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Poll

Leave or Remain

British Citizen, Voted Leave and would vote Leave again
13 (17.3%)
British Citizen, Voted Remain and would vote Remain again
11 (14.7%)
British Citizen, Voted Leave but would vote Remain now
0 (0%)
British Citizen, Voted Remain but would vote Leave now
0 (0%)
British Citizen, didn't vote
7 (9.3%)
Not a British Citizen, sympathising with Leave
11 (14.7%)
Not a British Citizen, sympathising with Remain
33 (44%)

Total Members Voted: 72

Author Topic: Brexit  (Read 12487 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2017, 14:08 »
+1
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Its all too apocalyptic there are plenty of people in the UK from non Eu Countries that work here. I doubt very much in the real world there will be a total ban on EU citizens working here.  Theres plenty of goods bought in the UK from countries with whom we have no free trade deal with.   


« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2017, 15:38 »
+4
Seriously, nobody is going to insist on reversing the traffic flow in the UK, it would cause chaos.

Certainly changing something so fundamental from one day to the other would be too hard to accept.
How about a nice, smooth sliding introduction: Start with the cars with even plate numbers first, those with uneven numbers follow a month later...






 ;D

50%

« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2017, 17:45 »
0
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Its all too apocalyptic there are plenty of people in the UK from non Eu Countries that work here. I doubt very much in the real world there will be a total ban on EU citizens working here.  Theres plenty of goods bought in the UK from countries with whom we have no free trade deal with.   
I guess you misunderstood me at least a little bit. My concern is that there will be no deal at all after the two year divorce period.
The reason is simple after triggering article 50 there is no way back, article 50 is only about how to manage the divorce even the tiniest new trading deal will be handled like every new deal is handled with a non-EU member.
There seems to be a misunderstanding in the UK how the EU works, it seems to me many people think that EU can act like one voice but the truth couldn't be further away from that. Even if 26 EU members and the UK can find a deal that all likes if the 27th member even the tiniest one doesn't like it and give it's veto, than there will be no deal at all!
So how likely is it that all 27 remaining members plus the UK will find a deal that everyone agrees on it? Very unlikely!
So after two years the trading relations between the UK and the EU will fall back to WTO terms. Look at companies like Airbus which manufacture different parts of the Airplane all around the EU and UK and sending this parts back and forth how should this work under WTO terms? Totally impossible!
Add to this that the UK can't sign any other trading deal as long it is a member of the EU (and it is a member till the very last day of the two years divorce period)
So at the end of the two yeard divorce period it is very likely that the UK will have not a single trading deal, it's not apocaliptic it's just totally crazy.

« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2017, 02:23 »
0
I just dont think WTO arrangements are as bad as they are painted...we seem to be able to import plenty of Chinese and US goods for example. One of the reasons of voting out is that individual state has a veto....as the world changes the EU is going to find it hard to adjust to.

« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2017, 03:23 »
+1
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Its all too apocalyptic there are plenty of people in the UK from non Eu Countries that work here. I doubt very much in the real world there will be a total ban on EU citizens working here.  Theres plenty of goods bought in the UK from countries with whom we have no free trade deal with.   
I guess you misunderstood me at least a little bit. My concern is that there will be no deal at all after the two year divorce period.
The reason is simple after triggering article 50 there is no way back, article 50 is only about how to manage the divorce even the tiniest new trading deal will be handled like every new deal is handled with a non-EU member.
There seems to be a misunderstanding in the UK how the EU works, it seems to me many people think that EU can act like one voice but the truth couldn't be further away from that. Even if 26 EU members and the UK can find a deal that all likes if the 27th member even the tiniest one doesn't like it and give it's veto, than there will be no deal at all!
So how likely is it that all 27 remaining members plus the UK will find a deal that everyone agrees on it? Very unlikely!
So after two years the trading relations between the UK and the EU will fall back to WTO terms. Look at companies like Airbus which manufacture different parts of the Airplane all around the EU and UK and sending this parts back and forth how should this work under WTO terms? Totally impossible!
Add to this that the UK can't sign any other trading deal as long it is a member of the EU (and it is a member till the very last day of the two years divorce period)
So at the end of the two yeard divorce period it is very likely that the UK will have not a single trading deal, it's not apocaliptic it's just totally crazy.
Meh, kind of. In reality the eu comes up with a law or regulation, the member states like the uk or germany follow it, the member states like Spain or Italy follow it if it's to their advantage or just ignore it and go about their business. The eu can't even dish out a slap on the wrist so it's all a bit of a farce really. If it's in a country's interest to trade with the uk they'll find a way.

« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2017, 04:03 »
+2
Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty?
The countries that sell to the UK (primarily Germany and Holland) are the ones that fund the EU. Those that send migrant labour to Britain are recipients of funds from the EU. The latter may have a vote/veto but they also need to avoid annoying their paymasters. Germany has a habit of getting what it wants regardless of what other EU countries think.

« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2017, 04:37 »
0
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

50%

« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2017, 06:37 »
0
One of the reasons of voting out is that individual state has a veto....as the world changes the EU is going to find it hard to adjust to.
I agree the veto is terrible but it should be reformed and not the reason to vote out

50%

« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2017, 06:56 »
+1
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?
There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.

« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2017, 07:03 »
0
Seriously, nobody is going to insist on reversing the traffic flow in the UK, it would cause chaos.

Certainly changing something so fundamental from one day to the other would be too hard to accept.
How about a nice, smooth sliding introduction: Start with the cars with even plate numbers first, those with uneven numbers follow a month later...

 ;D

Yes surely it is better (if it will happen) to change it gradually, for example for the first week all the people with the names beginning with A, B, C and D will drive on the right while others will continue to drive on the left

 ;D
« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 07:05 by Chichikov »

« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2017, 07:03 »
0
One of the reasons of voting out is that individual state has a veto....as the world changes the EU is going to find it hard to adjust to.
I agree the veto is terrible but it should be reformed and not the reason to vote out
ONE of the reasons

« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2017, 08:25 »
0
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/

50%

« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2017, 09:09 »
0
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

« Reply #63 on: March 26, 2017, 17:19 »
0
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't agree with that.  That doesn't seem to be what the article is saying at all.

50%

« Reply #64 on: March 27, 2017, 01:19 »
+1
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't agree with that.  That doesn't seem to be what the article is saying at all.

Actually yes the article clearly shows how business taxes decreased multiple times in the last decades (globally) while VAT for example in the UK doubled.
This is what Wikipedia says about VAT: Opponents of VAT claim VAT is regressive and is paid by all consumers whether they be rich or poor, young or old.[9] The poorest also spend a higher proportion of their disposable income on VAT than richest.[7] An Office for National Statistics report showed that in 2009/10 the poorest 20% spent 8.7% of their gross income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 4.0% of their gross income on VAT.[51] Similarly, the poorest 20% spent 9.7% of their disposable income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 5.2% of their disposable income on VAT

« Reply #65 on: March 27, 2017, 03:49 »
0
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't agree with that.  That doesn't seem to be what the article is saying at all.

Actually yes the article clearly shows how business taxes decreased multiple times in the last decades (globally) while VAT for example in the UK doubled.
This is what Wikipedia says about VAT: Opponents of VAT claim VAT is regressive and is paid by all consumers whether they be rich or poor, young or old.[9] The poorest also spend a higher proportion of their disposable income on VAT than richest.[7] An Office for National Statistics report showed that in 2009/10 the poorest 20% spent 8.7% of their gross income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 4.0% of their gross income on VAT.[51] Similarly, the poorest 20% spent 9.7% of their disposable income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 5.2% of their disposable income on VAT
I don't like VAT but that's really a different argument.  There's no mention of VAT in the article.  While VAT has gone up in the UK, income tax has come down.  There's no income tax below 11,000 now in the UK, that has to be a positive for the low earners?  The overall tax burden is complicated, governments like to hide tax as much as possible but I don't see that individual tax has gone up as much as corporation tax has been cut?

50%

« Reply #66 on: March 27, 2017, 05:22 »
+2
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this.
Yes governments like to hide individual taxes and they are quite good in this regard :)
But if business taxes will reduced in the UK I would make any bet that individual (hidden) taxes will go up, costs of living will go up too due to tariffs though. Brexit will have only a few winners and this will be not the normal people that voted for it.

« Reply #67 on: March 27, 2017, 07:53 »
0
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this...

Is this correct? I though VAT could only be offset against VAT paid by the business on its expenditure, not deducted at 100%.

I know there has been an argument for doing away with corporation tax all together and including it in VAT as it avoids corporations going offshore. VAT is paid where the goods are sold regardless. I guess if they decided to do this they would have to rethink the offsetting as companies would just come of with new dodges by inflating VAT paid on expenditure.

50%

« Reply #68 on: March 27, 2017, 08:33 »
0
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this...

Is this correct? I though VAT could only be offset against VAT paid by the business on its expenditure, not deducted at 100%.

I know there has been an argument for doing away with corporation tax all together and including it in VAT as it avoids corporations going offshore. VAT is paid where the goods are sold regardless. I guess if they decided to do this they would have to rethink the offsetting as companies would just come of with new dodges by inflating VAT paid on expenditure.
you can offset it but if you pay more VAT than you earn VAT you get it back, at least it is the way here where I live but it should be the same elsewhere.
But in most cases when a business pay more VAT than it earns it is running at a loss so the normal thing is simply to offset it
« Last Edit: March 27, 2017, 08:46 by 50% »

« Reply #69 on: March 27, 2017, 10:11 »
0
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this...

Is this correct? I though VAT could only be offset against VAT paid by the business on its expenditure, not deducted at 100%.

I know there has been an argument for doing away with corporation tax all together and including it in VAT as it avoids corporations going offshore. VAT is paid where the goods are sold regardless. I guess if they decided to do this they would have to rethink the offsetting as companies would just come of with new dodges by inflating VAT paid on expenditure.
you can offset it but if you pay more VAT than you earn VAT you get it back, at least it is the way here where I live but it should be the same elsewhere.
But in most cases when a business pay more VAT than it earns it is running at a loss so the normal thing is simply to offset it
That is the opposite of what you are saying I think. If you are making a profit you are charging more VAT than you are paying out so you can't offset all of the VAT. So the "normal" thing is that not all the VAT will be offset.

« Reply #70 on: March 27, 2017, 10:35 »
+2
One of the reasons why I couldn't bring myself to vote to remain was the new EU VAT rules for businesses supplying digital services to private consumers.

50%

« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2017, 05:28 »
+3
Farewell

All the best!

« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2017, 02:29 »
0
With Britain outside the EU, we wish them good luck with negotiating a trade agreement. Why would we in Europe want to have a trade agreement with the British?

The British industry will find it difficult to sell goods in the EU. The automotive industry and other industries will move to the EU. The EU will have import duties on goods from non-EU countries. Unemployment and porness increases. Civil war is imminent.

Now, if Britain wants to re-enter the EU, it is a new negotiation. Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world and if we don't get a good deal, it will probably become the biggest tax haven.  Any tariffs will have to be offset by lower taxes, I think that's a good incentive for the EU to come up with a beneficial deal for both sides.  I do think some of the car industry will go but as the UK has some of the best robotics, it wont all go and it would be great if we started making our own cars again.  I was against leaving the EU if it reformed but that hasn't happened and I'm not that disappointed to be leaving now.  Going to be fun to see how it works out.

oh yes the fun ist starting. UK in chaos. ;D

« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2017, 03:14 »
+1

oh yes the fun ist starting.

MayDay, MayDay!  :)

« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2017, 03:37 »
0
The Conservatives still have a majority if they make an agreement with the DUP, so perhaps not as chaotic as it might appear?  Theresa May should go though, she might try and carry on but hard to see how she can after such a bad result.  No idea why Labour seem so happy, they lost and it doesn't look like they will be back in power for many years now.  Since when has coming second been a good result?


 

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