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Messages - Waldo4

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151
Photo Critique / Re: composition advice
« on: February 27, 2008, 14:04 »
Actually I wasn't at first, I said that it may be needed, but after seeing the rotated version, to do much more would take some stretching.  I probably would have rotated it even further (my initial estimate was about 3-4%), but you may have run out of image in the lower RH corner.  The water doesn't seem too difficult to clone in though.  It would make the water spray at the nozzle tilted, a perspective distortion that can be fixed by pushing the lower LH corner in (free transform in PS, not sure what the Gimp has or if it can do it).  The one thing that I would have based most of it around is having the spire on the building on the vertical centerline, but looking at it now I don't think that would work.  The person in the water really gets in the way to put the spray on one horizontal third and the building spire on the other, which I think is probably the overall ideal comp, I think that they either would be partially chopped off or too close to the edge for comfort, and completely removing them would require some surgical clone stamping at the top of their head, almost impossible really.  I'll see what I can do with it though later.

152
Photo Critique / Re: composition advice
« on: February 27, 2008, 13:31 »
I can't do it right now, I need the PS on my home base computer to do it, so I'll take a stab at it in a few hours when I get home.  It definitely looks better this way.  Though I'll probably pull a little here and push a little there to make it fit nice.

I always wonder how the MS sites treat stretching and warping.  I know most say that you can't upsize a file, but stretching in PS uses bicubic resampling to smooth, which is no different than upsizing.  Then again, no matter what size I look at a picture, I cannot find traces of bicubic resampling unless it is an extreme effect (100% upsize etc..), at the small #'s they are talking about, ~5%, I have no idea how it could be spotted at anything less than 4-500% viewing, even then it would take some very tough inspection to spot.  I don't know if I could even do architecture the way I do without stretching, it is needed to correct the perspective distortions inherent in every architecture shot (I guess I could get a super expensive tilt/shift).

153
iStockPhoto.com / Re: Inspector's monitor choice
« on: February 27, 2008, 10:51 »
You can get a 22" widescreen for $150 now on sale, just have to watch the local store sales circulars.  If you want a better brand name, you will have to pay a little more.  I need to upgrade to an LCD at home, my CRT is huge and sucks a lot of electricity im sure.

LCD buying is tough because the stores never calibrate and little differences in the settings can huge effects on the viewed product, and it is a little different than TV buying (for photos at least).  For HDTV's, contrast ratio is almost secondary to refresh rate and peak viewable angle, for a good photo monitor the refresh rate doesn't matter at all (though it does for gaming), nor does the peak angle (unless you get a little lazy sometimes), contrast ratio, color accuracy, and black point (related to contrast ratio, most LCD's struggle to reproduce black) are king.  Your best bet is almost always doing heavy research on line and walking into the store knowing what you want, the side by side comparisons generally aren't very good, at best they are randomly bad, at worst they are emphasizing their higher profit/higher priced monitors to unwitting consumers.  You are almost always safe with a good Dell (I do have a bad Dell LCD however at work, better than a CRT but not in the league of my Samsung), Samsung, or Sony, all tend to have great color, the deepest blacks, and high contrast.

154
Photo Critique / Re: composition advice
« on: February 27, 2008, 10:34 »
I'd love to see the final product.  After pondering how things would line up and the effects that it should create, it would be interesting to see what it actually looks like.

155
Adobe Stock / Re: Sales and Credits not updating on Fotolia today
« on: February 27, 2008, 09:57 »
I noticed that it can take days occasionally to update the views, though when ordered by views it is correct, the #'s do not show it.

156
Cameras / Lenses / Re: EOS 40D vs 400D?
« on: February 26, 2008, 13:41 »
Isn't the 350D and 30D sensor and processing chip exactly the same?  I thought that the advantages the 30D had over the 350D were build and size, a general friendlier arrangement, faster burst, and superior AF/metering.

157
Photo Critique / Re: composition advice
« on: February 26, 2008, 13:22 »
Couple of things, try a rotation of the image to make the building in the background horizon-straight.  It is somewhat unsettling to see tilted buildings, especially when it is not the result of perspective and lens distortion a la an ultrawide.  The umbrella in the back shows the same tilt. 

The rules of thirds always has to be taken with a grain of salt, along with every compositional rule.  They are not there for "put things here" but rather, these points on an image tend to highlight or downplay certain things, or, at a deeper level, emphasize tension and harmony (Chinese calligraphy is a terrific study for composition in this respect, the inherent meaning in compositional space.  I wish we would crack the Mayan written language, that too would be a fantastic study), it is all about what to emphasize to the viewer.  Putting something in the middle is so powerful it has the effect of almost hiding the rest of the image (but is also action neutral so boring if the object isn't the action), not always bad.  Putting something on the thirds, whether in 2D space (tic tac toe) or 1D (the third of a centerline) allows the viewer to take in the rest of the picture.  As an example, a sunflower with the flower placed on the upper third and the stem on the centerline will direct the eye to the flower, then flow down the stem.  With respect to tension and release, the first third is tense and full of action, moving into the picture, the center is neutral, the last third is released, the tension has passed (generally the best flower comp for this reason).  There are other compositional forms totally unrelated to the rule of thirds as well (diagonal and false diagonal for example, the rule of thirds is routinely broken for good abstract architecture).

It it were me, I'd rotate the shot to make the building level, and put it on the vertical centerline.  Put the point where the top of the wall intersects the vertical centerline on the lower third point.  This puts the main part of the spray on the top centerline vertical third and the nozzle near the edge (I believe, just an estimate by looking at it) at about 1/6 from the side and bottom (also a somewhat important important point).  If things don't fit nice you can always cheat and stretch a bit, especially if you keep the person in the water from stretching (clone in from an unstretched copy of the file). 

Hope this helps.

158
Cameras / Lenses / Re: Good start 55-200 or 70-300
« on: February 26, 2008, 10:18 »
Prestige -> 70-200 (It has the white paint and red stripe, generally a pro, but the 70-200 is more obvious and attractive to a theif).

Here's a factoid for ya - if what I read on the Internet last week is true.  The big Canon lenses are white because the typical user will sit in the sun for extended lengths of time shooting sports or wildlife.  The white reflects light = cooler lens.  Apparently things can get pretty hot inside all the black equipment and cause damage to circuits, etc.  You can buy still black Canon lenses, but they are usually specialty order and more $$$.


The justification for having a cooler tele lens is because the Tele L's use fluorite glass lenses.  Those are softer than standard glass, and deform more due to heat variations. 

But it sure is a great marketing campaign, as you can always tell L's at a sporting event.

It makes a lot of sense, I have heard that before.  The coefficient of thermal expansion for metal is greater than it is for glass, metal expands and contracts more than glass.  The glass in all large buildings is seated on foam or rubber backer instead of directly in the metal frames, otherwise on a hot day all the windows would break.  Lens glass, in addition to being very expensive, is also fairly flimsy (as glass goes, it isn't 2" laminated plate glass).  With a plastic lens body however, the coefficient of thermal expansion can be controlled (probably a big factor in the formulation of Canon's exact lens plastic) to be equal to or less than that of glass, so the body, even hot, imparts no stresses on the lens glass to temporarily warp (when cool it snaps back to normal) or crack the glass.

159
iStockPhoto.com / Re: Inspector's monitor choice
« on: February 26, 2008, 10:03 »
I envy all with big screens. alas i do not have space for it. I wonder if my laptop screen is adequate in terms of color correction, even with calibration ....

It's amazing how much the big ones have come down in price.  I got a 22" high contrast Samsung a few months ago really cheap.  They were running a sale on the model and I got an open box one (tested at store), ended up getting a $500 monitor for $220.  I also have a Samsung 32" LCD HDTV in the office that is hooked to my computer (and the AV system).  Originally used the computer connection for gaming, but it is great for a final looksee on photos, pretty impractical to use it for much else.  For a bit I had it on my desk when my old CRT gave out, my computer felt like the IMAX, but it is a novelty that wears off quick as your neck wears our from having to turn your head to follow the mouse around.

160
General Stock Discussion / Re: first sale feeling...
« on: February 25, 2008, 12:23 »
I've only been at it since the beginning of the month, and have only been a member at DT and FT the whole time (just got accepted at IS no photos approved yet, all in the waiting que, denied at StockXpert (sux they give no reasons or a photo by photo breakdown, they just said no), haven't tried SS yet, probably in the next few days, BigStock has had an upload moratorium until today (not at home base right now), and darn 123RF won't send me my initial password, and I'm sure my email is working and that the address I entered is correct, it is on their end).  I've got 20 approved at FT and 30 at DT (some in the que too, probably will have 35 out of the same submissions I got 20 out of at FT).  I've had 5 sales, 1 at DT, just a measly sub, but 4 at FT, to 2 people, both bought the same picture twice, one got the XS and the S of a shot within minutes of each other, another got the S and came back the next day and got an extended, it was my 4th sale.

161
Cameras / Lenses / Re: Good start 55-200 or 70-300
« on: February 25, 2008, 10:53 »
It really depends on your application.  When I got my 70-300 IS, I weighed the pros and cons of it and the 70-200 f/4L very hard since both are very similarly priced (just above my price ceiling, where you generally should be looking for optics) and the IQ is quite good for both.  For both:

70-200 vs 70-300:
IQ -> 70-200 (though it isn't a big gap, especially on a crop sensor, nothing like the drop to the Sigma or Canon 75-300 which is a big noticeable rift)
Handholdability in non-ideal light -> 70-300 (3 stop advantage on short end, 2 on long end, because of the IS vs aperture differences, the IS really works well)
Weight -> 70-300 (light for a tele, though also not a big gap, the 70-200 isn't that much heavier, all other L tele's are though)
Build -> 70-200 (L's are built like tanks, the 70-300 is built solid though)
Range -> 70-300 (Extra 100mm comes in handy, though a TC can extend the 70-200 for additional cost)
FF Use -> 70-200 (Both can be used on a FF without a problem, but the 70-300 has poor edge IQ that is hidden by a crop sensor)
Resale -> 70-200 (L's hold their value well, though the 70-300 is still a Canon FF, it isn't going to lose value like a Sigma, it will still be worth quite a bit)
Prestige -> 70-200 (It has the white paint and red stripe, generally a pro, but the 70-200 is more obvious and attractive to a theif).

It was a very tough decision, looking back I'm glad that I went the way I did, it fits what I do better.  If you walk around a lot for long periods (especially not always in bright sunlight), have a crop sensor (and plan on staying that way for a little bit), and rarely use a tripod, the 70-300 is probably a better bet.  If much of your work is on a tripod, or you spend short periods walking (or with less stuff, I carry a ton of crap on walkabout), or have a FF sensor, the 70-200 is the way to go.  On an 8 MP crop sensor, the IQ differences are minimal, on a 12 MP FF sensor, they become much more magnified and are noticeable, especially in the corners.
 

162
Software - General / Re: Jpeg and isolation?
« on: February 22, 2008, 11:51 »
I just had one rejected the other day for that reason, not enough DOF, at f/40, with my Tele at about closest focusing range at max zoom.  I'm not sure if it is possible to get more DOF at that magnification, the shot is essentially an impossible capture for what they are looking for for DOF (dice falling out of a dice cup straight toward the viewer (slight offset) at table level, the front dice being in perfect focus, the cup having DOF effects though (about 2 inches behind the front dice)).

163
Cameras / Lenses / Re: New Canon patent, watermarking images
« on: February 22, 2008, 11:42 »
But I'm sure it stays on the RAW files.  Definitely would be the best way yet devised to prove ownership of a RAW file for copyright infringement cases.  If they could set it up that it would be stripped from the RAW if it was edited by a program other than a few approved ones (Like Canon's, ACR) that cannot edit content (WB, Saturation, etc.. is not content, can't clone stamp in a RAW editor), it would be quite a big deal for the news industry, especially after the debacle at one of the major newpapers/magazines (can't remember where) somewhat recently that ran a Pulitzer class photo that was an edited combo of 2 photos, a huge no-no.

164
Photo Critique / Re: Help with IS rejection
« on: February 22, 2008, 11:34 »
What micro agencies might accept a flower pic?  I'm not a huge flower shooter, but do have some stunning shots, especially good is a rare form of a Calla Lilly (red rimmed yellow flower), and Callas seem to be insanely popular compared to other flowers.  I do have some really good, fairly rare Orchids too.

165
General Stock Discussion / Re: Database to manage photos
« on: February 22, 2008, 11:28 »
Bought a Mac 18 months ago and... It's crashed twice.  TWICE!  It's amazing!  And both times it crashed I was forcing it to process loads of video AND photos and I think I was playing Sim City at the same time!

That'll do it.  Run a graphically intense game, at the same time as some video, at the same time PS is downsampling a 5+ shot HDR and just about any consumer PC would freak out, now matter how much CPU horsepower, RAM, or video memory you have.  Mmmm...Simcity, almost always have Civ4 running in the background in my computer right now, I guess PS would get a lot faster if I would close the program between playing sessions.

166
General Stock Discussion / Re: Database to manage photos
« on: February 22, 2008, 11:05 »
Your point above about Ctl-Alt-Delete, I don't have to worry about that, I'm on a mac.   ;)  I'm sure though that being on a Mac will make programming way harder, but thems the breaks!

Getting stuck in infinite loops or infinite waits tends to be a major programming hassle, especially if you miss a # here or period there.  On a Windows PC, Ctl-Atl-Del is the out (usually, though I've seen the blue screen of death more times that I can count and have had to pull the plug and/or pull the battery to get out a few times).  Linux is the programmers friend, you just close the window, you cannot crash a Linux system (that I am aware of, I've never done it, though I don't have a ton on Linux experience).  After being used to Windows and their various products through the years, the 100% stability and complete uncrashablility of Linux is a dream.  It was quite a contrast that I had ME on the home PC at the same time I was learning C++ on Linux at school, after tons of problems with ME I finally reached a higher up in Microsoft support, who told me ME is the worst OS they ever released.  XP is actually fairly stable, though it is crashable.  I think they finally decided to close the backdoor on it (to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been found yet), all previous MS OS's had a backdoor for MS to access your computer at any time (also a reason they got slower as they aged), it is a long process to close it, but it can be done.  My computer got several times faster after I closed the backdoor to 2000, though it is a very long and tedious process, about 20 pages of steps.

167
Hmmm... that could be an interesting block of people if we ever wanted to change things at IS... 15% of revenue is nothing to sneeze at!

By my calc's it is right around 1%, though some big guys haven't chimed in.  Mine, 0, yet.

168
General Stock Discussion / Re: Database to manage photos
« on: February 22, 2008, 10:19 »
Not sure exactly about the programming for this, but the database linkup is probably object oriented programming along the lines of C++, VB, SQL, JAVA, etc..., (API provides the data, the database language uses it to do something), which can have quite a steep learning curve at first, they are not user friendly like HTML, at all, and do not "think" the same way, though all object orientated languages "think" similar (an if-then-else is an if-then-else, a for-do is a for-do, with minor syntax differences).  Just determining how things are organized and linking apps together can be a quite a task.  The site API, just to get the info, is not even half the battle.  Sans a Linux based computer, Ctl-Alt-Del becomes your enemy and savior on many occasions.  I'm not trying to scare you away, by all means go for it, it is a great learning experience, and a very useful and marketable skill, but expect massive amounts of frustration at first.  If I had to time to work on it I'd probably create some apps (probably will at some point once the collection becomes big enough to warrant automation) for my spreadsheet, but I know it would be a lot of work.  I have a few years in school of object orientated programming experience (PASCAL, C++, JAVA, VB) and am fluent in VB, needing it for both school years ago and now for my professional career (not as needed, but I can do things coworkers can't because I can program).  Best way to learn VB programming (non-compiled code that is used in most Microsoft products and compatible with a good % of others (can access the ODBC)) and get your feet wet is to start small with some basic macros in Excel to automate some spreadsheet functions, the errors aren't as big, the help files are OK.  I wouldn't start by jumping into linking a spreadsheet into API interfaces.

I keep a 2 page primary database (not including any graphs or charts)

The first is a month by month site tracker.  The key numbers are the acceptance rate, average photo/day (start #, and end# aren't as useful), and the monthly earnings, the two together can give the $/photo for the month for each site.  Plus I track an overall portfolio performance assuming all sales across all sites on one ideal site, and all submitted photos are accepted at the ideal site. 

Page two is an individual photo breakdown, where I list every photo and keep a running total of the total sales for it at each site, and an overall total.  I don't think that tracking sales monthly per photo is a useful thing to do.  It is (will be) nice to sort the list by totals and see just how much my biggest earners have made, and eventually spot content trends across the different sites.

169
Adobe Stock / Re: 3.000.000 images contest
« on: February 20, 2008, 16:11 »
As an example, I tried with a shot of a stone lantern in a japanese garden, great shot, really screams relaxation in the way it was shot and processed.   They have some roughly similar shots in their database, 11 to be exact,  presented similar with regards to setting, though comp, angle, and style is different for each, mine would have stood out among them.  All but 2 have sold at least once.  Yet they have more than 1000 images of an isolated apple, less than half have sold once.  In fact a search for "isolated apple" yields more than 4x as many hits as "dahlia."  Seems that they don't need any more isolated apples.

I know I'd never get a Dahlia accepted, but they lack a single tagged shot of a semi-cactus Dahlia (flower shape), an "Arabian Nights" Dahlia, or a "Karma Sangria" Dahlia, well known cultivars.  If I was a designer and wanted a Dahlia shot (typically the people that would use them know their flowers), these are things that I would search for, not just generic Dahlia and waste hours hunting for the one I wanted.

Not that I'm a big flower shooter, just proving a point.  My fave topic is even more useless, abstract architecture.  Architects and architecture magazines take their own pictures.

But still, by only accepting certain types, they are not making themselves better, they are limiting their scope to only what sells the best, in essence saying "we don't have the server space for slower selling topics, instead we allocate every bit of it to better selling topics, though the chance that a shot actually sells once is actually less with the better selling topics than the slower selling topics because of overabundance."    With that buisiness mind, they are shutting out new markets of clients, if they become interested in browsing Fotolia's shots and aren't looking for their best selling stuff, they'll be skunked because Fotolia denied away all the photos because of type.  The wooden deck one at request at DT is a funny one.  No way Fotolia will accept some photos of a wooden deck on a house in the means they want it presented, they have 0 in their database and I'm sure that it will stay that way. 

170
Adobe Stock / Re: 3.000.000 images contest
« on: February 20, 2008, 15:32 »
Ahh, so they've got this stupid contest going where people throw tons of trash and see what sticks.  No wonder they decline every picture of mine, for "type of photograph reasons."  Never got a different type of rejection yet, but they take less than 25% of my shots.  DT takes more than 70% of them.  The few that they do take are typically the ones where I think "well, not my best, but technically sound", whereas when I think, "man, what a great shot" DT takes it, Fotolia declines it for type of shot.  Fotolia really doesn't want any pictures other than isolated objects, background textures, and fake smiling models, do they?  Someone musta forgot that a contest like this will bring in a lot of pictures, hence the need for server storage, thus they just reject everything.  Since shots are generally found on a keyword basis, if server space isn't an issue and people aren't keyword spamming, why is there a point in ever rejecting a photo for type of shot or overabundance.  It doesn't make the dababase better, it just makes it smaller, being harsher technically makes it better, type has little to do with quality.

171
Cameras / Lenses / Re: Good start 55-200 or 70-300
« on: February 19, 2008, 15:55 »
I've got the 70-300 IS and love it.  The IS works really well, and the lens is quite sharp, comparing favorably to L lenses in resolution tests.  It is a little slow, so no long range, low light, action photography, but in well lit situations, or lower light static subjects it is perfect.  It would be perfect for the type of shots you have above. 

Shot #2 is not a focus issue, the shutter speed was too slow, there is motion blur from the camera moving.  Shot #1 is out of focus, or the lens resolution is awful, there is nothing sharp in the image.

I have an S2 IS, it took some good pictures, but looking back, now that I can see photographs much better and the defects that they contain, wow are the pictures crap, at least side by side with the SLR at the full size resolution of my monitor.  Printed out at 4x6, they look great though.  I never could tell if the IS did anything or not with that camera, when it kicks in in my tele, it is like the lens is on a tripod, it is very noticeable.

Here are a couple of example shots from it, similar to yours, all handheld:
(stopped down to f/7.1 at 300mm, sunset)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2041416124_aa18a9bfc3_b.jpg
(stopped down to f/7.1 at 70mm, plant detail)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2154/2173252687_bdabd682a0_b.jpg
And one of my faves:
(wide open (f/5.6) at 300mm, this is as bad as it gets in good lighting)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2278/2178788631_4554876975_b.jpg

(you might need to click to zoom in (firefox), the size first shown in the link is a poorly interpolated, jaggy downsample).

172
Cameras / Lenses / Re: Canon 400D / Rebel XTI
« on: February 19, 2008, 15:37 »
I've always wondered if the LCD on the few DSLR's that actually have live view if even useful for anything other than framing and possibly exposure (hard to tell how accurately it shows the exposure).  I cannot see how the resolution would be good enough to determine focus, I remember pointlessly trying to manually focus my PnS, even with the magnified area it was basically useless, the autofocus could always outperform it.  Though it is amazing how easy it is to see focus in the little viewfinder on a DSLR.

Actually it seems when people get DSLR's just to have the best, but really have the skills of an auto PnS shooter (and don't develop them), their pictures get worse.  Shooting in .jpeg hurts some of the gains in range that a DSLR has, and DOF is hard for beginers to grasp, it really doesn't exist in PnS cameras except in extreme cases, but it often shows up, the wrong way, with a DSLR.  I've had my camera at a few parties, everybody that picks it up and puts it in auto thinks that things are going good, but they don't realize I have it set to only look at the centerpoint for focusing (most pictures thus are out of focus), and auto likes to pick the fastest aperture of the lens, generally f/1.8 at parties.  Anything other than a portrait at that speed likely has some problems because of the DOF, especially if multiple people are involved.

173
Photo Critique / Re: looking for your opinion
« on: February 19, 2008, 15:13 »
I used to be really hung up on curves, but since I discovered the magic of luminosity masking, the basic contrast adjustment is generally good enough when used in combination with the mask (which also has contrast applied to it to help isolate luminosity regions).  I still use the curves when I don't think that masking is necessary, especially in the RAW editor, where the curves are much more forgiving.  One of the best ways to give your colors pop is to contrast the A and B channels in lab mode (best place to sharpen is on the luminosity channel only), it is different than saturation alone.  The curves could be used too, but in most cases that is more control than is necessary.

I also use the duplicate and soft blending technique, or take it further and triple duplicate, set copy 1 to screen and copy 1 to multiply, then adjust the opacity of copy 3. 

I actually use this technique with multiple shots as well, I'll take 5 or more shots from a tripod, varying the lighting angle, then combine them into one file, each with its own layer twice, on one set I'll adjust the lighting to be perfect (its amazing what a single flash can do with multiple shots blended over and over), on another I'll pick the perfect white edges to erase around through to my background.  Enables perfect shadowless isolations lit with what seems like lots of lights in a very complex setup, in reality it is just a bunch of shots combined, lit with a single flash.

174
Cameras / Lenses / Re: Doubts about my starting Lens
« on: February 19, 2008, 14:13 »
I second that 50mm f/1.4.  Could be that my f/1.8 copy is crap, but my 70-300mm definitely takes sharper pictures, quite noticeably better.  The f/1.8 is cheap, very cheap.  Every thing it does the f/1.4 does better.  It is built better, it is faster, has better bokeh, and naturally it is a quarter to half a stop bright (making it even faster, usably), it focuses better and quieter, it is more flare resistant (the flare looks better too), and is every bit as sharp, if not moreso (I would expect QC to be better as well).  I plan on replacing my cheepie with the better model in not too long.  $300 is still pretty cheap for a good versatile lens, a little more of a dent than the $80 for the cheepie, but 5 years from now that f/1.4 will still have a prominent place in the bag unless good IQ sub f/2.0 zooms are on the horizon (doubt it).

175
Cameras / Lenses / Re: Doubts about my starting Lens
« on: February 19, 2008, 10:03 »
Even though I have a crop body now, and probably will for a few more years (next one will be the step up crop a la 40d), I look at lenses two ways.  Some ranges and types are better off going for the gold and getting a FF lens than others.  In the end you may need a new lens or two when converting, but it shouldn't be a big deal.  For long lengths, 50mm+, I think that a FF lens is the way to go.  These lenses don't get used as much and IQ is king when talking long lenses, might as well get a good one.  Macro lenses would fall in this category as well, the 100mm is a very highly regarded lens, both on a crop and FF body.  All primes should be FF, I don't know if they make any non-macro EF-S primes anyway. 

But normal, and especially WA, I'd compromise and get a EF-s, especially for a WA, as all the superwides, the 10mm minimums, are made for crop sensors, and are needed to get the kind of wide range that is possible on a FF sensor.  With a normal lens, IQ and usability would be the only determining factor for me, it is going to be the workhorse, better to get the best for you now and maybe have to switch in the future.  For my eventual normal lens, I'm either going to get a EF-S 17-55 f/2.8 IS (the sharpest, most holdable zoom lens you can put on a crop body), or a EF 16-35 f/2.8 L.  The FF lens lacks the IS, has less range, but is built better, and costs almost $400 more.  IQ is equivalent between the two, possibly tipping toward the EF-S actually.  I could save the $400 now, get a more usable lens, even though I'll eventually go FF, that lens will take 10's, possibly 100's, of thousands of pictures before I ever get a FF camera, and probably play a big role in paying for the new camera and L lens (which would replace both the WA and the normal). 

In that sense, for all specialty lenses (macro, prime, tele, fisheye), get ones that will last in any format, unless it only is applicable to one format (the superwides), for the workhorse though, get the best that you can, for your application, irregardless of future applicability.  Just my humble opinion.

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