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Author Topic: Keywording service now available at picWorkflow!  (Read 23299 times)

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« on: December 09, 2010, 00:04 »
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Hey All :)

I'll be adding a Keywording service to picWorkflow in the next few days.

It will allow you to both submit your images for keywording, and earn by keywording other's images (though keyworders will be subject to approval beforehand and within an ongoing QC process).

I'm wondering how many people are interested in keywording for the system, and how many would be interested in purchasing the keywording process (it's been heavily requested by existing picWorkflow suggestions already but I'd like to get a broader view).

If you want to keyword images, how much would you expect to earn per image?
If you want images keyworded, how much would you expect to pay (and for how many keywords)?

Thanks :)


Edited: 18th Jan 2011

The service is now active, I've tried to incorporate a lot of the suggestions from you guys and gals, and I've added a pricing system which makes it possible to earn more and more for better performance. Info here:

http://blog.picniche.com/featured/stock-photo-keywording-in-just-3-clicks-with-picworkflow/
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 06:21 by bobbigmac »


« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 12:01 »
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Interest either way?

« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 12:36 »
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Hi there

Would this be a system similar to DT with a smiliar price?

Oldhand

« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 14:13 »
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Would this be a system similar to DT with a smiliar price?

You will simply add a process to each image (or selection of several images) you want keyworded, specifying the number of keywords you desire and the keyworders will keyword them before your files are uploaded by the picWorkflow system.

I'm looking to provide it cheaper than any other keywording service, although precisely how much it will cost is yet to be decided and is to be determined by finding the mid-point between what photographers are willing to pay, and what keyworders are interested in accepting as payment. Please let me know, whichever camp you are in, how much that that will be :)

« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 15:26 »
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One suggestion on payment could be to be paid in picniche uploading credits.  That way people could upload for 'free' by keywording a few images.  

Perhaps you could also have a rating system so the people who had their images keyworded could rate how good the keywords were.  People with the highest rating would earn more.

I like to keyword my own images, so I am not sure any price would really be low enough, but just throwing some numbers out ... I'm not sure I'd pay much more than $0.25/image for keywording for say 25 words, and probably wouldn't spend time keywording someone else's images unless I was paid $0.50/image .... you start to see the problem :)  But keywording I am sure is a valuable service for those who don't have English as their first language.

However, people living in cheaper countries to live in than Norway (and people actually looking for a job) would probably be happier being paid a lot less/image.  I think a person could easily earn a fair wage at $0.25/image.  
« Last Edit: December 11, 2010, 15:28 by leaf »

« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 16:31 »
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The current design is for payment to be in picWorkflow regular paid credits so the credits can be transferred out to paypal once the limit is reached.

There is a rating system of a sort, though there isn't much room to be paid more (picWorkflow will only keep 10% to start with so not a lot to give up after that). But I will be tracking keyworder performance and futher activites for more earnings will only be available to the best keyworders: captioning, review tasks and perhaps things like categorisation and keyword disambiguation will follow.

The cost will be lowered by making the interface for the keyworder as effective as possible for keywording many images at once. There will not be a critically high quality bar, but again, the best keyworders (every keywording task may be rated for quality by the purchasers) so a certain level of quality will be built into the system and moreso over time.

Just from my own tests here on the first-stage keywording platform, it's perfectly feasible for a keyworder to earn between $6-$12 per hour depending on the final payment structure, the keyworders proficiency and the level of demand for the service (corresponding to a cost to the keyword-purchaser of somewhere between 0.4-0.8 cents per keyword).

« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 18:31 »
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that sounds like you have a decent system in place. 

If the keyworder is able to make between $6-12/hour then I am sure you'll get some takers. 

« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 21:23 »
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I'd keyword for 10$ an hour, for sure.

« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2010, 00:38 »
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1h means how many pictures?

« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2010, 02:57 »
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depends on you I guess:)

« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2010, 03:56 »
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i would prefer to see the stats tool is up.. something like a chart of sales..

i found that will bring more users..

« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2010, 04:28 »
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depends on you I guess:)

that's true :)

I haven't read properly, Bob wants to pay per picture, honestly I would join this once a little more income would be nice, I would do 1h per day easily

« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2010, 07:14 »
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The keyworder will se only a small preview? Or you will add a good watermark?

« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2010, 14:08 »
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The keyworder will se only a small preview? Or you will add a good watermark?
The keyworders will see A thumbnail with very thorough watermark on mouseover.
You can see the watermarked version which will be shown by clicking on the micro-thumb for any of your files in the process page.

« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2010, 14:11 »
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i would prefer to see the stats tool is up.. something like a chart of sales..

i found that will bring more users..
Don't worry, I'm working on both :) Just my first priority is on making the service sustainable by attracting people who pay for stuff first. I also see keywording as having the largest possible time-saving for a single task. Stats save time for some people, but is 'really' only necessary before end of each fiscal year, whereas keywording can save a lot more time for a lot more people immediately :)

« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2010, 15:00 »
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Have a look at mturk.com and cloudcrowd. You need a very good workflow, otherwise it will take to long to access the jobs, and this will be a big time thief. Cloudcrowd has a good workflow, where accessing and completing tasks require few clicks. Mturk is more convoluted, and often the process of accessing a task takes more time than finishing it.
Googles image labeler is quick and fun to use.

One big time saver for the keyworder would be if you could add keywords to a lot of pics at once. E.g. see 20-30 thumbs at once and label them easily with "person, people, female" etc. Entering keywords for single images will take too much time. That is your big advantage if you get a lot of people to use this feature: you will have access to a lot of pictures and the work flow can be very effective.

« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2010, 19:23 »
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Googles image labeler is quick and fun to use.

This was what first put me onto the idea, and although not directly replicating that service (as it's terribly inefficient when dealing with multiple similar images) I do have it's speed and focus in mind.

One big time saver for the keyworder would be if you could add keywords to a lot of pics at once. E.g. see 20-30 thumbs at once and label them easily with "person, people, female" etc. Entering keywords for single images will take too much time.

This is the sole reason I am willing to make such tasks available. Single image keywording is foolishly slow, and part of the reason it's such a PITA for microstockers in general is that not one agency has a decent UI for it (and don't get me started on controlled vocabulary ;)). Hence why I created one, and will continue to improve it based on the feedback from keyworders :)

« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2011, 06:24 »
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The picWorkflow keywording service is now active, I've tried to incorporate a lot of the suggestions and comments from you guys and gals (thank you very much :)), and I've added a pricing system which rewards quality keywording and makes it possible to earn more for better performance.

Info here:

http://blog.picniche.com/featured/stock-photo-keywording-in-just-3-clicks-with-picworkflow/

I'll also be adding other services soon, and there is something of a 'promotion' tree for people who want to be operators, and of course more options for photographers who want to cut down the time and effort taken to process images before they can get up and for sale :)

What do you think?

« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2011, 07:25 »
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Images need to be uploaded to picworkflow first and pay a storage fee in addtion to the keywording Service?

« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2011, 07:38 »
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They have to be uploaded to picWorkflow, but you do not need to pay to store them, they are stored by default for free for 7 days and all tasks purchasing keywording also get an extra 2 days free storage.

The only other charge is for the subsequent distribution, but as soon as I know what point I can afford to put it at, I will reedem a proportion of the amount spent on keywording into free distribution credits.

If you also don't want to pay for distribution afterwards, you can export the metadata as csv/tsv to import to your own library.

« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2011, 13:40 »
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Why not create something where you can view images from different stock agencies in your site (picworkflow) instead of uploading the images and offer the keyword service that way. Keywords can be added, edit or removed from images that has been approved by the stock agency. Much better than having images keyworded  and getting a rejection for whatever reason by the stock agency.

« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2011, 13:44 »
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Simply because microstock agencies make it impossible to do that: partly because they require images be keyworded before submission, but also because they are currently completely unwilling to collaborate with anyone who also make it easier for "their" contributors to submit anywhere else.

The addition of the meta-tagger to the picNiche toolbar (soon) will however make it feasible to audit or enhance your keywords for previously submitted images by using the picWorkflow service.

« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 12:37 »
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Bob,
Your keywording service is a great idea, I'm trying immediately with one photo to see the results, it could be very useful for a person like me: English is not my native language and I'm traveling often this year!

« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 13:20 »
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Thanks, I hope it's useful to you :)

If you have any requests, suggestions or questions, please let me know :)

« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2011, 12:06 »
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Hi Bob,
I don't know how to copy and paste the keywords from your site to my files on the computer: there's no possibility of copy/paste and keywords are not separated by comma!
I notice also the impossibility to reduce pictures size for shutterstock and other subscription site, it's easy to add and very useful, without that, I can't use picworlfow.
I don't understand also why we must write the copyright for each picture, it's waste of time.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:09 by Smithore »

« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2011, 12:31 »
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I don't know how to copy and paste the keywords from your site to my files on the computer: there's no possibility of copy/paste and keywords are not separated by comma!
They can be copy-pasted for a single file if clicking the [num] link on the metadata view (will show a dialog in the center of the screen, where keywords are shown (ie. not the edit view)).

The better option though is to use the 'Export Metadata' tool (bottom middle on process page) to generate a spreadsheet (csv or tsv) in your desired format for all selected files (or of course to export source files to your own ftp). There are many tools (some free some not so free) which can then be used to re-apply the metadata to your local sources. I'd like to build something for this into the picNiche toolbar though it's a very complex build so for now I defer to the many desktop apps which already do a great job of it.

I notice also the impossibility to reduce pictures size for shutterstock and other subscription site, it's easy to add and very useful, without that, I can't use picworlfow.
This is coming very soon (hopefully will have time this weekend), though it's not as easy as it first sounds because of the traffic and cpu requirement to perform the resize when hosting 'in the cloud'. I am also adding the ability to retain original filenames when distributed so will release these at the same time as they face more-or-less the same technical issue.

I don't understand also why we must write the copyright for each picture, it's waste of time.
If an image is uploaded & imported without the copyright field specified, picWorkflow will automatically set your copyright field based on the value you have most often used previously. (If you have only imported a single batch on which all files had no copyright field set, then you won't have seen this, but it is set on following imports). The copyright field is settable per-file because people often attribute their files differently (company name, personal name, wife/hubby, business partner, etc etc) depending on who they are exporting to, or on the type of file (footage/illustration/photo/etc).

Does that help? :)

« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2011, 12:36 »
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Ok,
I've found the export data on csv before your answer but it's not easy to copy and paste and i've found more keywords than on the site!! Some keywords are not corresponding to any pictures, so i will try the selection.
thank you.

« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2011, 12:41 »
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The most practical export settings for what you want to do is probably:

tsv (tab separated).
Empty filter field.

Then export string of:
[orig_filename],[title],[description],[keywords]

[filename] gives the picworkflow token (most important if for example uploading a meta text-file after footage export to shutterstock/canstock) whereas [orig_filename] gives the name of the source file when you uploaded it to pw.

Bob :)

Edit: since the addition of the keywording service, this is the most likely required export format for which there is no preset (there are SS and CanStockPhoto presets), so I have set it as the default selection for all 'new' metadata exports.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:45 by bobbigmac »

« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2011, 12:51 »
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Thanks, but it's too complicated to use and take long time, also visibility is impossible: title, description and keywords are mixed on the same line and i hate csv.
Also, there's the other problems of new keywords appearing, some files have now 54 keywords instead of 40! that's a real mess!

I've copied and pasted from the keywords number and it's ok.


Oups, sorry Bob, there's no Alamy distribution on picworkflow?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:53 by Smithore »

« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2011, 13:33 »
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Thanks, but it's too complicated to use and take long time, also visibility is impossible: title, description and keywords are mixed on the same line and i hate csv.
Export .tsv instead of .csv and the tab separator makes sure excel/openoffice displays them correctly. (ie. it won't split the keywords into individual columns)

Also, there's the other problems of new keywords appearing, some files have now 54 keywords instead of 40! that's a real mess!
Thanks, caught a bug there, some files were outputting removed keywords too. I've updated the database query to now export the correct keywords for all files. :)

Oups, sorry Bob, there's no Alamy distribution on picworkflow?
Not yet, I've contacted them twice but still have heard nothing back.
If you'd like alamy added, please contact them and request that they allow picWorkflow access on your behalf and maybe they'll get a move on and get back to me :)

« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2011, 15:29 »
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There are many tools (some free some not so free) which can then be used to re-apply the metadata to your local sources.

Can you give links to something like that or suggest google terms to search to find them?  I'd love to have access to something like that but I'm even sure what term to search for.  I would be trying to get them into lightroom.

« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2011, 15:53 »
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try searching for terms like "freeware image metadata tool", "open source metadata sync", "exif sync tool", etc etc. There are others more familiar with that process than me. I tend to code my own apps or scripts for stuff like that, but only occasionally make them stable and 'pretty' enough for general release (if you tried the picNiche Image Deck you'll see what I mean ;)).

I hope to add 'sync-back' support for purchased keywords to the picWorkflow Lightroom export plugin, but at the moment the Lightroom api just doesn't quite support it.

« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2011, 10:35 »
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Bob, I don't have time actually to contact Alamy, if you already tried two times without success, it's not me who gonna change something.
As you are the developer of picworkflow, it's up to you...

We have actually two isyndica remplacement: one permit to send to all photography agencies and don't permit to video ones, the other (picworkflow) missing alamy and resize pictures option.

« Reply #33 on: January 30, 2011, 14:59 »
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Bob, I don't have time actually to contact Alamy, if you already tried two times without success, it's not me who gonna change something.
As you are the developer of picworkflow, it's up to you...

Much of the 'behaviour' of agencies is determined by their contributors, they are resistant to third-party companies... simply put, if you want your agencies to provide better services, demand it of them. I can only work within the boundaries they set :/

« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2011, 06:07 »
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I notice also the impossibility to reduce pictures size for shutterstock and other subscription site, it's easy to add and very useful, without that, I can't use picworlfow.
Thanks.

I have updated picWorkflow to let you specify for a destination the resolution (in steps of 1 megapixel) each image will be uploaded at. If any image uploaded is larger than the size you specify it will be downsized at 100% jpeg quality before uploading.

It will size as close to the megapixel as it can whilst still staying slightly above that number (so you can upload safely at an agency minimum), and will keep the frame divisible by a 'safe' number of pixels to avoid recompression artifacts (usually a size divisible by 4, but sometimes the height will cause a size divisible by 6/8).

It has also been requested to have an option to keep original filenames on export, this has been added too.
You can find both these settings on the credential management page under the 'Edit' panel for each configured destination.



Does that help Smithore? :)

« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2011, 06:59 »
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Great BOB!
I 'll test it tomorrow!!!
Just alamy is missing and after it's ok for me!  ;D

thanks bob

« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2011, 12:04 »
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I notice also the impossibility to reduce pictures size for shutterstock and other subscription site, it's easy to add and very useful, without that, I can't use picworlfow.
Thanks.

I have updated picWorkflow to let you specify for a destination the resolution (in steps of 1 megapixel) each image will be uploaded at. If any image uploaded is larger than the size you specify it will be downsized at 100% jpeg quality before uploading.

It will size as close to the megapixel as it can whilst still staying slightly above that number (so you can upload safely at an agency minimum), and will keep the frame divisible by a 'safe' number of pixels to avoid recompression artifacts (usually a size divisible by 4, but sometimes the height will cause a size divisible by 6/8).

It has also been requested to have an option to keep original filenames on export, this has been added too.
You can find both these settings on the credential management page under the 'Edit' panel for each configured destination.



Does that help Smithore? :)

Excellent. Thanks for that Bob. I'm enjoying using the service, great to see this new development.

« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2011, 18:46 »
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Bob, maybe there is a glitch :
-I've sent a file on shutterstock using your downsize tool to 10mpx and the pictures doesn't appear in the shutterstock queue, it seems it's not uploaded!
the same picture not downsized is at the queue at the others sites.

« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2011, 19:52 »
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It's definitely uploaded and received (log shows correct raw data transferred), but Shutterstock are not currently importing files from their FTP server to user accounts. (Most likely some problem or maintenance on their end).

To double check I've tested several other upload methods and this is the same for files uploaded via FTP for regular software, browser and picWorkflow. Doesn't happen often but the files should appear whenever they fix whatever is broken (I've seen a similar issue for upto a couple of hours at their end, but usually not much more than that).

Edit: My test files finally appeared in Shutterstock account around 7am (GMT), meaning about 7 hours delay or downtime on the ss server.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:28 by bobbigmac »

« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2011, 12:53 »
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Thanks bob, it's ok for me too, shutter was in late...

« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2011, 13:40 »
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Good to hear, thanks for letting me know :)

« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2011, 06:21 »
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As I alluded earlier in this thread, picWorkflow now offers free microstock distribution for images when you purchase keywords through the keywording service:

http://blog.picniche.com/featured/free-microstock-distribution-with-picworkflow/

I have also added an new account policy where your account will be credited with 40 free credits each month (if you spent any the previous month).


 

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