MicrostockGroup
Microstock Photography Forum - General => Symbiostock => Topic started by: flotsom on February 25, 2014, 10:50
-
Following on from http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=22029.0 (http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=22029.0) I think some urgent clarification is needed as in will critical and security updates be released or is the project completely dead? Best to know now so we can switch to an alternative solution for selling images and not waste our time.
-
Following on from [url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=22029.0[/url] ([url]http://www.microstockgroup.com/index.php?topic=22029.0[/url]) I think some urgent clarification is needed as in will critical and security updates be released or is the project completely dead? Best to know now so we can switch to an alternative solution for selling images and not waste our time.
What critical or secrurity issues are you talking about? I am completely unaware of any?
-
It's far from dead. If you read Leo's post here (http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock-general/what-happened-22029/msg366856/#msg366856) you'll see that he said he'll be back after he recovers from a year of financial breakdown and stress and that he'll correct issues that occur with Wordpress Updates.
He seems to be backing off to attend to personal needs and since the site is stable and sustainable on it's own he's not actively responding to every wish and whim that were becoming overwhelming.
-
Seems it is dead, the developer left the project and it is now an abandoned software, I paid $125 dollars for. The OP was perfectly in his right to express his concerns.
-
Seems it is dead, the developer left the project and it is now an abandoned software, I paid $125 dollars for. The OP was perfectly in his right to express his concerns.
I can see how you would draw that conclusion having not done your homework. But it is not dead, just hybernating. There are still many plans for it, but mostly a change of direction in quality and membership. The main network is still supported as needed.
-
I am going by what the developer posted on his website. Seems clear as water to me.
Its simply not possible to work on this project Anymore.
That was the end of this project for me.
As of Today, June 29, 2014 Symbiostock has finally been put to rest
-
But its also said multiple times I would release my own updates to people and help on a personal level. So I suppose its whatever you want to see.
The main problem with this project is the most troublesome influences usually come from within. If you really want to know the depth of what kept Symbiostock from being what it could have been there is this:
http://www.clipartillustration.com/a-letter-to-the-symbiostockers/ (http://www.clipartillustration.com/a-letter-to-the-symbiostockers/) ..its been posted for quite some time.
The main problem with Symbiostock is that it was far too public, and since it started in MSG we ended up with a few real vipers with a permanent latch onto it. The only hope was to build faster than others tore down.
From here on (as long as I own this project) I'll be running it more like ClipArtof.com and dare I say Stocksy. Clipartof.com is a quiet entity which is quite selective, and Stocksy...well, we can dream?
Symbiostock from here on will have two sides to it: The main network, and the symbiostock.com.
Also its worth noting that I will be selling Symbiostock to whatever person or agency would like it after I've established the main site and leveled things out. Then people will have the best of both worlds: Symbiostock creativity and agency-level ambition and ethics.
-
The software is ready, great, free and works flawlessly and Leo promised me personally he will keep it up with Wordpress updates! Nothing more is needed! If you are not happy with it's functionality it's up to you to choose a different software (good luck to find one even more for free). I'm shocked how ungrateful people can be!
-
The software is ready, great, free and works flawlessly and Leo promised me personally he will keep it up with Wordpress updates! Nothing more is needed! If you are not happy with it's functionality it's up to you to choose a different software (good luck to find one even more for free). I'm shocked how ungrateful people can be!
+1 !
-
Exactly -- I've been running several sites since the beginning of the project and they have never been down for technical problems -- sure, we'd all like enhancements and improvements, but Leo devoted more than a year to this project for a pittance in income and reality set it.
the source is still available for free, and ANYONE who wants to can add to it. the symbiostock network and global searches still work, driving traffic to everyone's sites, which no other commercial site (smugmug, photoshelter, et al) does.
so, those interested in joing the community are welcome - and can get help and advice at http://symbiostock.pix-now.com (http://symbiostock.pix-now.com) where all the forums, tutorials and documentation now live
--
as a side note we have many European sites who are running fine without the VAT addition.
-
My site works fine too, no complaints there. There will be new EU VAT rules effective 1 Jan 2015.
You might want to check up on your business services, before you put your customers in trouble for not abiding to EU legislation.
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/traders/e-commerce/index_en.htm (http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/traders/e-commerce/index_en.htm)
-
My site works fine too, no complaints there. There will be new EU VAT rules effective 1 Jan 2015.
You might want to check up on your business services, before you put your customers in trouble for not abiding to EU legislation.
[url]http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/traders/e-commerce/index_en.htm[/url] ([url]http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/traders/e-commerce/index_en.htm[/url])
sorry for any confusion, I was referring to European artists who run their own sites
-
this project was just too ambitious and unrealistic for a single coder and he had to learn it the hard way.
if we look at similar e-commerce CMS they're all written by an entire team and it took 2-3 yrs to reach the point of a stable release.
yeah there are exceptions like the first PhpNuke or OScommerce but they were a disaster for a loooong time before becoming relatively stable, and they started during the web 1.0 era, nowadays it's all a big mess even if using a solid framework and all, and new versions of WP can pretty much screw it up overnight.
-
written by an entire team and it took 2-3 yrs to reach the point of a stable release.
Well Symbiostock is stable! This just shows what an incredible amount of work Leo put in it's development. He always wanted to develop it in a team but nobody would or most likely could join him because artists can't code in most cases.
-
Personally I'm pretty happy with it. I run it on my own website, I log in to find that my server load is relatively low (running two symbiostock installs plus a bunch of other stuff) ... things are good. Once a year a customer gets pissed off at something that didn't work and I give him a free illustration.
The problem isn't unsteady software, but the fact that open source in general is hard to monetize. All the more so when you have microstock people that sell snapshots for $20 complaining that a $75 product you spent 6 months on is too expensive. I'm not even speaking ignorantly - I have some illustrations I spent less than an hour on that have made more money over their lifetime than a photo-selling suite that runs on 180 (known) sites. I mean, lets put things into perspective! Personally I find coding to be a far more valuable skill than illustration, but wow...I must be missing something. I can charge $2000 on a 3d model that takes a week to create if things go well. But I can't charge a comparable amount on creating a plugin which is definitely more complex. One notable person who needed me to make a plugin responded with "Well, my guys in India could do it for less..."
People on MSG have the luxury of opinion because many times they don't see the other side. The ones that do generally come across much differently, and they are known. I used to take great offense to Lobo's arrogance on Istock, but then I realized he was probably the greatest asset in dealing with some of the degenerative characters latched onto that community. So yes, I have learned some lessons!
If you want a fun read, check this out: http://wordpress.org/support/topic/plugin-strictly-google-sitemap-strictly-sitemap-and-custom-post-types (http://wordpress.org/support/topic/plugin-strictly-google-sitemap-strictly-sitemap-and-custom-post-types) ...it echoes what man open sourcerers complain about :D
-
Sorry for the long post. I just watched the new Ninja turtles with the fam (totally awesome awesome movie) so I'm having a temporary UP I figured I'd run with. Don't worry, I'll delete my account again soon :-X or I could just create another screen name.
-
"Well, my guys in India could do it for less..."
Leo, i understand you.
For very similar reasons i've quit doing coding, and if we talk about CMS and especially about open source CMS the only ones making decent money are the guys selling templates while the coders are starving or keeping it as a side hobby.
Even WP is not making money from coding but just from selling upsells, domain names, upgrades, tech support.
It's such a tragedy and if that matters i've friends giving away their music for almost free and monetizing a bit selling merchandising and doing some gigs ... but gigs pay peanuts to artists so they're scre-wed anyway.
The ultimate problem is since everybody has a computer nowadays they think they can do it themselves and they think it's not rocket science and therefore it must be priced cheap or even being free.
And even if it's free they will endlessly complain and complain again, so much that they complain about their waster time and therefore their wasted money, as if free software was the same as commercial software.
This * Free culture is really the root of all evils in my opinion and i would be more than happy living without linux, lamp, android, and the whole cr-ap, give me IIS, Visual Studio, ASP.net, WinMobile, IOS, no problem, but nooo ... people want free or nothing and they want the sourced code too, all served on a golden platter, then they will rant about the lack of documentation and multi language, and the list is endless.
-
in other words, photography has never been as popular as today, and so is music, software, video, videogames, and so many creative applications and artworks.
and YET it's never been so hard to make money out of it like today.
there was a time people would pay 50-100$ per hour to code HTML 1.0 ... now they refuse to use your app even if it's free.
what's next, will they pretend to get paid as beta testers since there might be a few bugs in the code and so they will suffer from downtime and maintenance ?
and i've never seen such a pile of sh-it apps before the advent of Android and the Play Store ... not that i could care less but it gives us a rough idea of the dreadful situation and it's going to get worse for developers as far as i see it.
-
LOL Hobostocker. I think we could summarize all the volumes of Symbiostock aggravation into your three posts. Good job.
-
I wont comment now, because I said it all already long time ago.
Only one thing: Leo, do not blame yourself, you were carried away like any dedicated young man should be, and you learned a valuable lesson: you can not build a skyscraper in a swamp, but you need to dig the foundation deep into the bedrock.
-
...you can not build a skyscraper in a swamp, but you need to dig the foundation deep into the bedrock.
Very good comment...
-
This * Free culture is really the root of all evils in my opinion and i would be more than happy living without linux, lamp, android, and the whole cr-ap, give me IIS, Visual Studio, ASP.net, WinMobile, IOS, no problem, but nooo ... people want free or nothing and they want the sourced code too, all served on a golden platter, then they will rant about the lack of documentation and multi language, and the list is endless.
I'd say nearly free is probably more dangerous. I'm always amazed when someone scoffs at paying $20 for an illustration. I always think to myself what do you think it should cost? Or how much do you think my time should be worth and how much is your time worth?
-
hi Leo,
i have never spoken 2 u before, but i have followed ur progress here on Tyler's forum .
it's a shame ur dream got hijacked by the internal problems. it is as they say,
no matter what, someone will come in to screw it up; even if it benefits other contributors,etc..
anyway, end of the story being, i know u will be rewarded for all u ventured.
as Hobo points out , we r in the "age of entitlement" where freebies is not considered a privilege but an expectation. musicians paid pennies? well, we won't go into that , safe that, as a teenager
we were paid 300 bucks for a gig at pub-night 2 nights a week = 100 bucks per person as a power-trio.
last time i spoke to today's musicians , they told me they get paid for a case of beer.
one bottle per person for a 6 piece band. 2 for my power-trio if we were young today.
same for the writers of freeware or shareware. lots of criticisms , all for giving away their
work. why?
and we thought ms was bad ;D
no time for crying over spilt milk, as Goofy says.
it's the reality today. so, go where there is no saturation, and live well and prosper .
Spock :D :D :D :D
-
Not sure why people think people want stuff for free. Speaking for myself only, I have bought several plugins, paid for the premium version, and donated to the project. I also offered to pay for the VAT plugin. I offered to pay for a mobile version. I offered to pay for a working licencing system.
I have paid for plugins that were later given away for free. . At some point someone needed something on their site, and I pointed them to the paid plugin that would do the trick. But the developer offered to inject the code for free instead. Great business sense
Sorry, but thats not my problem. If you want to make money, but charging one person and giving it away to the next is questionable.
As I have said before, I paid as much for LR as I did for Symbiostock. Adobe gives me live time free updates. So I will not pay for symbiostock updates. If that makes me a free loader, then so be it.
I see the project is dead, but the cult is still very much alive. ;D
-
Adobe gives me live time free updates.
That must be a different Adobe I paid for all my updates otherwise I would still work with Photoshop 2.5 (yes the one without CS) the last update (CS6) did cost me 600,- Euros not exactly free..., same with LR (but granted cheaper)
-
double post
-
....... This * Free culture is really the root of all evils in my opinion and i would be more than happy living without linux, lamp, android, and the whole cr-ap, give me IIS, Visual Studio, ASP.net, WinMobile, IOS, no problem, but nooo ... people want free or nothing and they want the sourced code too, all served on a golden platter, then they will rant about the lack of documentation and multi language, and the list is endless.
I started in shareware in the mid 80s in the days of BBS systems, and there was always a divide over whether and how much to limit the demo version -- some programs lent themselves to it (serialized fps & rpgs like duke nukem, et al), while others meant that the program really would be crippled (editors, etc). relying on the 'honesty' of users to pay for it if they liked it was rarely a successful strategy
the 'free' software movement is slightly different in that most of the successful products were created by people with another source of funding (universities & other grants, tech companies that could then sell extra services, etc) applying these same expectations to the arts hurt because few artists have any type of support other than their work.
-
....... This * Free culture is really the root of all evils in my opinion and i would be more than happy living without linux, lamp, android, and the whole cr-ap, give me IIS, Visual Studio, ASP.net, WinMobile, IOS, no problem, but nooo ... people want free or nothing and they want the sourced code too, all served on a golden platter, then they will rant about the lack of documentation and multi language, and the list is endless.
I started in shareware in the mid 80s in the days of BBS systems, and there was always a divide over whether and how much to limit the demo version -- some programs lent themselves to it (serialized fps & rpgs like duke nukem, et al), while others meant that the program really would be crippled (editors, etc). relying on the 'honesty' of users to pay for it if they liked it was rarely a successful strategy
the 'free' software movement is slightly different in that most of the successful products were created by people with another source of funding (universities & other grants, tech companies that could then sell extra services, etc) applying these same expectations to the arts hurt because few artists have any type of support other than their work.
I do find it ironic that the same people who lose their mind at the thought of giving away their photos often are the same people who expect free software to power their business.
-
I wont comment now, because I said it all already long time ago.
Only one thing: Leo, do not blame yourself, you were carried away like any dedicated young man should be, and you learned a valuable lesson: you can not build a skyscraper in a swamp, but you need to dig the foundation deep into the bedrock.
I remember the things you said - although they weren't flattering they were valuable and I'm privileged you spoke up. I've recalled most of it in the last few months. Thanks for the kind words though at the end of the road - your the real deal.
hi Leo,
i have never spoken 2 u before, but i have followed ur progress here on Tyler's forum .
Hi there! I think in the long run we'll all benefit. Most of us have a hard working spirit and thats really what pays off in the end.
I see the project is dead, but the cult is still very much alive. ;D
We just haven't mixed the coolaid yet!
If I had known this was Ron...! Whats the saying "it all comes out in the wash". I can say that you had received the majority of my free dedicated attention behind the scenes, so its not all bad. Thanks for your positive help and I understand you frustrations as well. Hopefully in the end your website is an asset for you.
the 'free' software movement is slightly different in that most of the successful products were created by people with another source of funding (universities & other grants, tech companies that could then sell extra services, etc) applying these same expectations to the arts hurt because few artists have any type of support other than their work.
I love your insights as always. Looking back (as they say hindsite is 20-20) mixing microstock with open source is hardly a complete recipe for success. You were right in starting to host people at a modest rate. Making money on selling upgrades to open source product is completely based on expanse, which is hard to achieve in our current setting. You've been a real asset with your understanding and help.
The software is ready, great, free and works flawlessly...
I can't say how much I appreciate the encouragement you and like-minded people have given at hard times. Although I don't always respond, my wife and I really treasure helpful and positive people like you.
-
Things are heating up here.
-
the 'free' software movement is slightly different in that most of the successful products were created by people with another source of funding (universities & other grants, tech companies that could then sell extra services, etc) applying these same expectations to the arts hurt because few artists have any type of support other than their work.
i believe the golden days of open source are finally over.
there's too much money to be made on mobile apps and coders have definitely noticed the trend and are no more willing to give freebies away like in the past.
problem is, because of oversaturation it's very very hard to monetize mobile apps, no matter if paid or free or freemium with ads.
the volumes are huge but so is the number of apps and for android the situation is the worst.
-
I do find it ironic that the same people who lose their mind at the thought of giving away their photos often are the same people who expect free software to power their business.
freeware is one thing, open source is another thing.
even microsoft and adobe gave out many products for free, freeware has always been part of the ecosystem.
but open source is quite another story.
there's nothing wrong using free versions of PS Elements or trial/demo versions of Lightroom.
by opposite using open source photo apps you know from the start these apps can be unstable, can be buggy, can be abandoned overnight, you don't know what their roadmap will be, especially if the developers cannot make decent money with it.
so, we've many choices nowadays but if sh-it happens we can only blame ourselves.
besides this reasoning has no ground in photography as PS is a de facto monopoly and nobody is going back using The Gimp or Corel Draw just for the sake of using free software or cheap software alternatives.
too many developers think the real cost in on developing applications.
no, it's on maintaining and upgrading and supporting the applications, so many things can go wrong with different versions of the OS or the CMS or the server, it's a hell .. you will spend more time debugging and fixing small issues than writing from scratch the whole app !
and finally it's always all about the money.
why nobody is making Gimp a superior product on par with PS ?
because the money isn't there, there's no demand, there are no coders willing to waste months or years for a failed product.
developers are the life blood of open source, if they bail out it's game over, it becomes abandonware, academic projects.
-
LOL Hobostocker. I think we could summarize all the volumes of Symbiostock aggravation into your three posts. Good job.
well, if i go back to coding it will be only for C# paid desktop apps, the more i hear people talking about mobile and cloud the more i'm convinced desktop (windows/OSX) is here to stay for professional users, we'll see .. :)
-
as a teenager
we were paid 300 bucks for a gig at pub-night 2 nights a week = 100 bucks per person as a power-trio.
last time i spoke to today's musicians , they told me they get paid for a case of beer.
one bottle per person for a 6 piece band. 2 for my power-trio if we were young today.
yes and yes !
and if they're lucky they'll get a burger with fries or a slice of pizza.
but you know what, they deserve it because teenage live bands are dime a dozen nowadays so it's just a matter of supply and demand, they can't blame the greedy bar owners ... if they don't like a case of beer and a slice of cold pizza they will be replaced by a drunk teenage DJ pressing play on Ableton or Traktor and case closed ... the music business has really reached the rock bottom and frankly speaking i'm laughing about the dreadful situation i see around, we all knew that Digital would have killed the music industry and now we reached the end of the road.
-
I'd say nearly free is probably more dangerous. I'm always amazed when someone scoffs at paying $20 for an illustration. I always think to myself what do you think it should cost? Or how much do you think my time should be worth and how much is your time worth?
customers just seek the best deals, they don't care about our production costs or the sustainability of our biz.
as a money conscious buyer i always seek the cheapest and best price/quality ratio too, i wouldn't be a good buyer if i didn't.
so, yes, people selling too cheap are ultimately shooting themselves in the foot as far as i'm concerned but it must be said i probably belong to a small minority of buyers, in pretty much any industry i noticed that price is not THE single ultimate winning factor.
-
Well i don't know about you guys..
But I am happy with my site, a lot of work has gone into it and I am still uploading content everyday and promoting it with my clients. It is not consistent on sales but once in a while i get happily surprised by the extra income that helps me a lot! :)
Anyway thx to Leo and the rest of the team that helped us get our own sites... if not for them i would have never been able to build it on my own.
Leo If I ever meet you Ill invite you a beer!
-
I have been out of the loop on all of the crazy SymbioDrama since last fall. I took a new job that took most of my time over the winter and I just didn't have the time to keep up.
I have still been uploading my work here and there and continue to get regular sales.
I can't thank Leo enough for developing SymbioStock. I hope the development continues.
-
I'm another one who's proud of my site and happy to have had the opportunity to build it. Also very appreciative of Leo's efforts and the support of the entire SYS community.
-
I am not sure how this discussion is about free loaders and not being with happy with the site
I like my site, its working fine, sold an EL just last week
I never asked or expected anything to be free, the only thing that needs to be free is updates. I refuse to pay a monthly description to get updates. So did many others, and the project was cancelled, the forum was closed, and all 155 users were left in the dark.
I paid more than most people I think.
You sent a payment of $7.50 USD to Jester Arts Illustration
You sent a payment of $30.00 USD to Symbiostock
You sent a payment of $15.00 USD to Symbiostock
You sent a payment of $75.00 USD to Symbiostock
This email confirms that you have donated $25.00 USD to Symbiostock
This is the last thing I will say about this. I am upset the plug got pulled, and I wont let the cult gag me. Never have, you should know that by now. No criticism is allowed, not even when it is valid criticism backed up with facts.
The FACT that TWO blog postings have been posted lashing out to the members of Symbiostock speak volumes.
I am happy with my site, and I am still grateful that Leo made that happen. No doubt about that.
-
Leo has confirmed that he is still working on the VAT plugin. He has also committed to keeping the existing sites functional for upcoming WP updates. I am certain that this will happen because I have very much to lose if my sites go down so I will personally make sure that they continue to work. Leo has built a number of custom plugins for my site (which I paid for) and he has not completely disappeared. Also his site is built on this platform and I know for certain that he gets enough sales that he will not abandon them completely.
Everyone with a current site can relax about the future of your sites. They will continue to work at least the way they do now. Honestly every time I login to one of my symbio-sites I am amazed at what they are capable of.
They read IPTC, have hover previews, get great SEO and work with many, many plugins.
My symbio sites have features that my custom built site doesn't because I couldn't afford the coding on my custom site. The upload is better and so is the customization. This theme is actually remarkable when you consider how it was built and how long it took.
Ron, you can relax about the VAT, it's coming… I don't know when but I do know that as burnt out as Leo is he still feels an obligation to the 170+ site owners. He just wanted to try and make a living off of this and it appears like that may never happen which has been very frustrating. Many of the people who he mentioned in his blog posts weren't even site owners or were people who gave up on their sites before they had the chance to mature or bring in sales. There was no single person or people that caused his dismay but rather an overall apathy or feeling which caused this project to stall.
This project isn't dead… its just not growing. That is OK because my sites are successful and I don't really want them to change all that much. I realize not everyone feels the same as I do about Symbiostock which is fine because there are other self hosting options which people may also want to explore. Find what works for you but don't give up on self hosting because that is one of the few areas that we as contributors can still control.
-
This project isn't dead… its just not growing. That is OK because my sites are successful and I don't really want them to change all that much. I realize not everyone feels the same as I do about Symbiostock which is fine because there are other self hosting options which people may also want to explore. Find what works for you but don't give up on self hosting because that is one of the few areas that we as contributors can still control.
Nicely put. I never really got into the whole group networking side of this project, but the actual site software is awesome. For something that cost me nothing but time, it's miles above all the other shopping cart systems I've tried over the years (that also didn't cost anything).
*edit, if liking the software means I'm in a cult, someone forgot to send me a t-shirt!
-
There was no single person or people that caused his dismay but rather an overall apathy or feeling which caused this project to stall.
That's not really true...he's singled out and quoted a few specific people he took issue with (me included). Also, Leo has been saying for well over a year that he was done with Symbiostock and was leaving it up to others to take over, which never really happened. So there were a variety of reasons the project stalled.
http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock/open-source-what-it-means-for-symbiostock/ (http://www.microstockgroup.com/symbiostock/open-source-what-it-means-for-symbiostock/)
-
Does the phrase "beat a dead horse" mean anything?
-
Does the phrase "beat a dead horse" mean anything?
Oh, the irony...
-
Does the phrase "beat a dead horse" mean anything?
Oh, the irony...
:D Here come the minuses! She has called in the cult troop!
-
it is very far from dead for me..
but I won't bother writing a long post because I am done trying to convert nonbelievers..
-
:D Here come the minuses! She has called in the cult troop!
Cathy, maybe it's time to realize that you were a big part of the problem. End of story.
-
:D Here come the minuses! She has called in the cult troop!
Cathy, maybe it's time to realize that you were a big part of the problem. End of story.
Not end of story.
Really? So a developer of software that is of benefit to hundreds of people, and is making money for himself and hundreds of people, decides to quit, and you are blaming that on me? You are too much. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Which proves my point even more that the concept of SY clearly doesn't work. If all of you SYers were making all kinds of money from sales and the networking, and Leo was making all kinds of sales (even though he is reaping the benefit anyway, along with a few others, of the massive google juice), why would anything that I said (you know, me being a stupid, loudmouth woman who doesn't know what she is talking about) discourage that? You must not be a very good business person if you think one person's opinion would deter a project that was successful and making money. You need to dump that glass of koolaid and take a closer look at the facts.
But I hope it made you feel better to put the blame on me, rather than where it should be. ;)
Beat...dead horse...as long as you guys keep beating, so will I, shelma1. :)
-
:D Here come the minuses! She has called in the cult troop!
Cathy, maybe it's time to realize that you were a big part of the problem. End of story.
Why was cathy a big part of the problem?
and btw.. Which problem?
-
:D Here come the minuses! She has called in the cult troop!
Cathy, maybe it's time to realize that you were a big part of the problem. End of story.
Why was cathy a big part of the problem?
and btw.. Which problem?
It's easier to blame me than to face facts and take personal responsibility. But those are good questions. I would like to know exactly what I have to do with a developer constantly deciding he wants to abandon a project, especially if said project is successful (even BEFORE I decided that the networking part of the software doesn't work). I can believe that it took a lot of time away from family. I can believe it didn't make enough money. I can believe that things change so much in the website building area that it is a hassle to try to keep up with the code changes. I can believe that the software didn't produce the intended results for every member of the network. I can see lots of reasons for a developer giving up, but my big mouth certainly isn't one of them. ::)
Rather than have an intelligent discussion here on why I am now being blamed for the demise of SY, it's much easier to take a bullying mentality and come here in full force and mark my posts with minuses.
If the networking works, and all of those involved are happy with their sites, then what difference does it make what my opinion is? I am certain that the people who read this forum arent always a bunch of sheep who just blindly follow what someone says. I am pretty sure they are like me...they use the power of the internet to read all opinions and then decide. So if things arent going the way some expected with SY, perhaps it's because the research showed it wasn't a good choice?
-
Cathy, maybe it's time to realize that you were a big part of the problem. End of story.
That's very unfair. The arguments which resulted were an inevitable outcome of the project and its goals being poorly specified and planned. If it had not been one person, it would have been another.
The problems with Symbiostock were many. One of the main issues was that economically it was not viable. Therefore it was always going to fail. Viable open source projects need a sustainable (typically much larger) user base in order, amongst other things, to attract enough developers. Free generally only works if there is money to be made.
Also - it was wrongheaded of people to believe that the solution they were looking for was software. Good well designed software would have been one of the outcomes of a project which had been well specified and project planned. And properly funded. Software is not an end in itself.
The end result, unfortunately, has been some not very good software and a bunch of poor looking sites mostly offering content which is never going to sell because it needs editing. The few sites which are doing okay would have likely done as well or better on another platform. Even any possible SEO advantage seems likely to diminish quickly now that Google is moving towards promoting only fully https websites.
-
The end result, unfortunately, has been some not very good software and a bunch of poor looking sites mostly offering content which is never going to sell because it needs editing. The few sites which are doing okay would have likely done as well or better on another platform. Even any possible SEO advantage seems likely to diminish quickly now that Google is moving towards promoting only fully https websites.
I think that's unfair. The software works exactly as specified with only a few exceptions. It's self-hosting. I think the bigger issue (and where all the contention started) was the networking side of things. The actual platform is incredible compared to others I've tried (and I have tried quite a few). As far as poor content, etc, well that would be up to the site owners wouldn't it? Trying to control what people choose to sell would entirely defeat the point of self hosting.
-
I think that's unfair. The software works exactly as specified with only a few exceptions. It's self-hosting. I think the bigger issue (and where all the contention started) was the networking side of things. The actual platform is incredible compared to others I've tried (and I have tried quite a few).
I don't think it should be about whether it is incredible compared with other software. It should be about whether it is the right solution for photographers. It isn't.
Firstly - it doesn't look good. That's one of the reason why none of the sites look good. Which means that people are never going to be able to use it to build the great looking sites which potential customers expect. For that you need sites which are built using the latest technologies. Look at how good other websites look today. Customers expect great looking sites.
And then there is the question of whether photographers being their own systems administrators is the right solution for photographers. In most cases no it isn't. So it's the wrong solution - it does not offer a good alternative to agencies.
As far as poor content, etc, well that would be up to the site owners wouldn't it? Trying to control what people choose to sell would entirely defeat the point of self hosting.
^ This goes to the question of whether there is even any point in running single photographer sites. I do not believe that there is - for most people. Customers typically want the variety and quality that only a library can offer. In which case what is the point of building a site which is rarely if ever going to get a sale. It would be much better to get a hosted portfolio on a better platform if it is simply about building a vanity site. Or use flickr. If you are building a network then there needs to be quality control.
You start with an idea. You put a team together to sketch out what the thing might look like. You argue out the detail and think about the possible legal and conceptual aspects. You make sketches of how you want it to look and begin to talk about what might be the best technologies and platforms. You put together a business plan including projections of how much it is going to cost. You get people with experience to advise you about the business plan - whether it is viable etc. Then if you decide to go ahead you raise some money to take the project forward and employ people to build the software, design the site and draw up the legal contracts etc.
^ if not something like this then it is not serious.
-
Firstly - it doesn't look good. That's one of the reason why none of the sites look good.
Gee, thanks.
-
Firstly - it doesn't look good. That's one of the reason why none of the sites look good.
Gee, thanks.
Yes, thanks, too ;)
-
I think that's unfair. The software works exactly as specified with only a few exceptions. It's self-hosting. I think the bigger issue (and where all the contention started) was the networking side of things. The actual platform is incredible compared to others I've tried (and I have tried quite a few).
I don't think it should be about whether it is incredible compared with other software. It should be about whether it is the right solution for photographers. It isn't.
Firstly - it doesn't look good. That's one of the reason why none of the sites look good. Which means that people are never going to be able to use it to build the great looking sites which potential customers expect. For that you need sites which are built using the latest technologies. Look at how good other websites look today. Customers expect great looking sites.
And then there is the question of whether photographers being their own systems administrators is the right solution for photographers. In most cases no it isn't. So it's the wrong solution - it does not offer a good alternative to agencies.
As far as poor content, etc, well that would be up to the site owners wouldn't it? Trying to control what people choose to sell would entirely defeat the point of self hosting.
^ This goes to the question of whether there is even any point in running single photographer sites. I do not believe that there is - for most people. Customers typically want the variety and quality that only a library can offer. In which case what is the point of building a site which is rarely if ever going to get a sale. It would be much better to get a hosted portfolio on a better platform if it is simply about building a vanity site. Or use flickr. If you are building a network then there needs to be quality control.
You start with an idea. You put a team together to sketch out what the thing might look like. You argue out the detail and think about the possible legal and conceptual aspects. You make sketches of how you want it to look and begin to talk about what might be the best technologies and platforms. You put together a business plan including projections of how much it is going to cost. You get people with experience to advise you about the business plan - whether it is viable etc. Then if you decide to go ahead you raise some money to take the project forward and employ people to build the software, design the site and draw up the legal contracts etc.
^ if not something like this then it is not serious.
you are delusional..
I don't even understand why you have written such a long and far from useful post in the first place..
if you have got something better to offer, please come back again.. if not, what is all that fuss about?
You hate it?
COOL.. DO NOT USE IT
-
Firstly - it doesn't look good. That's one of the reason why none of the sites look good.
Gee, thanks.
The easy way of getting lots of hearts is to say things which people want to hear. But what would be the point of that ?
This project did not fail because Cathy upset some people. That's where I came into this particular conversation. If it was viable then it would have taken more than an argument to kill it. It failed because it was not built around solid planning and a clear specification. And the business planning was not good.
-
Well, you don't seem interested in self-hosting, so there's not much further point in debate about it. You seem to be describing an agency-type site. So you're kinda in the wrong thread in my opinion. I have many reasons for self hosting besides sales.
-
So you're kinda in the wrong thread in my opinion.
Since this thread is about Symbiostock being dead it seems perfectly reasonable IMO to discuss what went wrong. People not wanting to talk about what was going wrong with Symbiostock was part of what went wrong with Symbiostock.
-
Well technically, the concept was built around the idea of a collaboration of artists and developers all working together to create something. The idea was that hundreds or even thousands of people would participate and eventually something great would come from it. The momentum for this project needed to come from the community and MSG was supposed to be a great source for this community to be built. Ultimately things went south with this plan (which was probably doomed to fail) because there are a lot more talkers than do'ers. Leo is a do'er and assumed (incorrectly) that there were many, many, more like him. There aren't. Once this became a one man show it was easy for negativity to dramatically affect the outcome. There were actually a number of coders at the beginning but they lost interest due to these same reasons long before Leo did.
If the people who didn't like the project had just gone about their way and quietly done something else this might have had a very different outcome. Instead there was a very vocal and loud outcry against the project. This is the part I don't understand. I'm not a big fan of McDonalds hamburgers but instead of screaming at the top of my lungs in front of the restaurant, I just don't eat there. Why all the outrage? What was the point?Why not just not participate and do something else?
Lots of people are saying the project is so bad, but why do they care at all?
-
I waited 14 months to finally make a sale through Symbiostock, and when I finally did get one, the image didn't download properly for the buyer. He spent 24 hours going nuts trying to figure out how to download the image, and the Symbiostock system kept asking him to change his password.
In the meantime, something failed between Bluehost and my mobile phone service provider, so I never received email notification that a purchase had been made. Yet another issue that never seems to work reliably. So I did not receive any of the angry buyer's rants over the next day. Long story short, I ended up refunding all of the buyer's money since a day later he had already flagged the purchase through Paypal and made it seem as though I was unscrupulous.
You can find posts from photographers who were disillusioned by the buggy payment process, if you search for them. For most photographers, it worked like a charm.
I supported the project for a long time, but I really don't have the patience to keep up with the issues. The reward-to-effort has never been there for me, in my own personal experience. So while the project isn't dead as far as I can ascertain, I wouldn't buy into the typical "it's so easy to set up" advice, because you don't know how many problems are under the hood until you really press the accelerator. And once a problem arises, do you have the programming ability to fix it? This is not a plug-and-play device. You might have the chops to set it up, but it takes real skill to fix inevitable issues.
You might not like the other options out there like Photoshelter, but those options seem to be fairly stable and you don't have to worry about troubleshooting shopping carts.
-
Lots of people are saying the project is so bad, but why do they care at all?
they are afraid we will be successful and they will be doomed forever.. :D
-
If the people who didn't like the project had just gone about their way and quietly done something else this might have had a very different outcome.
This seems unlikely.
Instead there was a very vocal and loud outcry against the project.
I never witnessed that either here or on the Symbiostock forum. But I did read posts from people defending Symbiostock aggressively - as if raising issues was somehow against the project. There seemed to be a head-in-the-sand approach to many of the issues which should have been obvious. That persists apparently.
Lots of people are saying the project is so bad, but why do they care at all?
By talking about why projects fail people are able to work how not to repeat those mistakes ?
-
The fact that all the posts with criticism are voted down is very much what is wrong and exactly what Bunhill touched on as well.
My comment with facts, my own feelings, and some positive notes gets voted down
Cathy's comment with some good points, voted down
Bunhill's comment with constructive comments and arguments voted down
No one accepts any criticism. I wasnt the first to join the project, but I joined around version 1.4 I believe, and I have been a MAJOR supporter of Symbiostock, and I put money, time and support into the project. But when I started to criticise things, FOR THE BETTER, people started to work against me.
... I am done trying to convert nonbelievers..
What is to believe when the developer himself says, without running around the bush, the project is done and he is pulling out?
It is on the developer website for everyone to read. But then someone else comes out, speaking for the developer, saying it is not true.
Why are the two people running this project contradicting each other.
Which one is it, is it dead or is it not dead? If it is not dead, why are the two blog posts up saying it is?
Why is the forum being closed, reinstated, being closed, reinstated, and now read only? At least on three occasions I was told that the project had to come to an end.
The project had a following, and that following got 'punished' because they didnt want to pay a subscription. 177 people and growing, 13 people voted, 9 said they didnt want a subscription, and the project got cancelled. Simple as.
I paid for plugins that later were given away for free, thats not the way forward to make money, if that is your plan.
I think the people who are desperately defending symbiostock are the ones that need to get their head out of the sand.
If I had paid nothing for this software you wouldnt have heard one word of criticism from me, but I paid 155 dollar. That entitles me to have criticism. Period.
-
Just to be clear... and if I am inferring something that wasn't intended forgive me. I am not and never have been a part of the Symbiostock development team. I have never received a dime from the development of this software (other than selling my own images). In fact I am certain that I have paid more for my sites than any other single person involved in Symbiostock. My interest in the well being of the project is purely selfish in the fact that my sites make sales... lots of them, and it was in my own best interest for the project to continue. I did not know Leo until he sent me a PM around last November. Since then we have shared many conversations and we have become friends. Leo tends to be impulsive and doesn't handle this forum environment very well. Very often I have come to MSG as his spokesperson and even more often I have come here for my own interests. FWIW I know exactly what went wrong with this project and so does Leo. The issue here is that very little of what is said here is accurate. Most of it is taken out of context or distorted with important items being omitted. Everything is probably true from a particular perspective but not exactly true when taken in the larger context.
Leo spent 2 years basically working for free. From which many of us have profited at his expense and when he decided he could no longer do it he is criticized for stopping. When he decided to close shop he didn't wipe out all of our sites. They still run. He doesn't owe me or anyone else anything. If you think you didn't get your money's worth then I am happy to have that discussion because I think this software in its current form is worth more than $150. But if you think that continued development for an unsustainable business model is mandated then I have to disagree with you.
My stance has never changed. Subs are bad, self hosting is good! I jumped on board and defended Symbiostock because it was the best idea to come along in years. If anyone else would like to step up and create something out of the box that I think will work I will actively support your project as well.
Symbiostock IS dead!!!!
Symbio sites are far from it.
-
I continue to be vocal about the issues with the software because i believe people have the right to know all sides of a story. And i am even more vocal when bullies show up and start blaming me and telling me i dont have any right to my opinion and adding minuses to my posts just because they "don't like me." You better believe I am NOT going to let it drop and go on my merry way.
Both Ron and bunhill have made excellent points. And look at the mentality that puts bunhill down just because he doesnt have an SY site. This blind, worshipping following of Leo just baffles me. As a person, I am sure he is a good guy. Did he do a good thing writing this software? Yeah. But it's like that saying "The operation was a success but the patient died." Can you build a site with it? Yeah. Is it successful? Not so much.
It was LEOs choice to not charge, so don't be putting that blame on anybody, including me. From the start, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why he didn't put it up on Themeforest or something.
-
And just to clarify for anyone, I DID pay Leo for the software, I DID pay for plugins. So don't be telling ME that I got something for nothing. I know the value of developer's time and I didn't mind paying. And I don't believe I have EVER said anything different.
-
And look at the mentality that puts bunhill down just because he doesnt have an SY site.
I built a dummy site using Symbiostock on a LAMP server at home to look at the software.
-
And look at the mentality that puts bunhill down just because he doesnt have an SY site.
I built a dummy site using Symbiostock on a LAMP server at home to look at the software.
Which points directly back to the statement I made about how people aren't sheep. Maybe people aren't jumping on the SY wagon because ITS NOT THE RIGHT CHOICE.
OK, I got work to do. Enough of this madness.
-
I continue to be vocal about the issues with the software because i believe people have the right to know all sides of a story. And i am even more vocal when bullies show up and start blaming me and telling me i dont have any right to my opinion and adding minuses to my posts just because they "don't like me." You better believe I am NOT going to let it drop and go on my merry way.
Both Ron and bunhill have made excellent points. And look at the mentality that puts bunhill down just because he doesnt have an SY site. This blind, worshipping following of Leo just baffles me. As a person, I am sure he is a good guy. Did he do a good thing writing this software? Yeah. But it's like that saying "The operation was a success but the patient died." Can you build a site with it? Yeah. Is it successful? Not so much.
It was LEOs choice to not charge, so don't be putting that blame on anybody, including me. From the start, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why he didn't put it up on Themeforest or something.
There is no blind worshipping of Leo except in your own mind.
-
never been with leo, or symbio; so not a "worshipper nor an anti-cult"
but allow me 2 add my tuppence worth ... without pointing at anyone here.
i like the idea of hosting ur own site , from the start i read of leo,
but now even more, given the current situation with is and ss. only i don't have time for now 2 immerse myself globally, as i have more or less turn back 2 local work.
i realise some did not find it worth it, due 2 no sales . but the no sales has nothing 2 do with leo's making. it is ur own portfolio, if some others r selling in the same "connection" (4 lack of a better word, as i m told not 2 use "co-op" when describing symbio.)
anyway, like the co-op stocksy, it rises n falls with the network. symbio is only as strong as its weakest link. i like the idea, as it is one step in the current sorry state of ms to find a viable alternative.
as 2 whether it be fair 2 pay leo or not, why not then give him a percentage? since we give ss , is, etc a large %age n we have absolutely no control of where we r in the search placement, or when they decide 2 switch-off our portfolio when we reach a certain pay-out point.
(not my idea of conspiracy, but just quoting some long-timers from the forum itself ie"port falls off a cliff").
-
Maybe this would be a good time to redirect the conversation to "What's Next?" Who has an idea like Symbiostock and would like to take a jump and get it going? I would love to see another venue for myself to try that doesn't involve selling my images for pennies. I don't need another subs agency and I am not hearing a lot of great new options out there. In particular any illustrators (because I am an illustrator) out there who are interesting in doing something new? I'm happy to also "worship" someone new as well.
Seriously... I'm hearing a lot of criticism but not very many ideas. Someone share some ideas with your thoughts, I'll help.
Not real interested in comments about how it won't work. I've already read endless posts about all of those arguments. I've got them memorized. If I have respect for Leo it was because he said "It's possible" and then tried to do it. Who's next?
-
Seriously... I'm hearing a lot of criticism but not very many ideas. Someone share some ideas with your thoughts, I'll help.
Start with a vision of what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a better self hosted site for your own content in isolation or are are you looking to build a marketplace ?
-
i realise some did not find it worth it, due 2 no sales . but the no sales has nothing 2 do with leo's making. it is ur own portfolio, if some others r selling in the same "connection" (4 lack of a better word, as i m told not 2 use "co-op" when describing symbio.)
I dont think it's the the main problem, not for me anyways. The main problem is it does not work properly, for me and some others as i can see here. The issues with Paypal was on and off for me and i dont have an idea what caused it and can never be sure if it would work the next time. It apparently works well for many people, so it should be due to the fact that i dont have enough technical knowledge to solve the problems.
But i liked the network idea, and so thought i could use it to drive traffic to my main Photodeck site. Well, after almost a year i must say the network feature does not work for me either. I had 4 websites at that time and my Symbio site had the best Alexa ranking, largest number of linking, and the only one that had 100% indexed, and yet, it has the lowest number of visits, even until now. It did not bring any traffic to me, the only thing i got from my Symbio site is spam registration, lots of it. So as much as it saddens me, i will have to take it down soon.
-
Seriously... I'm hearing a lot of criticism but not very many ideas. Someone share some ideas with your thoughts, I'll help.
Start with a vision of what it is that you want to achieve. Are you looking for a better self hosted site for your own content in isolation or are are you looking to build a marketplace ?
Thanks but I'm not looking for advice. I'm looking for people who are interested in doing something. I know what I want and how to get there. Just wondering if anyone else out there was actually interested in the same thing. Is that you or are you just intent on consulting?
-
And look at the mentality that puts bunhill down just because he doesnt have an SY site.
I built a dummy site using Symbiostock on a LAMP server at home to look at the software.
Which points directly back to the statement I made about how people aren't sheep. Maybe people aren't jumping on the SY wagon because ITS NOT THE RIGHT CHOICE.
OK, I got work to do. Enough of this madness.
So you are indirectly calling the ones that jumped in and still believe in the project "sheeps" ? Is that not a direct insult even if you are right ?
Most of your posts dont include single argument and it seems to me you are just one person who magnetically try to trash somebody's efforts down because things are not in the way you imagine them...
-
I'd be interested in an illustration project, but we'd need funding for marketing. (Kickstarter?) But your site is successful, no?
-
I continue to be vocal about the issues with the software because i believe people have the right to know all sides of a story. And i am even more vocal when bullies show up and start blaming me and telling me i dont have any right to my opinion and adding minuses to my posts just because they "don't like me." You better believe I am NOT going to let it drop and go on my merry way.
Both Ron and bunhill have made excellent points. And look at the mentality that puts bunhill down just because he doesnt have an SY site. This blind, worshipping following of Leo just baffles me. As a person, I am sure he is a good guy. Did he do a good thing writing this software? Yeah. But it's like that saying "The operation was a success but the patient died." Can you build a site with it? Yeah. Is it successful? Not so much.
It was LEOs choice to not charge, so don't be putting that blame on anybody, including me. From the start, for the life of me, I couldn't figure out why he didn't put it up on Themeforest or something.
There is no blind worshipping of Leo except in your own mind.
Exactly. As I sad in earlier thread like this: Just ignore her. Obviously she needs this kind of intention. She pretends to be interested in an objective exchange of views, but she never was ...
-
@ Chromaco - if you and Leo know what really went wrong with the project, why not come out and say it? Why let the speculating go on and on? There was a poll up asking who wanted to pay a subscription and when 9 people said no, everything was taken down and that was the end of it. If that is incorrect, come out and spill the truth.
@ Chromaco - I am not looking for continued development, but with every version something else was added, with bugs, and then the bug fixing continued. But on the next version again something new was added and bugs had to be fixed. At some point, bugs where stacking up, and that cost a lot of time fixing. Every feature was added when the previous feature wasnt yet bug free. To be honest, I havent used my site for months, I dont even know what the last version is, what bugs are left, if the licence system is fixed, if the batch editor is fixed, if the shopping cart is fixed. All these features never reached maturity. And all suggestions to fix something never materialised because the next feature was added. Thats why I am upset that the project got cancelled as I have the idea it was fully finished.
@ Chromaco - I had loads of ideas and suggestions, many went ignored. A proper working mobile version is more important then anything else. I still cant show my site to someone on a smartphone as it is just crap. I had all the facts and figures why a mobile site is eminent. No one took it serious. And I offered to pay for a mobile version.
And I still dont know why you have a ton of sales, and no one else does ;)
-
never been with leo, or symbio; so not a "worshipper nor an anti-cult"
but allow me 2 add my tuppence worth ... without pointing at anyone here.
i like the idea of hosting ur own site , from the start i read of leo,
but now even more, given the current situation with is and ss. only i don't have time for now 2 immerse myself globally, as i have more or less turn back 2 local work.
i realise some did not find it worth it, due 2 no sales . but the no sales has nothing 2 do with leo's making. it is ur own portfolio, if some others r selling in the same "connection" (4 lack of a better word, as i m told not 2 use "co-op" when describing symbio.)
anyway, like the co-op stocksy, it rises n falls with the network. symbio is only as strong as its weakest link. i like the idea, as it is one step in the current sorry state of ms to find a viable alternative.
as 2 whether it be fair 2 pay leo or not, why not then give him a percentage? since we give ss , is, etc a large %age n we have absolutely no control of where we r in the search placement, or when they decide 2 switch-off our portfolio when we reach a certain pay-out point.
(not my idea of conspiracy, but just quoting some long-timers from the forum itself ie"port falls off a cliff").
If you could start using correct punctuation, write full words and capitalise sentences and "I", maybe I could make something of your comment. Sorry, but I have hard time decoding that.
-
Ron tell me what you want. I'll see if I can help you. The VAT is coming although for the life of me I can't understand why Leo continues to work on it. If it wasn't for some interested parties behind the scene I'm sure it wouldn't be worth his time. Is there something else you would like?
-
Ron tell me what you want. I'll see if I can help you. The VAT is coming although for the life of me I can't understand why Leo continues to work on it. If it wasn't for some interested parties behind the scene I'm sure it wouldn't be worth his time. Is there something else you would like?
I dont think after all my criticism I am in a position to ask for anything. And I dont know what has been fixed, or what not. I need to check that. I will PM you for an email address as I will close this account soon. Still no desire to come back to MSG, but I needed to get information about Symbio and the other forum is dead.
As for the VAT plugin, I have no idea why he is still working on it either. But he started that VAT plugin months ago when the project was still ongoing. I guess he wants to finish it and be done with. If the VAT plugin comes at a reasonable price I will buy it.
-
If you could start using correct punctuation, write full words and capitalise sentences and "I", maybe I could make something of your comment. Sorry, but I have hard time decoding that.
LMAO i wasn't asking u ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
LMBO !! You joined the discussion, so it would be polite to write in a language we all understand ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Dona Nobis Pacem :-[
-
LMBO !! You joined the discussion, so it would be polite to write in a language we all understand ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D rofl
-
Ron tell me what you want. I'll see if I can help you. The VAT is coming although for the life of me I can't understand why Leo continues to work on it. If it wasn't for some interested parties behind the scene I'm sure it wouldn't be worth his time. Is there something else you would like?
I dont think after all my criticism I am in a position to ask for anything. And I dont know what has been fixed, or what not. I need to check that. I will PM you for an email address as I will close this account soon. Still no desire to come back to MSG, but I needed to get information about Symbio and the other forum is dead.
As for the VAT plugin, I have no idea why he is still working on it either. But he started that VAT plugin months ago when the project was still ongoing. I guess he wants to finish it and be done with. If the VAT plugin comes at a reasonable price I will buy it.
Fair enough. Still it bothers Leo that people are having issues. His biggest problem was balancing income with requests. He probably should have said no to a lot of these things. Licensing systems, batch editors, VAT etc. You asked what went wrong? In part it was never enough. Always more add ons. Bells and whistles. A forum. A central search. Better SEO, social networking, twitter integration. Payoneer integration. People were unhappy with their network partners. Other people had better partners. My network isn't working but his is. It's unfair because that network is better than mine. I'm not selling right away so it must be the theme. And on and on and on. It's exhausting. A lot of this should have come much later into the project and most if it should have come in the form of paid add ons. Yes Leo probably mismanaged the growth but he did his best. If the theme had stayed simple it probably would have been more pristine but people still would have been unhappy.
-
Dona Nobis Pacem :-[
fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt
;)
-
The VAT thing was always going to be important - certainly for any sites which want to sell images to EU customers.
-
Yep heating up nicely :)
-
Ron tell me what you want. I'll see if I can help you. The VAT is coming although for the life of me I can't understand why Leo continues to work on it. If it wasn't for some interested parties behind the scene I'm sure it wouldn't be worth his time. Is there something else you would like?
I dont think after all my criticism I am in a position to ask for anything. And I dont know what has been fixed, or what not. I need to check that. I will PM you for an email address as I will close this account soon. Still no desire to come back to MSG, but I needed to get information about Symbio and the other forum is dead.
As for the VAT plugin, I have no idea why he is still working on it either. But he started that VAT plugin months ago when the project was still ongoing. I guess he wants to finish it and be done with. If the VAT plugin comes at a reasonable price I will buy it.
Fair enough. Still it bothers Leo that people are having issues. His biggest problem was balancing income with requests. He probably should have said no to a lot of these things. Licensing systems, batch editors, VAT etc. You asked what went wrong? In part it was never enough. Always more add ons. Bells and whistles. A forum. A central search. Better SEO, social networking, twitter integration. Payoneer integration. People were unhappy with their network partners. Other people had better partners. My network isn't working but his is. It's unfair because that network is better than mine. I'm not selling right away so it must be the theme. And on and on and on. It's exhausting. A lot of this should have come much later into the project and most if it should have come in the form of paid add ons. Yes Leo probably mismanaged the growth but he did his best. If the theme had stayed simple it probably would have been more pristine but people still would have been unhappy.
Thats what I mean, stuff was being added to fast, when the previous feature wasnt fully stable. I never understood that. I dont use any of the bells and whistles, the only things that were truly needed was a good search feature and a batch editor and I paid for that.
I see my last comment got voted down as well, and it doesnt even have any criticism. LOL. Closing my account, this place is still toxic. Brrrrrrr.
Anyway, you have my email address. :)
-
Yep heating up nicely :)
Get used to it ! ;)
-
I agree about the VAT. Some serious people got involved regarding that one but that was way to late. Leo was already done because there were also innumerable threads started about multi language capability and dozens and dozens of threads regarding problems which resulted when people added their own code. Leo spent many hours fixing things for people. Many of these problems were related to people using non recommended hosting companies. The main problem was that there was to much ability for people to break their own sites. I think if someone were to follow in his footsteps they would need to seriously limit the ability of site owners to make modifications. Still there were a number of capable people who spent many hours of their own helping people. Those individual know who you are and you deserve a round of praise. I still think a lot more good came out of this than bad. It's just the bad is more fun to talk about.
@waka. I don't use any of them either. Not one. I set my sites up exactly like the tutorials said and used the recommended hosting. I've only had 1 issue which had to do with a certain version of the safari browser but it was pretty easy to solve.
-
Leo spent many hours fixing things for people.
I agree. I download lots of wordpress themes for clients, and basically what you get is a forum for questions and answers, and sometimes the developers ask for private emails. Once a day they usually go through and answer the emails. I see a lot of answers to questions wanting major deviations from what the theme provides, and the developer answers "you can't do it without a lot of extra time and coding. Sorry." I think that's more than fair when I am paying $45-$75 for a theme.
But some modifications being asked for were basic ones that photographers need. Basically, what the agencies offered is what photographers need in a theme.
Don't blame the people asking for stuff when all the developer has to do is say "Sorry, no, not at this time." Period.
-
In all the feverish argumentation, there is a problem beneath the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Limits_to_Growth)
Symbiostock is another group within Microstock, so it inherits the issues, concerns, and players.
There is also the issue that Symbiostock's main issues are not mainly of utility but philosophy.
I can see through numerous conversations that there are perhaps 2 or 3 main schools of thought on how to continue, if it continues. Symbiostock could be divided between several networks reflecting it's member's ideas and purposes, and be led independently. Then instead of conflicting within forum rants, they would move productively in separate directions reflecting their members, instead of trying to stick together and move in different directions - in effect going nowhere.
There comes a point when a system becomes burdensome to itself, and a division is needed to maintain health and growth. It works from a cellular level, to colonies of animals, to human society, and even ideas and yes software and online networks.
Its no coincidence that growth stopped as the sites approached 180 in number. More voices, more visions, more need, and too much on one person. Problems of morale ensue when some people make sales and others don't. I think the network has to be divided and restructured to reflect the 2 or 3 main schools of thought behind the project.
I'm a person who loves coding, but of limited time and ability in other areas, everyone could have seen this coming.
I'm moving in a separate and private direction with a newer version Symbiostock...division number one. There are those who have different ideas with great potential...Bunhill, personalities you've seen come in and speak of the greater picture. People like them, given time and resources, could turn Symbiostock into something amazing, or even make something spin off from it that is better yet. Yet there is always a trade-off, because stronger business models require unflattering decisions.
In any case, what happened with Symbio's start was natural, and the threshold of growth...also natural. It could die or go on...at this point its a question of qualified people of correct skills from levels of content (ie, images) to business (management) to coding (development) taking things in an independent direction or two.
If the message wasn't clear though its this:
Symbiostock needs to be divided into groups and separate networks, with their own leadership, development, and ways of benefiting, reflecting the groups of thought and differing priorities within the current network.
-
.
....What is to believe when the developer himself says, without running around the bush, the project is done and he is pulling out?
It is on the developer website for everyone to read. But then someone else comes out, speaking for the developer, saying it is not true.
Why are the two people running this project contradicting each other.
Which one is it, is it dead or is it not dead? If it is not dead, why are the two blog posts up saying it is?
Why is the forum being closed, reinstated, being closed, reinstated, and now read only? At least on three occasions I was told that the project had to come to an end.
......I paid for plugins that later were given away for free, thats not the way forward to make money, if that is your plan.
..,..If I had paid nothing for this software you wouldnt have heard one word of criticism from me, but I paid 155 dollar. That entitles me to have criticism. Period.
first - there's no contradiction -- leo did say the project was done, BUT he later changed his mind and has indicated he will continue to support the software if WP or other changes require it.
the forum was taken offline, but it has been back back online for several WEEKS, yet you repeat you claim it's read only. simple fact -- the forum is open.
you also misrepresented the facts when you claimed in your early posts that you had paid a lot of money for the SOFTWARE which is just no t true -- the software has ALWAYS been free, and a fully functional site can be setup for free. only later did you admit that you paid for the EXTRAs. I can understand your frustration after being such a strong supporter, and my clarifications here are not meant as a personal attack, but rather to make these facts clear to the lurkers and future readers who may not know the details
-
Its typical for all sorts of grassroot campains that they waste a lot of time on endless debating and end up in fractions of people with the same vision.
Its also typical that they only reach limited results.
...And that (former) (cult) member become hostile towards eachother.
Amazing is the tendency that (former) members absolutely have to take the dirty laundry out in public.
But so it is, it happens all the time. Especially among politicians.
-
@ Chromaco - I am not looking for continued development, but with every version something else was added, with bugs, and then the bug fixing continued. But on the next version again something new was added and bugs had to be fixed. At some point, bugs where stacking up, and that cost a lot of time fixing. Every feature was added when the previous feature wasnt yet bug free. To be honest, I havent used my site for months, I dont even know what the last version is, what bugs are left, .....
it would help keep the temperature down if you did your research before making claims then -- you admit you havent used the latest versions which have been running successfully for months -- there were only a few instances where a new version broke something essential, and ALL of those problems were fixed quickly
-
never been with leo, or symbio; so not a "worshipper nor an anti-cult"
but allow me 2 add my tuppence worth ... without pointing at anyone here.
i like the idea of hosting ur own site , from the start i read of leo,
but now even more, given the current situation with is and ss. only i don't have time for now 2 immerse myself globally, as i have more or less turn back 2 local work.
i realise some did not find it worth it, due 2 no sales . but the no sales has nothing 2 do with leo's making. it is ur own portfolio, if some others r selling in the same "connection" (4 lack of a better word, as i m told not 2 use "co-op" when describing symbio.)
anyway, like the co-op stocksy, it rises n falls with the network. symbio is only as strong as its weakest link. i like the idea, as it is one step in the current sorry state of ms to find a viable alternative.
as 2 whether it be fair 2 pay leo or not, why not then give him a percentage? since we give ss , is, etc a large %age n we have absolutely no control of where we r in the search placement, or when they decide 2 switch-off our portfolio when we reach a certain pay-out point.
(not my idea of conspiracy, but just quoting some long-timers from the forum itself ie"port falls off a cliff").
If you could start using correct punctuation, write full words and capitalise sentences and "I", maybe I could make something of your comment. Sorry, but I have hard time decoding that.
Sorry, but I've got to agree with Ron. You seem to have some good things to 'say' but, honestly, I can't get through your posts with the texting-like vocabulary.
-
I was just about to correct Ron's misconception about the forum being read only but I see that Steve beat me to it. It's been available for weeks and mentioned here and on our FB group more than once. For anyone that is looking for it you can find it here where Steve generously offered to host it. http://pix-now.com/community/ (http://pix-now.com/community/)
That said, it is quiet with minimal posting. I attribute that mostly to the loss of momentum without the influx of new sites but also because people are not fiddling with their sites and the current version(s) are stable. Without the regular addition of enhancements things seem to be sailing smoothly. I'm also selective now on where I will spend my time helping others on the forum too after my last experience. Without going into great detail I'll just say that someone complained long and loud about a single registration problem and no support. I spent time doing test registrations on his site and could not duplicate it. Others tried to help too. Leo chimed in and offered help. I offered up the suggestion of a plug in I use that can be set up to allow about 15+ social login ID's to sign into your Symbio site. I have no idea if he ever got the problem fixed but it seemed like it was possibly a problem with the registrants provider blocking something since others couldn't duplicate it. He came back a few days later with continued complaining and never acknowledged those that offered help. After I had that experience I can see why Leo lost his spirit to continue as he saw that magnified.
-
Its typical for all sorts of grassroot campains that they waste a lot of time on endless debating and end up in fractions of people with the same vision.
Its also typical that they only reach limited results.
...And that (former) (cult) member become hostile towards eachother.
Amazing is the tendency that (former) members absolutely have to take the dirty laundry out in public.
But so it is, it happens all the time. Especially among politicians.
We joke about the cultish influence, but iStock had the subject mastered to the point that nobody saw it. All the canister awards, "steel cage", domineering forum culture, exclusivity scams, the endless drama and convoluted 90 page forum threads. I hated the upload process, but every time I finished it they flashed an image before my eyes: "I love to upload". They were playing the psychology hard. People were less likely to complain because in those times competition was so scarce it was like printing your own money. Nobody complains about giving up %80 of infinity. That company set the stage.
Then there is Walmart, who I used to work for. The "meetings" and songs we were forced to sing, clapping like a bunch of kindergarteners. The point of singing and repetition is to ingrain the thought in the mind. They would hand out titles and worthless rewards (like iStock) to avoid paying you. They give you a little book about their founding father, hypnotize you with computer based learning (CBLs) and one time I even got in trouble for bringing a schedule onto the sales floor...totally wierd. It turns out that unionizers would use that information to infiltrate, something cults hate.
Now lets not even get started on new-age religions and modern "psychology"... I can see why some people act the way they do with their frizzy hair, erratic and contentious behavior, and confused frustrated way of life running in circles.
Symbiostock is late on the scene, and people are tired. Nobody can afford to give much effort... If only the others were held to the standard this is...
You wanna talk about cults...just go through society. Symbiostock was an honest attempt.
JPSDK I know some is lost in translation but I am being humorous here. I actually worked for a sign company that was founded by a hypnotist. He would talk all day about modern (and ancient) psychological ploys and controlling of people. Symbiostock hasn't even begun in the cult department! Take it from someone who knows.
-
Back on track though
"Re: Is this project dead?"
Obviously as long as MSG is alive, this project will never be dead, because 80% of it's life (at least!) is in forum drama. As far as I can tell its alive and well.
But on the practical and productive level, I'm strongly suggesting to divide the network into managable parts, like-minded people grouped together.
I'm an ignoramus. If people like Cascoly, Bunhill, and Hobostocker put in the dedication I did, it would be a done deal. Personally I've come to enjoy my regression back to the quiet life and I'm not going to give that up. I think this is ready to sink or swim on the community level though.
Consider this a positive statement! And I don't believe anyone is truly to "blame" anymore.
TTYL
Leo
-
Let me add my opinion to this very interesting thread :)
For me Symbiostock is still something important (and not dead :)). I even sold an image last week:)
I spent many days creating symbiostock.info, plugins and some networking code for Symbiostock. I still hope that Leo or someone else will continue this project. I thought about doing it myself, but I am afraid, that it is beyond my skills. Maybe, if I had more time :)
I even wanted to make something what I called "Symbiostock lite" or "symbiolite". Written from scratch very simple, but fast and with only minimal set of functions. Without bulky and slow Wordpress, but of course compatible with Symbiostock network interface.
What is very important for me: "my" Symbiostock should work out of the box. Ready to use stock site, with all menus, home page, EULA, slideshow etc. Even filled with few demo images.
Just upload script to server, enter few lines of personal info and start uploading.
It all should be like creating an account at any of existing stock sites.
Customization options - yes, of course available, but left for later.
This would be my branch of Symbio :)
-
AJT! I'll jump back in for you!
I love your contributions. To this day www.symbiostock.info (http://www.symbiostock.info) is like old-faithful. I find myself going there all the time. I'm also using it for the random symbiostock site of the day on twitter https://twitter.com/symbiostock (https://twitter.com/symbiostock) ... fetched from http://www.symbiostock.info/sitelist.php (http://www.symbiostock.info/sitelist.php)
I really miss the days when symbio was an adventure...you, Plrang, cascoly, amanda - huge part of that.
I often fantasize about a lighter version too was thinking of using Django python. https://www.djangoproject.com/ (https://www.djangoproject.com/) - it would be truly awesome to get a few flavors of Symbiostock out there to cater to different needs.
I don't have any giant jealosy over symbiostock. If everyone owns it, I say all the better. I think developers should jump right in and not be afraid to break anything...but really I know like you and Cascoly they will greatly outperform me. I think the future of the network is really dependent on you guys.
Glad to see you jump in again. If we get amanda and Plrang in here it might just be a new beginning! :)
-
Tax - regional, state and national sales taxes/VAT/TVA etc is a very complicated issue. Many customers would find it difficult to use most of the existing standalone sites because they not compliant from any sort of accounting and invoicing perspective. From a technical perspective the accounting and legals aspects of compliance look to me like the most difficult aspect.
Sites in one country are required to apply different taxes depending where the customer is based. It's the customers' countries' governments in many cases which require this. Whilst one might be tempted to argue that this is not your problem (that a foreign govt should have no say what you do) - it is the potential customer who is ultimately potentially affected. A professional customer (their accountant anyhow) is likely to need to be able to provide proper invoicing showing that tax has been charged etc (or not if they are exempt).
The whole thing is a great big muddle. Different rules everywhere - it does not just depend where you are but also where your customer is. It is something which the agencies can do properly because they have lawyers and accountants. It is not something which I think can be solved, reliably, at a community level. Even if a compliant shopping cart could be developed it would need constant updates in order to remain compliant as tax law is under constant revision.
IMO the solution to this would be to find and integrate a compliant third party commercial shopping cart which is capable of doing digital downloads and which solves the tax issue. I have no idea which.
-
IMO the solution to this would be to find and integrate a compliant third party commercial shopping cart which is capable of doing digital downloads and which solves the tax issue. I have no idea which.
I use Fastspring now for selling my defishing program. They act as a reseller and get 8.9%, it is acceptable for me. I was thinking about integrating it somehow with Symbio, maybe later :) There is also PayPro and many other similar companies.