Author Topic: GO Greece! (Read 84072 times)

sharpshot · « **Reply #475 on:** July 10, 2015, 16:23 »

Quote from: gostwyck on July 09, 2015, 18:57

Quote from: sharpshot on July 09, 2015, 17:30
Quote from: Nikovsk on July 09, 2015, 08:10
Must watch, 4 minute speech by Nigel Farage:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-09/nigel-farage-destroys-eu-group-think-just-4-minutesthere-new-berlin-wall-and-its-cal

He wants to split up Europe but wanted to keep Scotland in the UK. Never quite understood how he can argue for one union so passionately while doing all he can to break up another one. I also don't like how he tolerated so many racists in his party and didn't keep his promise to quit the leadership if he wasn't elected as an MP. He is just like most politicians, a huge ego and no principles.

The union of the UK has been in existence for over 300 years and is democratically approved. In short ... it works. In contrast the UK public only ever voted to join the 'Common Market', a simple trade agreement and that was 40 years ago. Almost all of us would still vote in favour of that. What we don't want or need is the EU dictating 80% of the laws that govern us, unbridled immigration, excessive cost and little democracy or accountability. We're not interested in a federal Europe .. because it won't work ... as is proven by the issues with Greece amongst many others.

Farage did resign as leader immediately after the election (in which he won nearly 4M votes but secured only one seat, more votes in fact than the SNP who won 57 seats in parliament) but was persuaded to 'un-resign' three days later.

But hey ... I'm sure you know all this but feel free to distort it and leave out most of the pertinent facts to suit your own little agenda.

Anyway ... back on the topic of Greece.

You're the one twisting the facts. When someone pledges to resign, they do that, not carry on like he has. Should of known you would be a kipper

Zero Talent · « **Reply #476 on:** July 10, 2015, 22:14 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 10, 2015, 14:37

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 11:22
Free market would be

every possible economic scenario including first and foremost the so called Free Market is doomed to end up into a total monopoly of the richest families owning the whole economy and banking system and by proxy having power toward the politics and the military.

communism, capitalism, hybrids, it's just a matter of time and that's why they all fail following a typical "boom/bust cycle" over time.

failure is usually caused by wars but in fact wars can only happen when the state is no longer able to defend its borders ... chain effect ... rooted in the unsustainability of the economic model itself !

I'll quote someone who explains well why you are wrong:

"If competition is viewed as a dynamic, rivalrous process of entrepreneurship, then the fact that a single producer happens to have the lowest costs at any one point in time is of little or no consequence. The enduring forces of competition — including potential competition — will render free-market monopoly an impossibility.

The theory of natural monopoly is also ahistorical. There is no evidence of the "natural-monopoly" story ever having been carried out — of one producer achieving lower long-run average total costs than everyone else in the industry and thereby establishing a permanent monopoly."
"Specifically, there is no historic precedent of a free-market monopoly (i.e. monopoly not aided by government legislation) which resulted in higher prices to consumers.
The reason is that any attempt by a successful company to use its market share against the preferences of consumers would immediately create an opening for its competitors to increase their market share"

And back to the clasics:
https://youtu.be/tdLBzfFGFQU

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Titus Livius · « **Reply #477 on:** July 11, 2015, 02:09 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 22:14

I'll quote someone who explains well why you are wrong:

"If competition is viewed as a dynamic, rivalrous process of entrepreneurship, then the fact that a single producer happens to have the lowest costs at any one point in time is of little or no consequence. The enduring forces of competition — including potential competition — will render free-market monopoly an impossibility.

The theory of natural monopoly is also ahistorical. There is no evidence of the "natural-monopoly" story ever having been carried out — of one producer achieving lower long-run average total costs than everyone else in the industry and thereby establishing a permanent monopoly."
"Specifically, there is no historic precedent of a free-market monopoly (i.e. monopoly not aided by government legislation) which resulted in higher prices to consumers.
The reason is that any attempt by a successful company to use its market share against the preferences of consumers would immediately create an opening for its competitors to increase their market share"

if this was true how can you explain the long standing duopoly Canon/Nikon in the DSLR market ?

and while we're writing in a stock industry forum, how do you explain the actual "big-4" monopoly in the stock market, which is now maybe a Big-3 scenario as DT is shifting to the Low-Earners underworld ?

talking about DSLR lenses and competition, all we have is Canon/Nikon with just a handful of good lenses made by Sigma/Tamron/Tokina so basically a triad unless you own a Sony/Fuji/Pentax/Leica or you're a Zeiss freak.

as for tripods, lemme see ... Manfrotto, Gitzo (owned by Manfrotto), and what else ?

or filters ... B+W .. Hoya ...and

memory cards ... Sandisk, Crucial, and ..

camera bags ... LowePro, Tamrac, ThinkTank, CaseLogic ... and

cobalt · « **Reply #478 on:** July 11, 2015, 02:46 »

big4 or big 3 is not a monopoly. ebay is closer to a monopoly,and maybe amazon in some countries.

there was a risk that the stockindustry could be dominated by getty/istock for a long time, but right know we have a multi company world and if you include macro agencies,stocksy,blend,stockfood,some more local stock companies (japan,Middle east) and the new smartphone agencies our options are really much,much bigger than before.

our business is very dynamic, maybe with adobe entering the market we will see a shift again, but it all takes time.

-------------

I am happy to see that now in Greece there seems to be a really strong discussions across all factions to stay in the euro and really commit themselves to it.

They have a huge challenge ahead of them. Only 20% of the country has been properly registered, tax collection is what? 10% of what is due every year? There is finally talk they will get their deal with switzerland, which they could have completed ages ago. the legal system is disfunctional, it can take years to get your day in court,which means contracts between companies cannot really be enforced, which lowers productivity. Or just trying to start a simple business can take months, because the necessary paperwork is incredible. In other countries you can register your business in 4h and start working the next day, here in Germany it will take around 2 weeks, maybe a month if you are unlucky, but that´s it. But in Greece it is unbelievably frustrating and the pressure on the private sector that is working so hard to move the country forward is always being held back by all kinds of overbloated goverment regulations that just kill any incentive to be an entrepreneur. It is not surprising everyone wants to have a cushy government job.

I do hope the eu doesn´t just hand over the money like that, but they create a plan with clear goals and only release funds if goals are achieved. The greeks won´t like it, they will feel even more like they are being managed by the eu. But if they want to stay in the euro, they will have to accept it.

Otherwise they can get their drachme back and enjoy all the freedom they want.

They just can´t have it both ways - get the money from other European taxpayers in often much poorer countries and not reform their structures and become competitive.

I think it is also good that the eu is preparing an emergency fund for cyprus, in case things don´t work out.

And that the eu regulations will be changed, so if a country fails to adapt their economy to stand on their own feet/their own income, they have to leave the eurozone. The euro shouldn´t be a transfer union, everybody has to pull their own weight.

They still need to hammer out the details and the agreement then has to be passed by many countries in Europe. I hope Greek TV will show these discussions and votings in other countries, so they get a better feeling how many countries in Europe are involved and that they don´t just have to convince Germany.

It is very disrespectful to all the other member nations, to simply deny them any decision making ability or to insult them by saying they are just colonies of Germany.

Overall, what a waste of time. Tsirpas could have done all this in January and spent the next months actually governing his country to improve their situation.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #479 on:** July 11, 2015, 04:21 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 11, 2015, 02:09

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 10, 2015, 22:14
I'll quote someone who explains well why you are wrong:

"If competition is viewed as a dynamic, rivalrous process of entrepreneurship, then the fact that a single producer happens to have the lowest costs at any one point in time is of little or no consequence. The enduring forces of competition — including potential competition — will render free-market monopoly an impossibility.

The theory of natural monopoly is also ahistorical. There is no evidence of the "natural-monopoly" story ever having been carried out — of one producer achieving lower long-run average total costs than everyone else in the industry and thereby establishing a permanent monopoly."
"Specifically, there is no historic precedent of a free-market monopoly (i.e. monopoly not aided by government legislation) which resulted in higher prices to consumers.
The reason is that any attempt by a successful company to use its market share against the preferences of consumers would immediately create an opening for its competitors to increase their market share"

if this was true how can you explain the long standing duopoly Canon/Nikon in the DSLR market ?

and while we're writing in a stock industry forum, how do you explain the actual "big-4" monopoly in the stock market, which is now maybe a Big-3 scenario as DT is shifting to the Low-Earners underworld ?

talking about DSLR lenses and competition, all we have is Canon/Nikon with just a handful of good lenses made by Sigma/Tamron/Tokina so basically a triad unless you own a Sony/Fuji/Pentax/Leica or you're a Zeiss freak.

as for tripods, lemme see ... Manfrotto, Gitzo (owned by Manfrotto), and what else ?

or filters ... B+W .. Hoya ...and

memory cards ... Sandisk, Crucial, and ..

camera bags ... LowePro, Tamrac, ThinkTank, CaseLogic ... and

Oh my god!

These are not monopolies, my dear friend, but companies in competition with each other, which happen to offer the best price/quality products, these days. You call the Canon-Nikon war, a monopoly?

Besides, nobody forces you to buy Canon nor Nikon. Sony makes great cameras. Maybe even better cameras. You can still buy Pentax, if you want. You can buy Leica, if you feel fancy and want to throw your money away. Why stopping here, use you smartphone camera, for God sake. These things have eaten up a great piece of the Canon/Nikon pie, forcing them to innovate.
Why has their compact camera business virtually dissapeared, if not because Apple has innovated and caught them by surprise?
Why don't you give me the Kodak example? Where is that "Kodak moment"?
Speaking about smartphones, where are those previously universal Nokia phones, my friend? Where are those ugly Ericsson phones?

You forget another simple economical fact: big companies have the opportunity to be efficient through economy of scale and streamlined processes. This is good for consumers! Because they make more efficient use of the capital (until they become too big, too bureaucratic and fall into pieces)
A DSLR could be bloddy expensive, if made manually in a mom and pop shop, if pop takes 1 year, to manually polish your lens. How can mom and pop continously innovate, while polishing that lens?
Or maybe you want a government to start building DSLRs? I'm sure that those DSLRs will be cheaper and much better for consumers than nikon/canon, because governments know better what's good for people!
An idea for your friend, Tsipras! Go Greece! Make us a good DSLR and stick it to those greedy corporate *insult removed*!

I'll not even bother to go into details on the other brands, because this is a total waste of time (fyi, I own 2 Vanguard tripods and a Vanguard backpack

)
You have already proven yourself wrong.

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CatTheCat · « **Reply #480 on:** July 11, 2015, 09:14 »

So Tsakalotos signed the document of the greek measures. The one in the left is that signature, the one in the right is his normal signature.
Why are the last greek finance ministers so childish and unprofessional?
To me, it sounds like they are not going to implement the measures, it is just a paper, they just want the debt restructuration.

And why are they protecting the orthodox church anyway?

cobalt · « **Reply #481 on:** July 11, 2015, 11:06 »

Quote from: CatTheCat on July 11, 2015, 09:14

And why are they protecting the orthodox church anyway?

Probably the church has the best connections? Seriously, with all the trouble the country is in, you would expect the church to come forward themselves.

I am reading a lot that the banks will need to take money from the bank accounts, otherwise they have to close down. What I don´t understand, why can´t the government convince people to bring their cash back? The Greek people removed 60 billion euros from their banks since January, destabilising them completely. So instead of losing 30% of whatever is left on their accounts, why don´t they all work together and save their own banks??

And nearly every feed I follow I see members of the European parliament asking the obvious - after destroying all trust for 6 months,calling Europe criminals and terrorists, how will Tsirpas convince the EU that the papers he submitted mean anything? That they have any intention of going forward with reforming the country?

I still haven´t heard anyone from the Greek government apologizing for all the insults and complete waste of time with their silly games. All they talk about is how much money they want.

And Syriza spent the last 6 months protecting the rich people, but made the poor suffer by destabilizizing their country by ruining the international reputation of Greece.

Varoufakis, although he is already on holiday, only keeps spilling more poison to the press instead of helping his colleguaes in Athens to repair some of the damage he did. But I guess he needs the flames to spike his book sales.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #482 on:** July 11, 2015, 11:25 »

The orthodox church has a strong voice in the Greek society and a strong influence in all elections.
No party had the guts to cut their benefits and all kept on paying the church a "protection tax" or "lobbying fee".

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Titus Livius · « **Reply #483 on:** July 11, 2015, 12:15 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 11, 2015, 04:21

Oh my god!

You call the Canon-Nikon war, a monopoly?

yes, because it's a cartel and they're in league with each other.
thanks god, as you said, there's Sony and other small fries but that's not what i would call a healthy market.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #484 on:** July 11, 2015, 12:32 »

You said it very well: thank God it is NOT a monopoly!
But you always want to have the last word, no matter how absurd your claim is, continously embarrassing yourself.
Not like you care, anyway.

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KnowYourOnions · « **Reply #485 on:** July 19, 2015, 13:50 »

Exclusive: Yanis Varoufakis opens up about his five month battle to save Greece
In his first interview since resigning, Greece's former Finance Minister says the Eurogroup is “completely and utterly” controlled by Germany, Greece was “set up” and last week’s referendum was wasted.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/exclusive-yanis-varoufakis-opens-about-his-five-month-battle-save-greece

cobalt · « **Reply #486 on:** July 19, 2015, 15:56 »

Ah, back to spilling more poison to help his book sales. No longer necessary for him to work for Greece. The real work has to be done by other people, like making the rich pay taxes, cutting military spending etc..,

But he has found his instant money angle, just keep bashing Germany and deny that other countries in Europe have intelligent people and voters too...

If he bothered to read foreign newspapers, he would notice what people in the rest of Europe think of him. And yes there is a Europe outside of Germany, millions of proud people with their own culture and identity.

But he will keep hugging the media spotlight until the money runs out.

At least Tsirpas seems to be serious about achieving results.

Fighting the oligarchs will be very hard work, but if he can win that fight, he will be a real hero.

I still believe the drachme would have given more options. the uk, poland, switzerland all seem to be doing fine with their currencies.

But if the greek people love the euro so much, it is their choice of course. If they believe to be part of the eurozone with all its regulations is best for their economy, then lets see what they do with it.

All we can do is send tax money and watch them work and reform their country.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #487 on:** July 19, 2015, 21:38 »

This reminds me the referendum "victory" and the subsequent agreekment: https://vine.co/v/enhjKXxjPrT

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cobalt · « **Reply #488 on:** July 19, 2015, 23:39 »

Here is a good summary of the challenges ahead and why the economy of greece is still below rwanda.

But of course it is all the fault of Germany...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/20/business/international/greeks-worry-about-bailouts-push-for-an-economic-overhaul.html?hpw&rref&action=click&pgtype=Homepage

ferdinand · « **Reply #489 on:** July 20, 2015, 12:25 »

Quote from: cobalt on July 19, 2015, 23:39

But of course it is all the fault of Germany...

...true...

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #490 on:** July 21, 2015, 06:08 »

Quote from: cobalt on July 11, 2015, 02:46

tax collection is what? 10% of what is due every year?

No, it's something like 32% of GDP, very close to the German level. The nonsense about "Greeks only pay 10% of their taxes" comes from a misinterpretation (wilful?) of a report on total outstanding arrears, which cover many years and now amount to about 90% of the annual "take". The German figures look good compared to the Greek ones because Germany routinely writes off unpaid taxes after a certain time so the total doesn't keep piling up.

If you look at the actual level of tax evasion as a percentage of GDP you find it is cited as 1.8% in Greece and 1.1% in Germany. (Open the link in this page and go to p.16 on the PDF to see the table https://ideas.repec.org/p/ces/ceswps/_4004.html). Furthermore, Ireland is almost at the Greek level, the UK is exactly the same and Cyprus, Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Bulgaria are all ahead of Greece. Even Denmark - surely seen as an upstanding, moral, north-European country - is within a whisker (0.1%) of the Greek rate. So the idea that Greeks are the world's worst tax evaders isn't true - they not even anywhere near being the worst in the EU, in fact they are exactly average for the OECD, yet the Greeks are whipped for it while nobody say a thing about the immoral attitude towards paying tax of the Danes, the Swedes, the Irish, the Poles or the Cypriots (in fact, Ireland and Cyprus are held up as examples for the Greeks to follow).

BTW, I notice with some amusement that the report I quoted there is a discussion paper for a Munich-based economics research group. https://www.cesifo-group.de/ifoHome.html

cobalt · « **Reply #491 on:** July 21, 2015, 06:54 »

The reported gdp is missing the shadow economy that is not reported, especially professionals like doctors and lawyers underreport their income.

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-pledges-rest-hard-keep-promise-tax-reforms-152603452--sector.html

http://qz.com/441393/yes-greece-has-a-serious-tax-evasion-problem/

Do those calculations include the incredible level of bribes? because I really don't see that kind of extreme bribing going on in the other places I know.

It must be a huge level of their countries economy and of course nobody is paying any taxes on that.

I've met various people who claim they haven't paid taxes since the seventies, obviously I don't know if they are just bragging, but since their taxtcollectors often don't even have computers and always need to connect with collegueas via snailmail it is hard to believe that tax collection is the same level as in Sweden.

didn't the new finance minister just explain in an interview how big the loss is and that collecting taxes was their biggest challenge?

Even varoufakis said that raising vat was useless because people would just feel entitled to pay even less taxes and the government would take in even less although the tax had been raised.

If their government structures were working and efficient, why would greece need all that money?

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #492 on:** July 21, 2015, 08:18 »

I've just noticed Table 5, which gives a different analysis taking account self-employment - and puts Greece higher up the table at 4.8% (but still behind Malta 4.9%, Cyprus 5.4, Bulgaria, Romania - Gemany is at 1.9%). I think these figures are using a calculation for including the shadow economy but I can't be bothered to try to understand the whole paper, I was just searching to try to find out what the relative levels of tax evasion are believed to be.
My point still stands that it's far from being an exclusively Greek offence and Greece is apparently not the worst offender, though it's held up almost as if it is unique to Greece and every other country is white as the driven snow. There's no doubt tax evasion is a major problem but there's also no doubt that it is being blown completely out of proportion when people say 90% of tax is evaded - which is wildly untrue.
I don't know if bribes have been calculated into the mix or not, they should have been as a bribe is a form of earnings. I really have trouble believing the bribe level that Transparency International suggests is "average", I'd been told, for example, that 50 euros was the going rate for a doctor, while Transparency's bottom level is double that. And perhaps the massive bribes from Seimens and suchlike are included in the calculations. Since nobody is going to issue their list of bribe fees the statistics are going to be even harder to establish than tax evasion figures. If bribes do, indeed, run at 1,500 euros on average it's obvious that very few people pay them more than once every few years since you can't be handing that amount out "on average" every few weeks.

cobalt · « **Reply #493 on:** July 21, 2015, 08:58 »

I agree that 1500 dollars seems high, maybe it relates to getting ahead for surgery at hospitals etc...

Daily bribing will be in the range of normal prices for these services,except that it is not reported and always done in cash.

From my families experience bribes and black money are completely pervasive on all levels of government and daily life. Since many of them also work or study abroad, I think they are in a very good position to compare.

they think it is totally unfair for the rest of europe to pay for greece, because there is enough money in the country it is just not used efficiently and the rich are not taxed.

The greek church is the second largest landowner, all tax exempt. The church also owns many normal businesses and they don't pay taxes.

neither do the shipping giants.

they say, they are expecting new elections in autumn as another delaying tactic by the government. They have just received fresh money, so the immediate pressure is gone.

They will pass a few laws that nobody follows and that won't be enforced and in a sear or two the greek government will start again blaming it all on germany and ask for more Money.

This is the third bailout, there will be a fourth and a fifth until the money from the other countries stops.

I really can't see especially the poorer countries to be sponsoring greece forever.

The drachme would help their economy, but it looks like taking more loans isthe easier solution in the short term.

Even if you remove all debt,which of course would be unfair to the other countries that are actually paying it back, it wouldn't change the greek economy at all.

Until they work together to create a strong,competitive economy,streamline their legal system, remove work privileges and monopolies in many trades, nothing will change.

Blaming others is not a philosphy that gets things done.

Eta: have you ever seen a health insurance in the uk or sweden that allows you to insure yourself for "little envelopes" i.e. The bribes?

I haven't.

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #494 on:** July 21, 2015, 09:50 »

There was a Brit in our village who suffered a serious illness with a blood vessel exploding in his stomach. He was hospitalised, had emergency surgery (which he was lucky to survive) was flown to Athens by military aircraft because he had to be kept a sea-level pressure, had more operations, was flown back to the local hospital after about a year and then had another operation to reconstruct his throat - I think they'd taken a bit of it out - which, unfortunately, proved too much for him. I never heard of a single "envelope" being involved, so perhaps they only expect envelopes from locals.
I agree that the church should pull its weight and that the wealthy should be pursued to get the tax - hopefully Syriza will do something about that, since they are supposed to be champions of the poor - but then, so were Pasok.
The shipping magnates are apparently taxed on their local revenues but not on cash earned outside Greece, even so, they still make up about 18% of the Greek economy. There was an interesting paper published recently that argued that the thing to do with them was not to try to tax their global earnings - which would drive them away - but to require them to do almost all their banking through Greek institutions, which would bring a huge amount of foreign capital that is being stored overseas at the moment. It sounds a sensible solution to me.
The point of the bailouts is to ensure that Greece doesn't get free money from other countries, if they would call it a loan instead of a "bailout" (which sounds like a gift) it would probably help with public sentiment. Even with "haircuts" they are talking about reduced interest rates, not about capital being written off, aren't they? Borrowing money at an interest rate of -0.2% and lending it to Greece at 2% or whatever is a good deal for German taxpayers - but only as long as the loan is eventually repaid, that's the tricky bit.
I'm not sure about the drachma. It would make the debts far worse - probably push them up to 300% of GDP, it would make securing imports of vital goods - including food, fuel and supplies for manufacturing - difficult. It would, however, provide a solid bottom to start rebuilding on but without access to foreign capital untill the even more unrepayable loans had been repaid or forgiven.

CatTheCat · « **Reply #495 on:** July 21, 2015, 10:03 »

Even if you remove all debt, how can Greece expect to pay the pensions they pay with 60% youth unemployment...
They will be in trouble again in a few years.
Sometimes people don't want to see what it is so obvious. It's easier to say it's Germany's fault, I even see people in Facebook calling the germans nazists when they post about Greece (!!!)

Of course Europe is responsible (they didn't act at the right time). But each country needs to change what it doesn't work and what is unfair, and Greece has a lot to do too!
Varoufakis did nothing for 5 months, what a waste of time...

dk · « **Reply #496 on:** July 21, 2015, 10:33 »

Guys, i think it's time to let go of the whole Greece VS Germany thing. Just because populist politicians and media in both countries want to put the blame for Greece's problems to Germany and vice versa doesn't mean that they are right. We as educated individuals working in an international environment know best and we should not embrace populism.

There are many populist anti-EU parties on the rise in Europe at the moment, very similar to Syriza and ANEL which govern Greece at the moment so keep that in mind the next time you vote and vote responsibly.

cobalt · « **Reply #497 on:** July 21, 2015, 11:34 »

If they have the drachme, part of the debt could actually be written off, one of the reasons many people in the eurozone suggested it and I think even Paul krugman advocated it.

the problem with being part of the eurozone is that you cannot just write off debts, the loan can be extended, but not simply written off. It is part of the package of having the euro.

do you seriously believe germany or any european country gave greece loans because they thought they would make a huge amount of money from the interest???

There are much better options to loan money with interest on the world market.

everyone knew they were propping up the greek government, hopefully buying them time to implement the badly needed reforms.

but it takes honesty, not just from the politicians, but being honest with yourself as a citizen that your life will change, sometimes, painfully change if you want to stand on your own feet.

obviously people took early retirement and very high pensions, much higher than their countries own productive output, for granted.

they just have to imagine for one second that the rest of europe does not exist, how will they pull themselves out of this mess?

How can they attract investors, how can they encourage modern business? How did other countries do it, that didn´t have such generous eu sponsorship?

but unfortunately I believe they will continue down the path of fighting change, having lots of strikes until the flow of money from outside totally stops.

life is still too comfortable for many and since the black market money is such a vital part of people´s income, I doubt they will give it up soon.

the drachme would help, but of course it is a visibly more drastic step then getting another loan. as long as money comes out of the cash machine, even if it is restricted. life is good.

they will again complain "the money from the bailout just went to the banks" and completely ignore it was they themselves that withdraw over 40 billion ! euros since january and thus destabilized their own banks.

all they had to do was bring the money back and just use what is really needed. but of course this would mean taking personal responsibility and putting your money in for the good of your own country.

much easier to moan and complain until outsiders send another cheque.

I wish Greece all the best, but from what I have seen, I doubt it will improve. those that are flexible will go abroad to start a business, they do send money home, but they are not creating jobs in Greece. It is these entrepreneurial people the country has to attract, the talent it has to welcome.

And attracting foreign investment, ask Microsoft to build a computer center...etc...who will want to invest if the legal system simply doesn´t work? You can´t run a business without a proper legal system to enforce contracts.

BaldricksTrousers · « **Reply #498 on:** July 21, 2015, 13:27 »

Oh, I don't think the loans to Greece are a money-making project, isn't the ECB ready to give a lot of the interest back in certain circumstances? No, the loans are about protecting the European financial system from contagion, which would have been catastrophic six or seven years ago and still poses the risk of unpleasant surprises. If the European banks had been left to fend for themselves the entire economic edifice would probably have gone up in flames. So there were very good reasons for taking over the debt.
I wonder how much debt the EU would have been willing to write off if Greece had gone back to the drachma. You'll recall that there was a promise in 2012 to get round to dealing with sustainability and absolutely nothing was ever done about that. Greece would have gone to the drachma on a promise of looking at debt write-offs, but if Schwaeble went to his electorate to say that Germany had to forgive 30bn euros just to get Greece back to where it was before the drachma depreciated, plus another 15 billion to ensure sustainability, plus a generous social support package to keep the people going .... well, I don't think he'd survive the political fallout.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #499 on:** July 21, 2015, 15:49 »

Interesting:

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/21/tsipras-allegedly-asked-russia-for-10-bln-to-print-drachmas/

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Author Topic: GO Greece! (Read 84072 times)

sharpshot

Zero Talent

Titus Livius

cobalt

Zero Talent

CatTheCat

cobalt

Zero Talent

Titus Livius

Zero Talent

KnowYourOnions

cobalt

Zero Talent

cobalt

ferdinand

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