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Author Topic: 10 dead 20 wounded in school shooting  (Read 21226 times)

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fujiko

« Reply #175 on: October 12, 2015, 10:25 »
+2
You are amazed that 1.5% of world's population owns 42% of the guns but you are not amazed that the same people with 42% of the guns does not account for 42% of gun murders?

I would suspect that most places in the world that have enormous rates of gun murders are also in the middle of some sort of civil war or are battling some form of organized terrorism. Unfortunately for them.

Fortunately for those of us who live in the US, we are not in the middle of a civil war, yet we *do* have a tremendous number of murders by gun each year.

How do you explain that in a nation supposedly at peace?

Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs.
Lots of factors influence this much more than "SO MANY GUNS!!!".


fujiko

« Reply #176 on: October 12, 2015, 10:27 »
+1
No, of course I'm not amazed. Actually, if you take it further and apply the 20/80 rule, 20% of gun owners in the U.S. would own 80% of the guns in the U.S., or about 1/3 of all the civilian-owned guns in the world. That's about a half percent of the world's population owning 33% of the guns. That's absolutely pathological.

So when pro-gun Americans say it's a mental health issue, maybe that's what they mean?

You are just making up numbers... sad.

Shelma1

« Reply #177 on: October 12, 2015, 10:31 »
+2
No, I'm now convinced it's really a mental health issue. There's a tiny subsegment of the world's population concentrated in the U.S. who are so paranoid they feel compelled to arm themselves with huge arsenals of guns.

Now I say sure, background checks are good, but the main thing that would reduce the proliferation of guns in the U.S. is to impose a strict limit on the number of guns per household. This would affect only about 7% of the U.S. population. Makes sense.

fujiko

« Reply #178 on: October 12, 2015, 11:11 »
+1
I get it, you are afraid of guns, you don't like guns and you want to ban them. You are making up numbers to have more arguments to support your belief.
You think you will feel safer if there were less guns.

I feel safer when everyone in the community I live can thrive, people have jobs, parents can feed the kids, people treat each other with respect on the street.

If you really cared about the deaths you would be looking at the real issues like poverty, inequality, education or racial issues. Instead of blaming just guns.

It's in front of everyone to see, even the anti-gun people making up numbers know poverty influences gun murder rate more than amount of guns, that's the reason they remove developing/poor countries from stats.

Shelma1

« Reply #179 on: October 12, 2015, 11:22 »
+2
I'm really excited about this. It could be a good way in. If a law restricting the number of guns per household only affected 7% of the U.S. population, 93% would remain unaffected and probably wouldn't be "up in arms" about it.

That's a much easier sell than any law that would affect all gun owners, since they make up much more of the population.

Ha! I'm sharing with my anti-gun ad peeps. Yippee!

« Reply #180 on: October 12, 2015, 11:49 »
+4
Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs.
Lots of factors influence this much more than "SO MANY GUNS!!!".

Well, let's compare:

SCENARIO A: Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs, and so many guns.

SCENARIO B: Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs, and many fewer guns.

Which scenario is most likely to lead to a safer society for all?

« Reply #181 on: October 12, 2015, 12:34 »
+7
What amazes me is that someone can put a positive spin on having armed police in a school.

fujiko

« Reply #182 on: October 12, 2015, 12:37 »
+1
Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs.
Lots of factors influence this much more than "SO MANY GUNS!!!".

Well, let's compare:

SCENARIO A: Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs, and so many guns.

SCENARIO B: Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs, and many fewer guns.

Which scenario is most likely to lead to a safer society for all?

The data already answers that question. No correlation between amount of guns and gun deaths. Safety will depend mainly on Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs.

Do you have in mind two similar countries that fit your question scenario to compare?

« Reply #183 on: October 12, 2015, 13:24 »
0
This shows flaws on both sides in thinking about guns and statistics. This was a study by the CDC and commisioned by Obama. Some facts that dispute anti-gun myths which backfired on Obama as well as show there needs to be some control and tight regulation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_nature/2013/06/handguns_suicides_mass_shootings_deaths_and_self_defense_findings_from_a.html

« Reply #184 on: October 12, 2015, 14:15 »
0
What amazes me is that someone can put a positive spin on having armed police in a school.

I do not see how it is anything but positive. I guess if someone lives in a utopian world it might been seen as bad. You can have armed police in cars, on the streets, in mall's, in banks, in some government buildings, at events, etc., but then at schools it is bad?

I see police officers as protecting society and that is a good thing. Cops are at schools not just because of guns and I would say all the years my kids were in school they were absolutely not there in case of shootings. They were there to help with traffic, other violence such as fights, a friendly face to the kids, or maybe rare parents/kid custody issues. Whatever they were needed for.

« Reply #185 on: October 12, 2015, 14:21 »
+6
It is NOT a posive thing if schoolchildren have to be guarded by police when they are in school.

They should be allowed to play and they should feel safe all the time.

Shelma1

« Reply #186 on: October 12, 2015, 14:27 »
+4
What amazes me is that someone can put a positive spin on having armed police in a school.

I do not see how it is anything but positive. I guess if someone lives in a utopian world it might been seen as bad. You can have armed police in cars, on the streets, in mall's, in banks, in some government buildings, at events, etc., but then at schools it is bad?

I see police officers as protecting society and that is a good thing. Cops are at schools not just because of guns and I would say all the years my kids were in school they were absolutely not there in case of shootings. They were there to help with traffic, other violence such as fights, a friendly face to the kids, or maybe rare parents/kid custody issues. Whatever they were needed for.

Is the rest of the world utopia, or is your part of the world dystopia?

« Reply #187 on: October 12, 2015, 14:35 »
0
It is NOT a posive thing if schoolchildren have to be guarded by police when they are in school.

They should be allowed to play and they should feel safe all the time.

Who said they were not able to play or feel safe? My kids were able to play. They did not feel afraid. When the police were not there, they did feel safe. So what is the big deal?

« Reply #188 on: October 12, 2015, 15:12 »
0
You are amazed that 1.5% of world's population owns 42% of the guns but you are not amazed that the same people with 42% of the guns does not account for 42% of gun murders?


I would suspect that most places in the world that have enormous rates of gun murders are also in the middle of some sort of civil war or are battling some form of organized terrorism. Unfortunately for them.

Fortunately for those of us who live in the US, we are not in the middle of a civil war, yet we *do* have a tremendous number of murders by gun each year.

How do you explain that in a nation supposedly at peace?


Culture, society, racial issues, inequality, poverty, drugs.
Lots of factors influence this much more than "SO MANY GUNS!!!".



Thank you for adding rational dialog to the discussion Fujiko, Thank you for bringing up some excellent points throughout this thread and trying to stick to facts. With all sides skewing information it is difficult to determine where reality lies.

I think you are spot on that the problems are social, there are many problems that contribute to the issue and you mentioned a few.

Someone mentioned earlier in the discussion that Americans gun ownership has gone down, yet America violence in the schools has escalated to historic rates. Americas value system has changed in recent years and you can see this reflected in its TV programming and cultural norms. How can America expect it's youth to have good values and mental health when they limit access to mental health care and provide them with Television programming like Hannibal, Breaking Bad etc. 

If we want to reduce violence in society we need to address the social issues you mentioned and more. As it stands we are talking about using bandaid measures to treat large societal cancers. The wounds are so large the bandaid measures will not squelch the bleeding.

No idea how accurate the following information is, however this is the type of information needed to start the healing process. That and dedicated funds and motivated citizens resolved to solve the numerous social issues that propagate violence.

63% Of Mass Shootings carried out by mentally ill shooters
http://tinyurl.com/dxx6s9b

Psychiatric hospital bed shortage by state
http://tinyurl.com/p5ze46y

« Reply #189 on: October 12, 2015, 15:57 »
+6
'63% Of Mass Shootings carried out by mentally ill shooters'

Maybe its time to make sure they cant by a gun at the candy shop then. Why not take both measures instead of one? Treat patients, stop selling guns.

« Reply #190 on: October 12, 2015, 20:38 »
+1
'63% Of Mass Shootings carried out by mentally ill shooters'

Maybe its time to make sure they cant by a gun at the candy shop then. Why not take both measures instead of one? Treat patients, stop selling guns.

+100

« Reply #191 on: October 12, 2015, 21:25 »
0
Does having guns in the White House with the president make him safer?
Yay! Perfect.  You've  hit nail on the head. Is anyone in the White House allowed guns other than the people guarding the president? Why do you think that is? Wouldn't  he be safer if everyone was armed? Well obviously not. It sounds rediculous. If it's good enough for the president, why not your children (as you are fond of saying)

I you agree to pay for some armed Secret Service agents to guard my house, I will happily give up my guns.

« Reply #192 on: October 12, 2015, 23:08 »
+1
'63% Of Mass Shootings carried out by mentally ill shooters'

Maybe its time to make sure they cant by a gun at the candy shop then. Why not take both measures instead of one? Treat patients, stop selling guns.

If only it were as simple as taking one or two measures. The problems that contribute to violence are numerous and expansive. America needs to be committed to making large and numerous changes.

For instance - how many people in the US, do you think there are, who are mentally ill and have never been diagnosed and never will be diagnosed? Even if they are identified and prevented from buying weapons, what leads you to believe they can not find other methods; such as the homemade bombs used in Boston or in Oklahoma City by timothy mcvey; who built a bomb that robbed 168 people of their lives and injured over 500 people!

I am not against preventing mentally ill people from buying guns, however I do not believe it will make much impact towards reducing violence and deaths. America has many social issues to tackle if they wish to turn back the clock on violence.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 10:36 by gbalex »

« Reply #193 on: October 13, 2015, 01:37 »
+6
Does having guns in the White House with the president make him safer?
Yay! Perfect.  You've  hit nail on the head. Is anyone in the White House allowed guns other than the people guarding the president? Why do you think that is? Wouldn't  he be safer if everyone was armed? Well obviously not. It sounds rediculous. If it's good enough for the president, why not your children (as you are fond of saying)

I you agree to pay for some armed Secret Service agents to guard my house, I will happily give up my guns.

I can't really imagine what it's like to live somewhere where those are the only two options that would make you feel safe in your own home.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 08:36 by john_woodcock »

fujiko

« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2015, 03:43 »
+3
'63% Of Mass Shootings carried out by mentally ill shooters'

Maybe its time to make sure they cant by a gun at the candy shop then. Why not take both measures instead of one? Treat patients, stop selling guns.

I think treating patients will do more to prevent guns deaths than stop selling guns.
In fact, as many people love to compare the US to other industrialized countries and blame guns as the problem, why not compare to those same industrialized countries and blame healthcare? Why is US so proud of having the most dysfunctional healthcare of all industrialized countries? The worst protection for jobless workers?
There are so many ways to go broke on the US that are prevented in the other industrialized countries.
Solving that would do more for the general well-being of the US than anything else, but instead the governments of the industrialized countries want to copy the dysfunctional US system, now that's something I fear and makes me feel less safe.

« Reply #195 on: October 13, 2015, 04:06 »
0
. never mind
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 04:27 by Justanotherphotographer »

« Reply #196 on: October 13, 2015, 08:01 »
+7
The evidence is clear; gun owners just don't want to see it. Half a million guns are stolen from private owners in the U.S. every year. That's where "criminals" get them.

So there is a good chance you could be maimed or killed by the very weapon you bought to protect yourself in the first place.

My final thought on this matter: If you require access to and believe you may have to use a lethal weapon to protect your kin or your personal freedoms, then the belief you are living in a free country is illusory.

Shelma1

« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2015, 10:10 »
+3
The evidence is clear; gun owners just don't want to see it. Half a million guns are stolen from private owners in the U.S. every year. That's where "criminals" get them.

So there is a good chance you could be maimed or killed by the very weapon you bought to protect yourself in the first place.

My final thought on this matter: If you require access to and believe you may have to use a lethal weapon to protect your kin or your personal freedoms, then the belief you are living in a free country is illusory.

Having a gun in the home increases risk two ways: It can be stolen and used against you or your neighbors; or it can remain unstolen, and you or someone else you know who has access to the gun can shoot you or someone you know, either accidentally (more toddlers than police officers are killed by guns in the U.S. each year) or purposely (argument, domestic violence, suicide).

« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2015, 10:36 »
+2
You can't fix stupid. Seems like these kids that are going in and shooting up schools are getting the guns right from within their own homes. Their parents buy them, and in their infinite wisdom, don't bother to lock them up so the kids can't get a hold of them. Instead, they seem proud of their arsenal, and instill that pride in their children.

Shelma1

« Reply #199 on: October 13, 2015, 11:20 »
+4
Even worse...these parents seem to know their children are disturbed, and somehow think getting them involved with guns and developing deadly shooting skills will help. Of all things...why guns? How about volunteering in a soup kitchen, or gardening, or drawing, or shooting PICTURES, or any other hobby than a deadly one that encourages them to express their rage by killing innocent victims?


 

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