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Author Topic: GO Greece!  (Read 48427 times)

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« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2015, 10:07 »
+1
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...
He is not a hero but a poker player who plays a game with other people's money.

You "hero" doesn't even has the guts to make a decision. When EU calls his bluff, he hides behind a referendum.

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.. you think eu bureaucrats are good poker player - oohhh - come on! - be serious - Tsipras will destroy them, he has some life experience - eu bureaucrats, they don t know what life is...
I said that your guy is a gambler who cowardly hides behind a referendum.

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..yes - he is a good poker player - we agree ...


« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2015, 10:12 »
+4
Paul is absolutely correct.  The point here is not so much about the dire situation of the Greek people though.  The point is that the EU, which is supposed to have social justice as a core principle, is applying the jackboot to the necks of the Greeks in order to serve the interests of very wealthy people.

Please borrow me several thousands dollars.

« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2015, 10:15 »
+6

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage



That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.

So many other countries in Europe are really poor

What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?

If something happened that abruptly made 30% of people redundant I doubt you would hear people here blaming "outside" forces all day. Or consider a "conspiracy" that others are intentionally destroying your country? Why would other European countries want to do that?

They would get their act together, blame themselves (overly and constantly, the way the Germans always do) and find a way to pull themselves out by their hairs. If billions of euros were taken out of banks every day, there would immediatly be governement restrictions and capital control. If people dont pay taxes, they go to jail,even if they are superrich. The US follows their citizens all across the globe for their tax money.

You wouldnt allow people to retire in their mid fifities, certainly not when there is a national crisis. Spending by institutions and governements would immediately be lowered.

And very likely a large part of the population would emmigrate like they did after the war, and send money home.

Yes, people would suffer, very badly.

But there is strong community solidarity here and definetly paying taxes is not considered a hobby.

When you are in Greece try to get receipts every time you pay for something. Observe if jobs are handed out to people who are capable or the boss cousin.

Germany has corruption, all countries do, but Greece is a different level. It reminds me of the Middle East, where bribery and corruption are also considered a natural part of society. In my cousins health insurance she is also covered for "little envelopes", i.e. the money you slip the doctors and nurses to get better and timely treatment. They dont even notice how strange this is, it is just part of the culture.

So seriously, what do you want the rest of Europe to do?

Should money just be handed over forever without results?

Is that fair to the other countries? They have to agree on the package, this is not a German decision as I keep hearing from Tsirpas. He has to convince every single country in Europe.

Maybe leaving the euro and getting the drachme back is financially even better, if it makes their tourism industry cheaper and even more attractive.

It is a beautiful country, with lovely people, I have absolutely no doubt that they will pull themselves out of it, once it is clear they have to do it without money from Europe.

Because creative business is something they are really good at.






« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 10:17 by cobalt »

« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2015, 10:16 »
+3
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...


if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.

« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2015, 10:21 »
+3
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...


if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.

...I am very serious - this is a critical moment for the Greek people - a referendum is the right thing...



« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2015, 10:24 »
+7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage



That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.

So many other countries in Europe are really poor

What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?

If you are very young I am sorry but this is funniest (read:stupidest) thing I read here.

Are Cambodia and Vietnam taking their tax money to help Greece or does it goes for Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia and others?

Germans spend their money, Greece is spending others money. No more.

Referendum can be simplified to something like this:

a) we still want to live like drunk millionaire spending poorer people money we haven't earned.

b) We need to settle down, live modestly and spending money we earned.




« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2015, 10:25 »
+1
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...


if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.


...I am very serious - this is a critical moment for the Greek people - a referendum is the right thing...

You and me can do the same thing. Anyone can. We should be Greece presidents. And heroes

« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2015, 10:29 »
0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage



That map is really useful, thank you. I think a copy of it should be printed and sent to every household in Greece before their referendum.

So many other countries in Europe are really poor

What's happened to "Greeks are better off than Germans" here? Greeks are better off than a whole bunch of former Warsaw Pact countries (which Greece was never part of) but are just about the poorest of the previous intake of EU countries. Why not include Vietnam and Cambodia, also previously Communist states? If German wages were slashed by 50% would you be pointing out how much better off Germans are than Estonians or Slovenes and implying that they have nothing to complain about? And if 30% of Germans were thrown out of work and denied unemployment benefit, would you still maintain they were better off than their fellow Europeans?

If you are very young I am sorry but this is funniest (read:stupidest) thing I read here.

Are Cambodia and Vietnam taking their tax money to help Greece or does it goes for Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia and others?

Germans spend their money, Greece is spending others money. No more.

Referendum can be simplified to something like this:

a) we still want to live like drunk millionaire spending poorer people money we haven't earned.

b) We need to settle down, live modestly and spending money we earned.


...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western  propaganda...

« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2015, 10:32 »
0

...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western  propaganda...

Ok. so, explain me please what is going on there?





« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2015, 10:34 »
+1

...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western  propaganda...

Ok. so, explain me please what is going on there?

...revolution against rich...

« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2015, 10:39 »
+7

...maybe you're not young, but you're awfully naive - victim of poor western  propaganda...

Ok. so, explain me please what is going on there?

...revolution against rich...

wrong.

revolution against paying back your dept. Some of that money surely belong to rich/banks, some to people who got their wages cut long time ago and some of their tax money goes to Greece.

you can also lend me some money to show you how that feels :D

« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2015, 10:50 »
+3
I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan.  It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon.  It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way.  Most of us aren't as well off as we might think.  When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.

« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2015, 10:53 »
0
Anyone that thinks debt isn't a problem should look at this for a few hours.
http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2015, 10:53 »
+4

Wage levels don't necessarily reflect poverty. The poverty of trying to live in a flat in Athens, with hire-purchase debts owing on your car, furniture and white goods after losing your job is quite different from the poverty of being in a village, having a donkey, a stream with a stone for the washing, and a vegetable plot with onions, eggplants and tomatoes.

situation in Croatia and many more countries isn't any different? People loosing their jobs daily.

I don't know a single person who cash out his flat or car...

Whose fault is if that person got credit to buy a new car?




« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2015, 10:56 »
+1
Joining the euro is the worst thing that has happened to Greece for a long time, maybe even since the end of the civil war.

Why did Greece even joined? even better question is... why they don't like euro now, but 8 years ago it was all good about euro?



« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2015, 11:05 »
+3
I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan.  It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon.  It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way.  Most of us aren't as well off as we might think.  When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.

This is because people continue to elect those politicians promising unsustainable minimum salary laws, wage increases, social benefits, etc.
When the economy is not strong enough to support the promises, those politicians will borrow or print money.
Greece has debt and more euros are being printed to cover up for those unsustainable expenses (reason for the fallen euro)
Printing euros is nothing else but a hidden tax which affects middle class savings and impacts poor people even more through inflation.
The ones gaining from money printing are always the banks and those close to them since they are the first to put their hands on the new money before the market has adjusted to inflation.

So stop electing irresponsible politicians like this Greek gambler and vote for fiscal responsability.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 12:58 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2015, 11:24 »
+2
suggested for a very long time that the introduction of the euro ... would lead to the next step on European integration, fiscal (tax) union

The currency can only be credible on the markets if there is fiscal union. But fiscal union makes no sense because the economies of such a vast continent will never be properly in sync. The whole point of economic policy is that it needs to be flexible locally (e.g. tax rates, interest rates etc - these are how democratic govts and / or central banks can control the money supply, inflation, stimulus etc).

Since fiscal union is not feasible, the cannot survive in it's current form. Maybe The Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Germany will retain it - with fiscal policy set in Berlin. France has a huge economy but a very different approach to fiscal policy especially govt spending.

The and the idea of closer union has destroyed the goodwill and prosperity which the old Common Market stood for.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 11:35 by bunhill »

dk

« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2015, 11:26 »
+11
I'm Greek and i feel the current government is irresponsible towards greek people who willingly or not made big sacrifices for 5 years and they are irresponsible towards the rest of Europe and european people who trusted us us their hard earned money.

We needed just 1 million in reforms before Tsipras took over and now after 6 months of "negotiations" and delay we need 8 millions in reforms.

« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2015, 11:34 »
+1
I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan.  It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon.  It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way.  Most of us aren't as well off as we might think.  When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.

The main way of creating liquidity (i.e. money supply) is via lending. Lending effectively  increases the amount of money in circulation. It's a genius system which has funded the vast progress enjoyed over the past few hundred years (and also the wars).

« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2015, 11:41 »
+2
This graph tells a lot about the unsustainable living standard in Greece.

« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2015, 11:42 »
+1
...this is a beginning of the end of EU - Tsipras is a historical figure - true hero!...


if you are not joking i would like to say that he would be a hero if he had any courage at least political kind of courage, and he was elected to have some. Greece choose him to do what he is supposed to do now, and what he does, he make referendum to wash his hands of any responsibility.

I wish more countries would hold referendums on important matters. Referendums are banksters and eurocrat's biggest fear. If greeks are smart enough, they will get out of the euro and start walking with their own legs. But yes Greece has itself to blame, that's what happens with left-wing populism.

It's unsustainable for different countries to share the same currency, especially with such disparity between them. The countries lose the ability to control inflation and money supply. Then you start seeing weird patterns, like everyday products costing triple in Spain than in Germany.

EUSSR was a bad idea from the start, except from freedom of movement. That's ruined though now with illegals getting a free pass. Why have visa policies at all if 3rd world muslim people get to live in Europe forever on taxpayer money. I liked Europe, but it's collapse is inevitable. Maybe eastern europeans can watch how western europe is slowly turning into a hellhole and wake up before it's too late.

« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2015, 11:46 »
+1
I never understand how any country can borrow so much money and then ask for more when they can't even pay the interest on the loan.  It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon.  It will be painful for a few years but at the moment most of the world seems to be living in an unsustainable way.  Most of us aren't as well off as we might think.  When debts can't be paid, interest rates will have to go up and everyone that can't pay their mortgage or interest on loans is in for a hard time but at least it will be real, unlike the the world we currently live in.

The main way of creating liquidity (i.e. money supply) is via lending. Lending effectively  increases the amount of money in circulation. It's a genius system which has funded the vast progress enjoyed over the past few hundred years (and also the wars).
And also the reason behind the bubbles and the devastating market crashes. Nothing is for free. Sooner or later the payback time becomes unavoidable.

« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2015, 11:50 »
+1
also the reason behind the bubbles and the devastating market crashes

These are part of the normal economic cycle. A down is a time of low costs and opportunity. Out of down comes up.

« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2015, 11:52 »
0
I wanna hear Greek folks.
Any Greeks on MSG???
Where is gcrook?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 12:04 by KnowYourOnions »

« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2015, 11:52 »
+1
also the reason behind the bubbles and the devastating market crashes

These are part of the normal economic cycle. A down is a time of low costs and opportunity. Out of down comes up.
Actually these are the root cause of the economical cycles, not the other way around. The economical cycles are not created out of thin air.

A broken economy is not an oportunity. This is a huge fallacy.
I wonder if you personally would consider your house destroyed by an earthquake an opportunity.

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« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 12:46 by Zero Talent »


 

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