@Cobalt:
Yes, giving the contributors the normal credits commissions would make much more sense.

I don't recommend uploading directly to Shotshop, because their uploading process is painful. But if you want to try it out, feel free to do so... :-)

If deposit pays out the normal commission instead of a subs sale, I really don´t see how people can complain. After all deposit is just trying to sell the content with their own price system in other countries. And because they offer files cheap they can probably close these deals. I am sure many agencies offer reseller deals and getting in is also a competitive challenge.

If you are sending files to deposit you accept their price system. Which again shows how important it is to divide ones work by price point and quality and feed the agencies selectively with your content.

Quote from: cobalt on February 13, 2014, 09:21
If deposit pays out the normal commission instead of a subs sale, I really don´t see how people can complain. After all deposit is just trying to sell the content with their own price system in other countries. And because they offer files cheap they can probably close these deals. I am sure many agencies offer reseller deals and getting in is also a competitive challenge.

If you are sending files to deposit you accept their price system. Which again shows how important it is to divide ones work by price point and quality and feed the agencies selectively with your content.

They should provide a list of partners that sell through their API and allow opt out per partner. The same way that Yay does it. That would allow contributors to choose where they want their files to be sold, and would allow to exclude those outlets we already deliver to directly.
If they did this (and of course pay credit royalties instead of sub royalties) it would be ok with me.

Quote from: cobalt on February 13, 2014, 09:21
If deposit pays out the normal commission instead of a subs sale, I really don´t see how people can complain. After all deposit is just trying to sell the content with their own price system in other countries. And because they offer files cheap they can probably close these deals. I am sure many agencies offer reseller deals and getting in is also a competitive challenge.

If you are sending files to deposit you accept their price system. Which again shows how important it is to divide ones work by price point and quality and feed the agencies selectively with your content.

I don't agree. The point is- the revenue for subs you get paid for any sale on Shotshop has nothing to do with credit sales. Shotshop offers no subscriptions.  And there is another point. The prices of the deposit-pictures at Shopshop are higher than the "original" ShotShop Pictures.

I've sent a request to DP to enlighten me about this issue as well. No matter if we agreed to the price system of DP, if this accounting reveals to be true it's an unfair and unethically Deal (You can call me naive, I dont'care). I'm definetely not interested to sell my work with a share of around 1 % or even below.

Quote from: roede-orm on February 13, 2014, 09:31
And there is another point. The prices of the deposit-pictures at Shopshop are higher than the "original" ShotShop Pictures.

This, though, is not entirely true. The intial price for a XS and S file size might be higher, but the prices for a L or XL files seem to be lower. (0,99 to 49,90 EUro compared to 1,99 to 19,90 Euro für DP files)

I am not saying you have to take the deal or be happy about it. But it was my choice to send files to an agency that sells files for 6 dollars. I also have the option not to do that. As long as I get the full 44% of what deposit receives, i really don´t see how I can be upset with them. If they sell it for a subs sale - that is a different issue.

If deposit photos was getting a bigger share than the contract says I would be genuinely upset, but if it is correct that they are paying out the same percentage as on their own site, they are not getting an additional benefit.

Looking at my own files, I can see this price structure:

Shotshop Direct

XSmall       300 x 200    0,99 €
Small        600 x 400    4,99 €
Medium      1200 x 800    9,95 €
Large       1875 x 1250  15,95 €
XLarge      2700 x 1800  22,90 €
XXLarge     3750 x 2500  30,90 €
Maximum     5760 x 3840  39,90 €
EL          5760 x 3840  79,00 €

Shotshop Depositphoto

XSmall       300 x 200    1,99 €
Small        600 x 400    4,99 €
Medium      1200 x 800    9,95 €
Large       1875 x 1250  14,95 €
XLarge      2700 x 1800  19,90 €
XXLarge     3750 x 2500  24,90 €
Maximum     5760 x 3840  29,90 €
EL          5760 x 3840  99,00 €

Quote from: cobalt on February 13, 2014, 12:34
I am not saying you have to take the deal or be happy about it. But it was my choice to send files to an agency that sells files for 6 dollars. I also have the option not to do that.

If deposit photos was getting a bigger share than the contract says I would be genuinely upset, but if it is correct that they are paying out the same percentage as on their own site, they are not getting an additional benefit.

The one to blame is shotshop, that advertises that it pays artists between 35-75% but then makes deals with other agencies where they can get files a lot cheaper and don´t have to pay out what they claim they do on their website.

I find shotshops actions extremely misleading, because even their customers will assume that they are paying out what it says on their website. Since they are a German agency, I wonder if this would even be legal over here, but I am not a lawyer.

Actually this is a good reason not to work with shotshop, because for me this is false advertising. I also would´t be surprised if they then also rig their best match to prefer files from deposit because they pay out so much less than to their own artists. They even have exclusive artists that get 75%, i wonder how they feel about this deal.

Right now, all this about who is to blame is speculation, because DP has not yet responded AFAIK. The only thing we know for sure is that it's us that's been screwed in this deal. And if DP agrees to a deal like this, I will be pulling my port sooner than they can find some arguments why this is such a brilliant business idea that will make us all so much money ...

I removed my comments about shotshop, because like you say we need more information.

Especially how a sale with credits on shotshop turns into a subs sale on deposit. That is not acceptable.

The best solution is if they offer an opt out from resellers as well.

Answer from Depositphotos:

Depositphotos reserves the right to determine the conditions of its cooperation with Partner companies. We sell those files by subscriptions, but  it is up to our partners to set their prices.
It is stated in our Supply Agreement:
"Depositphotos reserves the rights to distribute Files not only on the Website directly, but also through Partners. Contributor agrees that Depositphotos has the right to grant or pass along to Partners under separate agreements specific rights, constraints, obligations, licenses and other legal and business matters regarding Files. Depositphotos has the implicit right to provide Partners with access to the Files accepted at the Website via its own program interfaces (API) or any other means sanctioned and approved by Depositphotos, provided such access does not breach the provisions of the Standard and Extended License Agreements. "

That is completely crazy.

Very disappointing deposit. Very.

Instead of closing my account I've got a reply from Depositphoto an excerpt:
'Our Partnership programs have been created to boost your sales.
Moreover, it is a great opportunity to enter new markets and use extra trading channels.

Depositphotos reserves the right to determine the conditions of its cooperation with Partner companies. We sell those files by subscriptions, but  it is up to our partners to set their prices.'

Though I still think that Depositphotos shouldn't make deals like this I have to say now that Shotshop is the real scam and not Deposit!
I will ask them if option out of partnersales guarantee  me that my photos will removed from Shotshop and similar deals and if yes I maybe leave my port there.
Nevertheless this was a real eye opener I will have a closer look at all partner deals!

ah you got the same email

Did they also write this sentence in your email vilainecrevette:

If for some reason, you would like to opt out of our partnership programs, just let us know and we will comply with your request. However, please keep in mind, in that case you will be excluded from all our partnership programs and your images will be sold solely on depositphotos.com

?

I got that whole spiel too. For me its more about the transparency of the whole thing. I trust these agencies to represent me honestly. Yes they conform to the letter of their agreements but this so very much violates the spirit of them. Anyone, if they pay out balances less than payout I'll likely shut down my account.

duplicate post, sorry

I've got an answer from Depositphotos as well, seems to be Copy & Paste:

"Hello Robert,

Our Partnership programs have been created to boost contributors's sales via new markets.

Our contributors were opted out of our Extended license partner sales upon their requests, so their files are no longer sold via our Extended license partner sales. Shotshop is our API reseller. Shotshop purchases our subscriptions to resell our images under the Standard license.

Depositphotos reserves the right to determine the conditions of its cooperation with Partner companies. We sell those files by subscriptions (under the standard license), but it is up to our partners to set their prices and the way to sell them as long as they stick to license terms.

It is stated in our Supply Agreement:
"Depositphotos reserves the rights to distribute Files not only on the Website directly, but also through Partners. Contributor agrees that Depositphotos has the right to grant or pass along to Partners under separate agreements specific rights, constraints, obligations, licenses and other legal and business matters regarding Files. Depositphotos has the implicit right to provide Partners with access to the Files accepted at the Website via its own program interfaces (API) or any other means sanctioned and approved by Depositphotos, provided such access does not breach the provisions of the Standard and Extended License Agreements. "

If contributors want to opt out of our partnership programs, we will exclude their portfolios from all our partnership programs upon their requests and their images will be sold solely on depositphotos.com

Kind regards,
Vicky."

Quote from: farbled on February 13, 2014, 14:25
I got that whole spiel too. For me its more about the transparency of the whole thing. I trust these agencies to represent me honestly. Yes they conform to the letter of their agreements but this so very much violates the spirit of them. Anyone, if they pay out balances less than payout I'll likely shut down my account.

Yeah if I think a little bit a longer about it you're right, they can't be trusted anymore first the sms-deal and then this. Though they didn't make much of this deal they acted completely against our interests.

Deals like these totally undermine any trust you can have in deposit as an agency. I just deactivated 200 files. I will continue to supply deposit but it will be content suitable for "deals" like these.

What a terrible disappointment. They must realise that the artists are connected worldwide and you can´t hide these things.

And what a shame how shotshop is treating their artists. Claiming to payout of 35-75% on their website and then paying out less than 1%...

I recieved the same e-mail from DP and I came to the conclusion that they are not a fair company!
Opted out of their partnership programs and if they try to make another stupid deal I will remove my whole portfolio! 

Quote from: farbled on February 13, 2014, 14:25
I got that whole spiel too. For me its more about the transparency of the whole thing. I trust these agencies to represent me honestly. Yes they conform to the letter of their agreements but this so very much violates the spirit of them. Anyone, if they pay out balances less than payout I'll likely shut down my account.

Remember dp was caught up in shenanigans a few years back and came to msg to try to repair their reputation. This is to say that they already have history with cheating contributors.

Quote from: farbled on February 13, 2014, 14:25
I got that whole spiel too. For me its more about the transparency of the whole thing. I trust these agencies to represent me honestly. Yes they conform to the letter of their agreements but this so very much violates the spirit of them. Anyone, if they pay out balances less than payout I'll likely shut down my account.

You're so right. Probably all the agencies get clever legal writers to write the contracts in such a way that you'd never guess what you might be in for down the line, but somehow there's always flexibility - on their side of the contract.

Quote from: stocked on February 13, 2014, 14:18
Did they also write this sentence in your email vilainecrevette:

If for some reason, you would like to opt out of our partnership programs, just let us know and we will comply with your request. However, please keep in mind, in that case you will be excluded from all our partnership programs and your images will be sold solely on depositphotos.com

?

After I sent my Shotshop OPT OUT request I received this, as well.
Fair play is dead on stock.

Hmm,
what to do

Again same old question: Is it better 0,30 $ or nothing?

This subs "stinks like ferret."

Okay, I'm not someone making rush decisions on business issues.

Here is my take on it: There have been agency partnerships in the industry for a very long time. The "industry standard" is that the revenue is being split even between selling agency and supplying agency. Of that supplying agency's share, the photographer would get their usual share.

In this case, to me it would mean that if ShotShop sells an image for $20, I expect Deposit to earn $10 from it and pay me $4.40. This would be acceptable, especially as ShotShop has higher prices than Deposit, so I would get a fair share of what the actual client pays. Well, with 44% of 50%, I still get 22% which is higher than some other agencies are paying for direct sales.

A "subscription" is a totally different thing. It means a client uses a large amount of images for their own purposes. There is no "re-licensing" option as part of a subscription. I have not seen any subscription licensing agreements allowing re-licensing, did you? And most definitely not with a profit margin that high...

I have sent Deposit an email inquiring about the situation stating more or less my understanding of the industry. I will definitely not accept my files being offered for $40 and me getting paid $0.30.

But I am willing to let Deposit think about the situation as more and more photographers are going to be informed and question their support. If they come up quickly with a better solution for the future that makes us all win, I will stay. If they believe that this is their final word, then I will have my final word.