Quote from: luissantos84 on April 14, 2014, 20:35
even Sean joined SS (with 2400 pictures already)

Quote from: shudderstok on April 15, 2014, 01:29
sean did not drop IS based on his own decisions, he got kicked out, and has since had to scramble to make even a remote fraction of his previous income, and joining SS was an "experiment". unless i hear otherwise, i will just assume these are the facts.

experiment or not he is submitting at SS

p.s. yeah that deserves a minus

Quote from: luissantos84 on April 15, 2014, 06:43

Quote from: shudderstok on April 15, 2014, 01:29


even Sean joined SS (with 2400 pictures already)

sean did not drop IS based on his own decisions, he got kicked out, and has since had to scramble to make even a remote fraction of his previous income, and joining SS was an "experiment". unless i hear otherwise, i will just assume these are the facts.

experiment or not he is submitting at SS
[/quote]

hardly a solid endorsement for SS

Quote from: gbalex on April 15, 2014, 02:10

Quote from: Ron on April 14, 2014, 20:46
You want SS to compensate for inflation, LOL, which company or employer has ever done that. My previous employer Xerox told me tough luck when I complained about inflation and wanting a raise. You are just so bitter about SS... whatever.

Quote from: Ron on April 14, 2014, 22:07
Again you insult me, get off your high horse and stop pretending you are better then others. Why do you keep up with us mortals, dont you have better things to do, as heir to a fortune 200 company? I make 65000 dollar per year in my day job, dont you worry about me slaving for anyone.

I did not insult you or your job Ron, I did call you out on your ridiculous and false straw man assertions that companies do not compensate for inflation, nor do they give annual price of living increases each year.

So now you call me a liar and Xerox did give me raise? Xerox hasnt properly raised their salaries for almost 5 years now. I think they gave a 3% raise once, after I left, which didnt even cut the inflation at that time. Its the only reason I left them, because I was having less and less spending power. At SS my RPD has gone up and is still going up.

You live in internet truth, get out there in the real world and see that things are different. I am starting to think that you believe The Matrix was a documentary.

We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

Good answers however if we were able to make some changes. And I'll add, not just better commissions, also better prices that reflect the effort and equipment, or time for illustrators, necessary to produce better work. A higher value on artists work along with a better percentage of the license price.

Quote from: farbled on April 15, 2014, 00:18
Back to Uncle Pete's post, anyone have ideas on how to make things better for us as photographers and artists?

What do you picture your perfect agency to be like? Mine would be:

Sales volume like Shutterstock
Commissions like Offset or Stocksy
Curating like istock pre-2011-ish (seemed a big harder to get stuff in, that's a plus in my book)
Ease of use for contributors and buyers: no idea, they all have pluses and minuses
Forum: here of course, MSG!

Maybe someone can create an Etsy for microstock, where you pay to advertise your images on the site and you set the price. The problem, of course, is that that requires extra work (to describe and deliver the images), and also an upfront investment (however small) which I'm guessing most people wouldn't want to pay.

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 15, 2014, 15:33
We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

I disagree.  As a group we hold all the power.  But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it.  And if there were I doubt we could get organized and agree to take any significant action.

It's up to each individual to decide if MS is right for them cuz it isn't going to change without us, collectively, forcing that change.

Quote from: mlwinphoto on April 15, 2014, 18:24

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 15, 2014, 15:33
We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

I disagree.  As a group we hold all the power.  But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it.  And if there were I doubt we could get organized and agree to take any significant action.

It's up to each individual to decide if MS is right for them cuz it isn't going to change without us, collectively, forcing that change.

I agree. Most people seem to be fairly happy. I don't get it, but they are.

I suppose you could get 2 or more successful artists on one website co-op style. The hard part is, as always, finding buyers. It would take a dedicated effort from everyone to have high quality, relevant commercial images plus people to tweet, cold call, email and flog the site. Not impossible, just a lot of work. You don't need to have a huge amount of customers, just enough for bread and butter. Then you work on growing it.

"... to have high quality, relevant commercial images...

Who decides what those are? Everyone has a different opinion.

Quote from: cuppacoffee on April 15, 2014, 19:03
"... to have high quality, relevant commercial images...

Who decides what those are? Everyone has a different opinion.

That's why you pick people you can work with.

edit- if it was me for the sake of argument, I would search out people who have portfolios with complimentary images to mine, similar portfolio sizes and able to agree on pricing and curating. I'd also factor in how much technical/marketing/other help they could offer to such a site.

Quote from: cthoman on April 15, 2014, 18:51

Quote from: mlwinphoto on April 15, 2014, 18:24

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 15, 2014, 15:33
We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

I disagree.  As a group we hold all the power.  But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it.  And if there were I doubt we could get organized and agree to take any significant action.

It's up to each individual to decide if MS is right for them cuz it isn't going to change without us, collectively, forcing that change.

I agree. Most people seem to be fairly happy. I don't get it, but they are.

It is called learned helplessness http://tinyurl.com/l7frvvo

We do hold the power we just need to wake up to that fact. The site are hoping we don't and that is why they canned Sean, they know we hold the power and they knew we were listening to Sean.  Yuri built a functional site and that changed the power dynamic for him as well.

Quote from: gbalex on April 15, 2014, 19:46
We do hold the power we just need to wake up to that fact. The site are hoping we don't and that is why they canned Sean, they know we hold the power and they knew we were listening to Sean.  Yuri built a functional site and that changed the power dynamic for him as well.

Good luck with that. This pretty much explained it all to me...

http://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-discussion/let%27s-promote-together-%27the-best-contributor-friendly-agency%27!-first-time!/

Quote from: cthoman on April 15, 2014, 20:25

Quote from: gbalex on April 15, 2014, 19:46
We do hold the power we just need to wake up to that fact. The site are hoping we don't and that is why they canned Sean, they know we hold the power and they knew we were listening to Sean.  Yuri built a functional site and that changed the power dynamic for him as well.

Good luck with that. This pretty much explained it all to me...

http://www.microstockgroup.com/general-stock-discussion/let%27s-promote-together-%27the-best-contributor-friendly-agency%27!-first-time!/

I do agree that at that point in time many pinned their hopes on one site and that magnified the problem.

I do not agree that everyone will eventually become frog soup.  We already see that some of the bullfrogs have made attempts to jump out of the pot.

Quote from: Ron on April 15, 2014, 08:23

Quote from: gbalex on April 15, 2014, 02:10

Quote from: Ron on April 14, 2014, 20:46
You want SS to compensate for inflation, LOL, which company or employer has ever done that. My previous employer Xerox told me tough luck when I complained about inflation and wanting a raise. You are just so bitter about SS... whatever.

Quote from: Ron on April 14, 2014, 22:07
Again you insult me, get off your high horse and stop pretending you are better then others. Why do you keep up with us mortals, dont you have better things to do, as heir to a fortune 200 company? I make 65000 dollar per year in my day job, dont you worry about me slaving for anyone.

I did not insult you or your job Ron, I did call you out on your ridiculous and false straw man assertions that companies do not compensate for inflation, nor do they give annual price of living increases each year.

So now you call me a liar and Xerox did give me raise? Xerox hasnt properly raised their salaries for almost 5 years now. I think they gave a 3% raise once, after I left, which didnt even cut the inflation at that time. Its the only reason I left them, because I was having less and less spending power. At SS my RPD has gone up and is still going up.

You live in internet truth, get out there in the real world and see that things are different. I am starting to think that you believe The Matrix was a documentary.

Your logical strawman fallacies are becoming illogical, even by your all over the map strawman standards. They are good for throwing the  conversation off track and not much else.

Your projections, thoughts and fallacies are not my own!

Lets stick to the facts; only 4% of companies surveyed are NOT planning to give inflationary salary increases next year.

LOL. You win, lets give you your 2% inflation compensation and raise you from 0.38 cent to 0.3876 cent, rounded up, 39 cents per DL. I am sure I will see you again with snips and quotes, pissing and moaning about something else.

Why do you keep arguing with me anyways, after all the insults you have thrown at me its clear I am not at your level of intelligence. But I am done with your pretentious, disdain behavior. To me you are the perfect example of condescension.

Good luck with your sour grapes, I am heading for another BME.

Bye.

Quote from: Ron on April 15, 2014, 21:15
LOL. You win, lets give you your 2% inflation compensation and raise you from 0.38 cent to 0.3876 cent, rounded up, 39 cents per DL. I am sure I will see you again with snips and quotes, pissing and moaning about something else.

Why do you keep arguing with me anyways, after all the insults you have thrown at me its clear I am not at your level of intelligence. But I am done with your pretentious, disdain behavior. To me you are the perfect example of condescension.

Good luck with your sour grapes, I am heading for another BME.

Bye.

Again those are your own projections not mine. You are the one who consistently engages conversation with me.  I merely respond to your remarks which are completely off base.  The following link is a perfect example, I can not post a simple link to a positive article without you projecting your logical strawman fallacies regarding me into the mix http://tinyurl.com/ly2m734

Quote from: farbled on April 15, 2014, 18:54
I suppose you could get 2 or more successful artists on one website co-op style. The hard part is, as always, finding buyers. It would take a dedicated effort from everyone to have high quality, relevant commercial images plus people to tweet, cold call, email and flog the site. Not impossible, just a lot of work. You don't need to have a huge amount of customers, just enough for bread and butter. Then you work on growing it.

This was tried with Warmpicture.  It was a great idea, good collection of material, and quite a bit of effort from Dan and a few others to promote the site, but ultimately the returns did not compensate for the time and effort. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be extremely difficult, because sincere and diligent efforts have already proven inadequate to the task. 

Quote from: lisafx on April 15, 2014, 22:52

This was tried with Warmpicture.  It was a great idea, good collection of material, and quite a bit of effort from Dan and a few others to promote the site, but ultimately the returns did not compensate for the time and effort. 

I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would be extremely difficult, because sincere and diligent efforts have already proven inadequate to the task.

Fair point, I didn't know about that one. So I guess the question would be how to get some big clients on board to make it sustainable.

Quote from: farbled on April 15, 2014, 22:58
So I guess the question would be how to get some big clients on board to make it sustainable.

Definitely agree with this.  Perhaps some of the symbiostock folks can manage it.  Might even be worth paying someone to just focus on marketing and SEO.  If it was a big enough collective it should be doable. 

Quote from: lisafx on April 15, 2014, 23:07
Definitely agree with this.  Perhaps some of the symbiostock folks can manage it.  Might even be worth paying someone to just focus on marketing and SEO.  If it was a big enough collective it should be doable.

That's the plan. I think if you start small, pick your team (and it should be a team effort) there's no reason why it can't be done. There are tonnes of customers who have never heard of SS, IS and all the rest until they google "I need an image" and pick the first site that comes up.

So if it was your (you being the forum) co-op, what would your priorities be besides finding clients? Who would curate and how? How would you set pricing, payments, licenses, etc?

I could picture in true co-op fashion your work being peer approved (say you need 2 to agree), but that's me....

Quote from: gbalex on April 15, 2014, 19:46

Quote from: cthoman on April 15, 2014, 18:51

Quote from: mlwinphoto on April 15, 2014, 18:24

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 15, 2014, 15:33
We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

I disagree.  As a group we hold all the power.  But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it.  And if there were I doubt we could get organized and agree to take any significant action.

It's up to each individual to decide if MS is right for them cuz it isn't going to change without us, collectively, forcing that change.

I agree. Most people seem to be fairly happy. I don't get it, but they are.

It is called learned helplessness http://tinyurl.com/l7frvvo

We do hold the power we just need to wake up to that fact. The site are hoping we don't and that is why they canned Sean, they know we hold the power and they knew we were listening to Sean.  Yuri built a functional site and that changed the power dynamic for him as well.

you were listening to sean and some others, but to say "we" is nonsense. and the real reason they canned sean has nothing to do with the listeners site mailing some selected people trying to go private on facebook groups and accord stock etc to create a mutiny, or to create a script that was easy to delete all your images. it had nothing to do with that at all. sean shot himself in the foot he let his own ego get the better of himself.
i admire sean for being the voice of many, and he had balls for doing so, and for that i am thankful, but he was also working a few different angles while doing it, and getty found out. i don't think it was so much as what sean was saying openly on our behalf that got him canned, i think it was what was really transpiring in the background that got him canned.
were you invited to be in the secret facebook group? were you invited to the secret accord stock? if you saw what was being posted in both of those, specifically accord stock, then yes, if your were getty you would have canned him too.

Quote from: shudderstok on April 16, 2014, 01:51

Quote from: gbalex on April 15, 2014, 19:46

Quote from: cthoman on April 15, 2014, 18:51

Quote from: mlwinphoto on April 15, 2014, 18:24

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 15, 2014, 15:33
We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

I disagree.  As a group we hold all the power.  But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it.  And if there were I doubt we could get organized and agree to take any significant action.

It's up to each individual to decide if MS is right for them cuz it isn't going to change without us, collectively, forcing that change.

I agree. Most people seem to be fairly happy. I don't get it, but they are.

It is called learned helplessness http://tinyurl.com/l7frvvo

We do hold the power we just need to wake up to that fact. The site are hoping we don't and that is why they canned Sean, they know we hold the power and they knew we were listening to Sean.  Yuri built a functional site and that changed the power dynamic for him as well.

you were listening to sean and some others, but to say "we" is nonsense. and the real reason they canned sean has nothing to do with the listeners site mailing some selected people trying to go private on facebook groups and accord stock etc to create a mutiny, or to create a script that was easy to delete all your images. it had nothing to do with that at all. sean shot himself in the foot he let his own ego get the better of himself.
i admire sean for being the voice of many, and he had balls for doing so, and for that i am thankful, but he was also working a few different angles while doing it, and getty found out. i don't think it was so much as what sean was saying openly on our behalf that got him canned, i think it was what was really transpiring in the background that got him canned.
were you invited to be in the secret facebook group? were you invited to the secret accord stock? if you saw what was being posted in both of those, specifically accord stock, then yes, if your were getty you would have canned him too.

Sean is an honest and above board guy, who spoke out when many were afraid to and I respect him for that.  If all of the sites conducted business with integrity they would have not have to worry about large groups of contributors talking about business as usual. They canned Sean as a result of their own business decision and the backlash those actions "finally" created among large groups of its contributors. 

There will always be backlash if the micros do not choose to treat the contributors who power their success fairly. Fair treatment would include paying them a reasonable % of the profit that has been generated as a result of contributor resources and hard work. And it would include pricing those assets in a range that will bring returns that allows contributors a reasonable standard of life.

Nice shot at misrepresenting the reality. And for the other reply I never said anyone was happy, rather the opposite.

Somehow only part of my message was seen? Did you all miss this?

"We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers."

What is the power and bargaining tool that we have?

You see a Union needs to have something to leverage the employer with. Skill / Trained Workers, for example. They don't just come up and say "Hey we want more money..." There needs to be "Or Else"

"As a group we hold all the power."
How do you propose to harness and direct that power into something useful to bring about change.

I also disagree about the "But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it." Don't you read here? I'd bet that the majority of people are very disgruntled about the cuts and situation.

If this could be done: What is the power and bargaining tool that we have? Please tell me?

How do you get 30,000 artists (Number just for example) From around the world, different economics, to band together and force a change? Oh wait, you said we can't so we actually agree.

All that power is nothing at all but imaginary or theoretical power, if it can't be harnessed.

Quote from: mlwinphoto on April 15, 2014, 18:24

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 15, 2014, 15:33
We are powerless as a group, and that's probably what makes most artists angry when they look at the situation. Frustration out of the inability to actually make any significant change in how Microstock is run or how it pays the workers.

I disagree.  As a group we hold all the power.  But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it.  And if there were I doubt we could get organized and agree to take any significant action.

It's up to each individual to decide if MS is right for them cuz it isn't going to change without us, collectively, forcing that change.

And in the Darn Right catagory:

Quote from: gbalex on April 16, 2014, 15:31
There will always be backlash if the micros do not choose to treat the contributors who power their success fairly. Fair treatment would include paying them a reasonable % of the profit that has been generated as a result of contributor resources and hard work. And it would include pricing those assets in a range that will bring returns that allows contributors a reasonable standard of life.

I'd love it if that was the way it was.

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 16, 2014, 17:41
I also disagree about the "But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it." Don't you read here? I'd bet that the majority of people are very disgruntled about the cuts and situation.

I read here.  Maybe you don't read what I write or what I read.

You're obviously not too happy with the situation.  What are you doing about it?  I've dropped iStock and will be dropping SS when I reach payout.  How about you?

Talk is cheap.  Good luck getting the 'majority' organized to do something about it.

Can't disagree with that. Or the part about each individual makes their own choices.

Funny that we found the opposite solution, but to each their own. I dropped all agencies (in the process of a couple based on next payout) except SS and IS. Could be we have different ideas of the direction we wish to go, but that's not a problem. Free choice.

I'm still in favor of fair pay, for fair work. A fair percentage of nothing, is still nothing, so I'd say the agencies somehow need to raise the perceived value of our efforts. Instead they just keep chopping the values down, which creates a depression in the entire market.

Quote from: mlwinphoto on April 16, 2014, 17:55

Quote from: Uncle Pete on April 16, 2014, 17:41
I also disagree about the "But, there aren't enough of us disgruntled to the point where we are willing to do something about it." Don't you read here? I'd bet that the majority of people are very disgruntled about the cuts and situation.

I read here.  Maybe you don't read what I write or what I read.

You're obviously not too happy with the situation.  What are you doing about it?  I've dropped iStock and will be dropping SS when I reach payout.  How about you?

Talk is cheap.  Good luck getting the 'majority' organized to do something about it.

I'm not trying to organize, I'm saying that it's not possible, and that's why I say we are powerless. Some people want to say that's a weakness, I'm saying it's facing the facts.