Author Topic: How we announce our voices to make a call to our rights? (Read 21442 times)

madman · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2016, 08:25 »

I want, because I cant find, it is not too hard to give some links...

PaulieWalnuts · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2016, 08:38 »

And it is even less hard to search for yourself

etudiante_rapide · « **Reply #27 on:** August 07, 2016, 09:57 »

Quote from: Minsc on August 05, 2016, 01:25

Rumor has it that the iPhone 7 will have a 21 MP camera that can defocus the background more effectively than before. Won't be DSLR or even mirrorless quality, but it's closing the gap. After taking a few photos, everyone will think they're photographers and they will flood Instagram with their wonderful creations. Everyone will have photos of flowers, trees, clouds, tomatoes, strawberries and grapes good enough to be used for almost anything.

What good would a union do when we're in the middle of an oversupply? There is no reversing the pricing trend unless you take everyone's phones away and you're going to have to pry it off of their cold dead hands. It's right time to diversify and learn some new skills. Honestly, that's really the only thing you can control.

wise foretelling!!!
remember how it used to be sequentially below:
- view camera / medium format (hassel, bronica, mamiya, rolleiflex)... no other person on the mountain, literally.. a la ansel adams.. but yourself
- manual Nikon F ... 15 photographers in the city, maybe 2 PRO photographers at an event
- auto SLR ... 100 in the city, 10 PRO at the event
-digital ... 500 in the city, 10 PRO 50 amateurs at the event
-notebook/mob (as of last month's most recent event)...
at the event, we'll say...10 "pro" photographers with DSLR,mirrorless,even 35mm,
but as soon as the event begins, up when 50 mob, notebook, above your head LOL

last event really convinced me to never shoot at an event without being in the press box
ever again .

dbvirago · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2016, 15:00 »

Ok, I'll bite.
How does this union work?
How many microstock photographers are actively contributing content in today's market?
How many do you expect to join your union?
How are you going to bring them together?
Who sets the cost of images?
How does membership work?
How much does it cost?
Are there any other benefits besides collective bargaining?
How are you going to set prices so your union members make more money?
Why will the stock agencies buy from your union?
What are you going to do about all the photographers that don't join your union who are willing to sell their images for 20% less than you, undercutting your market, taking all of your customers and putting your union out of business?

Get back to me with some answers. If you haven't given these and many other questions any thought, you're just blowing smoke.

memakephoto · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2016, 15:06 »

The subject of this thread is amusing: "...a call to our rights?"

What? Stock photo sites lay out their terms, their pricing, royalties etc. pretty clearly for those that bother to read them and we all accept those terms by signing up. If they change policy or commissions we have every right to close our accounts. There's no abuse of rights here. This is crowd sourcing. They don't care about whether we're happy with the treatment because for every contributor that closes their account 10 more sign up.

In order to have a union and negotiate terms we'd have to have some kind of leverage. We don't. In the time it took me to write this post, 10 more people signed up with shutterstock. If you think you can get all of these contributors to uniformly withhold uploads or close their accounts in order to make our voices heard, good luck. It's been proposed and ignored so many times it makes me dizzy trying to count them all.

The search on msg is terrible. Search google for "microstockgroup union" and be enlightened.

Tryingmybest · « **Reply #30 on:** August 07, 2016, 19:29 »

When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.

PixelBytes · « **Reply #31 on:** August 07, 2016, 21:28 »

Quote from: memakephoto on August 07, 2016, 15:06

In order to have a union and negotiate terms we'd have to have some kind of leverage. We don't.

I am sad to agree, but this has been the problem ever since things started to go south, and it has only gotten worse.

sharpshot · « **Reply #32 on:** August 08, 2016, 05:05 »

Quote from: Tryingmybest on August 07, 2016, 19:29

When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.

Having seen in the past decade how the majority of contributors don't take part in anything that could hurt their short term interests, I don't see how a union could possibly work, so if it started, I don't think it would help at all. That isn't being pessimistic, that's being a realist. I still hope we will one day have a site majority owned by contributors that's open to all. That might only be slightly more likely to work than a union but I can have some optimism about that.

SpaceStockFootage · « **Reply #33 on:** August 08, 2016, 19:36 »

Quote from: Tryingmybest on August 07, 2016, 19:29

When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.

So if the OP had come in suggesting that we band together, take over the world, and embark on a program of mass genocide, torture and enslavement, the likes the world has never seen.... we should look at the positives and offer encouragement?

Sure, a union is slightly less extreme, but my point is that there are good ideas, bad ideas and somewhere inbetween ideas. Everyone is going to be slightly different when it it comes to which of those boxes they put that idea in. And I can't provide encouragement for an idea or course of action that I don't support, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to (unless they have children!).

The OP gets brownie points for suggesting something for the betterment of all of us. Although 90% of suggestions for 'improvement' usually come from the anger of getting rejected, or low comission or low sales prices, or no sales, or taxes etc etc, so it might not have been that selfless of an idea! And he loses brownie points for not completely thinking it through or researching if others had suggested something similar previously.

Polite, civil... no problem. But not encouragement!

gyllens · « **Reply #34 on:** August 09, 2016, 01:21 »

As long as new members are signing on in the thousands every single day and we are talking about people who are only too happy to see a sale of a few cents and as long as we have distributors cutting in on a third of the sale in question and as long as the agencies have options to change the algorithm to suit them but wipe out many members there is no chance of any changes in an already sliding micro-stock industry.

We made our beds so to speak.

KnowYourOnions · « **Reply #35 on:** August 09, 2016, 05:10 »

Quote from: sharpshot on August 08, 2016, 05:05

Quote from: Tryingmybest on August 07, 2016, 19:29
When it comes to a person bringing up this subject for the #th time, at least offer some encouragement. Look at the glass half-full. It can only lead to some bit of progress. Refer them to the link of previous discussion (as some have done). But don't try to shut them down. We're all on the same team. United we are strong. Divided, we are weak.
Having seen in the past decade how the majority of contributors don't take part in anything that could hurt their short term interests, I don't see how a union could possibly work, so if it started, I don't think it would help at all. That isn't being pessimistic, that's being a realist. I still hope we will one day have a site majority owned by contributors that's open to all. That might only be slightly more likely to work than a union but I can have some optimism about that.

Well said!

Revostock thread showed massive contributor passivity and I don't see how Union could work any better. $:-\$
http://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-video/so-how-much-money-revostock-owe-you-let's-sum-up-the-total/

But yes, I will support any community idea and vox populi gigs.

etudiante_rapide · « **Reply #36 on:** August 09, 2016, 11:44 »

Quote from: gyllens on August 09, 2016, 01:21

As long as new members are signing on in the thousands every single day and we are talking about people who are only too happy to see a sale of a few cents and as long as we have distributors cutting in on a third of the sale in question and as long as the agencies have options to change the algorithm to suit them but wipe out many members there is no chance of any changes in an already sliding micro-stock industry.

We made our beds so to speak.

there are other reasons why no one does it
-size (just like crime, global is very different to enforce)
-money (chasing after someone cost money)

it's as in the fashion industry re the whiteness prevailing in Milan, NY, Paris
when asked with China being an economic player today , since 2011,
why are the designers still not hiring more chinese, even if there is a large
market in chinese women being the largest economic potential...
"it does not matter enough".
..ie. even if you put more black, brown, yellow..models on catwalks,
they won't matter because their skin color won't be noticeable
nor the fashion of the clothes.

Rose Tinted Glasses · « **Reply #37 on:** August 09, 2016, 12:12 »

Let me get this straight, you agree to some pretty crappy terms such as 0.25c per download. Then you want to have a voice to call out your rights.

You will only have rights if you have respect and value for your own work.

ammit · « **Reply #38 on:** March 03, 2017, 16:09 »

This topic must stay alive, at least!
most of contributors are literate people doing amazing things. Interesting responses and and rejection reasons while they still suck. I bet that took a while for all to reach a certain goal selling stock. The same people that are supposed to be open minded and creative are rejecting the only meaningful way for them to increase their profits.
I totally agree with you idea and also willing to contribute.
Selling stock from 2009
full time stock seller
closed istock account while ago
deleted over 10000 stock images and 5000 clips from different agencies
Stock agencies played their part in the market
They got their share for it, no complains there
While i am embracing the idea i do not feel so optimist about finding incentives to convince the rest of the contributors

For those who are reading my post, try to find new solutions not new problems!
......
count me in !

ammit · « **Reply #39 on:** March 03, 2017, 17:20 »

Quote from: dbvirago on August 07, 2016, 15:00

Ok, I'll bite.
How does this union work?
How many microstock photographers are actively contributing content in today's market?
How many do you expect to join your union?
How are you going to bring them together?
Who sets the cost of images?
How does membership work?
How much does it cost?
Are there any other benefits besides collective bargaining?
How are you going to set prices so your union members make more money?
Why will the stock agencies buy from your union?
What are you going to do about all the photographers that don't join your union who are willing to sell their images for 20% less than you, undercutting your market, taking all of your customers and putting your union out of business?

Get back to me with some answers. If you haven't given these and many other questions any thought, you're just blowing smoke.

1. legal entity as board commission
2. stock agency in front of that
3. at least 500.000 global
4. incentive, high return per sale, idea that their opinion matters
5.motuh to mouth, social media, (force

6. union behind the agency by vote. 1$ 1 point, you pay 1000$ a year you have 1000 available points
7.like everything, with $ (How does membership work?)
8. it costs what you are willing to pay. eventually close to nothing 0.0000001% for maintenance maybe for a gym aka shutterstock, hammoks apple ...
9.dedicated photographers will be rising above iphone era with their creations not their tools
10. smartpone photographers are welcomme to join (side note)
11. leave the prices where they are, todays prices are ok for buyers and seller, commissions to producers isthe main complain
12. agencies are sellers not buyers! you cut them off completely, hardest thing to do (not impossible!)
13. union is the business, we take them out not vice versa

Some other important aspects you forgot to mention
communication channels must be setup initially
we are already having this discussion inside of a union (this forum, global effort that should not be forgotten)
someone somewhere should assume responsibility for the first steps
some of us should take the risk and bet some money. legal framework i believe will be expensive for a person but cheaper for few of us together
term union i find it to be old, meaningless and scary for the old timers, lets address it collective business (will affects russian contributors)

wpo is dying or already dead or in the pockets of corporations, but they still may have something to say( experience at least)

i am thinking of a great example of our times, living proof that communities, even virtual one are very powerful
in the rc world (drones) open source communities are beating the crap out of corporations

If my arguments have any impact on you feel free to reply
and yes we should blow some smoke

Best regards, Jack

Justanotherphotographer · « **Reply #40 on:** March 05, 2017, 02:31 »

It is so much easier than this. Just refuse to sign up with agencies that have terrible terms. They would soon be back to taking 15-20% as they should be (which is what we would be paying for marketing anyway). But no, we can't even do that, let alone the massive effort and expense of setting up our own agency.

ShadySue · « **Reply #41 on:** March 05, 2017, 02:46 »

sharpshot · « **Reply #42 on:** March 05, 2017, 03:59 »

Quote from: Justanotherphotographer on March 05, 2017, 02:31

It is so much easier than this. Just refuse to sign up with agencies that have terrible terms. They would soon be back to taking 15-20% as they should be (which is what we would be paying for marketing anyway). But no, we can't even do that, let alone the massive effort and expense of setting up our own agency.

I agree. We could also put more pressure on buyers not to use sites that make it very difficult for us to make money. It would be easy for them to switch to sites that have similar prices but pay us more, enabling us to supply better quality images on a higher budget. It isn't just contributors that lose if they keep using istock.

Tror · « **Reply #43 on:** March 05, 2017, 08:42 »

Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

obj owl · « **Reply #44 on:** March 05, 2017, 08:51 »

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42

Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

sharpshot · « **Reply #45 on:** March 05, 2017, 08:54 »

There have been times when some sites have gone too far even for the TOC's to cover them but lawyers aren't cheap and they are the only guaranteed winners.

Tror · « **Reply #46 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:03 »

Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 08:51

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

obj owl · « **Reply #47 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:18 »

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:03

Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 08:51
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

Tror · « **Reply #48 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:31 »

Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 09:18

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:03
Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 08:51
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

ShadySue · « **Reply #49 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:34 »

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:31

Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 09:18
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:03
Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 08:51
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

How is 'do not sign up to these agencies' defending the agencies?

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Author Topic: How we announce our voices to make a call to our rights? (Read 21442 times)

madman

PaulieWalnuts

etudiante_rapide

dbvirago

memakephoto

Tryingmybest

PixelBytes

sharpshot

SpaceStockFootage

gyllens

KnowYourOnions

etudiante_rapide

Rose Tinted Glasses

ammit

ammit

Justanotherphotographer

ShadySue

sharpshot

Tror

obj owl

sharpshot

Tror

obj owl

Tror

ShadySue

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