Quote from: ultimagaina on May 03, 2015, 19:55

Quote from: shudderstok on May 02, 2015, 13:55

the last shoot i went to do for stock, hence totally on spec, the parking fee alone was $7.50 for a couple of hours, not to mention my time and equipment blah blah blah, it makes no sense to me to have to sell one photo from that shoot 20- 30 times just to pay for the parking.

I most businesses you are doing fine if you can break even in a couple of years.

Last year, I went in Canada, mainly for fun but also to attend a SS conference. Today, all my trip expenses are paid back (hotel, transport, parking, food) through all these microstock micro-sales. I'm making a profit for every photo taken back then and sold today for $0.38

Worried for $7.50? Why would people expect overnight payback from microstock more than in other businesses?

I think you might be missing the point here.

Only parking was $7.50 as an example that 20-30 sales on one site would break even on that one expense alone. Don't forget to add in your travel and shoot time lets say 3 hours @ $10 per hour = $30 (a silly low wage). Post production upload time 1 hour @ $10 per hour, 2 hours if you are uploading to multiple sites.  Camera expense, computer expense, internet expense, software expense, electricity expense, rent expense, etc we can just call that around  a ridiculously low minimum of $5,000, don't forget to add the gas expense, the car insurance etc.
So you need to make at least $5047 just to break even, but really need to make at least $6000 ++ before taxes, and you have not even eaten yet. even at the so called average RPD i keep hearing about at at SS of around 0.77 that is still 6500 downloads. even on my RPD on IS as exclusive of around $10 that is still 541 downloads from just that one shoot to break even.

if you can turn a profit in one year on a trip to canada which is not cheap and most certainly more expensive than my drive downtown, then perhaps you'd like to share your secret cause i really don't get your math at all.

So your intention is that one single shoot pays for all your expenses for equipment, internet, rent and so on?

That certainly is a challenging goal....

Now you're talking! I shot 120,000 on my 40-D before the shutter died. So I keep the lenses for the rest of the cameras. I get paid enough for the rent, internet, software, and everything, for one sale. I like the way you think. 

Why hasn't anyone pointed out, Oringer gets paid $1 a year, owns 45% of the company that he started, and hasn't gotten this grant yet, because it's based on performance? The other guy gets $1 million a year, owns 100% of the company and if he goes IPO will get millions and million more?

So one is a bad guy for having a high income on paper and high net worth, maybe in the future, a bonus. And the other has been getting paid a million dollars a year, and he's a good guy for giving his staff, a living wage. He's written up in the news as some kind of saint and people here are bashing Jon for being successful?

REALLY?

Yes, we had a large part in making the agency Shutterstock what it is and a success. We could use a raise, in fact most people here, have earned a raise. But the people attacking SS and Jon at every opportunity are being one sided, closed minded, antagonists.

So your intention is that one single shoot pays for all your expenses for equipment, internet, rent and so on?

That certainly is a challenging goal....

@dirkr...

what do you think? fun twisting things isn't it. to simplify it for you, let's just put in the parking and time. still with me? total expenses assuming you will pay yourself a below minimum wage of $10 per hour is $47.50, assuming you have no other expenses at all and don't need to eat.

so let's aim high here assuming ss pays you $1 per download on average, that means you have to sell that shot 48 times to break even or perhaps let's just say 55 times pre-taxes.

now that is only for one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots. pray tell how that shot alone will sell 55 times the first year without just plain and simple dumb luck.

i doubt very much the average shot sells 55 times per year on SS.

Maybe this is a sign that you should consider something other than Microstock to earn a living?

@dirkr...

what do you think? fun twisting things isn't it. to simplify it for you, let's just put in the parking and time. still with me? total expenses assuming you will pay yourself a below minimum wage of $10 per hour is $47.50, assuming you have no other expenses at all and don't need to eat.

so let's aim high here assuming ss pays you $1 per download on average, that means you have to sell that shot 48 times to break even or perhaps let's just say 55 times pre-taxes.

now that is only for one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots. pray tell how that shot alone will sell 55 times the first year without just plain and simple dumb luck.

i doubt very much the average shot sells 55 times per year on SS.

You get one shot when you go on a shoot?

Seriously. I'm not a photographer, but I would expect to get a lot more than one shot up online if I were going out of my way to pay for parking, etc., on a location. If you get 48 decent shots (I have no idea if that's realistic) they'd each have to sell once. I would think most people's images average more than one sale per year on SS, and you'd also have to add sales on the other sites in because SS has no exclusivity.

Quote from: shudderstok on May 04, 2015, 11:17

@dirkr...

what do you think? fun twisting things isn't it. to simplify it for you, let's just put in the parking and time. still with me? total expenses assuming you will pay yourself a below minimum wage of $10 per hour is $47.50, assuming you have no other expenses at all and don't need to eat.

so let's aim high here assuming ss pays you $1 per download on average, that means you have to sell that shot 48 times to break even or perhaps let's just say 55 times pre-taxes.

now that is only for one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots. pray tell how that shot alone will sell 55 times the first year without just plain and simple dumb luck.

i doubt very much the average shot sells 55 times per year on SS.

You get one shot when you go on a shoot?

Seriously. I'm not a photographer, but I would expect to get a lot more than one shot up online if I were going out of my way to pay for parking, etc., on a location. If you get 48 decent shots (I have no idea if that's realistic) they'd each have to sell once. I would think most people's images average more than one sale per year on SS, and you'd also have to add sales on the other sites in because SS has no exclusivity.

have you ever heard of the saying "quality over quantity"? i am ruthless at editing and very selective in what i submit. perhaps that is one reason i survive in this game.

Am I allowed to agree 1000% or am I locked in at real math, just 100%?

Yes to both, we all make individual choices. And if the expenses don't meet our income needs, there's a serious problem.

The you wasn't meant as YOU personally but any person in general, who's finding they are unhappy and not making enough to live, as a full time Microstock artist. Time to consider other alternatives.

"Maybe this is a sign that you should consider something other than Microstock to earn a living?"

Why would I do that? So I can go get a day job? No thanks. I make a fairly decent living shooting stock/microstock. I just don't waste my time on certain sites that I don't agree with the royalty structure. From the posts above it is noted why.

"OK ...so what's THE SOLUTION, Shudderstock?"

We all have to find that answer for ourselves, and for me it is not selling a photo 20-30 times to just pay for parking.

Quote from: Shelma1 on May 04, 2015, 11:55

Quote from: shudderstok on May 04, 2015, 11:17

@dirkr...

what do you think? fun twisting things isn't it. to simplify it for you, let's just put in the parking and time. still with me? total expenses assuming you will pay yourself a below minimum wage of $10 per hour is $47.50, assuming you have no other expenses at all and don't need to eat.

so let's aim high here assuming ss pays you $1 per download on average, that means you have to sell that shot 48 times to break even or perhaps let's just say 55 times pre-taxes.

now that is only for one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots. pray tell how that shot alone will sell 55 times the first year without just plain and simple dumb luck.

i doubt very much the average shot sells 55 times per year on SS.

You get one shot when you go on a shoot?

Seriously. I'm not a photographer, but I would expect to get a lot more than one shot up online if I were going out of my way to pay for parking, etc., on a location. If you get 48 decent shots (I have no idea if that's realistic) they'd each have to sell once. I would think most people's images average more than one sale per year on SS, and you'd also have to add sales on the other sites in because SS has no exclusivity.

have you ever heard of the saying "quality over quantity"? i am ruthless at editing and very selective in what i submit. perhaps that is one reason i survive in this game.

Perhaps. But unfortunately you're now competing against mass quantities of really high quality shots.

And if your approach is working for you, why so angry? Forget Shutterstock and keep ruthlessly editing. Some of us have found it works to take a different approach. To each her own.

@dirkr...

what do you think? fun twisting things isn't it. to simplify it for you, let's just put in the parking and time. still with me? total expenses assuming you will pay yourself a below minimum wage of $10 per hour is $47.50, assuming you have no other expenses at all and don't need to eat.

so let's aim high here assuming ss pays you $1 per download on average, that means you have to sell that shot 48 times to break even or perhaps let's just say 55 times pre-taxes.

now that is only for one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots. pray tell how that shot alone will sell 55 times the first year without just plain and simple dumb luck.

i doubt very much the average shot sells 55 times per year on SS.

twisting? you brought up needing to make $5000+ to break even on that shoot.

Now if that shoot leaves you with "one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots", well good luck breaking even with that on IS.

And how does that match your "quality over quantity" argument?

I get you don't want to sell on SS due to their subs model. Fine. Your choice. But if you pull completely unrealistic numbers out of the air to support your claim that SS is evil, don't expect others not to challenge that.

Quote from: shudderstok on May 04, 2015, 11:17

@dirkr...

what do you think? fun twisting things isn't it. to simplify it for you, let's just put in the parking and time. still with me? total expenses assuming you will pay yourself a below minimum wage of $10 per hour is $47.50, assuming you have no other expenses at all and don't need to eat.

so let's aim high here assuming ss pays you $1 per download on average, that means you have to sell that shot 48 times to break even or perhaps let's just say 55 times pre-taxes.

now that is only for one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots. pray tell how that shot alone will sell 55 times the first year without just plain and simple dumb luck.

i doubt very much the average shot sells 55 times per year on SS.

twisting? you brought up needing to make $5000+ to break even on that shoot.

Now if that shoot leaves you with "one basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots", well good luck breaking even with that on IS.

And how does that match your "quality over quantity" argument?

I get you don't want to sell on SS due to their subs model. Fine. Your choice. But if you pull completely unrealistic numbers out of the air to support your claim that SS is evil, don't expect others not to challenge that.

you seem to take things literally. i also get you don't have a full understanding of the real expense of shooting full time. also, most shots these days are "basic nothing new not inventing the wheel there are thousands of them out there skyline shots"

so pray tell, are you making a full time living from shooting stock?

so how much would it cost you to shoot that one blah shot? include everything, all the outlay of expense. even if you went out and shot and uploaded every three days, just your equipment expense alone for the year based on my $5000 theory would still cost you $50 per day in expense, assuming you paid for your gear in cash and don't have a bunch of it on credit card.

Quote from: ultimagaina on May 04, 2015, 12:12

Quote from: shudderstok on May 04, 2015, 10:08

I think you might be missing the point here.

Only parking was $7.50 as an example that 20-30 sales on one site would break even on that one expense alone. Don't forget to add in your travel and shoot time lets say 3 hours @ $10 per hour = $30 (a silly low wage). Post production upload time 1 hour @ $10 per hour, 2 hours if you are uploading to multiple sites.  Camera expense, computer expense, internet expense, software expense, electricity expense, rent expense, etc we can just call that around  a ridiculously low minimum of $5,000, don't forget to add the gas expense, the car insurance etc.
So you need to make at least $5047 just to break even, but really need to make at least $6000 ++ before taxes, and you have not even eaten yet. even at the so called average RPD i keep hearing about at at SS of around 0.77 that is still 6500 downloads. even on my RPD on IS as exclusive of around $10 that is still 541 downloads from just that one shoot to break even.

if you can turn a profit in one year on a trip to canada which is not cheap and most certainly more expensive than my drive downtown, then perhaps you'd like to share your secret cause i really don't get your math at all.

I'm not missing the point.
You are the one that moans for a $7.50 parking.
FYI, I paid $70 last weekend for transport, tolls, parking, entrance fees and I'm certain that all these will be amortized within a year.

I'm restating that, if given a couple of years, you can't make enough from microstock to justify the expenses required by your $7.50 parking photo-shoot, then you are doing something wrong.

what part of i have no interest in selling an image 20-30 times on SS to break even on my parking are you not getting? i sell an image once elsewhere and turn an immediate profit. it's a no brainer as far as i can see. it works well for me, and it seems to really p!ss you off.

You mean an immediate profit on your parking? That does an EL on SS as well. One sale. But its not really a profit is it, because you need to factor in all cost of the shoot.

Quote from: ultimagaina on May 04, 2015, 12:56

Quote from: shudderstok on May 04, 2015, 12:23

Quote from: ultimagaina on May 04, 2015, 12:12

Quote from: shudderstok on May 04, 2015, 10:08

I think you might be missing the point here.

Only parking was $7.50 as an example that 20-30 sales on one site would break even on that one expense alone. Don't forget to add in your travel and shoot time lets say 3 hours @ $10 per hour = $30 (a silly low wage). Post production upload time 1 hour @ $10 per hour, 2 hours if you are uploading to multiple sites.  Camera expense, computer expense, internet expense, software expense, electricity expense, rent expense, etc we can just call that around  a ridiculously low minimum of $5,000, don't forget to add the gas expense, the car insurance etc.
So you need to make at least $5047 just to break even, but really need to make at least $6000 ++ before taxes, and you have not even eaten yet. even at the so called average RPD i keep hearing about at at SS of around 0.77 that is still 6500 downloads. even on my RPD on IS as exclusive of around $10 that is still 541 downloads from just that one shoot to break even.

if you can turn a profit in one year on a trip to canada which is not cheap and most certainly more expensive than my drive downtown, then perhaps you'd like to share your secret cause i really don't get your math at all.

I'm not missing the point.
You are the one that moans for a $7.50 parking.
FYI, I paid $70 last weekend for transport, tolls, parking, entrance fees and I'm certain that all these will be amortized within a year.

I'm restating that, if given a couple of years, you can't make enough from microstock to justify the expenses required by your $7.50 parking photo-shoot, then you are doing something wrong.

what part of i have no interest in selling an image 20-30 times on SS to break even on my parking are you not getting? i sell an image once elsewhere and turn an immediate profit. it's a no brainer as far as i can see. it works well for me, and it seems to really p!ss you off.

Not at all, my dear. You are the one p!$$ed off. And btw, it only takes me 7 downloads from SS alone to pay your $7.50 parking

you are doing much better than most then, cause on another thread people are suggesting 0.55 - 0.77 average, so you are apparently doing much better. but still 7 times to pay for parking? wow.

Then you should have said, 10-14 downloads for your $7.50 parking, not 20-30 as you suggest.
Why such exagerations?

@U...
i stand corrected on that one, as i originally posted based on the .25-.38 thing, so yes 10-14 which is still a joke to pay for parking.

@S...
 i only wish my cameras lasted 8 years, two is the average for me, but then i work those puppies hard. my gear on average costs me around 2k per year on average.
oh and congrats on your day.

Good. So it is OK to cut all your numbers in half, since you have about 100% exagerations built in?

@U...
i stand corrected on that one, as i originally posted based on the .25-.38 thing, so yes 10-14 which is still a joke to pay for parking.

@S...
 i only wish my cameras lasted 8 years, two is the average for me, but then i work those puppies hard. my gear on average costs me around 2k per year on average, which is 7 downloads every day at SS or 0.5 per day on IS (based on reported averages of 0.77 at SS and what i get on average of $10 at IS) just to break even. that does not cover the parking fee to pick up my gear LOL.
oh and congrats on your day.

You're comparing apples to oranges. You spend a lot of time and money on one shot and sell it occasionally. Microstockers spend a lot less on many shots and sell them often. I have seasonal images that sell 20+ times a day just on Shutterstock. If you count PP and subs they sell a dozen times a day on iStock. There are illustrators and photographers who sell a lot more than I do. Macro and micro are two different supply and demand chains.

Global marketplace...they'd look to the countries where people can make a good living with little money. And based on their history, SS would conduct research to determine how much pay is worth their while.