can you agree now that Sadam and Putin are doing the same thing, while the reaction to their aggressions is vastly different?

Once again, Im against any war at all costs.

The problem wit Sadam or Lybia, Afganistan ...and similar places is that however they were, what was brought after them is 100 times worse for people living there. Way more people died after that period, millions of people escaped a radical militant groups got the power.

Just compare photos of those places before and after interventions. They were brought back 500 years in the past and nobody gives a f..k

Of course, we all are, except for a few Russian trolls who are justifying the invasion, using Putin's propaganda, his sophisms, and his fallacies.

The question is, what do you propose to do to stop the war and prevent an emboldened Putin to move to his next target, like Moldova, and more.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 19:11 by Zero Talent »

SVH

« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2022, 15:06 »
+1
By the way this how NATO grew towards the Russian border. And it was promised after the reunification of Germany it would not move further to Russia. NATO lied and did it anyway.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1460px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png

So maybe someone understands that having Ukraine joining NATO is maybe a step to far in this geopolitical game they are playing.

The EU is being stupid with their current sanctions and their expansion drift. they will hurt it's own economy. We will have major inflation because of energy and food costs soring when Russia will stop delivering gas and wheat. Our airlines, which were on the verge of bankruptcy already, will take a serious hit not being able to fly over Russia anymore as from tomorrow probably. So funny, that we try to cripple Russia's economy but we will hurt ourselves in the same process. And the US is the laughing third party. They will make money of us by selling their liquid gas and wheat at high prices. Europe, like in the financial crisis in 2008, will pay the price for the American wellfare and issues.

But then again, we still owe them money from the Marshall plans. So maybe it's justified :)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 15:10 by SVH »

marthamarks

« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2022, 15:28 »
+3
I'm not looking for support here, neither I'm here for hearts and minds of others.

I'm here to tell you that that much hate in you is disgusting and dangerous.

Well, then, that raises two questions:

#1. Why *are* you here if not to look for support for your beliefs and win over the hearts and minds of others? Did you actually join this forum just to rant about your grievances?

#2.  Are you really here *only* to inform me that I'm a hateful, disgusting, and dangerous person? Did you join this forum just to tell me that?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 15:52 by marthamarks »

« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2022, 15:46 »
0
After corona crisis and now Ukraine crisis i guess we probably will face an economic crisis next.
An economic crisis probably will affect sales a lot.

Yep, next up, internet/technology crisis. Financial crisis, to implement central bank and social credit system, like China has.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/expeditors-international-shuts-down-computer-systems-after-cyberattack-11645566461

marthamarks

« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2022, 15:51 »
+3

yes, both Trogir & Split are now (well deserved) tourist destinations.
or in Dubrovnik where much of 'old town' rooves were destroyed in the conflict, but little evidence now of the destruction.

My husband and I spent a week in Dubrovnik in 1974, long before the 1991-92 siege brought so much destruction to that lovely medieval city.

As we watched that calamity from afar, we looked back at the photos we'd taken there and mourned the old town we had enjoyed so much.

Which, for me, is yet another reason to grieve for what's happening to Ukraine's cities and countryside now, as well as to its people. The echoes of Dubrovnik and all of what was called "Yugoslavia" when we visited it are too close, too brutal.

« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2022, 15:52 »
+1
By the way this how NATO grew towards the Russian border. And it was promised after the reunification of Germany it would not move further to Russia. NATO lied and did it anyway.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg/1460px-History_of_NATO_enlargement.svg.png

So maybe someone understands that having Ukraine joining NATO is maybe a step to far in this geopolitical game they are playing.

The EU is being stupid with their current sanctions and their expansion drift. they will hurt it's own economy. We will have major inflation because of energy and food costs soring when Russia will stop delivering gas and wheat. Our airlines, which were on the verge of bankruptcy already, will take a serious hit not being able to fly over Russia anymore as from tomorrow probably. So funny, that we try to cripple Russia's economy but we will hurt ourselves in the same process. And the US is the laughing third party. They will make money of us by selling their liquid gas and wheat at high prices. Europe, like in the financial crisis in 2008, will pay the price for the American wellfare and issues.

But then again, we still owe them money from the Marshall plans. So maybe it's justified :)

Wrong. Go to reply #78 to get the facts, instead of Putin's propaganda. You can also ask Lizard to help you track that elusive treaty since he also came up with the same urban legend.

In Ukraine Conflict, Putin Relies on a Promise That Ultimately Wasnt https://nyti.ms/3zE2avP
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 19:11 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2022, 16:01 »
+10
AKS1 has been given a ban for rude and vulgar language.

SVH

« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2022, 16:06 »
+1
Wrong. Go to the reply #78 to get the facts, instead of Putin's propaganda. You can also ask Lizard to help you track that elusive treaty, since he also came up with the same urban legend.

In Ukraine Conflict, Putin Relies on a Promise That Ultimately Wasnt https://nyti.ms/3zE2avP


I know it was never put in writing but it was certainly promised.

And still it's about the big picture. You have two (actually three with China being third these days) super powers. One is creaping to the other and it will come to a point that the other will react to that. Like the US did in 1962 with the Cuba crisis. It would not allow the russians to come that close.

Obviously both parties will try to expand it's influence but it will have frictions now and then. As now it is the case with Ukraine.

Nothing more and nothing less.

p.s: I am not a subscriber to the New York times so I can't read the article you linked.

« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2022, 16:20 »
+1
Wrong. Go to the reply #78 to get the facts, instead of Putin's propaganda. You can also ask Lizard to help you track that elusive treaty, since he also came up with the same urban legend.

In Ukraine Conflict, Putin Relies on a Promise That Ultimately Wasnt https://nyti.ms/3zE2avP


I know it was never put in writing but it was certainly promised.

And still it's about the big picture. You have two (actually three with China being third these days) super powers. One is creaping to the other and it will come to a point that the other will react to that. Like the US did in 1962 with the Cuba crisis. It would not allow the russians to come that close.

Obviously both parties will try to expand it's influence but it will have frictions now and then. As now it is the case with Ukraine.

Nothing more and nothing less.

p.s: I am not a subscriber to the New York times so I can't read the article you linked.

No, it was never promised.
It was only a "what if", during negotiations.

If it was promised, but never made it in the treaty, that would made the Russians extremly gullible and naive.

Rest assured that Russians are anything but gullible or naive!
Even Americans live by the motto: "In God we trust, on paper we sign", let alone the Russians

PS. Go to reply #78 and read the main paragraphs I copied from the article.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2022, 16:24 by Zero Talent »

SVH

« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2022, 16:49 »
0
Wrong. Go to the reply #78 to get the facts, instead of Putin's propaganda. You can also ask Lizard to help you track that elusive treaty, since he also came up with the same urban legend.

In Ukraine Conflict, Putin Relies on a Promise That Ultimately Wasnt https://nyti.ms/3zE2avP


I know it was never put in writing but it was certainly promised.

And still it's about the big picture. You have two (actually three with China being third these days) super powers. One is creaping to the other and it will come to a point that the other will react to that. Like the US did in 1962 with the Cuba crisis. It would not allow the russians to come that close.

Obviously both parties will try to expand it's influence but it will have frictions now and then. As now it is the case with Ukraine.

Nothing more and nothing less.

p.s: I am not a subscriber to the New York times so I can't read the article you linked.

No, it was never promised.
It was only a "what if", during negotiations.

If it was promised, but never made it in the treaty, that would made the Russians extremly gullible and naive.

Rest assured that Russians are anything but gullible or naive!
Even Americans live by the motto: "In God we trust, on paper we sign", let alone the Russians

PS. Go to reply #78 and read the main paragraphs I copied from the article.

Well there was. Here is an article (November 2009, so well written before the Ukraine crisis and by a respected German newspaper) stating it clearly:
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/nato-s-eastward-expansion-did-the-west-break-its-promise-to-moscow-a-663315.html

Quotes:
"According to the German record of the conversation, which was only recently declassified, Genscher said: "We are aware that NATO membership for a unified Germany raises complicated questions. For us, however, one thing is certain: NATO will not expand to the east." And because the conversion revolved mainly around East Germany, Genscher added explicitly: "As far as the non-expansion of NATO is concerned, this also applies in general.""

"What the US secretary of state said on Feb. 9, 1990 in the magnificent St. Catherine's Hall at the Kremlin is beyond dispute. There would be, in Baker's words, "no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east," provided the Soviets agreed to the NATO membership of a unified Germany. Moscow would think about it, Gorbachev said, but added: "any extension of the zone of NATO is unacceptable.""

Obviously these quotes by the German and the American can be found elsewhere as well.


 

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