We're a recent start-up and although we're not into the microstock model we did had a similar discussion with our legal contact concerning these type of issues when we went through our policies. These cases affect the whole stock industry and is not only against Yuri's microstock agency.

The following is my personal opinion after a brief contact with our legal today;

- the jurisdiction is important where this case is going to take place
- were there similar cases and what was the outcome of those ?
- were the glasses in question the main subject of the images ?
- do the glasses make or break an image trying to communicate something to the viewer ?
- the EU has specific IP laws which could help both parties in this case
- law in many IP cases is subject to interpretation and reasoning by judges
- buyer agreed to responsibility for enduse aim or publisher takes responsibility in contract ?

Those are just a few important things to consider and try to answer to even get close to understanding what is in play here and the importance for many in our industry.

I wish Yuri a strong defense and hopefully a positive outcome without dragging too long !

I've been following similar threads related to these issues in the past and it seems to be all repeating as usual. This is one of the reasons we started our own macrostock agency as one can't simply trust anymore on most players offering to sell your images. I hope we will make a difference, even if we only started this summer from scratch it's a longterm initiative.

There was a post in a thread on the Alamy forum also pointing to this specific thread where the discussion went about buyers buying for a high price images from Alamy and then later finding out the same image on a microstock for a couple of bucks or less. How would you feel as a buyer when you discover that microstock images are mixed with a collection like Alamy ? No disrespect here for the micro's, but at the longterm this will damage all of us as photographers and buyers, no matter what branch you supply to.

And a thank you for the MSG forum for allowing discussions and not censoring them like some other places where threads disappear overnight !

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 30, 2012, 19:55

Quote from: graphxt on August 30, 2012, 18:07

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 30, 2012, 17:52

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 20:32

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 20:09

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 16:27

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 15:09

QuoteQ: What is your refund policy ? A: You can request a refund within 7 days from purchase and as long as the image was not used.
Please delete the image and all copies when a refund is confirmed by GraphXT. The refund will be made minus any financial fees involved depending on the original payment method.

I found that interesting. What is your strategy to ensure the image isn't being used? 3 people couldn't possibly hope to scour the web and all printed media to spot illegal usage.

I would love to see a "fresh approach" in which the agency looks out for photographers with a no refund policy.

There is no 100 % garantee, even the biggest names in the market are not able to offer a 100 % garantee on these things, that is the truth. On the other side, we stick to the policy and legal agreement which can be enforced if abused by malicious buyers.

Yes I know, that why rights managed doesn't really work when marketed internationally via the web. There is no way to ensure the license isn't being violated even for the big names. Royalty free is the only reasonable approach for web based stock agencies because of that.

The point isn't guaranteeing against licensing violations anyway. The point is the refund policy. Offering money back on an image that has already been downloaded is not a "fresh approach" I won't be involved.

Then our views differ but i respect your opinion. By law in The Netherlands if you buy something "remote" then you are required to offer a 7 day refund. For this type of goods it can ofcourse only be offered if the buyer decided not to use the image. This is something we also carefully investigated with legal to make sure we comply to the law here in NL (EU).

Then the law in the Netherlands should change. It's the 21st century. Refunds are issued when the goods purchased are returned. Here, you can't get the purchased image back. It's nothing but digital information and the buyer can easily copy, copy and recopy the information without losing any of the data. Imagine buying a product, returning to the store and getting a refund but then getting to keep the product. If only it worked that way for cars and expensive jewelery.

The bottom line is, if you can't track or reclaim the image, which is impossible by your own admission, then you should offer no refund UNLESS you give the refund but allow the photographer to keep the commission they've earned. If you take the financial burden of the refund on your own shoulders 100% then I would concede it's an OK policy and a fresh approach. But I can guess who gets hit for the refund.

I agree with you, i wish the laws would be more accommodating when it comes to these type of digital goods. It's an uphill battle for several industries to find a solution against pirating software, media and so on. But so far nothing is able to offer 100 % protection or garantees.
We'll be watching and hoping there will be more protection for artists and entities creating digital goods. All what most people can do is hopefully vote on parties who may change this for the better, but without sacrificing the freedom and rights of the internet and its users.

If you're going to do business under Netherland law, how will you handle international purchases? Will you work in Euros? Will contributors be paid in Euros? How will you handle tax? This is from expatax website:

QuoteIf you live in the Netherlands, you qualify as a resident taxpayer. If you live abroad and receive income from the Netherlands that is taxable in the Netherlands, you qualify as a non-resident taxpayer. In both cases, you will be subject to Dutch income tax.

It's all taken care of when a buyer or photographer registers he can select his tax status as a person / business / in or outside the EU / business in NL. It's one of the parts we've
worked out with legal to make sure this is done according the law.

PS: It depends also on how much time you spent abroad, in general if you live more than 6 months in a non-NL territory then you pay taxes to the country where you are. Even if you receive income generated from work / business in NL you still pay the taxes to the country where you spend most of your time. On top of that most countries including NL have treaties with other countries so you do not get double taxed for example. But at the end, you know your tax status best and when you fill out the registration details including photog agreement it is legally binding.

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 30, 2012, 17:52

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 20:32

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 20:09

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 16:27

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 15:09

QuoteQ: What is your refund policy ? A: You can request a refund within 7 days from purchase and as long as the image was not used.
Please delete the image and all copies when a refund is confirmed by GraphXT. The refund will be made minus any financial fees involved depending on the original payment method.

I found that interesting. What is your strategy to ensure the image isn't being used? 3 people couldn't possibly hope to scour the web and all printed media to spot illegal usage.

I would love to see a "fresh approach" in which the agency looks out for photographers with a no refund policy.

There is no 100 % garantee, even the biggest names in the market are not able to offer a 100 % garantee on these things, that is the truth. On the other side, we stick to the policy and legal agreement which can be enforced if abused by malicious buyers.

Yes I know, that why rights managed doesn't really work when marketed internationally via the web. There is no way to ensure the license isn't being violated even for the big names. Royalty free is the only reasonable approach for web based stock agencies because of that.

The point isn't guaranteeing against licensing violations anyway. The point is the refund policy. Offering money back on an image that has already been downloaded is not a "fresh approach" I won't be involved.

Then our views differ but i respect your opinion. By law in The Netherlands if you buy something "remote" then you are required to offer a 7 day refund. For this type of goods it can ofcourse only be offered if the buyer decided not to use the image. This is something we also carefully investigated with legal to make sure we comply to the law here in NL (EU).

Then the law in the Netherlands should change. It's the 21st century. Refunds are issued when the goods purchased are returned. Here, you can't get the purchased image back. It's nothing but digital information and the buyer can easily copy, copy and recopy the information without losing any of the data. Imagine buying a product, returning to the store and getting a refund but then getting to keep the product. If only it worked that way for cars and expensive jewelery.

The bottom line is, if you can't track or reclaim the image, which is impossible by your own admission, then you should offer no refund UNLESS you give the refund but allow the photographer to keep the commission they've earned. If you take the financial burden of the refund on your own shoulders 100% then I would concede it's an OK policy and a fresh approach. But I can guess who gets hit for the refund.

I agree with you, i wish the laws would be more accommodating when it comes to these type of digital goods. It's an uphill battle for several industries to find a solution against pirating software, media and so on. But so far nothing is able to offer 100 % protection or garantees.
We'll be watching and hoping there will be more protection for artists and entities creating digital goods. All what most people can do is hopefully vote on parties who may change this for the better, but without sacrificing the freedom and rights of the internet and its users.

Quote from: Poncke on August 30, 2012, 16:45
You have no photos, you have no buyers, thats the point. Nobody will submit, you have nothing to show for and nothing to offer.

As i write this several people already signed up and contacted us. People have only their time to lose by uploading to us while we on the other hand have everything to lose as that is the nature of this business specifically.

Patience, longterm strategy and investing are key to this. I'm sure you know many other (online) businesses who also started from scratch with no buyers or where the bets are against them. But that is the very nature of starting something, if it was so easy then we'd probably all be somewhere else instead of discussing this on a forum.

Quote from: Poncke on August 30, 2012, 08:45

Quote from: graphxt on August 30, 2012, 02:26

Quote from: Mantis on August 30, 2012, 01:18

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 14:12

Quote from: ShadySue on August 28, 2012, 13:53

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 13:31

It is our believe that a diverse but quality collection will work just like if one specializes in a specific segment. We're currently with 3 including myself working on this so that is why we can be there for our photographers and buyers every day.

So, three of you are working 8 hour shifts to provide worldwide customers service during their working hours. Nice, and better than at least one large micro. What is one of you is sick or wants a day off? Are the other two willing to take up the slack? What if all three get e.g. norovirus at the same time?

We have a backup for such events, it's not like we just started yesterday thinking about these issues :-) But a good point anyway !

Not like you started yesterday but you have not a functioning site so you haven't even started tomorrow.  Way to premature for you to be marketing your site in my opinion.

We're not marketing yet since if we did buyers wouldn't find much to see so no point in wasting resources for marketing. We're only and slowly just reaching out to anyone in the world to join our startup from the beginning. We're not in a huge hurry either as this is longterm thinking, not a fly by night operation. For those who want to be part of the beginning and have the right mindset for longterm thinking they're more than welcome.

Honestly, do you expect contributors to commit to a site with no photos and no buyers, and give you exclusive photos? The photos would be dead in the water mate generating no income. Seriously, this is the biggest joke ever.

Hmmm, just checked the date, its not April 1st. Come one, tell us, what gives? What is going to jump out of the cake?

No worries there as we're non-exclusive. You would invest time in uploading them and we take care of the rest while you continue working with any other macrostock outlet.

Quote from: Mantis on August 30, 2012, 01:18

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 14:12

Quote from: ShadySue on August 28, 2012, 13:53

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 13:31

It is our believe that a diverse but quality collection will work just like if one specializes in a specific segment. We're currently with 3 including myself working on this so that is why we can be there for our photographers and buyers every day.

So, three of you are working 8 hour shifts to provide worldwide customers service during their working hours. Nice, and better than at least one large micro. What is one of you is sick or wants a day off? Are the other two willing to take up the slack? What if all three get e.g. norovirus at the same time?

We have a backup for such events, it's not like we just started yesterday thinking about these issues :-) But a good point anyway !

Not like you started yesterday but you have not a functioning site so you haven't even started tomorrow.  Way to premature for you to be marketing your site in my opinion.

We're not marketing yet since if we did buyers wouldn't find much to see so no point in wasting resources for marketing. We're only and slowly just reaching out to anyone in the world to join our startup from the beginning. We're not in a huge hurry either as this is longterm thinking, not a fly by night operation. For those who want to be part of the beginning and have the right mindset for longterm thinking they're more than welcome.

Thank you for those who already signed up and also for those who gave their unsalted opinions ! For anyone seriously interested feel free to read our roadmap in short in the News section and the features we offer compared to most of the agencies outthere.

Please note that because of the macrostock section on MSG we decided to post here to see whoever is interested but also to receive varying opinions be it negative or positive.  Since this is one of the busiest places where the majority is still into microstock it is expected that opinions can be quite hard or sometimes even surprising. Any constructive opinion is considered and noted.

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 20:09

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 16:27

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 15:09

QuoteQ: What is your refund policy ? A: You can request a refund within 7 days from purchase and as long as the image was not used.
Please delete the image and all copies when a refund is confirmed by GraphXT. The refund will be made minus any financial fees involved depending on the original payment method.

I found that interesting. What is your strategy to ensure the image isn't being used? 3 people couldn't possibly hope to scour the web and all printed media to spot illegal usage.

I would love to see a "fresh approach" in which the agency looks out for photographers with a no refund policy.

There is no 100 % garantee, even the biggest names in the market are not able to offer a 100 % garantee on these things, that is the truth. On the other side, we stick to the policy and legal agreement which can be enforced if abused by malicious buyers.

Yes I know, that why rights managed doesn't really work when marketed internationally via the web. There is no way to ensure the license isn't being violated even for the big names. Royalty free is the only reasonable approach for web based stock agencies because of that.

The point isn't guaranteeing against licensing violations anyway. The point is the refund policy. Offering money back on an image that has already been downloaded is not a "fresh approach" I won't be involved.

Then our views differ but i respect your opinion. By law in The Netherlands if you buy something "remote" then you are required to offer a 7 day refund. For this type of goods it can ofcourse only be offered if the buyer decided not to use the image. This is something we also carefully investigated with legal to make sure we comply to the law here in NL (EU).

Quote from: digitalexpression on August 28, 2012, 15:09

QuoteQ: What is your refund policy ? A: You can request a refund within 7 days from purchase and as long as the image was not used.
Please delete the image and all copies when a refund is confirmed by GraphXT. The refund will be made minus any financial fees involved depending on the original payment method.

I found that interesting. What is your strategy to ensure the image isn't being used? 3 people couldn't possibly hope to scour the web and all printed media to spot illegal usage.

I would love to see a "fresh approach" in which the agency looks out for photographers with a no refund policy.

There is no 100 % garantee, even the biggest names in the market are not able to offer a 100 % garantee on these things, that is the truth. On the other side, we stick to the policy and legal agreement which can be enforced if abused by malicious buyers.

Quote from: ShadySue on August 28, 2012, 13:53

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 13:31

It is our believe that a diverse but quality collection will work just like if one specializes in a specific segment. We're currently with 3 including myself working on this so that is why we can be there for our photographers and buyers every day.

So, three of you are working 8 hour shifts to provide worldwide customers service during their working hours. Nice, and better than at least one large micro. What is one of you is sick or wants a day off? Are the other two willing to take up the slack? What if all three get e.g. norovirus at the same time?

We have a backup for such events, it's not like we just started yesterday thinking about these issues :-) But a good point anyway !

Quote from: gostwyck on August 28, 2012, 13:44

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 13:31
We're currently with 3 including myself working on this so that is why we can be there for our photographers and buyers every day.

That bedroom must be getting quite crowded.

I remember periods where it felt like the walls were closing in after a day and a night of non-stop work :-) But luckily that has changed to a better location of a befriended company to do the heavy lifting and in this new age you can do wonders with a laptop and a link to the internet.

Quote from: qwerty on August 28, 2012, 10:19
unless you have some specific niche in mind for your agency your pushing "sh#t" uphill. i.e. aerial photos, asian models, industrial, etc.

You'll need to spend a huge amount of time providing excellent service to your customers in order to provide value. Can you really do this as a one man band part time.

What agencies are acceptable to also distribute to under your non-exclusive terms of "I'll cancel your account and hit you with a big stick if you submit to microstock"   

I'm all for fair royalities and I would love to see successful agencies that pay 50% or more.

BTW did anybody notice that photodune is paying 70% royalities for the last week of the month.

It is our believe that a diverse but quality collection will work just like if one specializes in a specific segment. We're currently with 3 including myself working on this so that is why we can be there for our photographers and buyers every day.

As for your question concerning the big stick and microstock agencies; In general any agency will do as long as it's not a typical microstock agency which goes down to pennies or doesn't go beyond 100 euro for all licensed work. I mean you probably can differentiate between such agency and the non-micro kind.

Please also note, we're not your enemy, we're thinking from the perspective of photographers and believe in good rewards for good work. The real enemy of the stock industry is maybe the fact of quick profits operations, 1 price fits all and failing to organise as
photographers in multiple levels of this industry. There are some signs that this is slowly changing but there is a long way to go.

Quote from: luissantos84 on August 28, 2012, 02:30
what are you planning to do to "capture" RM buyers?

Quote from: sjlocke on August 28, 2012, 03:16
" We feel that there is a large gap between microstock and macrostock. Each
caters to the needs of specific buyers, we simply target a different range of buyer needs."

Tell us the 'needs' you are targeting.

That depends for an important part on continuous marketing efforts. But at the end the images themselves are the critical part of the puzzle. Some buyers don't want to use images which have been licensed by many others through many channels. They want to be unique, they might want to be exclusive for which we contact the photographer to work out a deal. Other buyers don't mind to pay more for images not easily found through the many other outlets.

We noticed more and more photographers slowly refusing to offer images to the "big players" just because they simply put too much time, costs and efforts to see them sell for a few bucks. From personal experience, i've seen from close how angry some people got when they saw that hard to get images made from a helicopter (at high costs) were sold for amounts which wouldn't pay for an average 3 course meal.

There are probably several specialist agencies / outlets which do reward well for good work. But quite a few of them are semi-closed to new photographers, suddenly want you to pay for sending them your product or eaten up quickly by the big players causing a change in their business model.

I'm sure that some (experienced) photographers here can confirm that if they sell their hard work through their own site or contact the reward is much better and more in control of terms. This is why we don't mind to ask you, the photographer, your opinion when it comes to situations where a buyer has X specific needs and Y budget to realize them if we're in doubt. There is no way we will take your work or our work for that matter and bulk sell it without consideration.

It doesn't matter if you do this parttime, fulltime, experienced professional, when you create something to be proud of and has good potential then it shouldn't be thrown around like if it was a used towel.

I'm sure that many previous and current agencies might have started with good intentions and somewhere along the way ended up in a maze. We try to keep it simple and straight for the longterm.

Quote from: stockastic on August 28, 2012, 01:39

Quote from: graphxt on August 28, 2012, 00:42

Quote from: stockastic on August 27, 2012, 16:58
I haven't looked at the site itself - sounds like it's going to be another exclusive club [yawn].   I'm just pointing out that the introductory posts don't have the traditional bubbly incoherence.

Not really, you are most welcome to join and submit anything you feel would be appropriate. Non-exclusive, we do not want to force people to only submit to us.

Thanks, I may do so.  I'm burned out on new sites right now, feeling I wasted a lot of time submitting to some only to see insignificant sales, or prices so low that all I was accomplishing was to undercut myself at the big sites.   So for myself, I'll hang back for now and see what direction GraphXT takes.

Understandable ofcourse. As for pricing that is something we will make a difference with. As for when the sales start to flow that will take a while as right now we need to reach a sufficient base of images and contributors then full marketing can start. Otherwise if we market at the same time while just filling up the emptiness buyers won't find anything and probably don't bother to come back.

That is why we don't want to disappoint anyone by making shortterm promises and projections, this is really for the longterm. But your advantage is that your images are not distributed to any thirdparty, they are with us and remain with us under your realtime control.

We'll do our best from our side to take care of expanding, attracting and finding opportunities for the time you spend sending us images.

Beside the "online" activities we are also open to bringing photographers and buyers together with specific assignments / requirements.

Eitherway, we appreciate any little gesture of consideration for working with us !

Quote from: JerryL5 on August 27, 2012, 21:31
The GraphXT-Eye of the Beholder link at the bottom of the Infobase page does not work.

Thank you for pointing that out ! It's adjusted hereby.

Quote from: stockastic on August 27, 2012, 16:58
I haven't looked at the site itself - sounds like it's going to be another exclusive club [yawn].   I'm just pointing out that the introductory posts don't have the traditional bubbly incoherence.

Not really, you are most welcome to join and submit anything you feel would be appropriate. Non-exclusive, we do not want to force people to only submit to us.

Quote from: gostwyck on August 27, 2012, 15:59
"Your work deserves to reside in a place where it is truly appreciated by fellow photographers, as well as buyers who seek a unique personal approach." (Takes out onion)

Sorry but this stuff is meaningless, misty-eyed twaddle. If you really think you're going to build a successful stock agency paying out 80% commission to artists then you are in for a big surprise and a lot of disappointment.

Check out SS's financials in the IPO document here;

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1549346/000104746912005905/a2209364zs-1.htm

That's a real agency that has been operating successfully in the real world (with real costs) for 8 years. That document is remarkable because it is the first time we have seen detailed financial information from a microstock agency. Notice the marketing spend for 2009-11? Last year it was $32M or just over 25% of total revenue. It was a similar percentage for previous years. I'm sure they wouldn't be spending that money if it wasn't necessary and it didn't get the desired results. Even their credit card charges were $5M or about 4% of revenue. Just those two costs alone add up to 30% of gross revenue. They still have to pay wages, rent, hardware, development, bandwidth,  insurance, etc before they get around to paying royalties.

Unless you too have several $M to blow on marketing then none of your special discerning buyers will ever know you exist.

Thank you for your concerns and information !

Just a "minor" detail; we're not a microstock agency and won't work with pennies and bulk. That's exactly the opposite of what we try to do. Artists delivering great work investing money and time should not be treated as bulk where a 1 price model fits all. It seems too many people get suckered into thinking that "for you a 1000 others exist" where great work is lost among a sea of similars.

That said, we do not close our eyes for reality but we will try to be efficient and re-invest any profit back into the business since our main sources of income are not generated by this initiative, as long as it takes. This gives us the freedom to offer such commission and on top of that put profit back into the business. Longterm thinking and investment are critical, shortterm thinking and gain is not what we aim for.

On top of that, any one joining has realtime control of his images at any point in time. Also images are not shared or processed to any kind of partner program or deal. They are and will remain with GraphXT at your fingertips.

Quote from: luissantos84 on August 27, 2012, 14:31
CMSaccount and Ktools are really opening the world of stock, don´t know exactly to where

Never heard of those but hey if they help photographers to present and sell their work all the best to such projects !

Quote from: velocicarpo on August 27, 2012, 06:19
Thanks for announcing here Graphxt. I will have you on may watchlist, am willing to participate if I see it worthwhile, and wish you in any case the best. I am always open to new approaches and especially the Macro Idea is what I find appealing.
There are many people on this board which look for the Problems first, don`t let this bring you down, it is not meant personal.

Thank you for your kind words !

We'll do our best since we're only starting from scratch so right now it's just gathering serious macrostock contributors before we start marketing to buyers once we have a base amount.

As for the other reactions; It was expected and no hard feelings, we note down constructive criticism and since the MSG has a macrostock section we hope both worlds can learn to respect each other where needed.

Not sure who are the administrators here but if possible it could be an idea to create a "new sites" section in the macrostock part of the forum. This way there is no confusion about the type of new site and where it appears in MSG.

For those interested feel free to check the news section where we try to explain in short what the plan is http://www.graphxt.com/index.php?module=news&pId=101&id=3.

Dear All,

I would like to hereby announce GraphXT. We're a new macrostock company which has been in the works since 2009 when it started as an idea. None of us are claiming the holy grail but since photography got more important in our life we started to search for a more fair business model where hard work does reward. We didn't find much beside a few options where it's almost impossible to get a chance to be part of or one has to pay to supply them. Needless to say that the reality of the imagestock business went the other way for many photographers and quality was turned into a business of bulk and pennies.

Here we are, humble, but with a persistent view and motivation to make a difference for everyone who wants to join us and go for the longterm.

Please feel free to read more about GraphXT on our site http://www.graphxt.com. We have compiled a f.a.q document for photographers with many answers on important questions at the "infobase" section. We will also post news in the "News" section whenever needed. Currently you can read in the "News" section our announcement for photographers and the first steps of the roadmap we have in mind.

Do feel free to contact us if you have questions or if you have specific needs.

Kind regards,

Team GraphXT - Mark

Interesting idea if the microstock people would band together and setup something like that. Although i personally do not believe in the microstock model as it is now, it can only get better if people from the practise work together to improve the microstock business and take it away from pennies to a level where hard work is rewarded.

This is basically how we at GraphXT started to think in 2009 and from a few pieces of paper we've arrived somewhere in 2012 with a ready  business model. Created from the perspective of photographers who invest in their work and want to see that returned by content buyers.

On a different note; I wanted to post in the section "new sites" but it seems a first post has to be made to an existing thread.