Please re-direct this to the Symbiostock forum. Those of us that have chosen to block Symbiostock threads don't want this stuff cluttering the microstock forum.

I'm sure anyone reading this can understand it as a positive step.

Its quite the opposite for me.



ETA: OP was changed, this comment is no longer applicable in the light of the edited OP

Nothing wrong with you, but it's just too big for one person to be held responsible for everything. Too bad the team couldn't be constructed, to make this work. That's what it needs. Not a bunch of independent developers, who fly around, doing what they think, but a team that work together and integrate their goals.

Well, I kinda think that what we need on the legal side, licensing terms for the Symbiostock network that force people to use certain disclaimers and pre-defined licenses and the pre-defined licenses themselves,  could be done by pro bono people.

I'm curious -- are there any other lawyers around? I am not an IP lawyer and my admission status is a bit wobbly right now, but I would generally be willing to help.

As I have only loosely followed Symbiostock so far (didn't have the time to make a site), excuse my possibly stupid question: is there some sort of legal entity (i.e. a corporation) behind it? Otherwise that would likely have to be created, too.

I had that same bad dream last night, Jo Ann.

You've given a good summation of the situation. Leo has taken on too much for any human to continue doing unless it's his full-time day job. Which (as we all know) this isn't.
 
Somehow, our community has to find a solution. I'm not sure what that will be, but I'm sure it's out there. Somewhere.

I am talking to someone, bear with me. Maybe we can solve this easily and at a fair price.

so the security risk, I mentioned half a year ago showed its ugly face.

No it is worse. The site came to a halt because of lack of manpower. I mentioned Leo as the biggest security risk, and that has proven true.

And this is not personal, towards Leo, he did a great job. But you simply dont develop sites based on one mans knowledge and development skills. Its a far too vulnerable construction.
The synergy between subsides is also a risk if not harnessed and pushed in a direction.

it compares to wanting to make a fruit juice cooperative and send fruitpluckers out in all directions, and when there are pluckers enough, you begin to look for the barrels and stoves. And two sisters begin to pluck mushrooms instead of berries because they are beautiful.

It is not good enough. Not focused.
Structure, friends, and aim.
Come up with a goal and a plan.

What's come to a halt?

There are more Symbiostock-linked sites than ever, more images than ever (more than 170,000 now). More sales than ever. People are find ways to make their sites look awesome.

Symbiostock's death has been greatly exaggerated.

Those words were an unfortunate choice indeed.

But, I am already talking to someone who is willing to help with the legal side. I have emailed Leo about it. We'll see where it goes. But if its only to provide a legal disclaimer for Leo, its no problem and probably very quickly sorted.

No it is worse. The site came to a halt because of lack of manpower. I mentioned Leo as the biggest security risk, and that has proven true.

And this is not personal, towards Leo, he did a great job. But you simply dont develop sites based on one mans knowledge and development skills. Its a far too vulnerable construction.
The synergy between subsides is also a risk if not harnessed and pushed in a direction.

it compares to wanting to make a fruit juice cooperative and send fruitpluckers out in all directions, and when there are pluckers enough, you begin to look for the barrels and stoves. And two sisters begin to pluck mushrooms instead of berries because they are beautiful.

It is not good enough. Not focused.
Structure, friends, and aim.
Come up with a goal and a plan.

Not so much... I now have a working website that sells which I can hire my own programmer to update if I need to. There would need to be some serious changes to wordpress before this is ever an issue. At that point I would consider it a cost of doing business which is far less expensive than paying someone to build me a custom platform. Furthermore I can network with a few other site owners to offset the cost of the upgrades. This is not a security risk unless you feel like you are entitled to free software which should be maintained at no cost to you for as long as you want. If you feel that way then yes... you are probably viewing this as a potential problem. I see symbio as an almost free platform for selling my images which I can do with whatever I please for as long as I want to support it. I am grateful for what has been done up to now and if I want more I can go out and pay someone to do it for me. Maybe if my custom upgrade is useful enough I can sell it to others for a reasonable price and recoup my expenses.

Quote from: chromaco on November 18, 2013, 13:42

Not so much... I now have a working website that sells which I can hire my own programmer to update if I need to. There would need to be some serious changes to wordpress before this is ever an issue. At that point I would consider it a cost of doing business which is far less expensive than paying someone to build me a custom platform. Furthermore I can network with a few other site owners to offset the cost of the upgrades. This is not a security risk unless you feel like you are entitled to free software which should be maintained at no cost to you for as long as you want. If you feel that way then yes... you are probably viewing this as a potential problem. I see symbio as an almost free platform for selling my images which I can do with whatever I please for as long as I want to support it. I am grateful for what has been done up to now and if I want more I can go out and pay someone to do it for me. Maybe if my custom upgrade is useful enough I can sell it to others for a reasonable price and recoup my expenses.

I guess it would depend on the frequency of having to hire somebody. If it is only every few years, then maybe not a big deal. If it is every couple months, then it starts to become a problem. I'm not sure how often Leo makes updates now or how often things need to be updated. I was thinking that I'd create a Symbio site in the next few months or so, but I assume that it will require more maintenance than my KTools site by virtue of it being linked to Wordpress.

Well don't hold me to this because I really know very little about the programming but I believe almost all of the upgrades to Symbio have been adding functionality and debugging. I'm not sure if there has been any need at all for upgrading to keep consistent with Wordpress. If there ever was that need I have no doubt that the 150 plus members of the network would figure out a way to pool resources to get the job done.
What I was referring to was things like plugins - I could really use a plugin that does some reporting of sales and views etc. I might have to hire someone to build it for me and then I would try to defray the expense by sharing the cost or selling the plugin to other site owners. I think this is what Leo had in mind when he started this project.

Hello everyone,

I'm happy to see a lot of qualified voices in this. Also most of you don't seem to see an issue with the hodge-podge licensing where I have -- at least not in terms of a liability. Its always great to know that I'm just paranoid and nobody is out to get me ... I felt this roll-your-own approach to people's licensing could somehow come back on me, but it seems as though I'm quite safe behind the GPL shield and a few other factors mentioned.

Having slept on this issue, I've made a final decision.

First - I'm going to rewrite Symbiostock entirely, making a HUGE provision for documentation. http://codex.wordpress.org/ is autogenerated from a comment system right within wordpress's code. I can do the same thing and make a Symbiostock codex, allowing coders to come in without tripping.

Second, in this rewrite, I'm going to get rid of most of the bugs by removing features that are not needed, by rewriting functions to be a little more flexible, and making the system as a whole slightly more modular.

Last, its going to be simplified as a whole so even the newest among us can get through it easily.

What we have here is a giant prototype attemping to work as a finished product. To a high degree, its worked and its quite refined. But the thing about prototypes is nobody likes to know duck-tape is a part of what's holding their shiny new product together . In a coding sense, Symbiostock still has a bit of duck-tape and hand-cut parts. The prototype simply has to be reformed into an industrially produced and reliable finished product.

This means a lot of work for me for quite possibly another month, but at this point if I don't address it, its going to be even more work for me infinitely. At this time I help people on a sense of duty, and 5/6 times the problem is not even Symbiostock. So I'm at the choice of dying of fatigue, or dropping the whole project. Believe it or not, I'm a guy who finishes what he starts (I've just finished a rather cool machine here at home, which spins perfect spirals of 32 gauge wire) so you can trust I'm not a quitter.

But there's too much me, and not enough everyone "others" when it comes to the code. I feel by giving this one last overhaul and writing a codex, you will have more coders, and quite possibly a very experienced and seasoned set of them. You can expect you might have to pay a few of them, but at least you know things are in good hands.

Lastly, we need a co-op of decision makers. Not just a bunch of guys talking about ideas over beer. We really need a trusted few to make network decisions as it applies to the science of Stock Photo itself and how Symbiostock will implement them. Ideas that translate easily into developments.

Our JSPK holds a very strict standard, but he's right to a degree. Something of this nature has to be more than two or three persons, or more than a few coders.

In the meantime, it would be very important for the network to have a central license site, referenced by most other sites.

I hope this is considered a step forward. I'm going to start making the final and simplified Symbio this week.

Yes - Development Help, Yes - Documentation, and License - Library: Yes/No - should be available but independent of Symbiostock, so the project isn't dragged into any legal issues that might arise.

I don't know what Licensing Must Be Addressed actually means? SYS software, image licenses, like RM or Editorial or what?

Hmm, did I hit a language barrier here. Is the question a Uniform license between linked sites? That's something different from a mandated license. Anyone who understands, can you explain? I was reading it as, each site is independent, so if someone has an issues, it should leave all the other sites and Leo harmless and not part of anything.

But if the question is, uniform licenses so a buyer can move from site to site and have the same expectations and understanding. That's different.

Which is it?

It's just way to large (too much to expect also) and complicated for one person. How can we find help for Leo? He delivered the baby and raised it to this point. Now someone needs to help make it grow and get socialized and educated. 

So, I'm trying to parse what Leo posted above and figure out what he's asking for. If I had to translate it, what I read is "I'm overwhelmed doing this by myself and need to bring in more help to keep the project going".

It seems that other than all the work we do on our own sites, the project needs:

1. One or two developers to work on the code on an ongoing basis:
    a. keeping up with WordPress updates
    b. finishing features
    c. adding new features

    To do any of the above, the current code needs some sort of documentation so other people can more easily work on it. Probably some sort of source code control system is needed - moving things from one person's computer to somewhere multiple people can access it and work

2. A few people to work on updating and adding to the documentation for getting new sites up and running. Amanda made a start, but that needs fleshing out and updating.

3. Setting up a library of licenses, FAQs, logos, marketing materials for sites to use, possibly including some rules or guidelines on use.

I'm not sure how substantive the worries are about each site having its own licensing terms are. In the time I've been selling stock, I've been aware of a number of lawsuits but it's almost always been over content in an image, not over anything to do with a license.

Anything else?

First - I'm going to rewrite Symbiostock entirely, making a HUGE provision for documentation. http://codex.wordpress.org/ is autogenerated from a comment system right within wordpress's code. I can do the same thing and make a Symbiostock codex, allowing coders to come in without tripping.

what will this mean for current symbiostock sites?  what will the transition involve?

Second, in this rewrite, I'm going to get rid of most of the bugs by removing features that are not needed, by rewriting functions to be a little more flexible, and making the system as a whole slightly more modular.

what are these features?  before diving in, it would be helpful to have a discussion of possible changes and approaches;  there may be alternatives that are even better than the first ideas.  better to design  first, before coding makes it so much harder to make changes

as part of these changes will you be using the same database? if not, the database really needs an extensive re-design for searching, editing and tracking uses

finally, the 1-2 month estimate is unlikely to be realistic, and no matter how carefully designed & coded, there will be bugs, so it's important to involve testing at an early stage.  again design here is important -- the overall structure should be put in place first, since that's where most problems arise.  the details of how a particular feature functions can be left for later

Can someone please explain what "Licensing Must be Addressed"  means?

This comment completely lost me:

Basically: "use our standard licenses or you will not be a part of the network and won't be allowed to use the brand "Symbiostock", but you can still use and adapt the theme".

I can understand if he doesn't package a license and that leaves him out of potential litigation. Offering a standard "approved" license might complicate that separation. Very understandable.

I can understand the all different part too, as a buyer moves from site to site, and finds, each one has a different license. Confusing, complicated could be a negative.

I still don't understand this part at all? MarcvsTvllivs "use our standard licenses or you will not be a part of the network and won't be allowed to use the brand "Symbiostock", but you can still use and adapt the theme".

Leo was concerned that all of us - and he - could be exposing ourselves to liability by having licenses that were (a) all different and (b) mostly not drafted or approved by lawyers. I think he decided after some comments from site owners that it probably wasn't quite as dire as he'd first feared

Quote from: Uncle Pete on November 21, 2013, 21:32

I can understand the all different part too, as a buyer moves from site to site, and finds, each one has a different license. Confusing, complicated could be a negative.

I don't really like to compare Symbiostock to the major microstock sites (since I believe that the customers are very different), but the same is true of them as well.  A license on IS is different than SS which is different than DT which is different than FT which is different than 123RF, ad infinitum.

Very good post.. In fact, It's so good that it would easily summarize a book named "Licensing for dummies.."

This issue has been pointlessly brought up over and over again and discussed way more than it needed to be discussed..

Honestly, since the beginning, I don't get what's all the fuss about?? Everybody is responsible for their own sites.. Full Stop..

I assumed he was getting some sort of affiliate kickback from Bluehost.  Is that not the case then?  I doubt it would be very substantial anyway, certainly not a good hourly rate for the time he has put in.