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Author Topic: GO Greece!  (Read 51149 times)

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« Reply #225 on: July 01, 2015, 17:52 »
+3
...But all of this is EU fault mainly. For years they were all smiling, saying "it is ok" "everything is alright". They waited for the last minute to admit that there was a huge problem with the countries debts, with the help of and protecting some major banks and other financial institutions.
Not just the EU, look at the debt in other countries like the US and Japan.  They have much bigger debts than Greece but have got away with it so far, probably because they have their own currency.

Detroit uses the US$ and this didn't stop them to go bankrupt, Greece style. Porto Rico is now in a similar situation. Some US states are also in a rather dire situation,  because of poor governance, begging for federal aid.
If Drachma can be a magical solution for Greece's structural problems, maybe a "Detroit Dollar" can be a solution for Detroit. :)  I wonder why Detroit didn't think about it? Hmmm...

Drachma will not end Greece's structural problems, but, instead, will give Greeks the illusion of being paid. The inflation will be rampant and this will make the Greeks poorer every day. Poorer than under the strict euro-rules.
What needs to be changed now, when the euro is the measurement unit, must be changed even if a new currency is invented. There is no magical way out.
Perpetuum mobile doesn't exist. Energy cannot be created out of nothing. Similarly, in economy, wealth cannot be created with paper, even if the paper is called Drachma.

A strong currency is like an economical Litmus test: it shows economical mistakes and structural problems. It forces responsible governments to make good investments, stop over-spending and take corrective actions.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 18:40 by Zero Talent »


« Reply #226 on: July 02, 2015, 03:16 »
+5
All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

« Reply #227 on: July 02, 2015, 03:43 »
+2
wow!
1,102,893EUR
raised by 64,355 people in 3 days

https://www.indiegogo.com/greek-bailout-fund.html
Wow cool, hope this takes off!

« Reply #228 on: July 02, 2015, 05:04 »
0

fritz

  • I love Tom and Jerry music

« Reply #229 on: July 02, 2015, 09:22 »
0
All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

Yes, it was much much cheaper than today!

« Reply #230 on: July 02, 2015, 10:41 »
+6
Here is a more accurate graph showing the Greek deficit with a better granularity (monthly levels).
Isn't it obvious how a populist and irresponsible government can mess-up almost 2 years of efforts and sacrifices?

Odysseus tied himself to the mast to resist the sirens calls. Despite a difficult struggle, his ship safely sailed home.
Unfortunately, the modern greeks didn't follow the example of their legendary hero and fell for Tsipras' call.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 17:44 by Zero Talent »

dk

« Reply #231 on: July 02, 2015, 12:01 »
+1
All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!

How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.

« Reply #232 on: July 02, 2015, 14:04 »
+2

How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.

[sarcasm]
Ask the greek government. They seem to think that repaying loans is optional. Maybe they have a solution.
[/sarcasm]

I believe leaving the Euro will be a lot harder for most of the people in Greece than staying in the Eurozone - even if the latter means unpopular reforms in the short run.

Titus Livius

« Reply #233 on: July 02, 2015, 14:58 »
0
Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.

Hahahahaha !

you must be american ...

« Reply #234 on: July 02, 2015, 15:55 »
+2
Quote

Hahahahaha !

you must be american ...

Ha, ha, ha, ha!

Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!


Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 16:20 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #235 on: July 02, 2015, 16:05 »
+2
All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!

How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.
The fridge, tv, computer and video camera probably all come from China, they seem to do OK without being tied to the Euro.

« Reply #236 on: July 02, 2015, 16:06 »
+7
All I know is it used to be a cheap holiday in Greece when they had the Drachma and I presume they were making more from the tourists that went there instead of more expensive places?  So it must make some difference?

But how are greeks going to buy goods from europe with drachmas? We would have to work all summer with people coming for cheap holidays just to buy in return a new fridge, tv, computer and video camera!

How will someone repay a loan he took in euros to invest in a small apartments to rent tourism company when he has to repay in drachmas? Impossible.

It worked for Iceland. When they went bust their currency was tied to the Euro. They had to devalue (to roughly half the original exchange rate) and it certainly caused some pain but ... five years later the economy was back in growth.

Yes, imports become more expensive with a devaluation but then exports become more valuable too. It stimulates the local economy. A cheaper Greece would be much more attractive to foreign investors and therefore would actually have money flowing into the country rather than out of it (as has been the case in Greece for the last few years). Foreign investment in manufacturing, because wages are cheaper, also brings many more jobs. You wouldn't have to import fridges and tv's if they were actually made in Greece instead.

Greece has already had several painful years of austerity however, in contrast to Iceland, they have absolutely nothing to show for it other than a much bigger debt than they had before. By staying in the Euro they are just extending their pain and humiliation (by having policies forced upon them by foreign lenders) seemingly forever.

Titus Livius

« Reply #237 on: July 02, 2015, 16:41 »
+1
Quote

Hahahahaha !

you must be american ...

Ha, ha, ha, ha!

Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!


unlikely, at best an eastern european who moved in the States or UK.

 


« Reply #238 on: July 02, 2015, 17:54 »
+1
Quote

Hahahahaha !

you must be american ...

Ha, ha, ha, ha!

Wrong again! Maybe I'm an open minded russian, you never know!


unlikely
Lol, russians can be open minded, even if you believe it is unlikely ;) Maybe more than you think.

Anya, Sasha, Natasha.

Fell free to continue your guessing game.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2015, 18:01 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #239 on: July 03, 2015, 06:52 »
+1
Please I beg everyone interested to listen to this:

http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/

Fascinating insight into the way the media has spun the crisis and the actual facts. Released today.

Semmick Photo

« Reply #240 on: July 03, 2015, 09:25 »
+1
Varoufakis  is making stuff up at the moment, claiming a deal is almost done between Greece and the EU. Which is a complete lie according to Dijsselbloem.

Typical behaviour, cooking books, telling lies and not taking any responsibility. Is best if Greece continue on their own, step out of the Euro.

Semmick Photo

« Reply #241 on: July 03, 2015, 09:27 »
+1
Please I beg everyone interested to listen to this:

http://www.onthemedia.org/story/on-the-media-2015-07-03/

Fascinating insight into the way the media has spun the crisis and the actual facts. Released today.
Without having listened to it, is it not a fact that Greece needed 230 BILLION to save their butt after cooking their books?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 10:52 by Semmick Photo »

« Reply #242 on: July 03, 2015, 09:36 »
+3
Varoufakis  is making stuff up at the moment, claiming a deal is almost done between Greece and the EU. Which is a complete lie according to Dijsselbloem.

Typical behaviour, cooking books, telling lies and not taking any responsibility. Is best if Greece continue on their own, step out of the Euro.

When you say "typical behaviour". You mean typical Greeks right? because that was a different government?

If your argument is fundamentally a eugenic one and you aren't interested in reading or listening to anything that may dissuade you from it what's the point in discussing it?

I am not going to be able to convince you that some races aren't just inherently superior to others, so just go ahead and keep believing whatever you like.

Something else for you not not to watch, this time about how the IMF works gets interesting about 4 minutes in.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 09:48 by Justanotherphotographer »

« Reply #243 on: July 03, 2015, 10:27 »
+3
The current Greek government has managed to unite all the other 18 eurozone countries against it, I doubt they have ever been so collectively pissed off together.

All these insults towards europe and germany, all the talk of describing all of europe as vultures and vampires, do they really believe the people of europe dont follow twitter or the news? that we cant see how they hate us?

Dont like europe, dont ask other european taxpayers for their hard earned money.

why on earth is it "undemocratic" if people in europe dont want to hand out more loans if they dont see progress, especially going after the rich greeks and all the middle class that took their money out and sent it abroad?

But again, if all their politicians would lead by example, march to the banks and put in the cash money they have been hoarding in their mattress, the greek banks wouldnt need to beg the EU.

You cant "vote" yourself to our money and attacking the people you want money from isnt really a useful strategy anywhere. Imagine applying for a job by hanging up posters around the city how much you despise the company you are applying too and that their boss is a monster.

I have heard for years and years, that all the eu money "never helped the people - we never got anything, nothing - it always just went to the banks". Well, now the banks no longer get loans, maybe slowly the connection will settle in. That "saving the banks" they despise so much, kept the country running and allowed everyone to live their lives.

Now that the time has run out, it will take weeks to start a new negotiation. And any new offer will have to be agreed on by all 18 parliaments, which might take months and will lead to heavy debates in every single country.

But of course if we discuss how to send our tax money and vote on it, we are accused as "undemocratic".

And inspite of it all, here there already are work groups for humantiarian aid, especially for medication to be sent to Greece from Germany. I fully expect if they actually are sent over, that the helpers will have the goods ripped out of their hands and afterwards they get insulted and shouted at. Or will anyone bother to say "Thank you"??

I am just 1/4 greek and dont speak the language, but I am really fed up with the populism and the lies. And like many times before, I will be part of the extended family network sending money, when it becomes necessary.

It will lead to even more people leaving to work abroad, but every time they go back, they are so disappointed that there is no improvement. All the energy put into complaining loudly, could be put into getting things done.

Instead there is all this hot air talk of how much europe owes greece and how without greece we are all nothing.

Irrespective of what people vote for, I think Europe has many countries with very poor people. I hope some of the media spotlight gets focussed back on them. Greece is not the only country going through difficult times.




Semmick Photo

« Reply #244 on: July 03, 2015, 10:40 »
+1
Varoufakis  is making stuff up at the moment, claiming a deal is almost done between Greece and the EU. Which is a complete lie according to Dijsselbloem.

Typical behaviour, cooking books, telling lies and not taking any responsibility. Is best if Greece continue on their own, step out of the Euro.

When you say "typical behaviour". You mean typical Greeks right? because that was a different government?

If your argument is fundamentally a eugenic one and you aren't interested in reading or listening to anything that may dissuade you from it what's the point in discussing it?

I am not going to be able to convince you that some races aren't just inherently superior to others, so just go ahead and keep believing whatever you like.

Something else for you not not to watch, this time about how the IMF works gets interesting about 4 minutes in.
I  am reading plenty and experienced it first hand. That's how I  got my opinion about Greece . Just because you believe otherwise I need to change mine? Isn't that the same you are accusing me of?

« Reply #245 on: July 03, 2015, 10:42 »
+1
Greece is the only country in Europe approaching 30% unemployment and 60% youth unemployment though. That is unheard of outside of a war zone. That is considerably higher than the US at the worst point of the great depression.

I am just trying to point out the epic scale of what is going on in Greece. Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German) living their lives. Not cooking books, not lying, not taking loans, just average people scrapping a living.

ETA, was typing at the same time, my reply was to the post two posts above. Reply to post above; no not what I'm accusing you of.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 10:45 by Justanotherphotographer »

Semmick Photo

« Reply #246 on: July 03, 2015, 10:49 »
+3
Isn't a government representing their people? The people of Greece voted these people into office. Their minister of finance is playing tricks and telling lies just like all the others before him. They've got 230 billion dollar and need 50 billion more. Its time they leave the euro so they can sort out their issues. No need to drag the rest of Europe with them.

« Reply #247 on: July 03, 2015, 11:26 »
+2
Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German)
Those millions of Greeks are responsible for voting irresponsible politicians in power. Bad managers.
Carrying a bucket of water, on your head, for 2km, is hard work, indeed. And it takes a lot of those working hours, you see on the stats. But it is totally ineficient. Not that Greeks don't have running water, you get the point.

If two men, on the same boat, row in opposite directions, both work very hard, indeed, but their boat goes nowhere. They need a good manager to make their hard work efficient.

The government and their populist agenda (buying votes with borrowed money) is responsible for this lack of productivity and chaos the country is in.


Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 11:34 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #248 on: July 03, 2015, 11:42 »
+2
I am just trying to point out the epic scale of what is going on in Greece. Whatever you think about the causes, the fact is that millions of Greek people who are not to blame are suffering the consequences. Most people were just working their jobs (working in fact longer average hours than the average German) living their lives. Not cooking books, not lying, not taking loans, just average people scrapping a living.


nobody doubts that things are bad. Just that that in many countries in the eu, people believe their lives are much worse than they are in greece today. their pensioners get only 200 euros, not over 700. and they also have very high levels of unemployed young people.

but you dont see them going on tv, shouting how horrible europe is, they openly acknowledge, that they need to work hard to fight corruption etc...And why should their money be sent to greece? All 18 countries will have to vote on the next greek bailout and approve it. With the current campaign tsirpas is running, how likely is it that money for greece will be approved?

The current greek government is riding the worst populist anti eu campaign I have seen.  And the decent people in greece voted for them, too, including many unemployed young people.

So of course, many people in other european countries are wondering, why our money should be sent to a country where all the 230 billion euros we already sent are either taken for granted or we are even accused that it was sent to "occupy greece". no european tax payer wants to occupy greece. not even germans.

A countries government is a reflection of the peoples will in a democracy.

So the rest of europe will have to continue to wait until the greek people decide what they want and if they want to stay with us or walk away, or get closer to russia or china etc...nobody can decide that for them.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 11:50 by cobalt »

« Reply #249 on: July 03, 2015, 12:09 »
+1
Quote
So the rest of europe will have to continue to wait until the greek people decide what they want and if they want to stay with us or walk away, or get closer to russia or china etc...nobody can decide that for them.
Meawhile, it looks like some northern Greeks decided to get closer to Bulgaria. Hotels and restaurants began accepting payments in Bulgarian lev (pegged to the euro since quite some time already):

https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129438
« Last Edit: July 03, 2015, 12:24 by Zero Talent »


 

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