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Author Topic: Concrete demands from SS regarding new pay structure  (Read 4159 times)

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« on: May 28, 2020, 04:06 »
+13

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.


« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2020, 04:11 »
+3

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Also Video level limits are ridiculous like this, only the biggest studios could climb back to normal percentages. The tolerable thing for video level boundaries would be these number in dollars earned, not number of downloads

« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2020, 04:24 »
0
To be honest video only makes up a relatively small percentage of my portfolio so I wont be continuing to upload any after the changes in any case (even if they change levels, do rolling etc. I would still be in too low a tier for my liking).

My knowledge for that is therefore limited. If they do levels on rolling 12 months is 251+ sales in a calendar year a lot for a mainly-video full time contributor (I genuinely don't know). This would put you on 30%.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 04:28 by Justanotherphotographer »

« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2020, 04:48 »
+5
To be honest video only makes up a relatively small percentage of my portfolio so I wont be continuing to upload any after the changes in any case (even if they change levels, do rolling etc. I would still be in too low a tier for my liking).

My knowledge for that is therefore limited. If they do levels on rolling 12 months is 251+ sales in a calendar year a lot for a mainly-video full time contributor (I genuinely don't know). This would put you on 30%.

Yes, I would probably make that, but putting 250 video sales on par with 500 photo sales is nonsense. (but the whole new payment scheme is ridiculous anyways...)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 05:01 by Desintegrator »

« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2020, 05:18 »
0
Looking at the tables, where would be a good place to set the levels for video IF it was a rolling 12 month basis and REAL percentage of amount paid per dl by the buyer (without these two changes I agree that the new structure completely unacceptable anyway)?

Could some other professional video people please chime in? I really think we need to focus on specific demands if we want to make a difference here.

« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2020, 05:24 »
+3

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.

« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2020, 05:26 »
0

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.
Honestly, I don't think these are realistic demands given what other agencies are doing

« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2020, 05:26 »
+3
I am not a video pro, but video is now 30-40% of my monthly stock income.

For sales volume only, video sales are maybe 5- 10 % of photo sales. But moneywise they are very powerful, often one video sale equals more than 100 photo sales.

So for creating a royalty step ladder based on individual sales as opposed to money, I would create a system with maybe 5-10% of the photo volume.

But SS has the data, it should be really easy for them to come up with a system that makes sense.


« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2020, 05:29 »
+2

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.
Honestly, I don't think these are realistic demands given what other agencies are doing

At least we should demand on opt out option for video subs

« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2020, 05:34 »
+1

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.
Honestly, I don't think these are realistic demands given what other agencies are doing

At least we should demand on opt out option for video subs
Good idea

« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2020, 05:40 »
+6

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.
Honestly, I don't think these are realistic demands given what other agencies are doing

It's time to show our teeth.

Not just to shutterstock, but to all agencies that might try doing something similar. We succeeded with iStock (which is mostly irrelevant now) and DPC (which was shut down).

Don't let a crisis go to waste - there won't be another time like this when all contributors come together. We need to make a stand.

« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2020, 05:43 »
0
Is the main problem with the video tiers then the level 3-4 boundary? So if 30% was at 150 dls level would that be acceptable? Trying not to compare to photos.

(again I am going to keep reiterating IF and only if they also implement 12 month rolling and actual percentage paid to SS)

« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2020, 05:48 »
0

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.
Honestly, I don't think these are realistic demands given what other agencies are doing

It's time to show our teeth.

Not just to shutterstock, but to all agencies that might try doing something similar. We succeeded with iStock (which is mostly irrelevant now) and DPC (which was shut down).

Don't let a crisis go to waste - there won't be another time like this when all contributors come together. We need to make a stand.

I personally don't see a flat rate as necessarily preferable. It motivates SS to minimise number of dls big buyers use so they pocket the difference. The same thing they are trying to pull with the new levels by basing our payment on if buyers use all their dls rather than a real percentage.

Most of us have been seeing income from SS slide for a while so something needs changing.

A system based on actual, fair, achievable percentages based on a rolling 12 months basis could be a win win for everyone involved.

The proposed version SS has rolled out is a nightmare.

« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2020, 05:55 »
+2

1. Percentages have to mean actual percentages based on downloads utilised by buyers. They are now meaningless. Ongoing reporting can be achieved by reporting and paying the minimum possible payout each month (if buyer uses all dls) and the remainder paid the following month when SS knows how many dls the buyer actually used.

2. Totals absolutely must be based on a rolling 12 month basis, the January reset is bizarre and indefensible. Rolling basis would have all the claimed benefits of rewarding contributors, while we still get to eat and pay rent in the first few months of the year.

We aren't going to get them to abandon the new structure entirely. We need to pressure them to make it a win win rather than simply punishing us to line their own pockets.

Percentages could also be rolled back for sub sales, so that we earn the familar 0.25-0.38 per download, as we did until now. Use percentages only for OD sales.

+

3. Video subs. Out with them.
Honestly, I don't think these are realistic demands given what other agencies are doing

It's time to show our teeth.

Not just to shutterstock, but to all agencies that might try doing something similar. We succeeded with iStock (which is mostly irrelevant now) and DPC (which was shut down).

Don't let a crisis go to waste - there won't be another time like this when all contributors come together. We need to make a stand.

I personally don't see a flat rate as necessarily preferable. It motivates SS to minimise number of dls big buyers use so they pocket the difference. The same thing they are trying to pull with the new levels by basing our payment on if buyers use all their dls rather than a real percentage.

Most of us have been seeing income from SS slide for a while so something needs changing.

A system based on actual, fair, achievable percentages based on a rolling 12 months basis could be a win win for everyone involved.

The proposed version SS has rolled out is a nightmare.

Sorry, I don't agree. 10 cents per image isn't acceptable to me. (new subs)

Video subs also aren't acceptable to me.

So when I act, I act with these principles in mind. There should be a vote in regards to what the contributors want, and they need to put their portfolios on the line. No battle has ever been won by cowards or without sacrifices/risk.

« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2020, 06:09 »
0
Sorry, I don't agree. 10 cents per image isn't acceptable to me. (new subs)

Video subs also aren't acceptable to me.

So when I act, I act with these principles in mind. There should be a vote in regards to what the contributors want, and they need to put their portfolios on the line. No battle has ever been won by cowards or without sacrifices/risk.

That's fair. Without knowing how many dls get utilised by buyers I don't know how much we would make if they actually paid a real percentage. I do know some people did a calculation a few years ago and found that SS would be making a loss under the old system if the big package buyers actually used all their dls so I assume these buyers must only use a tiny fraction of their allowance (or SS was being extremely generous, in this business doubtful).

So a higher baseline guarantee? What would be the lowest you would accept for a sub sale from the biggest buyer, given that it would be offset by much higher payments from those buying smaller packages (it would have to be less than 25c of course for this to work, and we're talking for the lowest tier contributor selling less than 100 images per year).

« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2020, 06:16 »
+3
Sorry, I don't agree. 10 cents per image isn't acceptable to me. (new subs)

Video subs also aren't acceptable to me.

So when I act, I act with these principles in mind. There should be a vote in regards to what the contributors want, and they need to put their portfolios on the line. No battle has ever been won by cowards or without sacrifices/risk.

That's fair. Without knowing how many dls get utilised by buyers I don't know how much we would make if they actually paid a real percentage. I do know some people did a calculation a few years ago and found that SS would be making a loss under the old system if the big package buyers actually used all their dls so I assume these buyers must only use a tiny fraction of their allowance (or SS was being extremely generous, in this business doubtful).

So a higher baseline guarantee? What would be the lowest you would accept for a sub sale from the biggest buyer, given that it would be offset by much higher payments from those buying smaller packages (it would have to be less than 25c of course for this to work, and we're talking for the lowest tier contributor selling less than 100 images per year).

I'm not sure. Adobe has a pricing structure similar to "old shutterstock" and they had no problems paying out 33c per image to contributors. https://stock.adobe.com/plans

Some complex math would be needed to see what the minimum "should" be, and it's further complicated by the fact that we have no idea how many of the buyers have those 350/750 images plans. Someone said it's a large majority of sub sales. If so - then I wouldn't go below 33c.

If they operate at a loss (which I doubt), then increase the prices for customers. Or maybe decrease your operating costs, spend less on that fancy Empire State Building office...

« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 06:18 »
0
It's time to show our teeth.

Not just to shutterstock, but to all agencies that might try doing something similar. We succeeded with iStock (which is mostly irrelevant now) and DPC (which was shut down).

Don't let a crisis go to waste - there won't be another time like this when all contributors come together. We need to make a stand.

To reply to this point specifically I agree that we need to use all leverage that we can but please know that many huge movements (occupy etc.) fail because they don't focus at these times of crisis. They don't have simple clear goals and demands.

Yes this business has generally been awful for contributors, but my fear is that if we lump everything in together we will end up getting nothing.


« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 06:23 »
0
It's time to show our teeth.

Not just to shutterstock, but to all agencies that might try doing something similar. We succeeded with iStock (which is mostly irrelevant now) and DPC (which was shut down).

Don't let a crisis go to waste - there won't be another time like this when all contributors come together. We need to make a stand.

To reply to this point specifically I agree that we need to use all leverage that we can but please know that many huge movements (occupy etc.) fail because they don't focus at these times of crisis. They don't have simple clear goals and demands.

Yes this business has generally been awful for contributors, but my fear is that if we lump everything in together we will end up getting nothing.

I agree.

That's why I suggested a poll or a form to fill out.

Questions:

  • do you want a rolling 12 month windows for level determination (y/n)
  • subs should not be included in levels (y/n)
  • video subs should be removed (y/n)

etc.

Size of your portfolio: _____ assets
-----------
We, the undersigned, agree to disable our portfolios if our demands aren't being met.

Whatever 51%+ contributors decide, I will go with.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 06:25 by spike »

« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 06:26 »
0
Sorry, I don't agree. 10 cents per image isn't acceptable to me. (new subs)

Video subs also aren't acceptable to me.

So when I act, I act with these principles in mind. There should be a vote in regards to what the contributors want, and they need to put their portfolios on the line. No battle has ever been won by cowards or without sacrifices/risk.

That's fair. Without knowing how many dls get utilised by buyers I don't know how much we would make if they actually paid a real percentage. I do know some people did a calculation a few years ago and found that SS would be making a loss under the old system if the big package buyers actually used all their dls so I assume these buyers must only use a tiny fraction of their allowance (or SS was being extremely generous, in this business doubtful).

So a higher baseline guarantee? What would be the lowest you would accept for a sub sale from the biggest buyer, given that it would be offset by much higher payments from those buying smaller packages (it would have to be less than 25c of course for this to work, and we're talking for the lowest tier contributor selling less than 100 images per year).

I'm not sure. Adobe has a pricing structure similar to "old shutterstock" and they had no problems paying out 33c per image to contributors. https://stock.adobe.com/plans

Some complex math would be needed to see what the minimum "should" be, and it's further complicated by the fact that we have no idea how many of the buyers have those 350/750 images plans. Someone said it's a large majority of sub sales. If so - then I wouldn't go below 33c.

If they operate at a loss (which I doubt), then increase the prices for customers. Or maybe decrease your operating costs, spend less on that fancy Empire State Building office...
Oh I am absolutely sure they weren't operating at a loss, they would have been making several times what we were, I was using it as evidence that these buyers weren't using anything like their full allowance.

The major corporations have packages that are basically unlimited with a cap to just stop any funny business.

« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 06:27 »
0
It's time to show our teeth.

Not just to shutterstock, but to all agencies that might try doing something similar. We succeeded with iStock (which is mostly irrelevant now) and DPC (which was shut down).

Don't let a crisis go to waste - there won't be another time like this when all contributors come together. We need to make a stand.

To reply to this point specifically I agree that we need to use all leverage that we can but please know that many huge movements (occupy etc.) fail because they don't focus at these times of crisis. They don't have simple clear goals and demands.

Yes this business has generally been awful for contributors, but my fear is that if we lump everything in together we will end up getting nothing.

I agree.

That's why I suggested a poll or a form to fill out.

Questions:

  • do you want a rolling 12 month windows for level determination (y/n)
  • subs should not be included in levels (y/n)
  • video subs should be removed (y/n)

etc.

Size of your portfolio: _____ assets
-----------
We, the undersigned, agree to disable our portfolios if our demands aren't being met.

Whatever 51%+ contributors decide, I will go with.
Okay, I guess I am just warning against having too many questions on the list

« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2020, 06:28 »
+1

I'm not sure. Adobe has a pricing structure similar to "old shutterstock" and they had no problems paying out 33c per image to contributors. https://stock.adobe.com/plans

Some complex math would be needed to see what the minimum "should" be, and it's further complicated by the fact that we have no idea how many of the buyers have those 350/750 images plans. Someone said it's a large majority of sub sales. If so - then I wouldn't go below 33c.

If they operate at a loss (which I doubt), then increase the prices for customers. Or maybe decrease your operating costs, spend less on that fancy Empire State Building office...

Yes!  We shouldn't accept anything lower than the 33cent and the average should go way beyond the current 38cent, as sales volume decreases.
If they can get away with paying out much less than Adobe then they would have an unfair competitive edge in how much they can spend on marketing. If they win over buyers from Adobe to this new scheme that would be a disaster

« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2020, 06:32 »
0
Okay, I guess I am just warning against having too many questions on the list

I can only think of these 3.

Plus, an additional one if you choose N on "subs should not be included in levels (y/n)?"

  • what should be the minimum baseline guarantee?


Choices: 15c, 20c, 25c, 30c, 33c

That's it. That covers everything I can think of.

« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2020, 16:51 »
+2
Thinking more about it i would only find the currently propose percentage tier system acceptable is if it would be not even from previous 12 months, but from your all time totals

« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2020, 17:15 »
0

  • do you want a rolling 12 month windows for level determination (y/n)
Does that mean everyone will be stuck at a level whole year long before getting promoted/demoted?

« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2020, 17:57 »
+7
Why is everyone trying to "demand" ss to do anything? Hey SS thanks for raping us, but could you ease up on the hair pulling while you do so, pretty please?

Don't try to deal with these crooks, abandon them.


 

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