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Microstock Photography Forum - General => Off Topic => Topic started by: outoftheblue on March 16, 2017, 09:39

Title: Brexit
Post by: outoftheblue on March 16, 2017, 09:39
Now that Brexit is actually going to happen, how do you feel?

I'm not looking forward to starting a quarrel, just curious how British photographers - and everyone else interested - feel about it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Cider Apple on March 16, 2017, 09:53
I'm pretty happy, especially with the exchange rates (which will only get better) I'm making an extra £300-400 a month more just on the better exchange rates compared to this time last year.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: r2d2 on March 16, 2017, 10:00
I'm pretty happy, especially with the exchange rates (which will only get better) I'm making an extra £300-400 a month more just on the better exchange rates compared to this time last year.

yes and in the future you will pay higher taxes...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: outoftheblue on March 16, 2017, 10:03
I'm pretty happy, especially with the exchange rates (which will only get better) I'm making an extra £300-400 a month more just on the better exchange rates compared to this time last year.

Honest answer, thanks! I'm enjoing this nice bonus too, but it's pretty much the only good thing about Brexit for me, and not enough to make me change my mind.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LDV81 on March 16, 2017, 10:07
For what it's worth, I sympathise with Scottish Independence!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: r2d2 on March 16, 2017, 10:11
For what it's worth, I sympathise with Scottish Independence!

Yes Scottland come to the Union your welcome!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: outoftheblue on March 16, 2017, 10:13
For what it's worth, I sympathise with Scottish Independence!

I didn't last time, but now I would understand this choice.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Cider Apple on March 16, 2017, 10:15
I'm pretty happy, especially with the exchange rates (which will only get better) I'm making an extra £300-400 a month more just on the better exchange rates compared to this time last year.

yes and in the future you will pay higher taxes...

I doubt it, possibly inflation will go up a bit but that goes for everything. Goods from Europe may go up a bit but then goods from the rest of the world we could get cheaper.

We buy more goods from Europe than any other country. We have the biggest European market for German cars, Food, Wine, Furniture. The list goes on and on. Europe needs us more than we need it.

I'm looking forward to having business with the rest of the world without EU legislation.

What on earth is Scotland thinking? If it leaves the Uk it will go bust within 5 years. I also don't think Europe will want it included. It will be another Ireland or Greece.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Cider Apple on March 16, 2017, 10:22
Another good reason is that I think it will make us start producing alot more goods. Instead of being a mainly data driven society (business) it would be nice to start manurfacturing again. Also producing our own foods. I was watching country file last week and the future of agriculture is by farming summer foods indoors without the sun but using high powered LED lights. amazing really.

Futures looking good to me. Were a nation of entrepreneurs and inventors with our business mindeds I think were all going to be OK.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 16, 2017, 10:26
I can see the pros and cons on both sides. I don't think it is as clear cut as if you are nationalist/ isolationist/ right wing you voted for brexit and if you are left wing/ progressive/ liberal you voted for remain.

It is a shame that it has become polarised in that way.

The issue of sovereignty has positives for the left too. For example you would struggle to nationalise the railways while in the EU, trying to sort out pensions has run into problems because of the EU insisting the schemes must be open to competition, the EU would like healthcare to be open to private companies and so on.

The left used to be very anti EU seeing it as a "rich man's club" and in many ways it still is extremely pro big business against publicly running anything. Even if you agree that all the above is positive it serves to demonstrate that our representatives in parliament are in very real ways hamstrung by having rules dictated by the EU.

I think a lot of people on the left see the EU as a defence against an anti labour (small l) Tory government in the UK, but just like in the US where the Federal Government had once provided some protection for working people from oppressive state legislation things can very quickly turn around. If a Labour government got in the UK you could very quickly find yourself in a position where the EU becomes a problem for the left.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: outoftheblue on March 16, 2017, 10:28

What on earth is Scotland thinking? If it leaves the Uk it will go bust within 5 years. I also don't think Europe will want it included. It will be another Ireland or Greece.

What if NI leaves too? The UK will not exist anymore (by definition), and GB will be a little less "great".
That's why I am very worried about the consequences of Brexit for everyone. No one can win.

Another good reason is that I think it will make us start producing alot more goods. Instead of being a mainly data driven society (business) it would be nice to start manurfacturing again.
(...)
Futures looking good to me. Were a nation of entrepreneurs and inventors with our business mindeds I think were all going to be OK.

This would be great, but I fear the opposite: if England turns into a tax haven - Theresa May 'promised' it to Europe quite explicitly in her first speech - business (the worst kind) will thrive here.
So even if future is not looking good to me, I sincerely hope that you are right.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 16, 2017, 10:58
I can see the pros and cons on both sides. I don't think it is as clear cut as if you are nationalist/ isolationist/ right wing you voted for brexit and if you are left wing/ progressive/ liberal you voted for remain.

It is a shame that it has become polarised in that way.

The issue of sovereignty has positives for the left too. For example you would struggle to nationalise the railways while in the EU, trying to sort out pensions has run into problems because of the EU insisting the schemes must be open to competition, the EU would like healthcare to be open to private companies and so on.

The left used to be very anti EU seeing it as a "rich man's club" and in many ways it still is extremely pro big business against publicly running anything. Even if you agree that all the above is positive it serves to demonstrate that our representatives in parliament are in very real ways hamstrung by having rules dictated by the EU.

I think a lot of people on the left see the EU as a defence against an anti labour (small l) Tory government in the UK, but just like in the US where the Federal Government had once provided some protection for working people from oppressive state legislation things can very quickly turn around. If a Labour government got in the UK you could very quickly find yourself in a position where the EU becomes a problem for the left.
A thoughtful post I voted out and am pretty left of centre on most things. Things these days seem to have to be polarised neither position is wholly good or bad and despite all the analysis and forecasting no one really knows what the world will look like in 10 years what really swung it for me was the direction of Travel of the EU which is moving toward a authoritarian/federalist/protectionist position I just don't think it will cut it in the future. If Cameron had renegotiated  real change I would probably have voted remain. Ironically Brexit might mean than the EU bureaucrats will wake up and realise they are dragging Europe in a direction its people don't want.  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/28/jean-claude-juncker-faces-dissent-eu-survival-blueprint/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/28/jean-claude-juncker-faces-dissent-eu-survival-blueprint/)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LDV81 on March 16, 2017, 11:01
We buy more goods from Europe than any other country. We have the biggest European market for German cars, Food, Wine, Furniture. The list goes on and on. Europe needs us more than we need it.


Yeah, and what exactly do you export to the EU? Except financial services, which may be moved to other locations.
"The biggest European market for German cars, food, wine" - yeah, this is one way of looking at it. But the reality is that you simply have a huge trade deficit. You spend more than you earn. Nothing to boast.
And you also have the most wealthy football league, but somehow your teams win hardly anything in Europe.  ;) and I don't even want to mention the word "Iceland"  ;)

UK's national debt is 90% of GDP and it grows at grows at a rate of £5,170 per second: http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ (http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/)

What on earth is Scotland thinking?


Perhaps simply that it sucks to be outvoted by the English on important issues.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 16, 2017, 11:08
We buy more goods from Europe than any other country. We have the biggest European market for German cars, Food, Wine, Furniture. The list goes on and on. Europe needs us more than we need it.


Yeah, and what exactly do you export to the EU? Except financial services, which may be moved to other locations.
"The biggest European market for German cars, food, wine" - yeah, this is one way of looking at it. But the reality is that you simply have a huge trade deficit. Nothing to boast.
And you also have the most wealthy football league, but somehow your teams win hardly anything in Europe.  ;)

UK's national debt is 90% of GDP and it grows at grows at a rate of £5,170 per second: [url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url] ([url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url])

What on earth is Scotland thinking?


Perhaps simply that it sucks to be outvoted by the English on important issues.
So things going well for us in the EU then? Both sides need a good deal no doubt there will be lots of posturing but the world has existed a long time before without the UK being in the EU. Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LDV81 on March 16, 2017, 11:15
Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?

Actually, it is much more than that. But the point is that debt cannot grow forever, and there is a point when a straw breaks the camel's back and the system collapses.
Greece almost or practically collapsed. What is the last straw for each country, you never know, until you get there.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 16, 2017, 11:23
Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?

Actually, it is much more than that. But the point is that debt cannot grow forever, and there is a point when a straw breaks the camel's back and the system collapses.
Greece almost or practically collapsed. What is the last straw for each country, you never know, until you get there.
Maybe but I don't understand the relevance to Brexit?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LDV81 on March 16, 2017, 11:24
Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?

Actually, it is much more than that. But the point is that debt cannot grow forever, and there is a point when a straw breaks the camel's back and the system collapses.
Greece almost or practically collapsed. What is the last straw for each country, you never know, until you get there.
Maybe but I don't understand the relevance to Brexit?

Nevermind.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 16, 2017, 11:56
We buy more goods from Europe than any other country. We have the biggest European market for German cars, Food, Wine, Furniture. The list goes on and on. Europe needs us more than we need it.


Yeah, and what exactly do you export to the EU? Except financial services, which may be moved to other locations.
"The biggest European market for German cars, food, wine" - yeah, this is one way of looking at it. But the reality is that you simply have a huge trade deficit. Nothing to boast.
And you also have the most wealthy football league, but somehow your teams win hardly anything in Europe.  ;)

UK's national debt is 90% of GDP and it grows at grows at a rate of £5,170 per second: [url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url] ([url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url])

What on earth is Scotland thinking?


Perhaps simply that it sucks to be outvoted by the English on important issues.
So things going well for us in the EU then? Both sides need a good deal no doubt there will be lots of posturing but the world has existed a long time before without the UK being in the EU. Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?

I absolutely saw the problems for Greece coming from 1000 miles away.
The Euro is great for, for example, Germany where a single currency makes their products artificially competitive with products from poorer countries stuck on the same currency. It is terrible for the poorer countries. Their currencies would normally devalue making their products more competitive in the market. It is one of the reasons countries like Germany are so keen to get all the poorer countries into onto the Euro. They don't want cheap production on their doorstep.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 16, 2017, 11:57
Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?

Actually, it is much more than that. But the point is that debt cannot grow forever, and there is a point when a straw breaks the camel's back and the system collapses.
Greece almost or practically collapsed. What is the last straw for each country, you never know, until you get there.
I think the point is that Greece was in the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 16, 2017, 12:00
A thoughtful post I voted out and am pretty left of centre on most things. Things these days seem to have to be polarised neither position is wholly good or bad and despite all the analysis and forecasting no one really knows what the world will look like in 10 years what really swung it for me was the direction of Travel of the EU which is moving toward a authoritarian/federalist/protectionist position I just don't think it will cut it in the future. If Cameron had renegotiated  real change I would probably have voted remain. Ironically Brexit might mean than the EU bureaucrats will wake up and realise they are dragging Europe in a direction its people don't want.  [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/28/jean-claude-juncker-faces-dissent-eu-survival-blueprint/[/url] ([url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/28/jean-claude-juncker-faces-dissent-eu-survival-blueprint/[/url])

Thank you. This is the only vote in my life that I have had to stand in the polling booth and still be undecided until the last minute. In the end I had to vote for what I saw as being the right choice for the long term.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 16, 2017, 12:04
We buy more goods from Europe than any other country. We have the biggest European market for German cars, Food, Wine, Furniture. The list goes on and on. Europe needs us more than we need it.


Yeah, and what exactly do you export to the EU? Except financial services, which may be moved to other locations.
"The biggest European market for German cars, food, wine" - yeah, this is one way of looking at it. But the reality is that you simply have a huge trade deficit. Nothing to boast.
And you also have the most wealthy football league, but somehow your teams win hardly anything in Europe.  ;)

UK's national debt is 90% of GDP and it grows at grows at a rate of £5,170 per second: [url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url] ([url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url])

What on earth is Scotland thinking?


Perhaps simply that it sucks to be outvoted by the English on important issues.
So things going well for us in the EU then? Both sides need a good deal no doubt there will be lots of posturing but the world has existed a long time before without the UK being in the EU. Greek debt is 113% of GDP...so what?

I absolutely saw the problems for Greece coming from 1000 miles away.
The Euro is great for, for example, Germany where a single currency makes their products artificially competitive with products from poorer countries stuck on the same currency. It is terrible for the poorer countries. Their currencies would normally devalue making their products more competitive in the market. It is one of the reasons countries like Germany are so keen to get all the poorer countries into onto the Euro. They don't want cheap production on their doorstep.
and lets not forget most of the remain camp wanted us to sign up to the Euro...you wont find many people now that will say that would have been a smart move.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: TG1112 on March 16, 2017, 12:28
With Britain outside the EU, we wish them good luck with negotiating a trade agreement. Why would we in Europe want to have a trade agreement with the British?

The British industry will find it difficult to sell goods in the EU. The automotive industry and other industries will move to the EU. The EU will have import duties on goods from non-EU countries. Unemployment and porness increases. Civil war is imminent.

Now, if Britain wants to re-enter the EU, it is a new negotiation. Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 16, 2017, 12:46
With Britain outside the EU, we wish them good luck with negotiating a trade agreement. Why would we in Europe want to have a trade agreement with the British?

The British industry will find it difficult to sell goods in the EU. The automotive industry and other industries will move to the EU. The EU will have import duties on goods from non-EU countries. Unemployment and porness increases. Civil war is imminent.

Now, if Britain wants to re-enter the EU, it is a new negotiation. Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
Maybe because the UK is a huge market?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 16, 2017, 14:00
With Britain outside the EU, we wish them good luck with negotiating a trade agreement. Why would we in Europe want to have a trade agreement with the British?

The British industry will find it difficult to sell goods in the EU. The automotive industry and other industries will move to the EU. The EU will have import duties on goods from non-EU countries. Unemployment and porness increases. Civil war is imminent.

Now, if Britain wants to re-enter the EU, it is a new negotiation. Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world and if we don't get a good deal, it will probably become the biggest tax haven.  Any tariffs will have to be offset by lower taxes, I think that's a good incentive for the EU to come up with a beneficial deal for both sides.  I do think some of the car industry will go but as the UK has some of the best robotics, it wont all go and it would be great if we started making our own cars again.  I was against leaving the EU if it reformed but that hasn't happened and I'm not that disappointed to be leaving now.  Going to be fun to see how it works out.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Kernowp on March 16, 2017, 17:08
At least we might be able to sell digital images without accounting for 27 different types of VAT.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 16, 2017, 17:47
The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world and if we don't get a good deal, it will probably become the biggest tax haven.  Any tariffs will have to be offset by lower taxes, I think that's a good incentive for the EU to come up with a beneficial deal for both sides.  I do think some of the car industry will go but as the UK has some of the best robotics, it wont all go and it would be great if we started making our own cars again.  I was against leaving the EU if it reformed but that hasn't happened and I'm not that disappointed to be leaving now.  Going to be fun to see how it works out.
what makes you think the EU doesn't want a good deal for the UK? All members wanted and want a good deal for the UK of course they have a good maybe selfish interest in keeping good (trade) relations with the UK. What it makes complicated is the behaviour of the leading politicians in the UK, I'm pretty sure there will be no deal at all in the end this would be bad for all but the UK can only blame itself.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 16, 2017, 18:45
The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world and if we don't get a good deal, it will probably become the biggest tax haven.  Any tariffs will have to be offset by lower taxes, I think that's a good incentive for the EU to come up with a beneficial deal for both sides.  I do think some of the car industry will go but as the UK has some of the best robotics, it wont all go and it would be great if we started making our own cars again.  I was against leaving the EU if it reformed but that hasn't happened and I'm not that disappointed to be leaving now.  Going to be fun to see how it works out.
what makes you think the EU doesn't want a good deal for the UK? All members wanted and want a good deal for the UK of course they have a good maybe selfish interest in keeping good (trade) relations with the UK. What it makes complicated is the behaviour of the leading politicians in the UK, I'm pretty sure there will be no deal at all in the end this would be bad for all but the UK can only blame itself.
I certainly agree that at the moment the UK politicians are not looking very competent but I think their paymasters in big business will knock them into shape....theres too much money involved on both sides of the channel to allow politicians to play games.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 16, 2017, 18:56
The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world and if we don't get a good deal, it will probably become the biggest tax haven.  Any tariffs will have to be offset by lower taxes, I think that's a good incentive for the EU to come up with a beneficial deal for both sides.  I do think some of the car industry will go but as the UK has some of the best robotics, it wont all go and it would be great if we started making our own cars again.  I was against leaving the EU if it reformed but that hasn't happened and I'm not that disappointed to be leaving now.  Going to be fun to see how it works out.
what makes you think the EU doesn't want a good deal for the UK? All members wanted and want a good deal for the UK of course they have a good maybe selfish interest in keeping good (trade) relations with the UK. What it makes complicated is the behaviour of the leading politicians in the UK, I'm pretty sure there will be no deal at all in the end this would be bad for all but the UK can only blame itself.
I disagree.  The EU needs reform.  Complete freedom of movement isn't working because millions of people will move from the poorer countries to the more wealthy ones.  If there had been a sensible limit in place, there's no way the UK would of voted to leave.  So the EU politicians have to take some of the responsibility.  A very small compromise would of been enough to keep the UK in the EU.  I don't like our UK politicians and I agree that they don't behave well but the same could be said about many EU politicians.  The pathetic posturing comes from both sides.  They will probably have to make some kind of deal because both sides can't afford not to.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SpaceStockFootage on March 17, 2017, 03:41
Complete freedom of movement isn't working because millions of people will move from the poorer countries to the more wealthy ones. 

A) The average GDP per person in Latvia (for example) is 2.6 times less than the UK. The average GDP per person in Luxembourg is 2.6 times more than the UK. So how come there are only 6,000 Brits in Luxembourg? I thought millions of people from the poor countries would be moving to the wealthier ones?

B) Maybe they should erect a wall around London, so people won't move from the poorer counties to the more wealthy ones? Or is that ok, as they're not pesky foreigners?

C) And? What if they do?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 17, 2017, 04:33
Complete freedom of movement isn't working because millions of people will move from the poorer countries to the more wealthy ones. 

A) The average GDP per person in Latvia (for example) is 2.6 times less than the UK. The average GDP per person in Luxembourg is 2.6 times more than the UK. So how come there are only 6,000 Brits in Luxembourg? I thought millions of people from the poor countries would be moving to the wealthier ones?

B) Maybe they should erect a wall around London, so people won't move from the poorer counties to the more wealthy ones? Or is that ok, as they're not pesky foreigners?

C) And? What if they do?
Nearly every country in the world has immigration laws the argument is about who sets them and in whose interests.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 17, 2017, 04:41
Complete freedom of movement isn't working because millions of people will move from the poorer countries to the more wealthy ones. 

A) The average GDP per person in Latvia (for example) is 2.6 times less than the UK. The average GDP per person in Luxembourg is 2.6 times more than the UK. So how come there are only 6,000 Brits in Luxembourg? I thought millions of people from the poor countries would be moving to the wealthier ones?

B) Maybe they should erect a wall around London, so people won't move from the poorer counties to the more wealthy ones? Or is that ok, as they're not pesky foreigners?

C) And? What if they do?

Sorry this level of debate really doesn't help. You are obviously a very smart guy so why throw out such misleading stats?

It is clearly true that there is a exodus from poorer countries to wealthy ones. Looking at the the relationship of just the three countries you chose. Unemployment levels in Britain are under 5%, Luxembourg over 6% Latvia over 10% (setting aside that Luxembourg only has half a million people in it so is more of a tiny city state). Latvia has seen a mass exodus which has almost halved their population since 1990, and still has almost twice the unemployment rate of the UK. The ones who are losing out most aren't the UK and Luxembourg who are absolutely draining all the youth and talent from the poor countries. It is the poor countries themselves. Read up on what has happened to Latvia since their workers could easily relocate to other countries.

Both Luxembourg and the UK are very wealthy countries who have benefited off the back of forcing poor countries like Latvia onto the Euro making them unable to compete and by skimming off their best and brightest. The EU has been absolutely parasitic on the working poor of the poorest nations in the block. Look at what they have done to Greece. The UK hardly bothers training their own doctors anymore. They let poor countries like Hungary fork out to train doctors then steals them away to better paying jobs in the UK. It is bad for UK nationals who want to be doctors, but 1000 times worse for the countries being used and abused by the rich nations of Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 17, 2017, 04:55
I think leaving the EU will be good for the working class of the UK in long run. The economy is hugely over reliant on financial services in London leaving behind masses of the working poor in the North of the country in particular.

A devalued currency will help bring back some much needed balance in terms of increasing exports. House prices should devalue somewhat too allowing poorer people onto the housing ladder.

I am not super interested in the overall value of the economy if most of the added value is in the already bloated pockets financial industry and not finding its way down to the majority of the population.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 17, 2017, 05:28
Complete freedom of movement isn't working because millions of people will move from the poorer countries to the more wealthy ones. 

A) The average GDP per person in Latvia (for example) is 2.6 times less than the UK. The average GDP per person in Luxembourg is 2.6 times more than the UK. So how come there are only 6,000 Brits in Luxembourg? I thought millions of people from the poor countries would be moving to the wealthier ones?

B) Maybe they should erect a wall around London, so people won't move from the poorer counties to the more wealthy ones? Or is that ok, as they're not pesky foreigners?

C) And? What if they do?
Luxembourg is a well known place for businesses to use to reduce the amount of tax they pay.  The population is low because the cost of living is high. "Cost of living in Luxembourg is 14.19% higher than in United Kingdom (aggregate data for all cities, rent is not taken into account). Rent in Luxembourg is 49.33% higher than in United Kingdom (average data for all cities)." https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Luxembourg (https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Luxembourg)
So obviously most people from less wealthy countries with a very low cost of living are going to find it impossible to afford to live in Luxembourg.

I'm not against the movement of people from one country to another, I just don't think it should be limitless.  What if 400 million people all decided to go and live in Luxembourg?  Do you think that would be sensible?  That's not going to happen but millions of people are moving across Europe every year.  That obviously means the countries they are moving to need to spend more on things like housing, schools and the health services but governments aren't investing enough in to those.  It also causes problems in the countries they leave, they have a much smaller work force, their GDP goes down, they can't pay their debts and have to borrow more.  Immigration is a good thing but having no limits isn't sensible.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Red Dove on March 17, 2017, 05:57
Voted remain and would do so again.

I've no doubt the British people will make the best of it - but there are tough times ahead both for the economy and society as a whole.

Would be better if we had a fearsome and efficient political opposition to counter extremes -  but at present the UK Labour party is headed up by a beard.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: outoftheblue on March 17, 2017, 08:43
Voted remain and would do so again.

I've no doubt the British people will make the best of it - but there are tough times ahead both for the economy and society as a whole.

Would be better if we had a fearsome and efficient political opposition to counter extremes -  but at present the UK Labour party is headed up by a beard.

I agree, and find the lack of a real opposition by the Labour particularly disturbing.

Especially since in my view the whole Brexit thing started with a miscalculation by Mr Cameron, trying to gain more power within his own party with a Remain win. Why Mr Corbin is voting - and forcing MPs to vote - for Brexit is beyond me.

But it's not the only thing that I can't understand.
How can they call 52%-48% in a consultative only referendum a "very clear result", when most other countries require a qualified majority, well above 50%, for such important decisions?
How can they say they are delivering on the will of the British people when a small majority won by voting on very uncertain terms?
How can MPs say they are respecting the vote when most are voting against their own constituency? (by the way, they are not tied, and should vote for what they believe in)
Why don't they allow us to vote again once the real terms are clear? That would be the will of the British people.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Cider Apple on March 17, 2017, 09:17
Voting again sounds great if you were in the remain camp. The thing is 52% compared to 48% is a huge majority. Although it doesn't look it its close to 1,500,000 people. That's huge.

You can't make these things the best of 3. We had plenty of time to make our decision. we made it, there will always be happy people but also sad.

As a nation I think there is a lot of afraid people. The uncertainty of it all. We need to band together now, get the job done and move on.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: outoftheblue on March 17, 2017, 09:37
Why not? Voting again should sound great for the leave camp too, if you are sure that the majority is (still) real.

By the way I said "again" but the word is a bit misleading: I don't mean repeating the referendum until we win, I mean voting on the final terms which is a totally different thing*.

And I would like a legally binding referendum this time, not an advisory one.
Once all the terms of the deal with the EU and the rest of the world are perfectly clear.

I wouldn't dare speak again if leave wins again.

*Note that I don't like referendums. I believe elected MPs should decide what they think is best for our country. This poll forced them to vote against their own will. They are afraid to lose the next general elections. And the Labour (my party) will lose, despite submitting to the "will of the people". But since all started with an advisory poll, let's close with a binding one.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 17, 2017, 09:50
If there was another referendum and stay narrowly won, Nigel Farage and UKIP would be back.  They would want a 3rd referendum.  I really think it's best to see what it will be like outside the EU.  If it's a disaster, at least the far right will be silenced and we can rejoin, hopefully with a bit more enthusiasm.  If it works out well, then we have got rid of one tier of politicians ruling over us and I don't think that's a bad thing.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 17, 2017, 10:24
The lack of a proper opposition is a worry ...currently the job seems to be being done by Conservative backbenchers...I'm really hoping May does call a general election...in the current climate she would get in with a huge majority...think she is too cautious though.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 17, 2017, 11:55
...Why don't they allow us to vote again once the real terms are clear?...

I don't think the terms will ever be clear. The UK is going to be out in the open market negotiating deals with countries on a case by case basis and they will change constantly. Even the terms with the EU could change in a few years depending on what other members do and who else may exist. The vote would have to be, I'm sorry to say, on the principles of sovereignty again. In a way uncertainty is what was voted for in the first place and all in all I went for uncertainty and control by the electorate over certainty of having laws dictated by people who don't really represent the electorate in the same way as parliament does.

Having said all that I would be all for another binding vote. I don't want out unless it really is the will of people and I'm not sure whether it is or not with all the people who now say they regret their vote and so on. There needs to be a binding vote so politicians can confidently move forward.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: PureArt on March 17, 2017, 11:57
With Britain outside the EU ... Unemployment and porness increases.

Porness? What does it mean? Porn + happiness? ;)

P.S.
Freudian slip, my friend. Freudian slip. If you think about ... too much you'll shows it in your words.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: dpimborough on March 18, 2017, 07:53
We buy more goods from Europe than any other country. We have the biggest European market for German cars, Food, Wine, Furniture. The list goes on and on. Europe needs us more than we need it.


Yeah, and what exactly do you export to the EU? Except financial services, which may be moved to other locations.
"The biggest European market for German cars, food, wine" - yeah, this is one way of looking at it. But the reality is that you simply have a huge trade deficit. You spend more than you earn. Nothing to boast.
And you also have the most wealthy football league, but somehow your teams win hardly anything in Europe.  ;) and I don't even want to mention the word "Iceland"  ;)

UK's national debt is 90% of GDP and it grows at grows at a rate of £5,170 per second: [url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url] ([url]http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/[/url])

What on earth is Scotland thinking?


Perhaps simply that it sucks to be outvoted by the English on important issues.


Scotland population 5.5million

Northern Ireland population 1.8million

England population 53million plus Wales 3.0million total 56million (Wales voted to leave too)

So which part of democracy don't you get? Of course the Scots would be out voted
even if every Scots man woman and child were given a vote and voted to stay in the EU
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: dpimborough on March 18, 2017, 07:58
If there was another referendum and stay narrowly won, Nigel Farage and UKIP would be back.  They would want a 3rd referendum.  I really think it's best to see what it will be like outside the EU.  If it's a disaster, at least the far right will be silenced and we can rejoin, hopefully with a bit more enthusiasm.  If it works out well, then we have got rid of one tier of politicians ruling over us and I don't think that's a bad thing.

Remain would not win a second referendum if they held one today the leave camp would increase the majority according to latest polls.

Reason? The predicted implosion of the UK did not happen.
trade increased
other countries are making positive moves to sign trade deals with the UK

the wretched bullying talk from the EU commision turns people against the EU

Finally asshats like Tony Blair calling for the people to rise up against Brexit really soured things
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 25, 2017, 09:51



Reason? The predicted implosion of the UK did not happen.
trade increased
other countries are making positive moves to sign trade deals with the UK

You do realise that we are still in post-referendum and pre-Brexit days let alone the UK is still a full member of the EU?
If May triggers article 50 coming Wednesday things will change the Pound will fall further in the coming months though the UK is still a full member of the EU but triggering article 50 is like triggering the ejection seat in a jet there is no easy stop from there.
But things will get very ugly in two years and yes most countries in the EU want a fair trading deal with the UK (especially Germany after the UK they have most to loose) but people seem to forget that for every major deal/decision the EU needs unity among their member states. Some (mostly smaller) member states and their people working in the UK have been treated quite badly and they are out for revenge so chances are quite big that there will be no deal at all after the two years period. This will terrible for all but it will be a catastrophy for the UK! So please come back in two years and we can discuss the real post-Brexit times.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 25, 2017, 11:15



Reason? The predicted implosion of the UK did not happen.
trade increased
other countries are making positive moves to sign trade deals with the UK

You do realise that we are still in post-referendum and pre-Brexit days let alone the UK is still a full member of the EU?
If May triggers article 50 coming Wednesday things will change the Pound will fall further in the coming months though the UK is still a full member of the EU but triggering article 50 is like triggering the ejection seat in a jet there is no easy stop from there.
But things will get very ugly in two years and yes most countries in the EU want a fair trading deal with the UK (especially Germany after the UK they have most to loose) but people seem to forget that for every major deal/decision the EU needs unity among their member states. Some (mostly smaller) member states and their people working in the UK have been treated quite badly and they are out for revenge so chances are quite big that there will be no deal at all after the two years period. This will terrible for all but it will be a catastrophy for the UK! So please come back in two years and we can discuss the real post-Brexit times.
You don't think the markets have factored in article 50 its not like no-one is expecting it? The dire forecasts pre the vote said the impact would be immediate nothing about it being OK it the short term no wonder people are doubtful about future forecasts. How were people in smaller countries treated badly?...it seems they  quite like the working conditions here. I would have thought the smaller countries such as Greece would be more concerned about the treatment meted out by the EU to maintain their Euro currency status. I'm sure it won't be easy and I think there will be a deal and life will go on.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on March 25, 2017, 11:37
Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
Bad news for Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, then.
Seriously, nobody is going to insist on reversing the traffic flow in the UK, it would cause chaos.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 25, 2017, 11:39
Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
Bad news for Ireland, Malta and Cyprus, then.
Seriously, nobody is going to insist on reversing the traffic flow in the UK, it would cause chaos.
I assumed the post was either not serious or delusional
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 25, 2017, 13:08
First one is easy:
GBP-USD  1.2470 USD
GBP-EURO 1.1540 EURO

let's meet around Christmas again and see how this developed...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 25, 2017, 13:17
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 25, 2017, 13:25
Third one:
Yes life will go on :D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 25, 2017, 14:08
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Its all too apocalyptic there are plenty of people in the UK from non Eu Countries that work here. I doubt very much in the real world there will be a total ban on EU citizens working here.  Theres plenty of goods bought in the UK from countries with whom we have no free trade deal with.   
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: dirkr on March 25, 2017, 15:38
Seriously, nobody is going to insist on reversing the traffic flow in the UK, it would cause chaos.

Certainly changing something so fundamental from one day to the other would be too hard to accept.
How about a nice, smooth sliding introduction: Start with the cars with even plate numbers first, those with uneven numbers follow a month later...






 ;D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 25, 2017, 17:45
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Its all too apocalyptic there are plenty of people in the UK from non Eu Countries that work here. I doubt very much in the real world there will be a total ban on EU citizens working here.  Theres plenty of goods bought in the UK from countries with whom we have no free trade deal with.   
I guess you misunderstood me at least a little bit. My concern is that there will be no deal at all after the two year divorce period.
The reason is simple after triggering article 50 there is no way back, article 50 is only about how to manage the divorce even the tiniest new trading deal will be handled like every new deal is handled with a non-EU member.
There seems to be a misunderstanding in the UK how the EU works, it seems to me many people think that EU can act like one voice but the truth couldn't be further away from that. Even if 26 EU members and the UK can find a deal that all likes if the 27th member even the tiniest one doesn't like it and give it's veto, than there will be no deal at all!
So how likely is it that all 27 remaining members plus the UK will find a deal that everyone agrees on it? Very unlikely!
So after two years the trading relations between the UK and the EU will fall back to WTO terms. Look at companies like Airbus which manufacture different parts of the Airplane all around the EU and UK and sending this parts back and forth how should this work under WTO terms? Totally impossible!
Add to this that the UK can't sign any other trading deal as long it is a member of the EU (and it is a member till the very last day of the two years divorce period)
So at the end of the two yeard divorce period it is very likely that the UK will have not a single trading deal, it's not apocaliptic it's just totally crazy.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 26, 2017, 02:23
I just dont think WTO arrangements are as bad as they are painted...we seem to be able to import plenty of Chinese and US goods for example. One of the reasons of voting out is that individual state has a veto....as the world changes the EU is going to find it hard to adjust to.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 26, 2017, 03:23
Second one:
Okay let's make it the other way round, I hear the argument the EU can't afford to have no trade deal with the UK because they wanna continue to sell their wine, their cheese and their Mercedes and Audis etc to the UK for sure this is true, but not all EU countries produce this items and trade with them. Instead of trading goods with the UK they send their people to work there. Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty? Against to popular (British) belief the EU is very democratic and the Veto of this countries will count in this case there will no deal at all.
Its all too apocalyptic there are plenty of people in the UK from non Eu Countries that work here. I doubt very much in the real world there will be a total ban on EU citizens working here.  Theres plenty of goods bought in the UK from countries with whom we have no free trade deal with.   
I guess you misunderstood me at least a little bit. My concern is that there will be no deal at all after the two year divorce period.
The reason is simple after triggering article 50 there is no way back, article 50 is only about how to manage the divorce even the tiniest new trading deal will be handled like every new deal is handled with a non-EU member.
There seems to be a misunderstanding in the UK how the EU works, it seems to me many people think that EU can act like one voice but the truth couldn't be further away from that. Even if 26 EU members and the UK can find a deal that all likes if the 27th member even the tiniest one doesn't like it and give it's veto, than there will be no deal at all!
So how likely is it that all 27 remaining members plus the UK will find a deal that everyone agrees on it? Very unlikely!
So after two years the trading relations between the UK and the EU will fall back to WTO terms. Look at companies like Airbus which manufacture different parts of the Airplane all around the EU and UK and sending this parts back and forth how should this work under WTO terms? Totally impossible!
Add to this that the UK can't sign any other trading deal as long it is a member of the EU (and it is a member till the very last day of the two years divorce period)
So at the end of the two yeard divorce period it is very likely that the UK will have not a single trading deal, it's not apocaliptic it's just totally crazy.
Meh, kind of. In reality the eu comes up with a law or regulation, the member states like the uk or germany follow it, the member states like Spain or Italy follow it if it's to their advantage or just ignore it and go about their business. The eu can't even dish out a slap on the wrist so it's all a bit of a farce really. If it's in a country's interest to trade with the uk they'll find a way.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on March 26, 2017, 04:03
Why should these countries agree to any future EU-trade deal with the UK then their people are not allowed to work in the UK anymore? You see the difficulty?
The countries that sell to the UK (primarily Germany and Holland) are the ones that fund the EU. Those that send migrant labour to Britain are recipients of funds from the EU. The latter may have a vote/veto but they also need to avoid annoying their paymasters. Germany has a habit of getting what it wants regardless of what other EU countries think.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 26, 2017, 04:37
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 26, 2017, 06:37
One of the reasons of voting out is that individual state has a veto....as the world changes the EU is going to find it hard to adjust to.
I agree the veto is terrible but it should be reformed and not the reason to vote out
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 26, 2017, 06:56
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?
There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Chichikov on March 26, 2017, 07:03
Seriously, nobody is going to insist on reversing the traffic flow in the UK, it would cause chaos.

Certainly changing something so fundamental from one day to the other would be too hard to accept.
How about a nice, smooth sliding introduction: Start with the cars with even plate numbers first, those with uneven numbers follow a month later...

 ;D

Yes surely it is better (if it will happen) to change it gradually, for example for the first week all the people with the names beginning with A, B, C and D will drive on the right while others will continue to drive on the left…

 ;D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on March 26, 2017, 07:03
One of the reasons of voting out is that individual state has a veto....as the world changes the EU is going to find it hard to adjust to.
I agree the veto is terrible but it should be reformed and not the reason to vote out
ONE of the reasons
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 26, 2017, 08:25
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/ (http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 26, 2017, 09:09
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading [url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url] ([url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url])

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 26, 2017, 17:19
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading [url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url] ([url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url])

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't agree with that.  That doesn't seem to be what the article is saying at all.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 27, 2017, 01:19
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading [url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url] ([url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url])

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't agree with that.  That doesn't seem to be what the article is saying at all.

Actually yes the article clearly shows how business taxes decreased multiple times in the last decades (globally) while VAT for example in the UK doubled.
This is what Wikipedia says about VAT: Opponents of VAT claim VAT is regressive and is paid by all consumers whether they be rich or poor, young or old.[9] The poorest also spend a higher proportion of their disposable income on VAT than richest.[7] An Office for National Statistics report showed that in 2009/10 the poorest 20% spent 8.7% of their gross income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 4.0% of their gross income on VAT.[51] Similarly, the poorest 20% spent 9.7% of their disposable income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 5.2% of their disposable income on VAT
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 27, 2017, 03:49
Why would Germany want the UK to have a good deal when that would encourage more countries to leave the EU?  I think this is going to hurt, the tariffs might look small but it will be worse for manufacturers that have to move components from Europe to the UK and back again.  It will be hard to keep all the European car manufacturers in the UK.  Lowering business taxes in the UK is an option but wont the EU do something to counteract that?

There is a general misconception among British citiziens that Germany is the enemy, but Germany was always the closet ally of the UK in the EU and is still so. The UK and Germany are actually the biggest losers of the Brexit vote. Also the EU is not ruled by Germany actually it is a degressive proportionality in the EU smaller states like Malta and Luxembourg have ten times more influence per citizen as bigger states (Germany is the biggest state by citizens in the EU). Easily to research its a fact!
Lowering business taxes is an option and there is nothing the EU can do against it, but it means less money for the state so the state has to compensate by higher taxes for the normal citizen. So Brexit in the end is just another scheme to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, quite tragic that actually the poor voted for Brexit and made it possible.
A lot of people argue the opposite, that lowering business taxes attracts more business and increases tax revenues.  Maybe the UK will find out what really happens.  This is worth reading [url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url] ([url]http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/21345/economics/does-cutting-corporate-tax-rates-increase-revenue/[/url])

Yes interisting read but it actually proofs me right lowering business taxes since the 50s while increasing individual taxes and that globally - make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
I don't agree with that.  That doesn't seem to be what the article is saying at all.

Actually yes the article clearly shows how business taxes decreased multiple times in the last decades (globally) while VAT for example in the UK doubled.
This is what Wikipedia says about VAT: Opponents of VAT claim VAT is regressive and is paid by all consumers whether they be rich or poor, young or old.[9] The poorest also spend a higher proportion of their disposable income on VAT than richest.[7] An Office for National Statistics report showed that in 2009/10 the poorest 20% spent 8.7% of their gross income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 4.0% of their gross income on VAT.[51] Similarly, the poorest 20% spent 9.7% of their disposable income on VAT, whereas the richest 20% spent only 5.2% of their disposable income on VAT
I don't like VAT but that's really a different argument.  There's no mention of VAT in the article.  While VAT has gone up in the UK, income tax has come down.  There's no income tax below £11,000 now in the UK, that has to be a positive for the low earners?  The overall tax burden is complicated, governments like to hide tax as much as possible but I don't see that individual tax has gone up as much as corporation tax has been cut?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 27, 2017, 05:22
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this.
Yes governments like to hide individual taxes and they are quite good in this regard :)
But if business taxes will reduced in the UK I would make any bet that individual (hidden) taxes will go up, costs of living will go up too due to tariffs though. Brexit will have only a few winners and this will be not the normal people that voted for it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 27, 2017, 07:53
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this...

Is this correct? I though VAT could only be offset against VAT paid by the business on its expenditure, not deducted at 100%.

I know there has been an argument for doing away with corporation tax all together and including it in VAT as it avoids corporations going offshore. VAT is paid where the goods are sold regardless. I guess if they decided to do this they would have to rethink the offsetting as companies would just come of with new dodges by inflating VAT paid on expenditure.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 27, 2017, 08:33
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this...

Is this correct? I though VAT could only be offset against VAT paid by the business on its expenditure, not deducted at 100%.

I know there has been an argument for doing away with corporation tax all together and including it in VAT as it avoids corporations going offshore. VAT is paid where the goods are sold regardless. I guess if they decided to do this they would have to rethink the offsetting as companies would just come of with new dodges by inflating VAT paid on expenditure.
you can offset it but if you pay more VAT than you earn VAT you get it back, at least it is the way here where I live but it should be the same elsewhere.
But in most cases when a business pay more VAT than it earns it is running at a loss so the normal thing is simply to offset it
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on March 27, 2017, 10:11
There is no mention of VAT in the article but the fact remains that VAT already doubled this is quite something, and VAT is only paid by the people every single business can deduct VAT to 100% I'm sure you know this...

Is this correct? I though VAT could only be offset against VAT paid by the business on its expenditure, not deducted at 100%.

I know there has been an argument for doing away with corporation tax all together and including it in VAT as it avoids corporations going offshore. VAT is paid where the goods are sold regardless. I guess if they decided to do this they would have to rethink the offsetting as companies would just come of with new dodges by inflating VAT paid on expenditure.
you can offset it but if you pay more VAT than you earn VAT you get it back, at least it is the way here where I live but it should be the same elsewhere.
But in most cases when a business pay more VAT than it earns it is running at a loss so the normal thing is simply to offset it
That is the opposite of what you are saying I think. If you are making a profit you are charging more VAT than you are paying out so you can't offset all of the VAT. So the "normal" thing is that not all the VAT will be offset.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on March 27, 2017, 10:35
One of the reasons why I couldn't bring myself to vote to remain was the new EU VAT rules for businesses supplying digital services to private consumers.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 50% on March 29, 2017, 05:28
Farewell

All the best!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: r2d2 on June 09, 2017, 02:29
With Britain outside the EU, we wish them good luck with negotiating a trade agreement. Why would we in Europe want to have a trade agreement with the British?

The British industry will find it difficult to sell goods in the EU. The automotive industry and other industries will move to the EU. The EU will have import duties on goods from non-EU countries. Unemployment and porness increases. Civil war is imminent.

Now, if Britain wants to re-enter the EU, it is a new negotiation. Two requirements that it will not be granted an exemption are:

- Introduction of right-hand traffic
- Introduction of the same time zone as France and most of Europe uses, i.e., CET, which is GMT + 1
The UK is the 5th biggest economy in the world and if we don't get a good deal, it will probably become the biggest tax haven.  Any tariffs will have to be offset by lower taxes, I think that's a good incentive for the EU to come up with a beneficial deal for both sides.  I do think some of the car industry will go but as the UK has some of the best robotics, it wont all go and it would be great if we started making our own cars again.  I was against leaving the EU if it reformed but that hasn't happened and I'm not that disappointed to be leaving now.  Going to be fun to see how it works out.

oh yes the fun ist starting. UK in chaos. ;D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: LDV81 on June 09, 2017, 03:14

oh yes the fun ist starting.

MayDay, MayDay!  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on June 09, 2017, 03:37
The Conservatives still have a majority if they make an agreement with the DUP, so perhaps not as chaotic as it might appear?  Theresa May should go though, she might try and carry on but hard to see how she can after such a bad result.  No idea why Labour seem so happy, they lost and it doesn't look like they will be back in power for many years now.  Since when has coming second been a good result?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: r2d2 on June 09, 2017, 04:02

oh yes the fun ist starting.

MayDay, MayDay!  :)

or UK after May! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on June 09, 2017, 05:35
The Conservatives still have a majority if they make an agreement with the DUP, so perhaps not as chaotic as it might appear?  Theresa May should go though, she might try and carry on but hard to see how she can after such a bad result.  No idea why Labour seem so happy, they lost and it doesn't look like they will be back in power for many years now.  Since when has coming second been a good result?
Its relative May went into the election thinking Labour would be destroyed..she has managed to revitalise Labour and now Labour MPs will fall in behind Corbyn as they know where their bread is buttered. Its unlikely the Government will last more than a year or two. Her calling of an Election and a dismal campaign  has completely switched round political fortunes. When you consider where Labour were in the polls at the start of campaigning no wonder they are pleased!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: sharpshot on June 09, 2017, 08:51
I didn't think the Conservative-Liberal coalition would last but they legislated the fixed-term parliaments act and that makes it difficult to get rid of a government.  It might all go wrong when they remove Theresa May but MP's don't like losing their jobs, so I think we could be stuck with this for 5 years.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pauws99 on June 09, 2017, 09:04
I didn't think the Conservative-Liberal coalition would last but they legislated the fixed-term parliaments act and that makes it difficult to get rid of a government.  It might all go wrong when they remove Theresa May but MP's don't like losing their jobs, so I think we could be stuck with this for 5 years.
I would be surprised...but then again the political world is pretty unpredictable these days. I'm not sure the 5 year rule is really a factor...its hard for mps to be seen as hiding from the electorate as Ms May has proved ;-). The next few weeks will prove interesting ;-)