Author Topic: How we announce our voices to make a call to our rights? (Read 21345 times)

Tror · « **Reply #50 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:39 »

Quote from: ShadySue on March 05, 2017, 09:34

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:31
Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 09:18
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:03
Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 08:51
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

How is 'do not sign up to these agencies' defending the agencies?

Defending the agencies refers that the poster implied that we cannot legally do anything against the situation after signing up or we should not sign up in first place. It would be rather constructive to point out the week spots or discuss how other TOS of other companies in similar constellations got treated in front of a court than taking a shortcut and say : If you don`t like it do not sign up" and end the discussion with that :-)

Neither we nor the Agencies are perfect. It is still a new market. Markets and business relationships grow over time and almost always there is some rough ride included. Conditions get formed by maturity, errors, mistakes, lawsuits, broken contracts, etc. Just throw away everything does not help neither party.

Conditions have to be challenged and questioned.

Instead of wasting time with games like "who said what and is it right" why not consult a lawyer by yourself? After the discussion I had with this guy I am quite convinced that we, the contributors, would have a good standing in many cases. You just need a well defined actual case of one contributor in many occasions.

obj owl · « **Reply #51 on:** March 05, 2017, 09:52 »

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:39

Quote from: ShadySue on March 05, 2017, 09:34
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:31
Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 09:18
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 09:03
Quote from: obj owl on March 05, 2017, 08:51
Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 08:42
Form a group. Hire a lawyer. Let the lawyer participate in any outcoming compensation. Let the lawyer go through the past 10 years of agency behavior and let him check all the weak spots.

I am sure you a competent law firm would find plenty of reasons to squeeze the agencies. Some of them to death.

Signing up and accepting the Terms and Conditions is more like self harm rather than being inflicted by the agencies, it's up to you to stop.

I talked already to a lawyer without going further since I am not from the US. The TOS are in many of the cases invalid since they ignore actual legislation or vulnerable to be challenged and actually can do harm to the Agencies as well.

Whining around on Forums and putting colorful banners on websites won`t help. This is business.

I take it then that your lawyer would not advise you to sign up with these agencies.

That is up to us what we sign up, but fact is - signed up or not - many elements are invalid, others seem to be valid but the agencies break it, and other aspects they analyzed are not appearing in the TOS but under US legislation apparently you can hold them responsible for damages - copyright infringement is a big word here for example.

Just "Do not sign up if you do not agree" is not good enough. Companies like individuals cannot just dictate any Terms and put themselves above the applicable law. Educate them like Dogs, otherwise it will be (and actually IS) a mess. It is up to us to defend it.

But I appreciate your effort defending the Agencies interest :-)

How is 'do not sign up to these agencies' defending the agencies?

Defending the agencies refers to imply that we cannot legally do anything against the situation after signing up or we should not sign up in first place. It would be rather constructive to point out the week spots or discuss how other TOS of other companies in similar constellations got treated in front of a court than taking a shortcut and say : If you don`t like it do not sign up" and end the discussion with that :-)

How did these similar constellations get together?
As individuals our competition are other contributors and the agencies are our partners or so they like to say. If we want a say we need the clout of the constellation, the stars here go their own way.

memakephoto · « **Reply #52 on:** March 05, 2017, 12:04 »

I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Tror · « **Reply #53 on:** March 05, 2017, 12:42 »

Quote from: memakephoto on March 05, 2017, 12:04

I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Wow. So much negativity, motivation to find reasons why we cant change anything, lack of understanding of legalities and even lack of capacity of even reading and / or understanding my post combined leaves me speechless.

I am 25 years in the IP business now and have seen many things, but I cannot believe why me and other people get attacked for making constructive hints in FAVOR of the contributors which are actually valid.

What a sad place.

I am out of here.....

memakephoto · « **Reply #54 on:** March 05, 2017, 13:30 »

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 12:42

Quote from: memakephoto on March 05, 2017, 12:04
I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Wow. So much negativity, motivation to find reasons why we cant change anything, lack of understanding of legalities and even lack of capacity of even reading and / or understanding my post combined leaves me speechless.

I am 25 years in the IP business now and have seen many things, but I cannot believe why me and other people get attacked for making constructive hints in FAVOR of the contributors which are actually valid.

What a sad place.

I am out of here.....

Negativity? It's called reality. How the world works is how the world works. Courts of law will not allow you to renegotiate terms of a contract just because you suddenly want more than you agreed to when you signed the contract. If you are of sound mind and not under duress then the contract is legal and the best you could hope for is to get out of the contract, in other words cancel it, which is exactly what you can do here. No one is attacking you with negativity we're just giving you the facts from the real world.

Accusing others of negativity and lacking understanding of legalities when you can't even wrap your head around the idea of a contract is bizarre. Good luck to you.

Photodune Reject · « **Reply #55 on:** March 05, 2017, 13:39 »

Quote from: Tror on March 05, 2017, 12:42

Quote from: memakephoto on March 05, 2017, 12:04
I don't see what's so hard to understand. This is textbook contract law. The agency offers a service. They will pay you to sell your images in exchange for a cut of the proceeds. You agree. When you sign up and click the little button that says you agree to the terms and conditions, it's the same as a signature on a contract. However, unlike many other contracts, this one is not binding. Either party can end it at any time. If the agency thinks you have violated the terms they cancel your account. If you think the agency has violated the terms you cancel the account.

You guys think you should be able to renegotiate the terms of the contract now that you realize they're not as good as you hoped. But you can't. You have no L E V E R A G E. Deal with it or cancel your account. Simple.

You want to hire a lawyer to go over 10 years of activity across all the agencies hoping you can find a weakness and sue them? Great plan. A good lawyer costs between $300 to $500 per hour and you want them to go over 10 years of records? So you end up paying $400,000 for a chance to find a loophole and make an extra $100 in some class action lawsuit? Brilliant.

Wow. So much negativity, motivation to find reasons why we cant change anything, lack of understanding of legalities and even lack of capacity of even reading and / or understanding my post combined leaves me speechless.

I am 25 years in the IP business now and have seen many things, but I cannot believe why me and other people get attacked for making constructive hints in FAVOR of the contributors which are actually valid.

What a sad place.

I am out of here.....

there goes another one (Old Queen song- "Another one bites dust and another one gone!")

sharpshot · « **Reply #56 on:** March 05, 2017, 17:37 »

People have looked at class-action lawsuits against some of the sites before. There was one I remember that didn't interest me but I signed up to the mailing list to keep an eye on what they were doing. It stopped when the lawyer requested funds to start the ball rolling and I think most people could see that it was high risk and the only person guaranteed to have a good outcome was the lawyer. We have the option to leave sites if we don't like what they're doing, I just wish more people used that option.

JimP · « **Reply #57 on:** March 06, 2017, 07:54 »

Quote from: PixelBytes on August 07, 2016, 21:28

Quote from: memakephoto on August 07, 2016, 15:06

In order to have a union and negotiate terms we'd have to have some kind of leverage. We don't.

I am sad to agree, but this has been the problem ever since things started to go south, and it has only gotten worse.

Without power or leverage the union has no way to bargin. Find something we can control to negotiate, before hiring laywers or any talk of starting a union. Otherwise there's no point in any of this discussion. The End