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Author Topic: How to keep Symbiostock from being crap stock?  (Read 8180 times)

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« on: April 07, 2013, 11:30 »
0
As I start to upload images I think about how many of these are "good" enough to be on my site and how many are fillers.  Without a review process I might ( will likely) post images that others consider crap.

If all the people on the network post there good images as well as their "also ran" images can the network ever be successful?

A couple of ideas are bouncing in my brain... but it is starting to rain and I loose internet in the rain.... :(

Glenn


Leo Blanchette

« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 12:01 »
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Good Seoul believe it or not. Good unique pointed titles and descriptions

« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 12:10 »
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Leo,

Regarding SEO I installed SEO wordpress like  you suggested and I use it for each picture putting title copy the description (with some words in bold in the metadata) and add a focus keyword
However when I look at the page code after I do not find the alt tag,or I read it is important to have for images, did I miss something?


The topic came up on WP but not real answers were given: http://wordpress.org/support/topic/plugin-wordpress-seo-by-yoast-missing-alt-tags
Cheers
L

Never mind, the alt are there did not found them at first:)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 18:44 by MicrostockExp »

« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 12:27 »
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I know that some of my earlier work is crap. After uploading to microstock and shooting for 7 years now, I can look back on some of that work and decide what I should leave in or out. Some of the images I will leave out, some are fixable, now that I have way more color correcting and Photoshop skills. But I just ran across one of my best sellers this morning and was thinking that it really is amazing what sells well and what I think is crap. If it's technically good and you can imagine it being used in an ad, article, blog, or somewhere else, then I say leave it in.

« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 15:40 »
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SEO will help us with google but I don't think it will bring return buyers if the network is full of crap...though "one man's garbage is another man's treasure"

I would like to propose a shift in what this network is.

I would like to see a way to have the images curated.  I would like to see the curators get a (small) percentage of the sales that they generate.

The way I see this is:  xyzstockcurator, lists on their site images that they like from the entire network. When a buyer purchases through ( through not from) xyzstockcurator 5% of the sale goes to them, the other 95% goes to the contributor.

This could be a way for photo-editors to help expand and grow the network.

If we can put this into place we could even do something like 1% of sales goes to symbio stock co-op inc ltd, to be used for development and marketing.

« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 15:47 »
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Can you have a closed network and decide who you want to team up with? Collection curator's play a big role in the success of a stock collection.

« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2013, 17:20 »
+2
Curating is difficult. We are with an edited macro agency, and are often surprised at the files they turn down - proven sellers which did well on Getty. We get sales on Alamy from files turned down by others.

We need to watch how things develop, and then make decisions on who to link with, most likely in closed networks, as Cardmaverick suggests. At the moment we don't know enough - is it better to link with people with similar portfolios, or those with very different work? Also there aren't enough people yet with sites up to give a lot of choice of who to link with.

People really should self curate. We have about 5000-6000 images on various sites, but will only put about 2000 on Symbiostock. Some of them look like crap, but they have sold well.

Then again, maybe we'll also add some real crap to thwart the copycats, and make posts about how well it's selling ;D ;D ;D

Leo Blanchette

« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2013, 18:28 »
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Its everyones sandbox so ill enjoy seeing where it goes. Ill look into above mentioned prbs when I get home

farbled

« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2013, 19:26 »
+1
Curating is difficult. We are with an edited macro agency, and are often surprised at the files they turn down - proven sellers which did well on Getty. We get sales on Alamy from files turned down by others.

We need to watch how things develop, and then make decisions on who to link with, most likely in closed networks, as Cardmaverick suggests. At the moment we don't know enough - is it better to link with people with similar portfolios, or those with very different work? Also there aren't enough people yet with sites up to give a lot of choice of who to link with.

People really should self curate. We have about 5000-6000 images on various sites, but will only put about 2000 on Symbiostock. Some of them look like crap, but they have sold well.

Then again, maybe we'll also add some real crap to thwart the copycats, and make posts about how well it's selling ;D ;D ;D
For me this whole project is about putting the choices (and the money) back into the individual photographer's hands and away from agencies. So I agree, self curate, self price and find the kinds of sites you want to network with that appeal to you.

« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 05:18 »
+1
Curating is difficult. We are with an edited macro agency, and are often surprised at the files they turn down - proven sellers which did well on Getty. We get sales on Alamy from files turned down by others.

We need to watch how things develop, and then make decisions on who to link with, most likely in closed networks, as Cardmaverick suggests. At the moment we don't know enough - is it better to link with people with similar portfolios, or those with very different work? Also there aren't enough people yet with sites up to give a lot of choice of who to link with.

People really should self curate. We have about 5000-6000 images on various sites, but will only put about 2000 on Symbiostock. Some of them look like crap, but they have sold well.

Then again, maybe we'll also add some real crap to thwart the copycats, and make posts about how well it's selling ;D ;D ;D
For me this whole project is about putting the choices (and the money) back into the individual photographer's hands and away from agencies. So I agree, self curate, self price and find the kinds of sites you want to network with that appeal to you.


Ditto. If I am networked with a site that i think has taken a wrong turn, i can change that. Hopefully there eill be more people jumping onboard and our networking choices will be more than 5.

RacePhoto

« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 09:11 »
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Now people want to control what I put on my site? So much for the freedom of choice and individual galleries.

Curator (lets be honest Censorship) to do what, restrict me from having photos of frogs, rocks, beer... naked Barbie Dolls or something that someone else deems inappropriate.

So what's needed is some link blocking, but person A says, my sites OK, person B says no, the whole chain just imploded.

What's to say (totally hypothetical) I don't like Horses or Unicorns photos because I'm a car guy, so now do I block everyone with those?

Along with freedom of artistic choice, you are going to have to allow others personal freedom and choices which you may not agree with. Otherwise it's not free thinking, or freedom of choice anymore, is it?

Maybe the answer is only link to people you approve of and all in your personal clique agree not to cross the borders, or link to anyone else that's not up to passing your approval standards. Become your own little "elite" artists alliance. That's how you control and curate.

As I start to upload images I think about how many of these are "good" enough to be on my site and how many are fillers.  Without a review process I might ( will likely) post images that others consider crap.

If all the people on the network post there good images as well as their "also ran" images can the network ever be successful?

Glenn

I would like to see a way to have the images curated.


Do you want me to come to your site and tell you what you should have for sale and what not? Then why do you want to come to mine, or someone else and do that?

Let the buyers decide!

« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2013, 09:28 »
+2
I read it as being more to check on the quality of the images, we have all seen photos that look great as thumbnails but absolute rubbish at full size with regard to noise, sharpness etc.  If someone has a gallery full of noisy, out of focus pictures of  people with heads missing, poles growing out of them, lots of logos etc then they could quickly ruin the reputation of the network. 

Someone totally new to stock and seeing the software available and thinking "oh I could make some money easily at that " who has never gone through the stock review minefield and learned what is generally required might need a little nudge in the right direction and I would think for the sake of everyone else we should be entitled to let them know.

Sure, you can put whatever you want on your site and in your galleries but if I don't like what someone is doing I would not link to them

RacePhoto

« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2013, 09:33 »
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Exactly, don't link to them. But say A links to B and B links to C and A doesn't approve of C... now what?

Curator, and reviews (and people who want to control others artistic ideas?) kind of defeat the whole independence theory don't they? With the curator plan, I need approval from the group to run my own website?


I read it as being more to check on the quality of the images, we have all seen photos that look great as thumbnails but absolute rubbish at full size with regard to noise, sharpness etc.  If someone has a gallery full of noisy, out of focus pictures of  people with heads missing, poles growing out of them, lots of logos etc then they could quickly ruin the reputation of the network. 

Someone totally new to stock and seeing the software available and thinking "oh I could make some money easily at that " who has never gone through the stock review minefield and learned what is generally required might need a little nudge in the right direction and I would think for the sake of everyone else we should be entitled to let them know.

Sure, you can put whatever you want on your site and in your galleries but if I don't like what someone is doing I would not link to them

« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 09:36 »
0
I see it more as linking to people who have things i dont, like people images. And yes, i would like the quality to be there, but again, cell phone and instagram photos are selling, so who am i to say.  As far as "curating" (the new buzz word  ::) ), i will leave that to the agencies. Theres a reason im investing time in putting up my own site and it isnt so someone else can tell whats good or not. I can get that info myself by checking my sales.

« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 09:41 »
0
Exactly, don't link to them. But say A links to B and B links to C and A doesn't approve of C... now what?

Curator, and reviews (and people who want to control others artistic ideas?) kind of defeat the whole independence theory don't they? With the curator plan, I need approval from the group to run my own website?


I read it as being more to check on the quality of the images, we have all seen photos that look great as thumbnails but absolute rubbish at full size with regard to noise, sharpness etc.  If someone has a gallery full of noisy, out of focus pictures of  people with heads missing, poles growing out of them, lots of logos etc then they could quickly ruin the reputation of the network. 

Someone totally new to stock and seeing the software available and thinking "oh I could make some money easily at that " who has never gone through the stock review minefield and learned what is generally required might need a little nudge in the right direction and I would think for the sake of everyone else we should be entitled to let them know.

Sure, you can put whatever you want on your site and in your galleries but if I don't like what someone is doing I would not link to them


A's stuff doesnt show on Cs so its irrelevant. Who i have in my network only means that their images show when someone searches my site but it doesnt go the other way unless that person also networks back to me. So the only thing showing on your site are images you choose. This isnt facebook.  :)

« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 09:44 »
+1
Get your website up and running and then worry about who to link to or who you want to link to you - you can remain independent if you do not like what everyone else is doing

« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 10:02 »
0


Do you want me to come to your site and tell you what you should have for sale and what not? Then why do you want to come to mine, or someone else and do that?

Let the buyers decide!

No I don't want to "tell" you what to put on your site.

What I want is a way to link to what I think are the best images on your site, and other sites in the network.  Then I can publish a list of "Glenn's list of best racing pics" ( if you are on model mayhem think of lists of images)  I will then have a "curated" list of what I think are "the best"

If I get known as a good editor of images, I will have buyers coming to my site in order to quickly find what I consider the best ( if they don't like my vision then they may go to XYZ because they like their vision)

This will not effect what you publish on your site at all!!!!

Does this make sense?

Glenn

« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 10:19 »
0
Why are we doing this?  We want to make money
How do we make money? By having buyers find, like, and purchase our images.
How do we compete against the agencies? We have to offer something that they don't.

Do we offer lower prices....  I don't think so.
Do we offer quality image.... Yes

We are in the business that crowd sources images, but the buyer has to weed through the images to find what they want.  The agencies have search engines that provide "best match".

I would like to open up the network to allow for crowd source curation, or photo editors or ????

What we can offer, which is different, is humans creating collections based around themes that the humans are interested in.

I think this is how we can market the network.... and make money.

Glenn

farbled

« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 10:21 »
+2
I understand what you're after, but I think you may have a hard time finding network connections willing to kick a percentage of sales back to help promote it.

Give it time, we'll see all kinds of innovations once this goes mainstream. I suspect we'll see lots of people who have never heard of microstock trying this out for all kinds of downloadable products.

« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 10:31 »
0
I understand what you're after, but I think you may have a hard time finding network connections willing to kick a percentage of sales back to help promote it.


I don't know... right now we are used to giving away 50% or more in fees... I would be happy to pay 5-10% to someone who is better at marketing than I am.

Glenn

« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 10:44 »
0
Instead of paying someone to check our images why not, if anyone wants to spend money - put it into some kind of marketing.  I have no idea what as this is not my field but I expect someone does :)

« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 10:56 »
0
They way I see it, no one is paid to check our images... they get paid if they "sell" images.  No cost, of fees to you, just a small percentage of what is sold through their site.

RacePhoto

« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 11:21 »
0
They way I see it, no one is paid to check our images... they get paid if they "sell" images.  No cost, of fees to you, just a small percentage of what is sold through their site.

Yes and I shouldn't have quoted only you.

The idea that some people were going with was restricting and "I would like to see a way to have the images curated." as judging others portfolios. Your idea of someone doing a best of site is something different. Optional, and someone can join or ignore, not a bad idea at all. But I don't know why that agent/curator would be any better than being independent?

I still don't see it as any benefit, giving up 5% to have someone select what they think is best and have a duplicate site, but fine, go for it. Paying someone for better marketing. Fine, as individuals pick and choose.

We need to watch how things develop, and then make decisions on who to link with, most likely in closed networks, as Cardmaverick suggests.
For me this whole project is about putting the choices (and the money) back into the individual photographer's hands and away from agencies. So I agree, self curate, self price and find the kinds of sites you want to network with that appeal to you.

That covers it. Self choice and networks that appeal to our own direction. The part I like the most is 100% of what I sell/license, goes to me. No one says what is CrapStock and what's not, or how much I should sell my work for. (or what I should call my website!)



« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 11:27 »
+5
So far I have been very happy with SymbioStock, every single one of my images has been accepted.  ;D

« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 06:39 »
0
I understand what you're after, but I think you may have a hard time finding network connections willing to kick a percentage of sales back to help promote it.
some people are good at selling some are better artists, it would be just fair to give some money back to tje people that are good in selling. Personally I'm ready to give anyone 50% of the selling price who sells my art.

RacePhoto

« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2013, 10:40 »
+1
So far I have been very happy with SymbioStock, every single one of my images has been accepted.  ;D

I'm looking forward to the same experience. ♥ That and if I get 100% of nothing at least I know someone else isn't taking 80% of that?  ::)

« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 11:50 »
+1
Personally I'm ready to give anyone 50% of the selling price who sells my art.

50% would be way too much for the network situation.  As well as producing the images, you have the hard cost of web storage and bandwidth, as well as the soft costs of keywording etc.,

« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 13:09 »
+1
50%? Why bother you in symbiostock or with a website? At  this point sell with the agencies. When you pay equipment, host, keywording time, promoting your site, what you get? Sincerely is the worst business plan heard in symbiostock section.

Leo Blanchette

« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 19:57 »
+1
50%? Why bother you in symbiostock or with a website? At  this point sell with the agencies. When you pay equipment, host, keywording time, promoting your site, what you get? Sincerely is the worst business plan heard in symbiostock section.

LOL I guess we were due for a negative comment eventually. Symbiostock will never be taking commissions btw. But if I hadn't downloaded my own image from a  google app for free (thanks for tipping us off sjlocke) Symbiostock would not exist. So its going to pay to have a life-raft as sjlocke scenerios continue to inevitably become more commonplace-because they will. You can't tame an animal meant to be wild. The biggest corporations will always do this, because that is what they are made to do, and its what they must do. Its not even a rational issue, its simply an internal law which can't be over-ridden.

This subject tends to be hugely subjective, so I haven't said much, but my biggest payout comes from clipartof.com, and they upload anything you give them. What happens is quite simple: the customer makes a choice to buy or doesn't.

Also people have been so mesmerized by the "best match" theories they have of some of the bigger agencies they've overlooked some simple issues of supply and demand. Believe it or not search engines like flickr and google can actually accurately project which images are "interesting" or not. And there are more than one way to get found on them. Give yourself a few years "going it alone" and you'll be surprised how how you see things looking back.

I fully expect to be throttled for saying this I guess I got a bit of my dad in me. If the sky is blue I still have enough youth in me to admit it in public.

« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 20:55 »
0
One of the areas of concern for me when i consider contributing to smaller agencies or even start my own shop is security and fraud. How secure are these sites and what will happen when content is downloaded with stolen credit card numbers.

If i was a crook looking to make ez money online, image theft and selling for free online is one way to do it and if this symbiostock thing gets big, imagine all the directory of content at my finger tips to exploit.

Sorry if this topic has been covered before but i havent seen anyone talk about these topics which i think is pretty important.

Leo Blanchette

« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2013, 21:05 »
+1
The difference is instead of agency reversing your sale on the item, you would reverse the sale. You can take precautions, but nobody is really safe from hacking or other sorts of fraud. Its just one of those issues in pirate infested waters (internet) you have to deal with.

« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2013, 21:23 »
0
Ok , an example...

What about blurriness  , and I don't mean blurry as an artistic value but a photograph defection type of blurriness.
And buyers are not happy to get technical defected image , and if that tends to happen often...

And I dont see that problem being solved by itself or  by "please don't upload that".

Some people will try to pump the portfolio size with those , and those are not good for the business.



What about 200 different processing of same image , or millions of low quality auto-traces.... you name it...

And people who do that can process way more that average microstocker and fill the engine with their work....

What sort of reputation will that get to the project ?

Would u want a site that gives u full sale %  a strong competitive site or filled with defected work, and we are aware that with prices we cannot compete with agencies.


Im convinced some sort of "whats get in"  has to be set , now or later...

 

 


Leo Blanchette

« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2013, 21:36 »
0
Well I certainly appreciate people care enough to bring it up. I made it a personal decisions not to dictate license or style, or pretty much anything early on. So truly this is left to our budding community to figure out. I hope Symbiostock ends up being a sandbox where people build some pretty darn beautiful castles. All the complicated stuff aside, I'm just a kid playing in my lego pile :D with the added complexity that I have to monetize it.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 21:38 by Leo »

« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2013, 21:56 »
0
....

« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2013, 21:56 »
+2

What about ...


Way too much worries about stuff that might or might not happen. Far too early for me. I need all my worry energy getting my site up and running.  ;)

« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2013, 21:57 »
0
edited: double post

farbled

« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2013, 22:14 »
+1
Im convinced some sort of "whats get in"  has to be set , now or later...

What gets into my website is whatever I choose. If people want to buy, they'll buy. If my stuff sucks, my sales should reflect that. You can choose not to network with me. Again, the choice is in the individual's hands.

Besides, who would make decisions about "what gets in"? It is impossible to police any and every one who downloads this software to sell whatever they wish on their own sites.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2013, 22:20 by farbled »

« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2013, 17:24 »
0
This is the point farbled. We can think us not as all in a big ship, but as many small ship connected ready to help to reach a common goal. Some of these ship are more near (network) others are more distant and maybe want to follow a different route. In future I think what matters is that I'm ready to help near and far ship, because I believe in the symbiostock system, but the route that I follow is my choyce. So if someone in a network put in some images on wich I don't agree I'm free to leave the network. That's all. If the network is poor in content, fail; if not, it means simply that it is following another route. What we need care is the choice of the network member and the right way to promote the sites and the system to reach more ships and fellow (better member of our network).
When symbiostock will be ready, the most important thing will make it known. A network, without traffic fail it doesn't matter if it is good or bad; so first reach the traffic after the buyer and the people  judge which of these networks are good and which are not.

« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 17:41 »
+1
This is the point farbled. We can think us not as all in a big ship, but as many small ship connected ready to help to reach a common goal. Some of these ship are more near (network) others are more distant and maybe want to follow a different route. In future I think what matters is that I'm ready to help near and far ship, because I believe in the symbiostock system, but the route that I follow is my choyce. So if someone in a network put in some images on wich I don't agree I'm free to leave the network. That's all. If the network is poor in content, fail; if not, it means simply that it is following another route. What we need care is the choice of the network member and the right way to promote the sites and the system to reach more ships and fellow (better member of our network).
When symbiostock will be ready, the most important thing will make it known. A network, without traffic fail it doesn't matter if it is good or bad; so first reach the traffic after the buyer and the people  judge which of these networks are good and which are not.

The first point is that if you don't like someone's images that is in your network, you don't have to leave the whole symbiostock network, you just don't network with that one person. I am certain there will be many more that you can choose from, one who's photos you do approve of.

Second, one of the beauties of the network is the SEO advantage. Hopefully, the bigger the network grows, the more traffic we will see and the higher in the searches we will appear.

I think we are saying the same thing...

« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2013, 17:44 »
0


I think we are saying the same thing...
[/quote]
Yes we are saying the same thing... but probably my poor english is difficult to understand.

« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2013, 17:47 »
0


I think we are saying the same thing...
Yes we are saying the same thing... but probably my poor english is difficult to understand.


no worries. You are bilingual, I am not (except for a few dirty phrases in Spanish and the pledge of allegiance in French.) I am no one to criticize.  :)

farbled

« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2013, 18:08 »
0
This is the point farbled. We can think us not as all in a big ship, but as many small ship connected ready to help to reach a common goal. Some of these ship are more near (network) others are more distant and maybe want to follow a different route. In future I think what matters is that I'm ready to help near and far ship, because I believe in the symbiostock system, but the route that I follow is my choyce. So if someone in a network put in some images on wich I don't agree I'm free to leave the network. That's all. If the network is poor in content, fail; if not, it means simply that it is following another route. What we need care is the choice of the network member and the right way to promote the sites and the system to reach more ships and fellow (better member of our network).
When symbiostock will be ready, the most important thing will make it known. A network, without traffic fail it doesn't matter if it is good or bad; so first reach the traffic after the buyer and the people  judge which of these networks are good and which are not.

That's one way to look at it, but I think you're missing that while a complete Symbiostock network (as yet undefined) is one thing, this is open source. Anyone, anywhere can install and network with whomever they wish to and vice versa for any product that can be downloaded. There is literally no way to curate a network unless you create your own and set your own rules. Now, if you're talking about creating a closed network of specific Symbiostock sites that you think would compliment your own, that's fine. It's built to do exactly that among other things.

If you're talking about having a brand specific network of sites using Symbiostock and have some central list or website and curating who can list there, then again I have to ask, who determines what's good and what isn't? It seems to me it kinda defeats the purpose of doing this project, which in my mind is about putting control of our content back into our hands instead of that of an agency.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. But I don't want anyone other than me determining what I put up for sale.


 

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