I really hope that you are right.

Russian citizens can say things like that about their president without going to prison as well.
The government attempts to reduce the freedom of speech in the internet but it is not that bad yet.
I don't like the tendency though.

(and yes, I can admit terrible actions of the side I seem to defend, since my PoV is unbiased, I'm not pro-russian or anti-US)

Quote from: Netherspite on July 20, 2014, 16:24

You seem to skip the important part of the story: legally elected president was forced to leave the country.
After that the country was in the hands of the ukrainian nationalists. I completely support their wish to be closer to the rest of Europe. However, their first action was to revoke rights of the ethnic minorities in the country.

How? By overthrowing a puppet government? Citizens of any nation have the right to overthrow a despotic government that ignores their interests.

This whole fight isn't about the rights of ethnic minorities. It's about how much power Putin will have. Nothing more. Those separatists don't care about rights. What they care about is doing what Putin tells them to do.

By overthrowing a legal government and replacing it with a puppet nationalist one.
Citizens of any nation have the right to legally elect another government if they don't like current one.
And I don't see how the new rebels against current government are any different from the rebels against previous government. It is all the same: attempt to not follow the directions of the government they don't like.

This whole fight IS in fact about the rights of ethnic minorities. The power Putin will have... Are you serious? This world is unipolar and the only powerful empire we have is the US who does whatever they want wherever they want. The picture posted above was describing the situation very fine: NATO attempts to circle Russia with its bases and claims its the Russia who wants the war. Please...

No, but we wouldn't go out and slaughter a whole ethnic group to solve the problem either. The U.S. isn't perfect. It never will be. We've made mistakes in our history, and we make mistakes today. But you know what? We own those mistakes and try to learn from them.

As I said, his actions weren't the correct answer to the situation. But actions of the kosovar albanians weren't peaceful and correct either. And it was albanians who provoked the conflict.
And how the bombing of the ethnic minorities in the Eastern Ukraine is any different from ethnic cleansing in Kosovo?

You seem to skip the important part of the story: legally elected president was forced to leave the country.
After that the country was in the hands of the ukrainian nationalists. I completely support their wish to be closer to the rest of Europe. However, their first action was to revoke rights of the ethnic minorities in the country.

Another blatant lie.
Have you ever been in the place of conflicts to judge who is victim and who is aggressor?
I have friends living in different parts of Ukraine.
And those who live at Eastern Ukraine are saying that ukrainian air forces are bombing the civilians in their houses in the cities at the Eastern Ukraine.
I don't see a reason to believe they're liars. It is their homes and their lives, and they are scared.

Regarding Kosovo, you can ask serbians about how many of them was killed by albanians in Kosovo and who was performing ethnic cleansing there.

In that case they would admit it. No point in denying it if you did it by accidence since it only worsens your guilt.

So we have a video of some missile launch, audio of two russian-speaking persons talking and photos.
We all seen old (6+ months old) photos being used as newly shot ones and claims that they are from the Ukraine while they were from the completely different place. How can we be sure this is not the case again?
And that audio... Seriously, give me 10 minutes and I'll record similar audio.
The only possible motivation behind that awful tragedy is the motivation to make up "evil" Russia image in the eyes of the world. Name a single other motivation that would make sense. There are none.
And if you have resources and power of the US government you won't hesitate to make up all these indirect proofs in few hours.

Western news media has a hell of a lot more credibility because it's independent and not controlled by the government. You can keep your head in the sand all you want, but denying that the missile wasn't shot by Russian-proxies or the Russian military is just not believable.

Saying Ukraine shot it down to get the rest of the world angry at Russia is just the dumbest thing I've heard. Nobody seriously believes that. Our own satellite imagery says that's not true, and those aren't biased.

Claiming that russian rebels shot that plane is the thing that is not believable.
Name a single benefit Russia has from shooting civil plane down? Do you think they are just idiots who like to kill civilians? Never heard anything as insane.

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion isn't about politics. It's about justice, and who is going to pay for the murders of the people on that flight.

I'd really like to see guilty persons to pay for these murders.
I'd also like to see those who bomb civilians in cities on rebel-controlled territory to pay for the murders they did.
However, I doubt it will happen

This thread is not an US-bashing thread.
More like Russia-bashing thread.

And americans aren't bad guys in this tragedy. Nor russians nor ukrainians are.
It is the result of dirty politics game and this is the most sad part of it.

US joined the WWII on the winning side only after it became pretty obvious which side is winning.
So this example is not valid.

Anyway, I don't see how that picture above can become incorrect due to the "help" argument.