Author Topic: Extended Licenses and possible legal trouble at Envato (Read 12477 times)

cidepix · « **on:** November 14, 2012, 17:18 »

Edit: Title changed.. Reason explained below at posts #6 and #7..
previous title was: Pricing inconsistencies at Envato vol.2: Extended Licenses

Extended license prices for photos or vectors are so low at envato, that it is very open to abuse..

but this was probably discussed here before (I have to admit I didn't pay much attention)

- what makes their pricing worse is their license terms.. They offer much more than traditional agencies for much less money..

- what makes it even worse is that you can purchase a photo's extended license for $20, incorporate it in a brochure and that brochure's extended license cost $300

now excuse me

you pay $20 for an original photo, place it in your flyer, and flyer's extended license is 15 times more expensive

hell, the flyer isn't even original

it uses a photo which belongs to someone else..

that flyer should not offer an extended license in the first place.. how can someone collect $300 in extended license value for something they don't even own %100?

As soon as I discovered this, I disabled extended licenses on my items..

click_click · « **Reply #1 on:** November 14, 2012, 17:20 »

I disabled ELs on all Envato sites since day 1 because of this.

JPSDK · « **Reply #2 on:** November 14, 2012, 17:23 »

Good. Then there are reasonable folks among us.

cidepix · « **Reply #3 on:** November 14, 2012, 17:43 »

the more I look at it, the worse it gets..

Extra Small extended license is $8 at envato

god, what does size have anything to do with extended licenses?

medium size standard license cost twice as much at istockphoto..

THP Creative · « **Reply #4 on:** November 14, 2012, 19:28 »

they actually raised EL prices a while back from what I remember, it was even worse before.

The pricing on both PD and GR need to be rethought. Think they were just trying to gain traction with low prices, but they should really do a site wide audit of current pricing. ThemeForest for instance got price rises across the board a few months ago, some quite significant. Don't think it hurt sales one bit from all the BME talk on the forums there.

I like Envato, and think they have a really unique opportunity with how big their network of marketplaces is. I just really hope they start listening to their contributors a bit more and start implementing all these improvements and dev. projects they have been talking about for AGES.

Jo Ann Snover · « **Reply #5 on:** November 14, 2012, 20:03 »

Photo Dune EL prices are completely unreasonable. I opted out of ELs from day one and the small price increase made no difference from my perspective. Given that they have an opt out I think it's a very simple proposition. If they get buyers asking for ELs and enough contributors have opted out so they aren't available, they may be persuaded to bring their prices into line.

If they stick with their current EL pricing, I don't care as I'm not participating. We do have to watch that they don't in the future change the regular license to include things that are in the typical EL (one new agency was proposing that approach and I'm not at all in favor unless the price goes way up).

cidepix · « **Reply #6 on:** November 14, 2012, 20:36 »

Quote from: jsnover on November 14, 2012, 20:03

Photo Dune EL prices are completely unreasonable. I opted out of ELs from day one and the small price increase made no difference from my perspective. Given that they have an opt out I think it's a very simple proposition. If they get buyers asking for ELs and enough contributors have opted out so they aren't available, they may be persuaded to bring their prices into line.

If they stick with their current EL pricing, I don't care as I'm not participating. We do have to watch that they don't in the future change the regular license to include things that are in the typical EL (one new agency was proposing that approach and I'm not at all in favor unless the price goes way up).

I don't think I can be convinced by a price increase.. I have opted out and will stay that way no matter how much the price goes up..

with their current scheme the photographer/illustrator needs to be compensated multiple times, but they propose to do it only once.. so no matter how much the EL price, photogs are screwed anyway.. how? here is how:

flyers and brochures on graphicriver are full of photos from photodune.. (I don't mean the ones that only display photos for presentation purposes, I think that is totally fine, as long as the photo is not included in the download) but there are some that offer the photo in the download, because they purchased an extended license for a few bucks.. and they don't only offer standard license, but also the extended license for those brochures that contain photos..

yes the photographer is paid an extended license fee, but current scheme creates an infinite loop where the EL sale results in an EL offering, where that can create an EL offering as well.. the flyer creator buys an extended license from you (the photographer) for abysmal prices.. and places that photo in his flyer.. that flyer then sells an extended license for $300 and photographer is not paid a penny even though his/her photo is included in the DL.. So the complete $300 goes into the pocket of envato and the flyer creator without further compensation to the photographer.. the real problem starts here: the buyer who bought the EL for the flyer can include it in another larger project and may place it on Graphicriver for sale, and that item can include the photographer's photo as well.. this item will have an EL offering as well, but the BIG PROBLEM here is that the second buyer only compensated the flyer creator and not the photographer, hence he is the copyright violator, and you can sue him and win your case very easily.. the EL infinite loop must be stopped.. this is not like offering a simple standard license for your items that you purchased an EL..

how can the flyer creator (or template creator)receive EXTENDED LICENSE COMPENSATION for something he doesn't own.. ELs are all about copyright and ownership.. only the creator can get extended license payment.. These flyers could get away with"only if they don't offer an extended license at all".. but they do offer it..

there can not be a "made-up so called license" to cover this kind of abuse.. Look, I am not a photographer and this "probably" affects me less than you guys.. but this is plain wrong.. You can't just make up a license to cover something wrong that you are doing..

this issue isn't as simple as low EL prices I think.. If you are not the author of the photo, then you are not entitled to get paid EL fees for a download that includes the photo, no matter if you bought an extended license from the photographer.. you may be entitled to get standard license fees, but not EL.. there can not be an EL of an EL..

cidepix · « **Reply #7 on:** November 14, 2012, 21:23 »

in case my previous message was too long, here is a simplified version

(there is a wide open door for copyright violation here with the help of envato’s agreement..)

let's say you guys are not the photographers but the flyer creator who bought the EL for the photo.. because you are the only one who paid an EL fee to the photographer ONLY you should sell the image.. but you placed it in your flyer and that flyer also offers an EL.. in case someone buys an EL from you, then they have the photo + the EL which gives them the so-called right to sell it and offer another EL without paying the photographer, but only paying you..

you can't blame the last buyer for not paying the photographer, because he actually paid envato an EL fee and got the photo..

it came in his download, so he can sell it..

- infinite ELs and infinite copyright violations are created with a legal so called Extended license agreement..

it is not probable, but possible (for example) 5 people selling flyers with the same photo that came in the EL download that they bought from one another but only the first one paying the photographer..

solution? easy.. they should not offer an EL for a template that contains an item that came with an EL..

leaf · « **Reply #8 on:** November 15, 2012, 04:25 »

When you buy a flyer on envato, is all the source material made available? Or does it come complete as a flattened file in photoshop?

Microbius · « **Reply #9 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:02 »

As far as I can work out, if they have an extended license they can include your photo or illustration (even a vector) in a template. I have had trouble with this on there before, with someone giving away my vector in a flyer design, originally without even buying an EL, then they bought one when I picked them up on it. How do we deactivate extended licenses, I didn't know we even had that option

ETA okay, found the place and deactivated them

cidepix · « **Reply #10 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:25 »

Quote from: leaf on November 15, 2012, 04:25

When you buy a flyer on envato, is all the source material made available? Or does it come complete as a flattened file in photoshop?

allright then, I wasn't going to post a link actually, because I didn't want the flyer designer to be harassed since it is not his fault.. because envato staff actually backed him up by providing links to their agreement saying it's ok.. and he told me he only plays by envato's rules, his intention is definitely not bad which is correct because envato did support him when I mentioned this issue..

http://graphicriver.net/item/long-play-party-posterflyer/2629372?WT.ac=portfolio_thumb&WT.seg_1=portfolio_thumb&WT.z_author=moodboy

you can see "photo is included" line

you can also see in the description:
■Simple to Customize
■Well Organized Layers
■Photo of model is included

which means anyone can easily extract the photo from the PSD file.. which makes it possible for another designer to extract the photo and place it in another graphic design project which he can sell (since he bought an EL from this flyer designer and the photo came in the download he paid $300) so without compensating the photographer, the 2nd designer can sell the same photo..

I am kind of getting bored with this as it takes long sentences to explain

but there is definitely a wide open door here for copyright violations and I won't give up until every photographer realizes this is the biggest screw up in their microstock career..

cidepix · « **Reply #11 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:38 »

Quote from: Microbius on November 15, 2012, 05:02

As far as I can work out, if they have an extended license they can include your photo or illustration (even a vector) in a template. I have had trouble with this on there before, with someone giving away my vector in a flyer design, originally without even buying an EL, then they bought one when I picked them up on it. How do we deactivate extended licenses, I didn't know we even had that option

ETA okay, found the place and deactivated them

They should NOT be able to do it even with an EL.. because they offer EL's for those templates which gives the template buyer a right to "also" distribute your vector since it came in his download.. without paying you again..

- the EL for the flyer costs $300
- ELs for wordpress themes cost thousands of dollars starting at $2000

in case theme designer sells an EL of the template that has your vector, you are not paid a dime..

it becomes a disgrace if the buyer of the theme includes your vector into another item for sale on graphicriver or elsewere.. here you have the "infinite loop" of ELs which I was talking about, but without compensating the photographer or illustrator multiple times, hence resulting in clear copyright violation..

Microbius · « **Reply #12 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:42 »

I really get the impression that the guys that run Envato are nice people, but utterly clueless about this business. Now they have become successful they need to sit down and actually do some joined up thinking about their licensing, attitude to copyright violations, pricing and so one.
It seems like it's a bunch of kids running the show at the moment.

cidepix · « **Reply #13 on:** November 15, 2012, 05:49 »

Quote from: Microbius on November 15, 2012, 05:42

I really get the impression that the guys that run Envato are nice people, but utterly clueless about this business. Now they have become successful they need to sit down and actually do some joined up thinking about their licensing, attitude to copyright violations, pricing and so one.
It seems like it's a bunch of kids running the show at the moment.

I agree.. They really show that they are nice people but they have to realize they are violating copyright as it currently stands.. I hope they sort it out soon so no one gets into trouble..

I want that site to get things right because I see good earnings potential there..
it is un-contributable at the moment

by starting this thread I am actually attempting to protect envato from MAJOR copyright violations, if they can see it of course..

cidepix · « **Reply #14 on:** November 15, 2012, 06:01 »

another thing that bothers me is a lot of designers use photos to present their templates saying "photo is not included".. that's ok.. photo is not included.. but you are using it as an element that will help you sell the file, so at least provide a link to the photo for god's sake..

they have to make it "compulsory" to provide a link to the image(s) used..

Microbius · « **Reply #15 on:** November 15, 2012, 07:37 »

Quote from: cidepix on November 15, 2012, 05:38

.....They should NOT be able to do it even with an EL.. because they offer EL's for those templates which gives the template buyer a right to "also" distribute your vector since it came in his download.. without paying you again..
......

Oh yeah agree 100%, sometimes the flyer costs the same as a vector would, who would buy the vector when they can buy the flyer and get both?

Pixart · « **Reply #16 on:** November 15, 2012, 10:30 »

This is a dodgey grey theft of intellectual property and envato is condoning it.

And while we are at it, why is an extended license of a photo $24 while an el of a flyer is $300?

cidepix · « **Reply #17 on:** November 15, 2012, 11:24 »

Quote from: Pixart on November 15, 2012, 10:30

This is a dodgey grey theft of intellectual property and envato is condoning it.

And while we are at it, why is an extended license of a photo $24 while an el of a flyer is $300?

if the EL of a photo is expensive then flyer designer can't get it and flyers will look worse.. taking advantage of photographers while not compensating them as they deserve..

Even if they raise the EL commission of the photos to $1000, it still doesn't protect photographer's copyright.. it is creating a vicious circle of EL, of an EL, of an EL, of an EL which is a CLEAR copyright violation supported by site's so called agreements..

click_click · « **Reply #18 on:** November 15, 2012, 11:43 »

Quote from: leaf on November 15, 2012, 04:25

When you buy a flyer on envato, is all the source material made available? Or does it come complete as a flattened file in photoshop?

AFAIK most of the time the good looking content (images, photos, illustrations) are not included in the downloadable file - which may be mentioned in the product description.

If the images were included in the downloadable file it would break the current rules of Envato - that's my understanding.

If I remember correctly, sellers of wordpress, flyers, business card designs etc. are supposed to link to the images used to the other Envato site where it originally came from.

Please someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Now before cidepix has a heart attack I suggest to disable all ELs. That should take care of most of the problems for now.

Envato did listen to contributors before and I strongly hope they will do it again.

The EL licensing terms need to be revamped as well as the EL pricing.

I don't have a problem that the design ELs are priced higher but the photo ELs should be significantly higher in the first place.

I don't mind photo ELs for $100 and flyer ELs for $300 as long as there are no photos included from anyone other than the flyer designer him- or herself.

Flyer buyers (LOL) should be able to get the flyer EL for $300 (or maybe lower?) without the stunning images because the buyer would have to find their own suitable stock images (most likely) anyway and therefore they can license them on Photodune or wherever.

It would even be a win-win for Envato and the copyright issue would be out the window.

Current buyers won't be too happy about it but it sure can't go on the way it works right now.

Pixart · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2012, 13:36 »

I was worried the the EL buyer would have some twisted copyright claims to the material, but the EL states

k.If the Work contains component items, those items must only be used within the Work and you must not extract and use them on a stand-alone basis.

For example, if a magazine template contains photos, those photos can only be used within the end magazine product; you must not copy those photos outside of the magazine you create.

cidepix · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2012, 14:17 »

Quote from: Pixart on November 15, 2012, 13:36

k.If the Work contains component items, those items must only be used within the Work and you must not extract and use them on a stand-alone basis.

For example, if a magazine template contains photos, those photos can only be used within the end magazine product; you must not copy those photos outside of the magazine you create.

that line is under standard license so yes you can't do it with a standard license..

but, I missed the bolded words under extended license:

ii.if the Work is a template or software application, you use it alone to modify it and Resell it as an end product (that is, not as a tool, template, or stock item, and without source files);

I was mad when I saw so many photos being distributed on flyers with EL offerings.. I still don't like how the images are distributed.. it is still open to abuse.. If I missed the line, anyone can miss it..

I think they must still change their terms and conditions to make sure photos and vectors can only be used for demonstration purposes and not included in the download..

template creators are obviously using them as a selling point by only paying the artist $8 for EL and including them in the download.. when that template is sold, the template creator gets $2000 or more dollars while the photos (which probably were the reason the template looked so nice) gets %0 of that revenue and end up being distributed..

If you are asking people to exclude source material, then why give the source material to them in the first place? pixart, would you give your high resolution photos to me on an external hard-drive and tell me not to use them

Pixart · « **Reply #21 on:** November 15, 2012, 21:08 »

Oh, no prob. Send me your address and I'll send the extra keys to my porsche also- but promise you won't drive it.

LanceSnider · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2012, 16:01 »

Hi Everyone. I'm Lance Snider from Envato. Hopefully I can shed some light on the reasoning behind this decision. Either way, I really appreciate the feedback.

1. What is the extended license for
The most common use of the extended license is to put it in an end product that will be sold, like a game, app, or even a magazine. That said, we wanted to give theme authors more options when developing and photo authors another type of potential client.

2. Is there a potentially infinite loop of EL's
No. Because the item must be incorporated into a larger project, the chain can only go so far. For example, if you put a photo in a flyer, that's it. You can't really take a flyer and make it into a 'larger project.' This infinite loop was something we were super worried about so we tried to come up with as many hypotheticals as we could. The longest string we could come up with was 3, but even that was super rare.

3. Extracting the photos
As was mentioned earlier in the thread, you couldn't pull the photos out of a flyer template and use them on their own or in other project.

4. Using photos in template previews, but not the download
There are cases where an author will use a photo in the preview, but not the download. We give authors 2 options. 1) Buy the photo, but link to where it can be purchased in the documentation. As long as you purchase the item, I don't know of any stock photo site that requires you to credit the author in a single-use situation like this. 2) Use the watermarked version and link back to the author. We did this to help cross-promote things like photos on popular files from ThemeForest and the other sites.

5. Opting out
We definitely understand that the license isn't perfect for everyone. That's why we've included the ability to opt out.

I wasn't 100% clear whether the issue was the price or that this option exists at all. For example, if it were much more expensive, would you still opt out to avoid your files being used in this way?

I'll be very interested to hear your comments!

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Author Topic: Extended Licenses and possible legal trouble at Envato (Read 12477 times)

cidepix

click_click

JPSDK

cidepix

THP Creative

Jo Ann Snover

cidepix

cidepix

leaf

Microbius

cidepix

cidepix

Microbius

cidepix

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Microbius

Pixart

cidepix

click_click

Pixart

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Pixart

LanceSnider

joshsprague

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