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Author Topic: Where did she go wrong?  (Read 19591 times)

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hqimages

  • www.draiochtwebdesign.com
« on: September 10, 2009, 17:07 »
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http://fashionphotographyblog.com/2009/09/ultrahip-magazine-flaunt/

Interesting article and experience, and many questions!

1. Where did she go wrong? (I think I know, it involves the word free)
2. Is it professional to blog about these things?
3. Should this treatment be expected in this industry? What if the magazine was suddenly given exclusive images of Angelina Jolie (or someone!) and had to make a cut-throat decision, should we the photographer be told in advance? What about the credits?

It's a really good link you should go read, and GORGEOUS pictures.. just, stunning.


« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 17:25 »
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That article was too long.  What was the point?

hqimages

  • www.draiochtwebdesign.com
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 17:33 »
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That article was too long.  What was the point?

Something about people that love to crap all over other people's efforts.

PaulieWalnuts

  • On the Wrong Side of the Business
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 17:33 »
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Where did she go wrong?

It sounds like she assumed everything. She didn't set any upfront agreement about what she expected in return for doing the shoot. And now she's mad that the outcome didn't match her assumptions.


hqimages

  • www.draiochtwebdesign.com
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2009, 17:37 »
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Where did she go wrong?

It sounds like she assumed everything. She didn't set any upfront agreement about what she expected in return for doing the shoot. And now she's mad that the outcome didn't match her assumptions.



Yeah, I'm really divided about it, I think because she did it for free, the credits became too important.. and then when the credits and other things went wrong, she hit the roof. I'm in two minds about blogging about it though.. I wonder if she contacted them first before blogging, or will the blog be the first they hear of it.. so yeah I'm not sure a blog rant is the way to go here, and I think if people had been paid it would have been a non-issue!

lisafx

« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2009, 17:52 »
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This should never have been done for free.  Is that common in the industry?  Professional photographers, assistants, stylists, models, etc. all working for free?  If so, no wonder the industry is going down the tubes. 

It's a very harsh lesson, but one we all learn, regardless of our profession.  My husband was an electrician for 20+ years and got suckered into doing free work for people based on promises a couple of times early on.  Unsurprisingly the promised "future business" never materialized. 

Bottom line is don't do anything for a by-line, a credit, promise of future work, etc.   Micro is a bit different in that we are shooting on speculation and hoping for sales down the line, but at least we are shooting our own concepts in our own time.  If you are following someone else's brief and schedule everyone involved should be getting a paycheck.  Period.

« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2009, 18:17 »
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Pretty crappy way to be treated, but even if it was free they should've had a contract stating that credits etc. etc. would be given in return.. Trust isn't a good business word..

helix7

« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 18:52 »
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Quote
In the 23 years Ive been shooting editorials, this has never happened to one of my shoots before. Never.

23 years in the business and she's doing shoots for nothing more than a credit? I don't get these types of people.

I've worked for similar types before and never understood it. They'll all brag about how long they've been in the business, how experienced they are, how sought-after they are, and yet they do spec/free work.


« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2009, 02:47 »
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I didn't read it, but watched the video (i'm young, short attention span, 21st century fried my brain etc.)..

Every now and then when dealing with certain modelling agencies, stylists or location people, i come across this sort of wishy-washy unproductive, don't-really-want-to-commit-or-care-about anything, attitude. Is she surprised things went badly? and then seems to really making a real drama about it now.

Its different in stock, the successful ones are committed and have a lot of energy and burn for what they do.

Bit of a rant.. just glad not to shoot fashion.

Thanks for sharing!

« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 11:56 »
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To Helix, Tubed, LisaFX, Paulie Walnuts and Others: You do realize that 95% of fashion editorials are done without contracts?? Usually a verbal agreement, phone or email from the magazine is all that is necessary for this type of gig.

Also, regarding not getting paid, 99.99% of all magazines of this caliber never pay a dime to any photographer. The work is strictly for tearsheets and promotion. The photographer spends money to make the shoot look good, just as they would printing promo cards every year and sending them to potential clients... Its advertising....

As with many artistic fields... Interior designers do "Showcase Homes" and spend thousands out of their own pocket just to make them look good so that when people go for a viewing they can see the designers talent.... or maybe even get their rooms photographed in a high-end magazine.

Anybody here talking about contracts or "shooting for free" has no experience in the Fashion Photography field... 

PS. about 23 years experience and still shooting for "Free". You do this for advertising campaigns that pay 120,000 day rates, which Melissa has done ;) Also, ever hear about "Keeping your art alive"??? You can't just sit around all day and wait for the money gigs to come to you.... Its about constantly reinventing, recreating, and learning more, everyday... Anyone in an artistic field should know this...


« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 12:13 »
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Doesn't sound like the "Fashion Photography Field" is anything I'd ever want to get into.

« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2009, 13:18 »
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To Helix, Tubed, LisaFX, Paulie Walnuts and Others: You do realize that 95% of fashion editorials are done without contracts?? Usually a verbal agreement, phone or email from the magazine is all that is necessary for this type of gig.

Also, regarding not getting paid, 99.99% of all magazines of this caliber never pay a dime to any photographer. The work is strictly for tearsheets and promotion. The photographer spends money to make the shoot look good, just as they would printing promo cards every year and sending them to potential clients... Its advertising....


^^^ I'm astonished to read this and, like Sean, have no plans to offer my services for free shoots any time soon. I'm struggling to have much sympathy for Melissa either to be honest __ if she was doing the shoot to 'advertise' her services then writing that blog, naming names and specifying the magazine, etc must surely have just trashed her reputation within the industry forever.

I'm no expert on 'fashion shoots' but isn't the main point to actually show off the clothes? The images might be very moody and arty, if you like that sort of thing, but I can't see much detail of the clothes at all __ they're virtually silhouetted in most of the images. Maybe the editor used fewer of them because of this?

Of course Melissa herself has an 'intern' too, which seems to be the modern term for 'slave'. I wonder how many interns are able to reflect positively on their experiences sometime later and consider that they were appropriately rewarded or benefited with training/opportunities for their services?

« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2009, 13:41 »
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if she was doing the shoot to 'advertise' her services then writing that blog, naming names and specifying the magazine, etc must surely have just trashed her reputation within the industry forever.

No, not exactly, just with magazines that don't pay, seems like more of a gain to me ;) Advertising clients don't give 2 cents about flaunt magazine or magazines that don't pay for that matter...

I'm no expert on 'fashion shoots' but isn't the main point to actually show off the clothes? The images might be very moody and arty, if you like that sort of thing, but I can't see much detail of the clothes at all __ they're virtually silhouetted in most of the images. Maybe the editor used fewer of them because of this?

Editorials are more about telling a story, not entirely showing off the clothes... That's more on the "look-book" side of things. Anyways this is completely besides the point, the fact is what was promised was not delivered... Nor discussed... Nor credited...

Of course Melissa herself has an 'intern' too, which seems to be the modern term for 'slave'. I wonder how many interns are able to reflect positively on their experiences sometime later and consider that they were appropriately rewarded or benefited with training/opportunities for their services?

I've interned for many people and have learned great great things... It was quite a positive experience... Usually people who are smart when looking for an internship will go after the people they admire the most... Hasn't there been a time in you're life you'd love if the person you looked up to the most could teach you a coupla' things? I'd much rather refer to it as a "Mentor"... Its extremely common in a lot of industries...

lisafx

« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 13:49 »
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To Helix, Tubed, LisaFX, Paulie Walnuts and Others: You do realize that 95% of fashion editorials are done without contracts?? Usually a verbal agreement, phone or email from the magazine is all that is necessary for this type of gig.

Also, regarding not getting paid, 99.99% of all magazines of this caliber never pay a dime to any photographer. The work is strictly for tearsheets and promotion. The photographer spends money to make the shoot look good, just as they would printing promo cards every year and sending them to potential clients... Its advertising....


^^^ I'm astonished to read this and, like Sean, have no plans to offer my services for free shoots any time soon. I'm struggling to have much sympathy for Melissa either to be honest __ if she was doing the shoot to 'advertise' her services then writing that blog, naming names and specifying the magazine, etc must surely have just trashed her reputation within the industry forever.


Add me to the list of the astonished  ::)

Hard to believe that an entire industry of the magnitude of the fashion photography industry manages to hum along without anyone getting paid or any contracts being signed (99.9% of the time).  Seriously - very hard to believe.  

But if this is the way it is normally done in the fashion industry, then I guess the photogs and others know this going into it, right?  

If this is really how the fashion industry operates, color me happy I am not in that business.  At least if one of my images is used in a magazine I got paid for it.  Not much, but certainly not for free.

This blog should be considered a cautionary tale for doing business without contracts or payment.


No, not exactly, just with magazines that don't pay, seems like more of a gain to me ;) Advertising clients don't give 2 cents about flaunt magazine or magazines that don't pay for that matter...

So then why on Earth would a professional photographer with 23 years experience get suckered into working for such a low caliber rag for free?  

Sorry, but you seem to be saying on the one hand that this is how it is done 99.9% if the time, "tearsheets and promotion", and then saying that advertising clients don't read these magazines.  How does it work as "promotion" if the paying clients "don't give 2 cents" about these magazines?

« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 13:53 by lisafx »

wilddingo

    This user is banned.
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2009, 14:44 »
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I think its a good time for you microstockers to pause and thank heavens that youre part of an industry where high-quality contracts that reward you handsomely for your work are the norm, an industry where 99% of you do not work for free, an industry where getting published without a credit is so rare, an industry where agencies are so fair and sensitive that its truly hard to understand why anyone would want to be someone elses photography slave, an industry

« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2009, 15:24 »
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I think its a good time for you microstockers to pause and thank heavens that youre part of an industry where high-quality contracts that reward you handsomely for your work are the norm, an industry where 99% of you do not work for free, an industry where getting published without a credit is so rare, an industry where agencies are so fair and sensitive that its truly hard to understand why anyone would want to be someone elses photography slave, an industry

Always so much to say about everyone else's business, but nothing to say about his own ...

« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2009, 15:51 »
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wilddingo...I know what every one of his posts are going to say and I have hit the ignore button. But it's like a train wreck...I have to look! But then, it's the same old tune.  ::)

I watched part of the video and skimmed through the blog and looked at the photos. Sometimes I think these things are all pre-planned marketing gimmicks. After badmouthing the magazine that way, would anyone want to hire her again? If this is an industry standard to work this way, why is she making a big case out of it?

Screams publicity stunt to me, but hey, just my opinion.


lisafx

« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2009, 15:58 »
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wilddingo...I know what every one of his posts are going to say and I have hit the ignore button. But it's like a train wreck...I have to look! But then, it's the same old tune.  ::)


LOL!  Me too, exactly!  Have him on ignore but sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me.  Nothing new there, though. 

« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2009, 16:16 »
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Wilddingo is correct on this one. I was thinking (but didn't post earlier) that for us to can someone else's business model as unworkable when ours has come under so much criticism for the same reason seems a little sus. Looking at the istock contrib charts, only 4000 out of approx 30,000 contributors are silver or above. The rest are subsidising the agency by buying their own equipment and training. Of the 4000 how many are actually getting a good return on investment (time included)? Like most entertainment industries, the rewards can be great for the few who make it, which is what many of us are aiming for but relatively few will achieve.

lisafx

« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2009, 16:24 »
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Wilddingo is correct on this one. I was thinking (but didn't post earlier) that for us to can someone else's business model as unworkable when ours has come under so much criticism for the same reason seems a little sus.

The title of this thread is "Where did she go wrong?"

So presumably we are being asked to comment on, you know, where she went wrong.  Or at least what she might have done to avoid this situation.

I don't see how suggesting that getting a contract and/or getting paid for your efforts is "canning someone else's business model".   ???


« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2009, 16:26 »
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Wilddingo is correct on this one. I was thinking (but didn't post earlier) that for us to can someone else's business model as unworkable when ours has come under so much criticism for the same reason seems a little sus.

The title of this thread is "Where did she go wrong?"

So presumably we are being asked to comment on, you know, where she went wrong.  Or at least what she might have done to avoid this situation.

I don't see how suggesting that getting a contract and/or getting paid for your efforts is "canning someone else's business model".   ???


See your previous post but one. Just because something went wrong once doesn't mean the business model is unworkable. Also, by generating publicity about what happened she has probably done better out of it than if it had all gone as expected.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 16:30 by averil »

« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2009, 16:31 »
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See your previous post but one. Just because something went wrong once doesn't mean the business model is unworkable.

What business model? Working for free without a contract appears to be the norm.

« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2009, 16:32 »
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See your previous post but one. Just because something went wrong once doesn't mean the business model is unworkable.

What business model? Working for free without a contract appears to be the norm.
It's called advertising Sean. She probably gets the odd commissioned job out of it.

lisafx

« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2009, 16:35 »
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See your previous post but one. Just because something went wrong once doesn't mean the business model is unworkable.
[/quote]

Maybe you can explain to me how working for free and without a contract (95-99% if the time, according to crimsonverbs) is any kind of "business model"?  Doesn't the term "business model" imply that money will be made at some point?  

From Wikipedia, the purpose of a business:
The owners and operators of a business have as one of their main objectives the receipt or generation of a financial return in exchange for work and acceptance of risk.

« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2009, 16:38 »
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It's called advertising Sean. She probably gets the odd commissioned job out of it.

Sounds like a great system.  Working for free for 23 years to get the odd commissioned job.


 

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