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Microstock Photography Forum - General => Off Topic => Topic started by: No Free Lunch on April 01, 2015, 12:25

Title: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 01, 2015, 12:25
FYI
Tens of thousands of workers in Seattle are getting a boost in their paychecks starting Wednesday as the city's new minimum wage kicks in, rising to $11 for most workers.

It's the first stage of a law that eventually will raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's being phased in more quickly for big companies than small ones.

Seattle's previous minimum wage was $9.47, the same as the Washington state minimum wage.

Local companies have different strategies for dealing with the increased wage. Some are passing the buck on to customers, but others are not.

KOMO News spoke with managers at two Seattle restaurants who say they'll make the higher wage work - with some creativity.

At Ivar's Salmon House in Wallingford, menu prices will be 21 percent higher than before. But to balance, the restaurant will no longer encourage tipping - and is paying minimum wage workers a full $15 an hour - $4 more than required.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cuppacoffee on April 01, 2015, 12:29
Has it worked in SeaTac, a tiny Seattle suburb that adopted $15 per hour months ago? It has not.

In a follow-up piece in the Asian Weekly, a handful of workers voiced this displeasure of the new wage’s unintended consequences:

“Are you happy with the $15 wage?” I asked the full-time cleaning lady.

“It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said.

“Why?” I asked.

“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.

The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.

What else? I asked.

“I have to pay for parking,” she said.

Another SeaTac worker, a waitress, said her tips dropped sharply after the new wage law took effect.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 01, 2015, 12:35
So the salmon house will now rake in what used to be tips, and pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before. There's no way they'd change their policy if it was better for their employees than it is for them.

And other businesses are also taking it out on their employees, because they are so angry that they actually have to pay a living wage. They saved tons of money over the years by not paying salaries that kept up with inflation...I have no sympathy for them.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 01, 2015, 13:01
tips are only a north american thing, in the rest of the world waiters are paid a normal salary like everybody else.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ShadySue on April 01, 2015, 13:32
tips are only a north american thing, in the rest of the world waiters are paid a normal salary like everybody else.
Not so: in many low to middle range UK cafes/restaurants, wait staff are on minimum wage.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cathyslife on April 01, 2015, 13:52
I have no sympathy for them, either. And I am guessing that companies will start cutting back employee's hours to compensate, too. Greedy ba$tard$ will NEVER let the average working joe and jill make a decent living.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: etudiante_rapide on April 01, 2015, 14:33
I have no sympathy for them, either. And I am guessing that companies will start cutting back employee's hours to compensate, too. Greedy ba$tard$ will NEVER let the average working joe and jill make a decent living.

some hospitality business make a lot of money in tips. i remember how as a student working in a pub (Bar) where you can rake in a lot depending on your service and PR with your customers. otoh, in certain districts where customers are know to be tight-ar$e stingy SOBs, the waiter/ress are not so lucky.
.. eg serving a full table of 50 ppl after a football match or a company's goingaway dinner, some are known to get tip of a quarter. at the other end of town, the same pub (bar) gets 15% usually.
so it is no surprise that owners get greedy.
many ethnic business do not have this luxury; in fact waiter/ress do not get paid if no customer.
not that the ethnic businesses are crooks, but more so that they cannot compete against the gen-pop businesses.
i guess it is the same with photography and music. some rake in, others barely get leftovers.
somewhere there should be a better solution but no one really cares about these sector of the pop.
believe me, it is not easy being a waiter or a cashier. ppl in general are rude , and do in fact treat these ppl like the old stereotype slaves or maids.
compared to telemarketing clientele where you really do not see their ugly faces, the job of a telemarketers would be considered easy vs that of a waiter/cashier
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Digital66 on April 01, 2015, 15:03
tips are only a north american thing, in the rest of the world waiters are paid a normal salary like everybody else.
Nope! That's not correct.  In some countries tips in resturants is even mandatory by law.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: etudiante_rapide on April 01, 2015, 15:28
tips are only a north american thing, in the rest of the world waiters are paid a normal salary like everybody else.
Nope! That's not correct.  In some countries tips in resturants is even mandatory by law.

 ;D ;D ;Dkeep the change was not invented by North Am. there are equivalence in portuguese, arabic, spanish, mandarin, cantonese, japanese,etc...
so definitely, you don't just tip in USA,CDA,Mexico.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 01, 2015, 16:05
I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean  :-[

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on April 01, 2015, 16:27
I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean  :-[

Well, good for him.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PeterChigmaroff on April 01, 2015, 19:05
Has it worked in SeaTac, a tiny Seattle suburb that adopted $15 per hour months ago? It has not.

In a follow-up piece in the Asian Weekly, a handful of workers voiced this displeasure of the new wage’s unintended consequences:

“Are you happy with the $15 wage?” I asked the full-time cleaning lady.

“It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said.

“Why?” I asked.

“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.

The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.

What else? I asked.

“I have to pay for parking,” she said.

Another SeaTac worker, a waitress, said her tips dropped sharply after the new wage law took effect.

Let me guess which you you vote.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 01, 2015, 23:30
tips are only a north american thing, in the rest of the world waiters are paid a normal salary like everybody else.

Not so: in many low to middle range UK cafes/restaurants, wait staff are on minimum wage.


sure but we should be a bit more specific : apprentice waiters that start from scratch cannot expect a decent pay unless they become skilled but there's no reason an experienced waiter should be paid a pittance with the excuse that tips will compensate for it !

even salesmen are paid a basic salary and compensate with commissions on sales but the basic salary alone is usually enough to survive and often they also get free meals and many other benefits.

and yet for whatever reason waiters are the ones scre-wed royally and paid less than someone cleaning toilets.

as if serving tables and smiling at your customers was such a bad thing, it says a lot about business owners in my opinion ... if providing a good service is the last of your priority i can pretty much eat from a coin-operated machine or at mcdonalds ...

do you know the dutch fast food chain FEBO for instance ? you put a coin on the wall and you grab a burger or a snack ... no waiters, no tips ...

http://unlike.net/amsterdam/food/febo (http://unlike.net/amsterdam/food/febo)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 01, 2015, 23:36
I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean  :-[

25K over 80K sales ? that's a 30% net profit after tax ... which is more or less the norm in the food industry as far as i know, actually restaurants make much more but they have higher costs involved than fast foods or pizza joints.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: eyewave on April 02, 2015, 03:33
tips are only a north american thing, in the rest of the world waiters are paid a normal salary like everybody else.
Not so: in many low to middle range UK cafes/restaurants, wait staff are on minimum wage.

So are many in Germany, especially seasonal employees.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 02, 2015, 07:45
I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean  :-[

It's his business. He took all the risks to get it started and keep it going. If the economy tanks again or some other crazy thing drives him out of business, it won't be the employees who have to seek bankruptcy protection.

Besides which, anyone who is self-employed should understand all the other costs and frustrations with running a business. The taxes, the licenses, the insurance and all the other associated costs. He does the hard work, not the $8 an hour employees who just collect a check for sweeping the floor and saying "here's your pizza, sir." The truth is, if working as a low wage worker at a pizza place is all you're qualified to do, then $8 an hour is what you deserve. It's not meant to be a lifelong occupation. It's a job for students who can use a little extra income for gas and dime bags.

Owning your own business is hard. You don't get sick days, you don't get vacation or time off. You make things work or you don't get paid. I've known lots of business owners who have not paid themselves so they could pay their employees, especially when they're businesses are new.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:19
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on April 02, 2015, 08:29
Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

It's a minimum wage, not a maximum wage.  There is nothing stopping from anyone paying more than minimum, if the market requires it.  Like McDonald's and Walmart have been forced to raise their wages in the last few days/weeks.  Costco pays more and gets better employees.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 08:36
"Forced" is the operative word there. Costco does pay more, and treats its employees with respect, and did so without being forced. Walmart (Sam's Club) did so only after succumbing to tremendous pressure after their labor practices were exposed. The Waltons are some of the richest oligarchs in the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton_family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walton_family)

The fact is that many business owners will pay only as much as they're forced to. Which is why we need to force the minimum wage up. The growing disparity between rich and poor in this country is unsustainable.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Nikovsk on April 02, 2015, 09:22
There should be no minimum wage, at least in developed countries. Market would adjust itself. If no one is willing to flip burgers, wages would rise. If only we kept low skilled, uneducated immigrants at bay - not the intention of politicians and large corporations that finance them.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 02, 2015, 09:37
50% of new small businesses fail in 5 years or less.

Cornell University and Michigan State University study: After the first year 27% of restaurant startups failed; after three years, 50% of those restaurants were no longer in business; and after five years 60% had gone south. At the end of 10 years, 70% of the restaurants that had opened for business a decade before had failed.

True I understand the current minimum wage is not a living wage. I've worked in the restaurant and bar industry on and off for about 40 years. (I swear - never again!) Getting hired at a good restaurant is not easy, because the work will earn staff good tips and reasonable wages.

They pay minimum wage because tips are expected to bring up the wages to something livable. If it wasn't for the laws, these services industry business might pay No Wages and people would work for tips alone. It used to be that way, not long ago.

Of course the businesses were not required to track and report tips of employees either. People were happy, but the government stepped in to grab their taxes. Now a regulation to increase minimum wage, will pay people more and businesses will find ways to recover the expense. Doesn't seem to be a win except in principle?

Flipping burgers the pay is what the market will bear. If people refused to work for minimum wage, the businesses would be forced to pay more to get "good" employees? If someone wants a job, which involves no training, experience, or special talents, why should the owner assume the responsibility to pay that person and train them too?

I worked in a book store in college and was very happy to have any job at all. Minimum wage, no tips. Worked for the university at the same time, less than minimum wage. How is it the state is exempt from paying minimum wages? And people talk about big business taking advantage of people?

UPS loading trucks at 2AM - 7AM Summer job, paid three times the book store or University. They had a dress code, facial hair code and behavior standards. Paid well but some people wouldn't shave to make the money...

In some ways minimum wage work is like Microstock? People will take 28c a DL and voluntarily work in the market. They walk in, knowing the pay scale and no benefits. Self employed. Some do well, for some it's spare income, some leave.

Minimum wage isn't meant to be a living wage. It's to protect workers from slave labor. Same reason for child labor laws, safety regulations and many others, for work environments. Protection, not entitlements.

Anyone think the Feds should set a minimum commission standard for stock photos artists compensation?
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 02, 2015, 09:50
There should be no minimum wage, at least in developed countries. Market would adjust itself. If no one is willing to flip burgers, wages would rise. If only we kept low skilled, uneducated immigrants at bay - not the intention of politicians and large corporations that finance them.

I agree with you on the no minimum wage part. The imposed minimum wage actually eliminates jobs some people would be willing to perform.

But I disagree with your fear of immigrants. It is proven fact that the immigrants actually contribute to the growth of the economy, making life better for everybody, at the end of the day.  Food in America would be 2-3 times more expensive for everybody, without the hard work provided by immigrants. And such examples are numerous and well documented.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 02, 2015, 10:00
I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean  :-[

It's a job for students who can use a little extra income for gas and dime bags.


It's a job for Microstock photographers who can use a little extra income, in some cases their main income, for gas and nickel bags  ;D
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Nikovsk on April 02, 2015, 10:37
There should be no minimum wage, at least in developed countries. Market would adjust itself. If no one is willing to flip burgers, wages would rise. If only we kept low skilled, uneducated immigrants at bay - not the intention of politicians and large corporations that finance them.


I agree with you on the no minimum wage part. The imposed minimum wage actually eliminates jobs some people would be willing to perform.

But I disagree with your fear of immigrants. It is proven fact that the immigrants actually contribute to the growth of the economy, making life better for everybody, at the end of the day.  Food in America would be 2-3 times more expensive for everybody, without the hard work provided by immigrants. And such examples are numerous and well documented.

I'm not against immigration per se. You see, I'm an immigrant myself. But I don't live off government benefits, I'm educated, don't commit crimes, respect the local culture and don't take anyone's job. Take a look at Sweden, the local police made a report saying there are 55 official no-go zones, taken by muslim gangs. Of course you won't ever see that in the mainstream media.

If you immigrate legally to Europe, the bureaucracy is a real pain in the *ss. I did it. While when undocumented illegals invade such countries, they receive free housing, clothes, food, school, medical care and benefits. I can't see how the local people will ever benefit since they're paying for all those costs, while having their wages pushed down and real estate prices pushed up. The only ones who benefit from this scheme are large corporations, who get to pay less and thus enjoy greater profits.

It came to the point where I feel safer walking in a favela in Rio than walking down the street in Malmo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_crime)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 02, 2015, 11:02


Hmm, there are consequences and much larger and beneficial economical effects, beyond the rudimentary "explanations" fed by too many extreme right nationalists, eager to blame others to gain votes.

Low skilled immigrants work harder and actually get less benefits from governments than the "natives". They don't feel "entitled" only because they are born between some borders. They take jobs no "native" would want, making things economically possible, boosting growth for everybody.

Or, if they are skilled and educated, they can hit the ground running, they pay above average taxes, without any investment in their education from the adoptive country.

http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21635008-and-how-obamas-order-doesnt-how-migrants-help (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21635008-and-how-obamas-order-doesnt-how-migrants-help)

http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us (http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21631076-rather-lot-according-new-piece-research-what-have-immigrants-ever-done-us)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 02, 2015, 12:20
I personally know a large pizza store owner that has over $80,000 USD in sales and nets about $25,000 per month and doesn't want to pay his workings over $8 per hour also without any benefits! He drives a fancy 755Li BMW and lives in a 5 million house on the ocean  :-[

Yep.  The real reason to pay workers pitiful low wages is simple greed.  Same thing going on in microstock. 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 02, 2015, 12:24
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Bravo!  Beatifully put!  Would give more than+1 if I could.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Nikovsk on April 02, 2015, 13:16

Oh you're one of those that believe everything they read on the media...

Multiculturalism has certainly worked well in Sweden:
http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/ (http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cascoly on April 02, 2015, 13:27
So the salmon house will now rake in what used to be tips, and pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before. There's no way they'd change their policy if it was better for their employees than it is for them.

.....


Ivars has always been one of the most progressive employers in the Seattle area

"pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before"  ????  they RAISED their pay to $15 per hour

from the ivars website
Quote
•Insurance – We like to make sure that our staff members lead healthy lives outside of work by offering insurance packages based on their position and length of service, including: ◦Medical, dental, and vision insurance
◦Disability and life insurance
◦Supplemental health insurance

•Opportunities for Advancement – At Ivar's, we believe in the potential of all of our employees and do everything we can to help them achieve their career goals. We provide comprehensive training and development and promote from within whenever possible.
•Financial Planning – Many of our employees are not only looking ahead to their workplace future, but also to their financial future. To help with this planning, Ivar's offers a 401(k) Plan, investment planning services, and a Home Ownership Assistance Program


The basics of Ivar’s new policy will go like this: All employees, both tipped waitstaff and non-tipped back-of-house staff, will earn $15 an hour. (Currently, waitstaff make the state minimum wage of $9.47 plus tips, while back-of-house wages range from $12 to $15 without tips, according to Donegan.) Discretionary tipping by customers will be taken away, and instead all waitstaff will receive an 8 percent commission on sales, while back-of-house staffers will receive 9 percent of sales.
...
 Ivar’s will not make any changes to employees’ other compensations. The company will continue to offer full benefits to full- and part-time employees, as well as match contributions to 401(k) plans at 50 percent
http://www.thestranger.com/food-and-drink/feature/2015/03/30/21976753/ivars-salmon-house-is-going-tipless (http://www.thestranger.com/food-and-drink/feature/2015/03/30/21976753/ivars-salmon-house-is-going-tipless)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cascoly on April 02, 2015, 13:28
There should be no minimum wage, at least in developed countries. Market would adjust itself. If no one is willing to flip burgers, wages would rise. If only we kept low skilled, uneducated immigrants at bay - not the intention of politicians and large corporations that finance them.

but for the fact that the accepted norm now is 5-6% unemployment, so there will always be people who have to take the below-living wages just to stay alive
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 02, 2015, 13:36

Oh you're one of those that believe everything they read on the media...

Multiculturalism has certainly worked well in Sweden:
[url]http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/[/url] ([url]http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/swedish-police-55-official-no-go-zones/[/url])


Are you sure is not the same thing as the so called "Birmingham no-go zones" or the "Paris no-go zones", frantically advertised by Fox News?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/12/paris-lawsuit-fox-news-reporting-no-go-zones-non-muslims (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/12/paris-lawsuit-fox-news-reporting-no-go-zones-non-muslims)

Not a surprise that they were forced to apologize for their error! Very unusual for Fox News:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/3995699587001/fox-news-apologizes-for-european-muslim-population-errors/?#sp=show-clips (http://video.foxnews.com/v/3995699587001/fox-news-apologizes-for-european-muslim-population-errors/?#sp=show-clips)

And if your french is good, check this very funny take on the same subject:
http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/c-le-petit-journal/pid6515-le-petit-journal.html?vid=1197745 (http://www.canalplus.fr/c-divertissement/c-le-petit-journal/pid6515-le-petit-journal.html?vid=1197745)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Nikovsk on April 02, 2015, 13:45
Yes I'm sure. It's a document issued by the swedish police. Is that reliable enough?
Now good luck finding a single Guardian article about it.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 02, 2015, 13:49
So the salmon house will now rake in what used to be tips, and pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before. There's no way they'd change their policy if it was better for their employees than it is for them.

.....


Ivars has always been one of the most progressive employers in the Seattle area

"pay their servers what is probably substantially less per hour than they made with those before"  ????  they RAISED their pay to $15 per hour

from the ivars website
Quote
•Insurance – We like to make sure that our staff members lead healthy lives outside of work by offering insurance packages based on their position and length of service, including: ◦Medical, dental, and vision insurance
◦Disability and life insurance
◦Supplemental health insurance

•Opportunities for Advancement – At Ivar's, we believe in the potential of all of our employees and do everything we can to help them achieve their career goals. We provide comprehensive training and development and promote from within whenever possible.
•Financial Planning – Many of our employees are not only looking ahead to their workplace future, but also to their financial future. To help with this planning, Ivar's offers a 401(k) Plan, investment planning services, and a Home Ownership Assistance Program


The basics of Ivar’s new policy will go like this: All employees, both tipped waitstaff and non-tipped back-of-house staff, will earn $15 an hour. (Currently, waitstaff make the state minimum wage of $9.47 plus tips, while back-of-house wages range from $12 to $15 without tips, according to Donegan.) Discretionary tipping by customers will be taken away, and instead all waitstaff will receive an 8 percent commission on sales, while back-of-house staffers will receive 9 percent of sales.
...
 Ivar’s will not make any changes to employees’ other compensations. The company will continue to offer full benefits to full- and part-time employees, as well as match contributions to 401(k) plans at 50 percent
[url]http://www.thestranger.com/food-and-drink/feature/2015/03/30/21976753/ivars-salmon-house-is-going-tipless[/url] ([url]http://www.thestranger.com/food-and-drink/feature/2015/03/30/21976753/ivars-salmon-house-is-going-tipless[/url])


The article you link to points out that servers are now uncertain about their wages there -- and whether they will even continue to make the same amount, not more, remains to be seen.

Also, the restaurant owner helped fund the anti-$15 initiative. And he's not interested in talking to his employees about their wages. "he’s also fine with the possibility that staff may leave because of the new policy: 'If you as a server don’t like the uncertainty of this system and you think you can do better, by earning all of the tips that you’ve earned in the past, and you want to be on your own, that’s okay.'"
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: michaeldb on April 02, 2015, 19:51
Anyone think the Feds should set a minimum commission standard for stock photos artists compensation?

One million dollars.  (Why not? If you want more money just pass a law saying that people have to give it to you. We'll all be rich!)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 02, 2015, 21:33
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry. I'm not buying it. It is so easy in this country to get the education and skills needed to make more than minimum wage. There are grants and scholarships all over the place. You don't need a four year degree to have good job skills. In fact, technical school training can sometimes gain you a lot more than a philosophy degree. You can be an auto mechanic or a long haul truck drive and still make a good living.

The problem is people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to make a living wage anymore. If the best you can do is stock shelves at Wal-Mart at age 40, you need to rethink your plan and go back to school.

And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch." Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: marquixHD on April 03, 2015, 06:16
FYI
Tens of thousands of workers in Seattle are getting a boost in their paychecks starting Wednesday as the city's new minimum wage kicks in, rising to $11 for most workers.

It's the first stage of a law that eventually will raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's being phased in more quickly for big companies than small ones.

Seattle's previous minimum wage was $9.47, the same as the Washington state minimum wage.

Local companies have different strategies for dealing with the increased wage. Some are passing the buck on to customers, but others are not.

KOMO News spoke with managers at two Seattle restaurants who say they'll make the higher wage work - with some creativity.

At Ivar's Salmon House in Wallingford, menu prices will be 21 percent higher than before. But to balance, the restaurant will no longer encourage tipping - and is paying minimum wage workers a full $15 an hour - $4 more than required.

yet another move to more government and employer-controlled living (remember that, unlike tips, fixed salaries just so happen to be taxed)...
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: marquixHD on April 03, 2015, 06:20
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Quote
(...)

>And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch."
me neither ;)

Quote
>Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.
you're totally right -- but that's the part mass-media dumbed-down populations tend to forget these days...
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 03, 2015, 08:09
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry. I'm not buying it. It is so easy in this country to get the education and skills needed to make more than minimum wage. There are grants and scholarships all over the place. You don't need a four year degree to have good job skills. In fact, technical school training can sometimes gain you a lot more than a philosophy degree. You can be an auto mechanic or a long haul truck drive and still make a good living.

The problem is people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to make a living wage anymore. If the best you can do is stock shelves at Wal-Mart at age 40, you need to rethink your plan and go back to school.

And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch." Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.

Well, I'm not particularly concerned whether you "buy it" or not. I've stated facts. The cost of living and the cost of education have both risen significantly over the past few decades, and minimum wage has not kept pace. Business owners have therefore been paying less to workers than they should have for the past couple of decades. Even if the minimum wage was increased to $15, it would only bring it up to the level which it should be to keep pace with inflation, and that would not make up for all the wages people have lost over the past couple of decades while they were being underpaid.

When I was college-aged it was possible to work full-time at a minimum wage job and pay your way through college, which is what I did, without student loans, scholarships or financial aid. I took a full course load with a double major and worked 40 hours a week at a convenience store. That's just not possible any more, because the minimum wage has not kept pace with the cost of living or the cost of education.

And of course, it was also possible for me to get into college because I'm a relatively privileged person in this country. I'm white and grew up with two parents in a middle-class town with an excellent public school system near a major metropolitan area (New York). I was born in a big city (New York) so was not intimidated by it.

And no, a pizza shop owner is not an oligarch, but if the business is unsustainable because the owner can't afford to pay his workers, then he "deserves" to go out of business. Does he stiff the pizza oven manufacturers? The furniture manufacturers? His suppliers? His landlord? He pays all those costs despite the fact that they've risen with inflation, and he raises his prices along with inflation. His employees are also a business expense, and paying them should also keep pace with inflation.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 03, 2015, 08:20
Here is what Seattle businesses did this morning-

SEATTLE -- Dining out in Seattle may mean dishing out more dough.
Restaurants in the Emerald City are tacking on surcharges and increasing prices to accommodate the minimum wage increase that became law on April 1st.
 
"We wanted to take the most transparent route and put a surcharge on the bill that would allow customers to track what they're paying," said Chris Linker, co-owner and managing partner of Black Bottle. "We wanted to make the commitment that 100 percent of those proceeds would go back to the staff who needs it the most."
 
The Belltown restaurant started adding a 2 percent "wage equality surcharge" on Wednesday, when the first stage of Seattle's new minimum wage law took effect. The ordinance will eventually raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour.
 
Wednesday's step increased wages to $11 per hour for most workers.
 
"We can either reduce quality, we can reduce the number of hours that people work and risk losing good people, or we can raise prices," Linker added. "For us, we didn't like any of those options. We're participating in a way we feel is a genuine."
 
Seattle restaurateur Tom Douglas said he was also planning a similar 2 percent surcharge at his 14 restaurants.
 
Receipts from the South Lake Union location of Serious Pie and Biscuit showed the surcharge on Thursday. A $5 coffee, for example, had an additional $.08 fee tacked onto it.
 
"We felt the most competitive and least intrusive is to implement a surcharge equal to the increase in wages until all restaurants in Seattle are on the same playing field," Douglas wrote in the blog post that has since been taken down. "100 percent of this surcharge will be distributed to our staff in either wages or benefits."
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 03, 2015, 08:27
If you run for office, you get my vote. Everyone gets to sell one image for a lifetime of wages and then they become retired...  ;D We work for artistic goals after that, not income.

I told the band that. Instead of playing for $200 a night, just book one job a month for $1600. They wouldn't listen...

Anyone think the Feds should set a minimum commission standard for stock photos artists compensation?

One million dollars.  (Why not? If you want more money just pass a law saying that people have to give it to you. We'll all be rich!)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 03, 2015, 08:59
Quote from: Shelma1
  Does he stiff the pizza oven manufacturers? The furniture manufacturers? His suppliers? His landlord? He pays all those costs despite the fact that they've risen with inflation, and he raises his prices along with inflation.

Maybe he will switch to cheaper oven/furniture manufacturers dropping the quality of his product. Maybe he will relocate his business in an area with lower wages and costs, thus boosting the unemployment in the cities with minimum wage laws. This is a perverse effect you have to be aware of. Instead of a minimum income, people can end with no income at all.

The same thing goes with the rent control laws. These laws are intended to help low income people but they end acting against their interests.
Since the rent is artificially limited, the landlords don't get enough income to maintain the buildings, the buildings slowly decay and end-up being abandoned (or even burned down for insurance purposes). The quality of the low rent housing drops and eventually it leads to the disappearance of the low rent housing. Instead of cheaper housing, low income people might not get any housing at all.

But rent control laws don't apply to luxurious buildings, so the developers will only invest in this type of housing. The luxurious building development soars in New York City. This is why the average rent goes up much faster than in a city with free market rent. This will drag along all the other costs and prices.
Maximum rent laws drive low income people out of these big cities, forcing them to spend more on commuting, increasing traffic jams, forcing them to rely more and more on help from the government, instead of themselves, etc.

What was once perceived as good law ends up producing the opposite effect.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 03, 2015, 09:05
Tips are taxed. Employers are required - by law - to track them and report. Ask someone who works in the restaurant or any other service business. USA

yet another move to more government and employer-controlled living (remember that fixed salaries unlike tips just so happen to be taxed)...
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cathyslife on April 03, 2015, 09:17
Sorry, but I will never have any sympathy for a business owner paying himself a huge wage that affords him the ability to own two homes, take 4 trips a year to Europe, drive the best of cars, and pi$$ money away in ways I can't even imagine, all while griping about how he has to pay his employees a measly $11 an hour. Sure, HE/SHE took risks by opening the business, and for that he/she should be able to reap rewards, but while he/she is away, sitting on the beach drinking a pina colada, those employees are still working their a$$e$ off for him, making him even more money.

Seems like once someone starts making a certain amount of money, they feel entitled to treat everyone else like dirt, even though they wouldn't even HAVE that money without the staffs help. There is a give and take that comes with being a business owner, but some people just want to take and keep taking and not give anything back to those who helped get them where they are. (think microstock agencies)

I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement. Rather than separate out the extra .08 cent charge to constantly throw it in everyone's face, why not just up their menu item prices by 8 cents and get on with it? Heaven forbid they should actually take the money out of their own salary. They could cut back from 5 Starbucks a week to 4 and make up the difference.  ::)

Oh, and by the way, I owned my own business in Los Angeles for 10 years and paid my employees the wage I would want to make. So I know EXACTLY what it takes it open a business. I ended up selling the company to a printing company because I spent more time driving, keeping books, and selling than I did doing what I loved, graphic design.
 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 10:08
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Sorry. I'm not buying it. It is so easy in this country to get the education and skills needed to make more than minimum wage. There are grants and scholarships all over the place. You don't need a four year degree to have good job skills. In fact, technical school training can sometimes gain you a lot more than a philosophy degree. You can be an auto mechanic or a long haul truck drive and still make a good living.

The problem is people aren't willing to put in the time and effort it takes to make a living wage anymore. If the best you can do is stock shelves at Wal-Mart at age 40, you need to rethink your plan and go back to school.

And I'd hardly consider the owner of a pizza shop an "oligarch." Without people like him, willing to take risks and work hard to get their businesses off the ground, there'd be no jobs at all.

Well, I'm not particularly concerned whether you "buy it" or not. I've stated facts. The cost of living and the cost of education have both risen significantly over the past few decades, and minimum wage has not kept pace. Business owners have therefore been paying less to workers than they should have for the past couple of decades. Even if the minimum wage was increased to $15, it would only bring it up to the level which it should be to keep pace with inflation, and that would not make up for all the wages people have lost over the past couple of decades while they were being underpaid.

When I was college-aged it was possible to work full-time at a minimum wage job and pay your way through college, which is what I did, without student loans, scholarships or financial aid. I took a full course load with a double major and worked 40 hours a week at a convenience store. That's just not possible any more, because the minimum wage has not kept pace with the cost of living or the cost of education.

And of course, it was also possible for me to get into college because I'm a relatively privileged person in this country. I'm white and grew up with two parents in a middle-class town with an excellent public school system near a major metropolitan area (New York). I was born in a big city (New York) so was not intimidated by it.

And no, a pizza shop owner is not an oligarch, but if the business is unsustainable because the owner can't afford to pay his workers, then he "deserves" to go out of business. Does he stiff the pizza oven manufacturers? The furniture manufacturers? His suppliers? His landlord? He pays all those costs despite the fact that they've risen with inflation, and he raises his prices along with inflation. His employees are also a business expense, and paying them should also keep pace with inflation.

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 03, 2015, 10:17
Sorry, but I will never have any sympathy for a business owner paying himself a huge wage that affords him the ability to own two homes, take 4 trips a year to Europe, drive the best of cars, and pi$$ money away in ways I can't even imagine, all while griping about how he has to pay his employees a measly $11 an hour.

Don't worry, he can only behave like this as long as he doesn't have enough competition. And, in a way, he must be appreciated for being smart enough to create that type of business with no competitor to challenge his lifestyle.
When some smarter entrepreneur will figure out that he can offer the same services or products without pi$$ing the money away and by attracting your guy's employees with a decent salary, then the guy you despise will either adapt to the market, or go bankrupt.

The problem is that, sometimes, too many artificial regulations (including wage laws) and special interests (mainly political) discourage competition. And this is when mini-monopolies, like the one you describe, thrive and generate these perverted effects.

What was once perceived as good law ends up producing the opposite effect.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 03, 2015, 10:17
I agree with you on the no minimum wage part. The imposed minimum wage actually eliminates jobs some people would be willing to perform.

in germany they "fixed" the issue with the so called "minijobs" that pay maximum 400 euro/month.

so now you've people running 3-4 different minijobs and working like a mule to earn barely 1200 euro on a good month.

and yet as bad as it is this is the BEST solution that came out of the EU in the last decades so go figure...

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Difydave on April 03, 2015, 10:37
I agree with you on the no minimum wage part. The imposed minimum wage actually eliminates jobs some people would be willing to perform.

in germany they "fixed" the issue with the so called "minijobs" that pay maximum 400 euro/month.

so now you've people running 3-4 different minijobs and working like a mule to earn barely 1200 euro on a good month.

and yet as bad as it is this is the BEST solution that came out of the EU in the last decades so go figure...


About typical of any such attempt at government intervention I'd have said.
Make everyone except themselves equally poor.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 03, 2015, 12:06

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.

"According to Bloomberg, college tuition and fees have increased 1,120 percent since records began in 1978.

Using this chart to explain its findings, Bloomberg reports that the rate of increase in college costs has been 'four times faster than the increase in the consumer price index.' It also notes that 'medical expenses have climbed 601 percent, while the price of food has increased 244 percent over the same period.'"

The cost of a college education has increased more than 1,000% since 1978, while the minimum wage has increased about 275%.

You can apply for grants or scholarships, but there's no guarantee you'll get them. And everyone can't serve in the military. You can't even get a student loan unless you qualify—I couldn't.

I'm not sure why you are so adamantly opposed to the minimum wage simply keeping pace with the economy.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 13:28

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.

"According to Bloomberg, college tuition and fees have increased 1,120 percent since records began in 1978.

Using this chart to explain its findings, Bloomberg reports that the rate of increase in college costs has been 'four times faster than the increase in the consumer price index.' It also notes that 'medical expenses have climbed 601 percent, while the price of food has increased 244 percent over the same period.'"

The cost of a college education has increased more than 1,000% since 1978, while the minimum wage has increased about 275%.

You can apply for grants or scholarships, but there's no guarantee you'll get them. And everyone can't serve in the military. You can't even get a student loan unless you qualify—I couldn't.

I'm not sure why you are so adamantly opposed to the minimum wage simply keeping pace with the economy.

Because it makes no sense to have the same minimum wage in areas of the country with vastly different costs of living. City leaders in San Francisco can thump their chests all they want about raising the minimum wage there to $15 an hour, but that amount has less spending potential than $7.25 an hour where I live.

All I've seen from people with views similar to yours is demagoguery about sticking it to corporations and the "oligarchs" who run small pizza shops. It's garbage.

Did you try to serve in the military to pay for school? Did you make that effort? I doubt it. Fact is, people who think they're stuck earning minimum wage haven't made the effort needed to get a job that pays more than minimum wage. If they did, fewer people would be available for those jobs and the demand would increase the pay.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 03, 2015, 13:47

Did you try to serve in the military to pay for school? Did you make that effort? I doubt it.

While I agree with you that there should be no minimum wage laws, but let the free market decide them, I am with Shelma on the education problem.

The American education system is broken. It is based on wealth instead of being based on intellectual merits. Only rich kids can afford to go to universities able to compete with the rest of the world. Moreover, morons can go to ivy league universities, only because they play well some sport? Come-on!

Besides, no parents in a civilized country, should be forced to send their kids to war in order to get a decent education. Losing a limb or being killed only to "serve" (and here, "serve" has his original Latin meaning = slave) the government and the warmongers in congress? No thank you!
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 14:51

Did you try to serve in the military to pay for school? Did you make that effort? I doubt it.

While I agree with you that there should be no minimum wage laws, but let the free market decide them, I am with Shelma on the education problem.

The American education system is broken. It is based on wealth instead of being based on intellectual merits. Only rich kids can afford to go to universities able to compete with the rest of the world. Moreover, morons can go to ivy league universities, only because they play well some sport? Come-on!

Besides, no parents in a civilized country, should be forced to send their kids to war in order to get a decent education. Losing a limb or being killed only to "serve" (and here, "serve" has his original Latin meaning = slave) the government and the warmongers in congress? No thank you!

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that last part. I think every American has a responsibility to serve their nation, state or community at some point. It doesn't have to be in the military. There are other ways in which you can serve and get educational benefits.  I wasn't a slave. I volunteered and got money in education in return.

I guess I get bothered by entitlement attitudes. You're not supposed to be given anything, other than the freedom to make a way for yourself. At least that's the way I see things. I understand other people see things differently and think things like health insurance or free education should be a right. I just don't. I think those things should earned. 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: gbalex on April 03, 2015, 15:05
In Utopia, $8/hour jobs are held by high school kids who are on their way to college and making a better living.

In America, the oligarchs buy government representation and lobby to pass laws that benefits themselves and their business interests, which has led to increasing disparity between rich and poor. The U.S. now has the largest gap between rich and poor of any industrialized nation. They also cut spending on education, making it more difficult for people to get ahead. This leads to adult heads of households struggling to feed their families on minimum wage salaries. It's more difficult to be upwardly mobile in the U.S. than in many other comparable economies.

Yes, business owners take risks—but one of the challenges of starting a business is being able to make that business profitable while paying a living wage to your employees. Insurance, equipment and other associated costs have not been kept artificially low while inflation marches on. The minimum wage has remained stagnant for decades while businesses are making record profits. Paying your employees is a business expense, and it should be an expense that keeps up with the cost of living. If you can't operate a successful business paying what you need for the assets required to run that business, employees included, you deserve to have to declare bankruptcy.

Could not agree more!

This also apply's to microstock.  Shutterstock has not made a price of living adjustments for it's contributors since 2008. And they are taking their profit out of our hides by devaluing the assets they depend on to make a living.

I am certain that if they paid for the equipment, materials, talent and labor to produce said assets themselves, they would not be leading a race to devalue the product they require to maintain company revenue.

Shutterstock now has a significant portion of the market and their actions affect the entire market negatively when they continue using the downward trend to gain market share.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cathyslife on April 03, 2015, 15:07
I guess I get bothered by entitlement attitudes. You're not supposed to be given anything, other than the freedom to make a way for yourself. At least that's the way I see things. I understand other people see things differently and think things like health insurance or free education should be a right. I just don't. I think those things should earned.
I don't understand how raising minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living is entitlement. Entitlement would be if people didn't want to work at all and expected to get paid. In most instances, like the company referred to in the beginning of this thread, expenses go up all the time, and business owners raise their rates accordingly. Why wouldn't minimum wage go up as well?

I agree with you that things like health insurance and education shouldn't be free, but how can a kid just graduating from college afford to pay housing, auto, health insurance, student loans, etc. on $7.00/hr? If he has an education, he should be able to get a better paying job. But that isn't going to happen instantaneously, for most. A huge local ad agency here hires graphic designers, requires a bachelors degree, and pays $25,000/yr. starting salary. That isn't much more over minimum wage. But management all drive BMWs and live in half a million dollar homes.

The gap is widening between the poor and the rich. There isn't going to be a middle class soon.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 03, 2015, 15:17

I guess I get bothered by entitlement attitudes. You're not supposed to be given anything, other than the freedom to make a way for yourself. At least that's the way I see things. I understand other people see things differently and think things like health insurance or free education should be a right. I just don't. I think those things should earned.

We can debate about healthcare. You said, everyone must have "responsibility towards the community". True!

But since I have to pay taxes, I prefer to see my taxes used to help poor people with their sickness, instead of helping politicians waging wars on the other side of the world.

Moreover, please realize that my taxes are used to subsidize the education for war volunteers like you, while I have to pay $45K/year for my kid (thank you microstock, for chipping in!)

I would prefer to subsidize a smart kid with poor parents instead of a soldier who decided to "serve" the politicians and their wars.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Sean Locke Photography on April 03, 2015, 15:17
I agree with you that things like health insurance and education shouldn't be free, but how can a kid just graduating from college afford to pay housing, auto, health insurance, student loans, etc. on $7.00/hr? If he has an education, he should be able to get a better paying job. But that isn't going to happen instantaneously, for most. A huge local ad agency here hires graphic designers, requires a bachelors degree, and pays $25,000/yr. starting salary. That isn't much more over minimum wage. But management all drive BMWs and live in half a million dollar homes.

I graduated from college, and started at Disney making $7.35 working in the parks.  I lived with my roommate in a $600 a month 2 bedroom.  When I turned full time, 3 months later, I got health insurance.  We went to nickel beer night.  Eventually I quit my full time to go part time, and had two other part time jobs, until I got into Feature Animation.  So, yes, you can do it.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 03, 2015, 15:40
I guess I get bothered by entitlement attitudes. You're not supposed to be given anything, other than the freedom to make a way for yourself. At least that's the way I see things. I understand other people see things differently and think things like health insurance or free education should be a right. I just don't. I think those things should earned.
I don't understand how raising minimum wages to keep up with the cost of living is entitlement. Entitlement would be if people didn't want to work at all and expected to get paid. In most instances, like the company referred to in the beginning of this thread, expenses go up all the time, and business owners raise their rates accordingly. Why wouldn't minimum wage go up as well?

I agree with you that things like health insurance and education shouldn't be free, but how can a kid just graduating from college afford to pay housing, auto, health insurance, student loans, etc. on $7.00/hr? If he has an education, he should be able to get a better paying job. But that isn't going to happen instantaneously, for most. A huge local ad agency here hires graphic designers, requires a bachelors degree, and pays $25,000/yr. starting salary. That isn't much more over minimum wage. But management all drive BMWs and live in half a million dollar homes.

The gap is widening between the poor and the rich. There isn't going to be a middle class soon.

It's entitlement thinking because some people think they "deserve" more pay for a job that requires no education, no experience and very little responsibility. Nobody "deserves" anything. And $25,000 a year is a lot more than minimum wage. A full-time minimum wage worker only makes $15,000 a year. My first job out of school in 1994 only paid $18,000 a year, and I had a family to support.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: etudiante_rapide on April 03, 2015, 15:50
It's entitlement thinking because some people think they "deserve" more pay for a job that requires no education, no experience and very little responsibility. Nobody "deserves" anything. And $25,000 a year is a lot more than minimum wage. A full-time minimum wage worker only makes $15,000 a year. My first job out of school in 1994 only paid $18,000 a year, and I had a family to support.

i'm not even sure waiter(ess) job is very little responsibility. i have sat and watched in many bars, restaurants, and the treatment many customers give to the people serving them, whether it is in an ethnic shish kebab fast food or a pub, it takes the server a lot of child-psychology/ anger management therapist experience to go through a day's work.
if you think it is no responsibility, you obviously like most politicians have not done commoners' work
moreover, many service people are students who pay their own way through university
and they are not just no qualification types you imply...
even the guy at the parking lot , some of them no doubt have more qualification than you
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cathyslife on April 03, 2015, 18:04
I agree with you that things like health insurance and education shouldn't be free, but how can a kid just graduating from college afford to pay housing, auto, health insurance, student loans, etc. on $7.00/hr? If he has an education, he should be able to get a better paying job. But that isn't going to happen instantaneously, for most. A huge local ad agency here hires graphic designers, requires a bachelors degree, and pays $25,000/yr. starting salary. That isn't much more over minimum wage. But management all drive BMWs and live in half a million dollar homes.
y

I graduated from college, and started at Disney making $7.35 working in the parks.  I lived with my roommate in a $600 a month 2 bedroom.  When I turned full time, 3 months later, I got health insurance.  We went to nickel beer night.  Eventually I quit my full time to go part time, and had two other part time jobs, until I got into Feature Animation.  So, yes, you can do it.


When was that? A number of years ago. I did it, too. Things are a lot different now. A lot.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 03, 2015, 20:48
I agree with you that things like health insurance and education shouldn't be free, but how can a kid just graduating from college afford to pay housing, auto, health insurance, student loans, etc. on $7.00/hr? If he has an education, he should be able to get a better paying job. But that isn't going to happen instantaneously, for most. A huge local ad agency here hires graphic designers, requires a bachelors degree, and pays $25,000/yr. starting salary. That isn't much more over minimum wage. But management all drive BMWs and live in half a million dollar homes.

I graduated from college, and started at Disney making $7.35 working in the parks.  I lived with my roommate in a $600 a month 2 bedroom.  When I turned full time, 3 months later, I got health insurance.  We went to nickel beer night.  Eventually I quit my full time to go part time, and had two other part time jobs, until I got into Feature Animation.  So, yes, you can do it.

Looking back now- we might have a harder life now than we had while in college  :)

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 03, 2015, 20:51

Your facts are little more than spin. They're assumptions based on a biased viewpoint. I was not a privileged person like you were. I had to do military service to pay for my education. But you don't even have to do that. You can apply for grants or use scholarships to go to technical school to learn a useful trade that will guarantee that you will never have to work for minimum wage. In the state where I live, all you need to do is graduate from high school with a C average and you get to go to technical school for FREE.

Those are facts. Minimum wage is not supposed to be a living wage. If it were, every lazy person out there would just go flip burgers and our economy would go in the toilet.

"According to Bloomberg, college tuition and fees have increased 1,120 percent since records began in 1978.

Using this chart to explain its findings, Bloomberg reports that the rate of increase in college costs has been 'four times faster than the increase in the consumer price index.' It also notes that 'medical expenses have climbed 601 percent, while the price of food has increased 244 percent over the same period.'"

The cost of a college education has increased more than 1,000% since 1978, while the minimum wage has increased about 275%.

You can apply for grants or scholarships, but there's no guarantee you'll get them. And everyone can't serve in the military. You can't even get a student loan unless you qualify—I couldn't.

I'm not sure why you are so adamantly opposed to the minimum wage simply keeping pace with the economy.

Because it makes no sense to have the same minimum wage in areas of the country with vastly different costs of living. City leaders in San Francisco can thump their chests all they want about raising the minimum wage there to $15 an hour, but that amount has less spending potential than $7.25 an hour where I live.

All I've seen from people with views similar to yours is demagoguery about sticking it to corporations and the "oligarchs" who run small pizza shops. It's garbage.

Did you try to serve in the military to pay for school? Did you make that effort? I doubt it. Fact is, people who think they're stuck earning minimum wage haven't made the effort needed to get a job that pays more than minimum wage. If they did, fewer people would be available for those jobs and the demand would increase the pay.

No, I have no interest in serving in the military. But since I didn't do EXACTLY what you did, I didn't make an effort. Working 40 hours a week and taking 18 credits a semester in two majors is not making an effort, to you. Amazing.

And I don't understand how requiring companies to pay a minimum wage that simply keeps pace with inflation is "sticking it" to corporations. CEOs make higher and ever higher salaries while wages for workers have stagnated. The gulf between them grows every day. Corporations are raking in record profits off the backs of their workforce. They're sticking it to workers and have been for decades—not the other way around. Yet you feel sorry for them. 

Pizza shop guy will just have to raise prices. How much is a pizza where you live? You think people can't afford to pay a buck more? Move to a place with lower rent, then.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: michaeldb on April 03, 2015, 21:33
I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement.

I suspect the 'political statement' theory is true. But it's also true about the costs of flour, coffee, labor and everything else: When businesses have to pay more to be in business, they have to raise prices or else operate at a loss.

If costs of labor go up 15%, then most of what businesses buy will go up (suppliers eventually have to pay higher labor costs too). The result is that employees make more money, but the things they buy cost more. All that has really happened is inflation. Unfortunately gov can't create new wealth by passing laws.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 03, 2015, 22:28
I agree with you that things like health insurance and education shouldn't be free, but how can a kid just graduating from college afford to pay housing, auto, health insurance, student loans, etc. on $7.00/hr? If he has an education, he should be able to get a better paying job. But that isn't going to happen instantaneously, for most. A huge local ad agency here hires graphic designers, requires a bachelors degree, and pays $25,000/yr. starting salary. That isn't much more over minimum wage. But management all drive BMWs and live in half a million dollar homes.

I graduated from college, and started at Disney making $7.35 working in the parks.  I lived with my roommate in a $600 a month 2 bedroom.  When I turned full time, 3 months later, I got health insurance.  We went to nickel beer night.  Eventually I quit my full time to go part time, and had two other part time jobs, until I got into Feature Animation.  So, yes, you can do it.

You deserve credit for your hard work, but your in your 40s, right?  Stagnant wages, much higher rents and cost of living, combine with poor job market are much worse for millennials than for the generation x and baby boom.  You would have had a harder time of it if you were 20 now than you did back then, no matter how smart and hard working you are.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 03, 2015, 22:34
The plot thickens-

EATTLE -- Two popular Seattle restaurant owners reversed course Friday, saying they would not institute surcharges to help offset changes to the city's new minimum wage law.
Tom Douglas, who owns more than a dozen restaurants across Seattle, and Chris Linker, co-owner of Belltown's Black Bottle, both cited public outcry in removing 2 percent surcharges instituted this week.
 
"It was very clear instead of polling my team and myself I should've polled my customers first," Douglas said Friday. "People that thought I should just increase my prices and stop whining far outnumbered the people - like 15 to 1 - that liked seeing it broken out."
 
Douglas' restaurants, which include Serious Pie, Palace Kitchen, and Dahlia Lounge, tacked on the 2 percent "wage equity surcharge" Wednesday, when the first stage of Seattle's new minimum wage law took effect. The ordinance will eventually raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour.
 
"I think first and foremost we're merchants and we're here to serve the public. This is a response to what we believe they want most," said Chris Linker, co-owner and managing partner at Black Bottle, which had also introduced a surcharge. "We're grateful the feedback. We've heard from the public. They will no longer see a surcharge on their bill."
 
Other restaurants have said they would raise prices in order to accommodate the new city law.
Ivar's Salmon House has raised prices by 21 percent to pay for a $15 minimum wage for all workers. In exchange, the restaurant will no longer encourage tipping, owners said.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 04, 2015, 00:54
the real issue i've seen in any country i visited, rich or poor, is the cost of housing.

and governments are doing absolutely nothing about this, actually they all refuse to build fair priced council homes for the poors.

as for employers soon they will ask for a master's degree even to grill burgers or to clean toilets, that's exactly the trend i'm witnessing now apart in jobs where "soft skills" are in high demand (sales in particular).

these are the direct result of governments abdicating from their natural roles and becoming a puppet of the ruling plutocrats.

where it will lead ? to high criminality, to total corruption, and ultimately to civil war.



Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 04, 2015, 05:48
I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement.

I suspect the 'political statement' theory is true. But it's also true about the costs of flour, coffee, labor and everything else: When businesses have to pay more to be in business, they have to raise prices or else operate at a loss.

If costs of labor go up 15%, then most of what businesses buy will go up (suppliers eventually have to pay higher labor costs too). The result is that employees make more money, but the things they buy cost more. All that has really happened is inflation. Unfortunately gov can't create new wealth by passing laws.

Yes, prices will go up. But they won't go up as much as salaries will rise. Payroll is just one expense of running a business. Rent, for example, won't double overnight. Equipment has already been purchased. And I'm glad to see the public backlash. Do business owners think people will want to see some poor working person's slight minimum wage increase broken out on their bill? Customers interact with staff, not business owners, most of the time. So customers will have sympathy for the people they know and see every day.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 04, 2015, 08:58
I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement.

The result is that employees make more money, but the things they buy cost more. All that has really happened is inflation. Unfortunately gov can't create new wealth by passing laws.

So true! Moreover, this is also a political tool to attract votes. The government is printing money (quantitative easing). The paper is used to raise minimum wages, but the market forces will also drive the cost of living up.
People are tricked to believe that they earn more, when in fact they end up spending even more.
Inflation is a hidden tax most people don't see. Printing money, raising minumum wages with it, only make the banks richer, because the banks are the first to get the new money from the central bank. By the time the new money trickles down to common people, the prices would have already eaten up all the "gains".
As soon as common people realise that the prices have risen again, more money will be printed to fake another wage increase.
This is one of the reason why "richer get richer" and politicians get elected.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: sgoodwin4813 on April 04, 2015, 09:35
Interesting discussion and we will see how it all plays out.  I doubt the place raising prices by 21% really had their costs go up by that much, and it sounds like their customers are mostly supporting labor.  In general I don't have a lot of sympathy for companies whining about increasing costs while dramatically increasing the pay of their CEOs.  For example, a couple of years ago McDonald's increased CEO pay over three times despite decreasing sales (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/mcdonalds-ceo-pay_n_3070833.html? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/mcdonalds-ceo-pay_n_3070833.html?)).  How can they justify that?  CEO compensation rates are made by other CEOs or retired CEOs who sit on their boards - and get paid handsomely for a few meetings a year.  It's obscene.  When the CEO of McDonald's gets paid more than $27 million in a year I certainly think they can give a bit more to their employees.  It's the same with the cable companies - they always raise rates and complain about rising costs while their CEOs get $15-20 million a year.  I would think you could survive off the first couple of million and there are plenty of equally qualified people who would do just as well or better for a paltry 4 or 5 million.  If they want to cut costs they should start at the top.  Then they could pay their rank-and-file employees more, who would stimulate the economy by spending most of what they get, rather than giving more to people who don't need it.  They will also find that by paying employes more they will have less turnover, less theft and much more loyalty when they need to ask for something extra.  Progressive leaders know this already and that is why most of those companies are thriving.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on April 04, 2015, 10:49
I guess I get bothered by entitlement attitudes. You're not supposed to be given anything, other than the freedom to make a way for yourself. At least that's the way I see things. I understand other people see things differently and think things like health insurance or free education should be a right. I just don't. I think those things should earned.

I guess I'll be getting negatives also but I feel the same way.

I believe that market supply and demand should drive compensation. The position I hold in my day job is in very high demand with very few people available to fill the role. As a result, the pay is much higher than similar roles and I get constant desperate calls from recruiters who can't fill the roles. Years ago I decided my career at that time wasn't going anywhere. So I researched and found an opportunity where I saw job growth with few skilled people. I went to technical schools, studied hard, got certifications, hunted down employers, and created a new and better career for myself. I didn't stumble on that job. No one handed it to me. I didn't take a low paying job and demand I make more money. The reason minimum wage jobs are low is because supply of people can do them is so high.

Today, here in the US there are so many safety nets provided by the government that people are becoming lax because they know somebody will bail them out. While I have no sympathy for greedy businesses I also have no sympathy for people who don't make enough money or can't find a job. I have two jobs. If you don't even have one job you are doing something wrong and need to make changes. If you don't want to change that should not be my problem to need to contribute my hard earned money toward you.

I realize some people have unbelievably bad fortune and need a hand occasionally and I feel for them. Maybe their spouse died, insurance refused to pay massive medical bills, or they were in a debilitating accident. But I personally see a lot more people who are fully capable of working and don't seem to be truly making much effort to improve their situation.

To me this is common sense. And maybe very few people share my views. If there are no jobs for your skills it's time to get different skills. If you don't make enough money find out what you need to do to get a raise. If you can't get a raise get a different job. If you can't get a different job get a second job. If you can't get a second job cut back on spending. If there are no jobs in your town move. If you can't move find an internet based job. And on and on. If you've sincerely exhausted every avenue I feel for you. But if you really haven't sincerely exhausted all avenues and are just unwilling to do anything other than demand more money I have no sympathy.

ETA: Totally forgot to finish my point here. Guess what would happen if everybody working a minimum wage job improved themselves and moved on to better jobs so that there were no people left to fill the minimum wage jobs? Exactly. Those companies would be forced to make changes (increase pay, offer insurance, etc) to attract people to want to take the job.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 04, 2015, 10:49
I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement.

I suspect the 'political statement' theory is true. But it's also true about the costs of flour, coffee, labor and everything else: When businesses have to pay more to be in business, they have to raise prices or else operate at a loss.

If costs of labor go up 15%, then most of what businesses buy will go up (suppliers eventually have to pay higher labor costs too). The result is that employees make more money, but the things they buy cost more. All that has really happened is inflation. Unfortunately gov can't create new wealth by passing laws.

Yes, prices will go up. But they won't go up as much as salaries will rise. Payroll is just one expense of running a business. Rent, for example, won't double overnight. Equipment has already been purchased. And I'm glad to see the public backlash. Do business owners think people will want to see some poor working person's slight minimum wage increase broken out on their bill? Customers interact with staff, not business owners, most of the time. So customers will have sympathy for the people they know and see every day.

You clearly don't own a business that deals in retail in any significant way. Customers go to where they feel they get the best value, and lot of them think the best value is the cheapest. They don't care how much the employees are paid.

Why do you think foreign car makers such as Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen, Kia and Hyundai build all their plants in the Southeast? They do it because the labor costs are cheaper. And now American workers also have to compete with foreign workers who make $1 a day, and you want to price small businesses out of business because you hate corporations? Left-wing thinking is so nonsensical and bankrupt. Guess what? Unemployment doesn't pay more than minimum wage, and it doesn't last forever.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 04, 2015, 10:53
Interesting discussion and we will see how it all plays out.  I doubt the place raising prices by 21% really had their costs go up by that much, and it sounds like their customers are mostly supporting labor.  In general I don't have a lot of sympathy for companies whining about increasing costs while dramatically increasing the pay of their CEOs.  For example, a couple of years ago McDonald's increased CEO pay over three times despite decreasing sales ([url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/mcdonalds-ceo-pay_n_3070833.html?[/url] ([url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/mcdonalds-ceo-pay_n_3070833.html?[/url])).  How can they justify that?  CEO compensation rates are made by other CEOs or retired CEOs who sit on their boards - and get paid handsomely for a few meetings a year.  It's obscene.  When the CEO of McDonald's gets paid more than $27 million in a year I certainly think they can give a bit more to their employees.  It's the same with the cable companies - they always raise rates and complain about rising costs while their CEOs get $15-20 million a year.  I would think you could survive off the first couple of million and there are plenty of equally qualified people who would do just as well or better for a paltry 4 or 5 million.  If they want to cut costs they should start at the top.  Then they could pay their rank-and-file employees more, who would stimulate the economy by spending most of what they get, rather than giving more to people who don't need it.  They will also find that by paying employes more they will have less turnover, less theft and much more loyalty when they need to ask for something extra.  Progressive leaders know this already and that is why most of those companies are thriving.


The thing you don't understand is that a lot of those McDonald's are franchises, owned by people running a small business. They aren't rich CEOs. They're people living in small towns trying to squeeze as much as they can out of their budgets so they can pay their employees and themselves. People who own small businesses often work 7 days a week for no pay in the hopes that they will turn a profit. And you all are talking about hitting them even harder.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 04, 2015, 11:41
The thing you don't understand is that a lot of those McDonald's are franchises, owned by people running a small business. They aren't rich CEOs. They're people living in small towns trying to squeeze as much as they can out of their budgets so they can pay their employees and themselves. People who own small businesses often work 7 days a week for no pay in the hopes that they will turn a profit. And you all are talking about hitting them even harder.
Exactly, but even more: most of the big corporations CEOs are not the owners of these corpoarations. They are employed by the owners or shareholders to successfully drive their business.
The owners know exactly how much their CEO work is worth. Don't you think they would love to pay their CEO less? Sure they do! But if this how much the market dictates that a succesful CEO must be paid, then this is how much they have to dig in their pockets for, if they don't want their business to be run by the drunk of the town.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 04, 2015, 11:58
One main thing that a lot of the workers don't understand is the difference between cost of "living wage" and "minimum wage".  The living wage is what you need to have a decent life in that area so for example if you live in San Diego, California you would need around $30 an hour to have a good apartment and food on your table. In Louisville, Kentucky you would need $14 per hour to have the same standard of living.  Minimum wage was never intended to be 'Living wage'...   
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: etudiante_rapide on April 04, 2015, 12:00
the real issue i've seen in any country i visited, rich or poor, is the cost of housing.

and governments are doing absolutely nothing about this, actually they all refuse to build fair priced council homes for the poors.

as for employers soon they will ask for a master's degree even to grill burgers or to clean toilets, that's exactly the trend i'm witnessing now apart in jobs where "soft skills" are in high demand (sales in particular).

these are the direct result of governments abdicating from their natural roles and becoming a puppet of the ruling plutocrats.

where it will lead ? to high criminality, to total corruption, and ultimately to civil war.

where we are going as you said only beaureucrats and nepotismo will live a comfy life while the common people , esp those with huge students loan to repay , is more like what happened to the chinese in the dynasty era.  the whole country will be poor , while those in the forbidden city live a high and mighty life as the emperor picks all the young virgins from the countryside to be his maids and concubines.  i think it is already happening with africa where the only ppl eating well are the govt.
soon, the first world will run into this problem too, as the empire age begins in the (cough cough (free world).
as for having a MA to flip burgers, i think that is already happening as i know several graduates still flipping burgers. Too many qualified people with no jobs to go to, because the Union is too powerful.
They will not let the highly overpaid unqualified seniority ppl go. How much is the bus driver and underground transit workers minding the turnstiles paid???  some are actually earning as much as your kid with a degree , or the mechanic who is repairing your car.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on April 04, 2015, 12:11
One main thing that a lot of the workers don't understand is the difference between cost of "living wage" and "minimum wage".  The living wage is what you need to have a decent life in that area so for example if you live in San Diego, California you would need around $30 an hour to have a good apartment and food on your table. In Louisville, Kentucky you would need $14 per hour to have the same standard of living.  Minimum wage was never intended to be 'Living wage'...

If someone's earnings aren't high enough to match the living wage of the city what's the solution? Use the government to force higher pay? Or maybe let the market dictate who can afford to live there? Can't afford to live in ultra expensive San Diego or Seattle? Simple. The United States is huge with a lot of affordable options. Move to an area you can afford. Debate over.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 04, 2015, 13:36
One main thing that a lot of the workers don't understand is the difference between cost of "living wage" and "minimum wage".  The living wage is what you need to have a decent life in that area so for example if you live in San Diego, California you would need around $30 an hour to have a good apartment and food on your table. In Louisville, Kentucky you would need $14 per hour to have the same standard of living.  Minimum wage was never intended to be 'Living wage'...

If someone's earnings aren't high enough to match the living wage of the city what's the solution? Use the government to force higher pay? Or maybe let the market dictate who can afford to live there? Can't afford to live in ultra expensive San Diego or Seattle? Simple. The United States is huge with a lot of affordable options. Move to an area you can afford. Debate over.

Except that's not what people are doing. They just complain and expect someone else to fix their problems for them. That seems to be the way of things nowadays. I don't buy that there aren't opportunities for the next generation. There's plenty.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on April 04, 2015, 17:01
One main thing that a lot of the workers don't understand is the difference between cost of "living wage" and "minimum wage".  The living wage is what you need to have a decent life in that area so for example if you live in San Diego, California you would need around $30 an hour to have a good apartment and food on your table. In Louisville, Kentucky you would need $14 per hour to have the same standard of living.  Minimum wage was never intended to be 'Living wage'...

If someone's earnings aren't high enough to match the living wage of the city what's the solution? Use the government to force higher pay? Or maybe let the market dictate who can afford to live there? Can't afford to live in ultra expensive San Diego or Seattle? Simple. The United States is huge with a lot of affordable options. Move to an area you can afford. Debate over.

Except that's not what people are doing. They just complain and expect someone else to fix their problems for them. That seems to be the way of things nowadays. I don't buy that there aren't opportunities for the next generation. There's plenty.

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: michaeldb on April 04, 2015, 19:33
One main thing that a lot of the workers don't understand is the difference between cost of "living wage" and "minimum wage".  The living wage is what you need to have a decent life in that area so for example if you live in San Diego, California you would need around $30 an hour to have a good apartment and food on your table. In Louisville, Kentucky you would need $14 per hour to have the same standard of living.  Minimum wage was never intended to be 'Living wage'...

If someone's earnings aren't high enough to match the living wage of the city what's the solution? Use the government to force higher pay? Or maybe let the market dictate who can afford to live there? Can't afford to live in ultra expensive San Diego or Seattle? Simple. The United States is huge with a lot of affordable options. Move to an area you can afford. Debate over.

Except that's not what people are doing. They just complain and expect someone else to fix their problems for them. That seems to be the way of things nowadays. I don't buy that there aren't opportunities for the next generation. There's plenty.

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 04, 2015, 19:47

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PeterChigmaroff on April 04, 2015, 20:49

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Batman on April 04, 2015, 22:00

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Plato?
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 04, 2015, 23:37
Quote
Plato?

Socrates (469–399 B.C.)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 05, 2015, 00:00
Dude that's So-Crates

Quote
Plato?

Socrates (469–399 B.C.)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 00:26

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

yes but only as long as the US limits the number of H1B visas and as the EU sticks with draconian work laws, the whole supply/demand is totally artificial and if it was for the employers they would flood the market with millions of skilled but low-paid immigrants.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 00:33
Yes I'm sure. It's a document issued by the swedish police. Is that reliable enough?
Now good luck finding a single Guardian article about it.

The introduction to the police document (via google translate) says: "In Sweden , there are currently 55 geographic areas where local criminal networks is considered to have a negative impact on the local community . The areas are spread across 22 cities - from big cities to small towns and is regarded as socio- economically disadvantaged . The vast criminal law covers of the local community appears to be linked to the social context in the areas of rather than on the willingness of criminals to take control and auditing in the local community ."
That doesn't seem like an admission of no-go areas, more of a guide to areas where more action is needed. However, as you presumably read Swedish and have read the report you refer to, could you point me to the section of the report that admits these are "no go areas" and I can google-translate from the original for myself?
I like to check the basis of unexpected assertions for myself, in line with Sagan's mantra that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 00:40
If someone's earnings aren't high enough to match the living wage of the city what's the solution? Use the government to force higher pay? Or maybe let the market dictate who can afford to live there? Can't afford to live in ultra expensive San Diego or Seattle? Simple. The United States is huge with a lot of affordable options. Move to an area you can afford. Debate over.

it's slavery, pure and simple.
actually the slaves got free accomodation and free meals at least, that's why slavery was abolished since it was becoming too expensive.

what's your solution ? living in a trailer camp and renting an RV ?
that's not very cheap either once you check the costs involved.

in europe we don't even have that option in most of the cases, they made sure to make it illegal almost everywhere.


Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 00:49
Except that's not what people are doing. They just complain and expect someone else to fix their problems for them. That seems to be the way of things nowadays. I don't buy that there aren't opportunities for the next generation. There's plenty.

i totally disagree.

until the 50s the salary of a worker or even of a clerk in a shop was enough to rent a house and feed a wife and a couple kids, now it's barely enough for yourself and to get a roof on your head, the buying power in the West is reaching the point where having a single kid is now a luxury and if you lose you job while you're over 50 you're basically Fk'ed and nobody will hire you.

20% of the workforce is probably doing fine while the remaining 80% is struggling to pay the bills and constantly kept in fear of being fired.

while we can all agree the social welfare in places like Sweden or Germany are excessive and prone to abuse there's a good reason they're still going strong.

when unemployment in america will reach the point of non-return it will be obvious to everyone that it's a failed model and unsustainable.

as witnessed already so many times in history, it will be followed by riots, uprisings, and civil wars.
in the case of the US i predict it will be both a class war and a race war.

technology is making humans obsolete and redundant, there's no fix for that, just look at Japan for instance ..
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 00:49
Quote
Plato?

Socrates (469–399 B.C.)

Neither - it's a well-known fake. So, too, is "Times are bad, children no longer obey their parents - and everybody is writing a book", falsely attributed to Cicero and various ancient civilisations.  A pity, really.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 05, 2015, 00:52
In the UK you can't even work, without the employer filing for you. And if you want to start your own business (as a non-resicdent) You need proof of finances and assert that you will provide at least two new jobs.

If a prospective employee is not otherwise exempt from the need for an immigration clearance to work in the UK then it will be necessary to apply for a work permit.

The ability to obtain a work permit is measured against a number of criteria including:

• whether there is a genuine vacancy for an employee in this country

• whether the skills, qualifications and experience needed to do the job meet specific requirements;

• whether the person is suitably qualified or experienced to do the job on offer and whether there is a need for them to do the job on offer; and

• whether there are suitably qualified or experienced 'resident workers'.

A work permit application is made by the employer to Work Permits UK.


I think people need to see, what it's like elsewhere, before they start pointing fingers at the US.

As for employment in the US and opportunity. There is free education. If someone dropped out, there is free education, to get caught up. Many jobs and companies will train people who are willing to apply and learn. There are on the job training programs, internships, and other programs.

Minimum wage is not a guaranteed living wage. It's just a wage. If people want more, they can work and earn more.

Look at the people here? Self employed for the majority, or supplemental income. Earn based on their own efforts, education and creativity. There are no handouts in Microstock! Are there? (not even a fair percentage in many cases)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 01:00
Minimum wage is not a guaranteed living wage. It's just a wage. If people want more, they can work and earn more.

Look at the people here? Self employed for the majority, or supplemental income. Earn based on their own efforts, education and creativity. There are no handouts in Microstock! Are there? (not even a fair percentage in many cases)

all the odds are against the jobseekers : housing prices are totally overpriced while salaries are being kept artificially low and the government isn't moving a finger.

this is self-destructive scenario, it's also the reason now the right-wing is booming all across europe because people finally realized the wave of immigrants of the last decades totally destroyed the job market and at the same time the citizens have been betrayed by the housing policies and the welfare state all favoring foreigners instead of locals.

the issue is therefore systemic, and there's no fix for it as so far nobody ever came up with an economic model that guarantees high employment rates, even in the USSR they never managed to reach full employment.


Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 01:24
Except that's not what people are doing. They just complain and expect someone else to fix their problems for them. That seems to be the way of things nowadays. I don't buy that there aren't opportunities for the next generation. There's plenty.

i totally disagree.

until the 50s the salary of a worker or even of a clerk in a shop was enough to rent a house and feed a wife and a couple kids, now it's barely enough for yourself and to get a roof on your head, the buying power in the West is reaching the point where having a single kid is now a luxury

If you lived today the way people lived in the 50s - half the money going on food, most of the other half going on rent, two suits and three shirts in your wardrobe, two pairs of shoes, no TV only a radio, hardly any labour-saving appliances, no computerised devices and perhaps much of your spare time spent growing vegetables - then you would probably keep a wife and a couple of kids quite easily (assuming you could find a woman happy to hand-wash and put your clothes through the wringer, while darning your socks, cleaning the house using materials such as vinegar, lemon juice and bicarb and dusting with cast-off [but thoroughly boiled] underwear). And I know people who were made to hide behind the couch some weeks when the rent-collector or the tallyman called in the late 50s, so there were plenty of families struggling to get by.

20% of the workforce is probably doing fine while the remaining 80% is struggling to pay the bills and constantly kept in fear of being fired.
True, as businesses have become bigger and more impersonal job security has become more tenuous.

technology is making humans obsolete and redundant, there's no fix for that, just look at Japan for instance ..

Technology destroys some jobs but in doing so it frees-up people to do other things. By comparison with today, the 50s were almost technology-free yet the massive growth in technological capability and the massive growth in the human population (more than doubled) has not been matched by a massive growth in unemployment. So I don't think there is a clear link.

My doom-and-gloom scenario is rapid climate change destabilising societies - and I don't see how it's going to be prevented though it may take a century for the full impact to be apparent. Syria is probably one of the first climate wars.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 06:05
Technology destroys some jobs but in doing so it frees-up people to do other things. By comparison with today, the 50s were almost technology-free yet the massive growth in technological capability and the massive growth in the human population (more than doubled) has not been matched by a massive growth in unemployment. So I don't think there is a clear link.


unemployment in the west is also exarcebated by de-industrialization caused by outsourcing in the third world and these jobs will never come back, the UK is the living example of this and London in particular can give you an outlook on what's to come next at a broader level.

on top of outsourcing you've millions of unskilled immigratings picking up all the entry level and low-paid jobs leaving nothing for the locals and keeping wages below the poverty line and most of the previous protectionist laws have been dismantled in favor of a globalist open-door agenda which only favored the chinese exports so far while our industry have been killed as they couldn't compete with goods priced 10x times cheaper, this is especially true for high-tech ... believe it or not we had a very good high tech industry in EU until the '80s, now it's all gone to the dogs, fist because of the japanese, then the taiwanese, and now the chinese.

moral of the story, western capitalism is totally stacked against its own citizens and they've also turned into full blown police states.

as the cold war is gone and the menace of communism and USSR is gone, the West has no more reason to provide the same welfare and benefits we enjoyed until the '80s, every single social net will be removed one by one, little by little.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 06:23
cleaning the house using materials such as vinegar, lemon juice and bicarb and dusting with cast-off [but thoroughly boiled] underwear). And I know people who were made to hide behind the couch some weeks when the rent-collector or the tallyman called in the late 50s, so there were plenty of families struggling to get by.

hahaha, i can certainly learn to wash my home with vinegar and bicarb if this allows me to buy/rent at decent prices.

moreover, i'm also complaining about the cost of farm land and the insane regualations the EU put on it, for instance it's now forbidden to put mobile homes in a farm land, this includes RVs, campers, even your own car in some cases, depending on the country, in short we're forced to be enslaved in renting a home or paying a mortgage for decades, no way out and no other options.

i predict more and more people will go live "off the grid", probably on illegal land too, just like the gypsies or the survivalists.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 06:26

unemployment in the west is also exarcebated by de-industrialization caused by outsourcing in the third world and these jobs will never come back, the UK is the living example of this



But UK unemployment is now around the lowest it has been in the last 30 years. http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk:de&hl=en&dl=en# (http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk:de&hl=en&dl=en#)!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:uk&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

As for the welfare state, it wasn't created out of a fear of the USSR it was the first Labour government that set it up, in line with its socialist beliefs. It's being eroded because politicians believe it costs too much and is not efficiently targeted, not because the USSR vanished a generation ago.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 06:33
cleaning the house using materials such as vinegar, lemon juice and bicarb and dusting with cast-off [but thoroughly boiled] underwear). And I know people who were made to hide behind the couch some weeks when the rent-collector or the tallyman called in the late 50s, so there were plenty of families struggling to get by.

hahaha, i can certainly learn to wash my home with vinegar and bicarb if this allows me to buy/rent at decent prices.

My point is that on current wages it is largely lifestyle choices that make prices seem "indecent".  I'll agree that UK house prices have been inflated and it would be better if they fell (this is largely the work of mortgage lenders, since increasing the multiple you can borrow at automatically seems to feed into an increase in prices, tightening borrowing - or raising interest rates - depresses prices) but what you can afford still depends largely on your priorities and if you are austere in other areas you can afford more for the rent or mortgage.   
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 05, 2015, 06:39
I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement.

I suspect the 'political statement' theory is true. But it's also true about the costs of flour, coffee, labor and everything else: When businesses have to pay more to be in business, they have to raise prices or else operate at a loss.

If costs of labor go up 15%, then most of what businesses buy will go up (suppliers eventually have to pay higher labor costs too). The result is that employees make more money, but the things they buy cost more. All that has really happened is inflation. Unfortunately gov can't create new wealth by passing laws.

Yes, prices will go up. But they won't go up as much as salaries will rise. Payroll is just one expense of running a business. Rent, for example, won't double overnight. Equipment has already been purchased. And I'm glad to see the public backlash. Do business owners think people will want to see some poor working person's slight minimum wage increase broken out on their bill? Customers interact with staff, not business owners, most of the time. So customers will have sympathy for the people they know and see every day.

You clearly don't own a business that deals in retail in any significant way. Customers go to where they feel they get the best value, and lot of them think the best value is the cheapest. They don't care how much the employees are paid.

Why do you think foreign car makers such as Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen, Kia and Hyundai build all their plants in the Southeast? They do it because the labor costs are cheaper. And now American workers also have to compete with foreign workers who make $1 a day, and you want to price small businesses out of business because you hate corporations? Left-wing thinking is so nonsensical and bankrupt. Guess what? Unemployment doesn't pay more than minimum wage, and it doesn't last forever.

Many people think "value" means "good quality at a fair price," and actually do care about how much people are paid. If some people weren't willing to pay more for better quality everyone would own a Kia.

Yes, foreign car manufacturers such as Mercedes and BMW absolutely take advantage of the lower wages people are willing to accept in the Southeast—where people and corporations get a disproportionately higher share of federal aid and government handouts—then turn around sell those cars to people like me, who get less back in federal "welfare" than they pay in federal taxes. (That includes corporate "welfare.")

I love to hear people who live in the "taker" states complain about other people feeling "entitled" when I live in the state that gets the least amount back from federal taxes of any in the nation. We support you with our taxes. (And that includes the military and the GI Bill.)

Why would I want to put corporations or small businesses out of business? I've worked for both. I've also owned my own retail business. All I'm saying is pay people a minimum wage that keeps pace with the cost of living. Parity. That's all. Assume the cost of your payroll is going to rise each year right along with all your other costs.

If people were going to "coast" on minimum wage they would have done that back in 1978, when minimum wage was worth a lot more than it is now. But somehow that didn't happen.

I really don't get why you're so angry about people being paid an amount of minimum wage that's equivalent to the minimum wage from 40 years ago. Do you own a pizza shop on the side?
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 05, 2015, 07:58

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: sgoodwin4813 on April 05, 2015, 08:03
Interesting discussion and we will see how it all plays out.  I doubt the place raising prices by 21% really had their costs go up by that much, and it sounds like their customers are mostly supporting labor.  In general I don't have a lot of sympathy for companies whining about increasing costs while dramatically increasing the pay of their CEOs.  For example, a couple of years ago McDonald's increased CEO pay over three times despite decreasing sales ([url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/mcdonalds-ceo-pay_n_3070833.html?[/url] ([url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/12/mcdonalds-ceo-pay_n_3070833.html?[/url])).  How can they justify that?  CEO compensation rates are made by other CEOs or retired CEOs who sit on their boards - and get paid handsomely for a few meetings a year.  It's obscene.  When the CEO of McDonald's gets paid more than $27 million in a year I certainly think they can give a bit more to their employees.  It's the same with the cable companies - they always raise rates and complain about rising costs while their CEOs get $15-20 million a year.  I would think you could survive off the first couple of million and there are plenty of equally qualified people who would do just as well or better for a paltry 4 or 5 million.  If they want to cut costs they should start at the top.  Then they could pay their rank-and-file employees more, who would stimulate the economy by spending most of what they get, rather than giving more to people who don't need it.  They will also find that by paying employes more they will have less turnover, less theft and much more loyalty when they need to ask for something extra.  Progressive leaders know this already and that is why most of those companies are thriving.


The thing you don't understand is that a lot of those McDonald's are franchises, owned by people running a small business. They aren't rich CEOs. They're people living in small towns trying to squeeze as much as they can out of their budgets so they can pay their employees and themselves. People who own small businesses often work 7 days a week for no pay in the hopes that they will turn a profit. And you all are talking about hitting them even harder.


No, I understand that completely, that's why their recent raising of minimum wages only applied to 10% of their workforce.  The franchising system is designed so that owners can make a good profit, otherwise nobody would do it and the fact that 90% of all McDonald's stores are franchises attests to that.  In an interview with a franchise owner in New Zealand who was retiring and selling his stores (http://www.business-opportunities.biz/2014/07/24/what-its-really-like-to-own-a-mcdonalds-franchise/ (http://www.business-opportunities.biz/2014/07/24/what-its-really-like-to-own-a-mcdonalds-franchise/)), he said he was making well over US $500 K per year, so still plenty of room to pay his employees a little more and live very well himself.  He also said he typically put in around 48 hours a week, 5-6 of them a day working hard.  Here's a quote from the article (it was question and answer format):

In that time did you make enough money to retire? I know someone who started up his own comic book store and in only ten years he claimed he made enough money to retire and shut the store down and sold everything off.

After having my first store for 5 years, I could have retired and lived nicely.

So after owning one franchise for 5 years he thought he could have retired and lived a nice life.  In the US they say franchise owners can expect to earn at least 10% of total sales and the average sales amount per store is $2.6 million so the owners should be pocketing at least $250 K per year (per store!).  Of course they work very hard to achieve that and the hard part is coming up with the initial investment, but your supposition that franchise owners have to squeeze costs to barely eke out a living is not supported by reality.

I agree that salaries in general should be determined by supply and demand and that those with better skills and abilities should be paid more.  This works well for many jobs but there are severe problems at the top and bottom ends.  CEOs, sports coaches and many others often make far more than they deserve.  At many US universities nowadays the most highly paid people on campus are the football and basketball coaches, which is obscene.  The person at the top certainly makes a difference and they deserve to be paid well, but I'm sure there are many other people who could do just as well or better for half those salaries if they were allowed to submit bids for those jobs.  At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.

The minimum wage was not meant to be a living wage, just as social security was not meant to be a pension plan.  However, it should have some measure to keep up with inflation and to protect those at the lowest levels so that they are not taken advantage of by those in power.  Ideally, only those starting out would be paid minimum wage because others should be paid more as they increase skills and experience, but in reality this does not seem to happen.

Companies are always trying to cut costs and of course the CEOs have to if they want to keep shareholders happy and keep their jobs.  We've had a big period of outsourcing to maintain profits by sending jobs to China, India and other countries with lower labor costs.  That works great for individual companies for the short term.  However, that means that huge amounts of salaries are being paid out to people in other countries, who are not going to spend their money in the US (or other developed countries), so eventually your own sales dry up and your economy collapses.  It's better in the long run to pay more and put the money in the pockets of people at home, even if it means a decrease in short-term profits.  The leaders in Seattle seem to have realized this and I suspect the city will benefit in the end (to get back to the OP).
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: sgoodwin4813 on April 05, 2015, 08:12
Minimum wage is not a guaranteed living wage. It's just a wage. If people want more, they can work and earn more.

Yes, exactly. 

For several summers while in school I worked at a large theme park where they paid below minimum wage because the jobs were seasonal.  The low wages were very annoying but we knew this going in and you could work extra shifts to make more money if you wanted.  At one stretch I worked every day for 6 weeks and was averaging over 60 hours a week to make money for school.  At least it was pleasant work and overall you could make more by working extra hours.  That was fine for a summer job but anyone working full time should be paid at least minimum wage. 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 08:47
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.

exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 05, 2015, 09:02
I wonder if the business owners who are tacking on a visible surcharge for the wage increase also tacked on visible surcharges when the cost of coffee went up, or the cost of flour, or the cost of every other thing they buy on a daily basis. Seems to me like they are making more of a political statement.


I suspect the 'political statement' theory is true. But it's also true about the costs of flour, coffee, labor and everything else: When businesses have to pay more to be in business, they have to raise prices or else operate at a loss.

If costs of labor go up 15%, then most of what businesses buy will go up (suppliers eventually have to pay higher labor costs too). The result is that employees make more money, but the things they buy cost more. All that has really happened is inflation. Unfortunately gov can't create new wealth by passing laws.


Yes, prices will go up. But they won't go up as much as salaries will rise. Payroll is just one expense of running a business. Rent, for example, won't double overnight. Equipment has already been purchased. And I'm glad to see the public backlash. Do business owners think people will want to see some poor working person's slight minimum wage increase broken out on their bill? Customers interact with staff, not business owners, most of the time. So customers will have sympathy for the people they know and see every day.


You clearly don't own a business that deals in retail in any significant way. Customers go to where they feel they get the best value, and lot of them think the best value is the cheapest. They don't care how much the employees are paid.

Why do you think foreign car makers such as Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen, Kia and Hyundai build all their plants in the Southeast? They do it because the labor costs are cheaper. And now American workers also have to compete with foreign workers who make $1 a day, and you want to price small businesses out of business because you hate corporations? Left-wing thinking is so nonsensical and bankrupt. Guess what? Unemployment doesn't pay more than minimum wage, and it doesn't last forever.


Many people think "value" means "good quality at a fair price," and actually do care about how much people are paid. If some people weren't willing to pay more for better quality everyone would own a Kia.

Yes, foreign car manufacturers such as Mercedes and BMW absolutely take advantage of the lower wages people are willing to accept in the Southeast—where people and corporations get a disproportionately higher share of federal aid and government handouts—then turn around sell those cars to people like me, who get less back in federal "welfare" than they pay in federal taxes. (That includes corporate "welfare.")

I love to hear people who live in the "taker" states complain about other people feeling "entitled" when I live in the state that gets the least amount back from federal taxes of any in the nation. We support you with our taxes. (And that includes the military and the GI Bill.)

Why would I want to put corporations or small businesses out of business? I've worked for both. I've also owned my own retail business. All I'm saying is pay people a minimum wage that keeps pace with the cost of living. Parity. That's all. Assume the cost of your payroll is going to rise each year right along with all your other costs.

If people were going to "coast" on minimum wage they would have done that back in 1978, when minimum wage was worth a lot more than it is now. But somehow that didn't happen.

I really don't get why you're so angry about people being paid an amount of minimum wage that's equivalent to the minimum wage from 40 years ago. Do you own a pizza shop on the side?


First of all, so-called "taker" states get more back than they put in because they have fewer wealthy people. It's leftwing thinking that set that system up, and it continues to do so. You only have people yourself to blame for that. The more you support "taxing the rich" the more money will leave the wealthiest areas and flow to middle and low income areas out of your state. I personally think that's unfair, but you continue to vote against your own interests.

Also, Kia cars are built in Georgia, which is not a taker state. It is about even with California and Massachusetts, but still offers a lower cost of living and lower local taxation. 
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/which-states-are-givers-and-which-are-takers/361668/)

I explained why I oppose an increase in federal minimum wage already. You just don't care enough to read what I say.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 09:02
My point is that on current wages it is largely lifestyle choices that make prices seem "indecent".  I'll agree that UK house prices have been inflated and it would be better if they fell (this is largely the work of mortgage lenders, since increasing the multiple you can borrow at automatically seems to feed into an increase in prices, tightening borrowing - or raising interest rates - depresses prices) but what you can afford still depends largely on your priorities and if you are austere in other areas you can afford more for the rent or mortgage.

sure but in practical terms i see for instance salaries in London for graphic designers set on a 15-25K pounds range that means what you can afford (one third of your salary on average) is 6-700 pounds per month and with that in London you can only expect a sh-itty student room with shared toilet ... and that's nothing i've seen ads for studio/assistant photographer at 12K/month ... how can you live with 12K in London ? that's impossible unless you already own your home or you supplement your full time job with freelance gigs.

living in a camper outside ? yes, that's an option but then it takes 2 hrs to commute and 15-20 pounds per day to rent your camper space in the camping so not a big saving unless you get some fat discounts.

i'm quite fascinated by alternative lifestyles since i've seen with my eyes several cultures here in the third world living with almost nothing but it just can't be exported in the West, everything has been banned or made illegal, even parking a camper/RV in europe's biggest cities is now illegal apart in parking lots designed for it which cost an arm and a leg (almost like renting a room), the governments are hellbent against anything that could compete with the ongoing housing scam, in some EU countries it's even forbidden to put a tent in farm land you own as by their burocracy it's considered a place where you can live full time  !

so this leaves squatting as only alternative and that's why it's so popular in UK and elsewhere.
what else these guys can afford ?

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 05, 2015, 09:08
But UK unemployment is now around the lowest it has been in the last 30 years. [url]http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk:de&hl=en&dl=en#[/url] ([url]http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z8o7pt6rd5uqa6_&met_y=unemployment_rate&idim=country:uk:de&hl=en&dl=en#[/url])!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=unemployment_rate&fdim_y=seasonality:sa&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country:uk&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

As for the welfare state, it wasn't created out of a fear of the USSR it was the first Labour government that set it up, in line with its socialist beliefs. It's being eroded because politicians believe it costs too much and is not efficiently targeted, not because the USSR vanished a generation ago.


they consider "empoyed" anyone doing any kind of random job, even if part time or paid like sh-it.
how many are actual in full time decently paid jobs ?

even in the germany they count the "minijobs" as jobs, but it's a fraud, a minijob can be maximum 400 euro/month ...

the fall of the USSR made sure that nothing and nobody could be politically strong enough to push euro governments towards pro-welfare policies, the communist parties in EU have pretty much disappeared apart in a few cases where they have less than 5% combined, they're totally irrilevant.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 05, 2015, 09:10
capitalism was over at the exact same moment when government used tax payer's money to save big private banks.

unfortunately we still don't have good system to replace it. socialism was much more unfair and was over long long time ago.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 05, 2015, 09:15
Quote
the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.

You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PeterChigmaroff on April 05, 2015, 11:10
Quote
the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.

You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.
There isn't much logic in taking an original argument about basic minimum wages in the US and comparing it to the system in North Korea.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 12:17

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 05, 2015, 12:28
For an 'Off Topic' subject this has turn into a very interesting string  :)


Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: etudiante_rapide on April 05, 2015, 13:10

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

yes but only as long as the US limits the number of H1B visas and as the EU sticks with draconian work laws, the whole supply/demand is totally artificial and if it was for the employers they would flood the market with millions of skilled but low-paid immigrants.

so where are you living??? a long time ago Enoch Powell had the same spite for immigrants
in Britain but no one in England wanted to work instead of collecting social assistance. The brown immigrant flooded England to work as garbage collectors, WC cleaners and maintenance,etc
Powell was pissedoff because they brown the white society.
these days, we also have low-paid immigrants like you call them coming from latin-am, eastern europe, etc
seems like everyone dislike the idea of immigrants. we forget sometimes that the first immigrants came to USA as cheap labor too, to build the railroad and they too were looked down upon by the settlers.
but before the settlers came, the land was actually already occupied by the native.
in india and other colonies, the same thing was happening when the cocky brits and spanish and portuguese considered themselves as the founder of the land long occupied by natives.

so, cut the crap about low paid immigrants flooding the nation.
to USA
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 05, 2015, 13:15
Quote
the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.

You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.
There isn't much logic in taking an original argument about basic minimum wages in the US and comparing it to the system in North Korea.

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.

You still have to have some government. It does no good to build a highway and have no rules for using it. All you'd get is chaos. At the same time, nobody wants a highway where you have to drive 35 mph all the time because some people aren't good at driving faster than that.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 05, 2015, 13:27

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: tickstock on April 05, 2015, 13:53

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
Seattle or Estonia or North Korea who can tell the difference? 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 05, 2015, 13:56

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: gbalex on April 05, 2015, 14:03
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
http://tinyurl.com/37q963 (http://tinyurl.com/37q963)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 05, 2015, 14:05

What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)

In which Eastern European country do you live?

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 05, 2015, 14:16

What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)

In which Eastern European country do you live?
Does it matter? Do you deny the above facts?
Sooner or later these will be the direct consequences of centralized planning, artificial price and salary fixing, or minimum wage laws, with no economical justification.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 14:21

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.

yes but only as long as the US limits the number of H1B visas and as the EU sticks with draconian work laws, the whole supply/demand is totally artificial and if it was for the employers they would flood the market with millions of skilled but low-paid immigrants.

so where are you living??? a long time ago Enoch Powell had the same spite for immigrants
in Britain but no one in England wanted to work instead of collecting social assistance. The brown immigrant flooded England to work as garbage collectors, WC cleaners and maintenance,etc
Powell was pissedoff because they brown the white society.

Powell was the first government official to bring Caribbean immigrants into Britain. He was a very complex man and to say he had "spite for immigrants" is wrong. After his initial enthusiasm for immigration (cheap workers for the buses) he became worried about the way intolerance might explode into violence. He was the MP for the constituency with one of the highest immigrant populations (Wolverhampton South-West) and they voted for him in droves. He was a man of his times with the prejudices that went with it, but he was also probably cleverer than any MP in the House today.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 05, 2015, 14:27

Sure it is. North Korea and former economies of Eastern Europe show what happens when government gets too much central control. It can only fail. The trick is striking a good balance, preferably weighed more toward free markets than otherwise.


What about China?

I'm from Eastern Europe, what exactly happened to our economy?
What happened is that all economies were crippled by the centralized planning, when some bureaucrats belived that they know better what people need, than people themselves, they belived they can set prices and wages better than the market itself. What happened was a lack of basic goods and a flourishing black market. People stop using money because it didn't have any value, directly trading services or  goods (a lot of them stolen from their workplaces  because everything belonged to everybody and nobody at the same time)
I think you are maybe mixing things together there and they need to be teased out into seperate strands to understand what went wrong in different ways. For example, central planning requires a full understanding of the flow of all elements in the production system. It's just not humanly possible to do that. Only individual, uncontrolled cells of supply and demand can do it.  That affects what is available, but it doesn't affect the value of money. And I don't think a black market devalues money, either, but you need an economist to discuss those things.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 05, 2015, 14:32
No, I'm not mixing things.
Rent fixing (to help the poor) leads to lack of housing. Salary fixing (to help the poor) leads to lack of employment. Fixing the price of basic goods (to protect the poor) leads to a lack of basics goods.
This has been proven over and over again. The poor ends up being poorer.
The lack of goods makes goods costlier.
The government raises salaries to keep up or is forced to introduce rationing. Raising salaries leads to inflation and the money is losing value. Rationing leads to black market.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 05, 2015, 14:53

Does it matter? Do you deny the above facts?
Sooner or later these will be the direct consequences of centralized planning, artificial price and salary fixing, or minimum wage laws, with no economical justification.

Sure it matters, because you don't understand what really happened to most Eastern European countries. Only from media as I can see.

You are partly right but the worst things in my country happened after socialism/communism when neoliberal capitalism started, when few chosen families got everything because of their political/party  matters without any professional knowledge and robbed/destroyed or sold to foreign owners all ex-state-owned companies/banks/factories. Hundreds of thousands of people got fired. National debt sky rocketed.

Socialism failed obviously when people decided to abandon it and there were good reasons for that, neoliberal capitalism failed when governments started to "help" private banks whose managers got millions for bonuses with as you say poor people tax payers money.

Do you agree with that or at least are you able to see it?

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 05, 2015, 15:12
Belive me, I know better than you think and it is not from the media.
The socialists economies were not able to compete with market driven economies. This is why all those painful re-adjustments were necessary.
And the corruption that followed, has been enabled exactly because the free market economy was not in place. There was no respect for property because the whole economy has been previously nationalized. Factories were sold for pennies to corupt politicians because they didn't belong to anyone.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 05, 2015, 15:37
Belive me, I know better than you think and it is not from the media.
The socialists economies were not able to compete with market driven economies. This is why all those painful re-adjustments were necessary.
And the corruption that followed, has been enabled exactly because the free market economy was not in place. There was no respect for property because the whole economy has been previously nationalized. Factories were sold for pennies to corupt politicians because they didn't belong to anyone.

What do you think about governments of countries with so called free market economies helps private banks with tax money?

Do you think there is any real free market economy in the world without any interfering from the government? Name few if you can please

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 05, 2015, 15:56
I don't think highly about government interference in the economy. This is exactly what is debated in this thread.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 05, 2015, 16:23
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 05, 2015, 16:24
I don't think highly about government interference in the economy. This is exactly what is debated in this thread.

Great, but you said many times when replying to me about "not being able to compete with free market economies" which in the matter of fact don't even exist.

So many prices are controlled and you said that the problem is helping the poor.

Socialism where "equal to all" is completely unfair, but system where few percent of most richest people own same amount of money as the rest of the world is at least unfair as socialism. That's why world need third option.

Biggest economies in the world were made on the power of slavery/immigrants and now same countries are being smart a$$ and talking poorer ones what and how should they do things. If it isn't sad it would be funny.

With no minimum wages you can always say if someone don't want to work for 2$ per hour, you can find others that want to. Sure you can find someone from third world countries who will work for food and warm bed but if you think only about economical justification, not moral/political/law/humanity or any other then the best way from company or country to succeed is free workers (read:slavery). Is it?

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 05, 2015, 17:50
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: michaeldb on April 05, 2015, 21:57
Do you think there is any real free market economy in the world without any interfering from the government? Name few if you can please
Disneyland?
Can't think of any others.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: gbalex on April 05, 2015, 22:08
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


+1 Proves over and over what a selfish .
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 05, 2015, 22:33
Sorry Shelma1, the problem isn't Rob coming in after the fact, and making good on a situation, but was because of poor lending standards, greed, and people who couldn't "afford" the home in the first place. That's what caused the economic collapse. Lending money to people based on lies or bonuses for making the loans.

Now we're in a different market and there are income regulations again. (like there once were in the 70s and 80) You have to prove you have income and the ability to pay the mortgage. Also the values of the properties are moving down to real value, not something like a pump and dump stock scam.

Blame the people for buying beyond their means and the loan officers for creating this failure, not people now who didn't fall for the fraud.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: gbalex on April 05, 2015, 22:51
Sorry Shelma1, the problem isn't Rob coming in after the fact, and making good on a situation, but was because of poor lending standards, greed, and people who couldn't "afford" the home in the first place. That's what caused the economic collapse. Lending money to people based on lies or bonuses for making the loans.

Now we're in a different market and there are income regulations again. (like there once were in the 70s and 80) You have to prove you have income and the ability to pay the mortgage. Also the values of the properties are moving down to real value, not something like a pump and dump stock scam.

Blame the people for buying beyond their means and the loan officers for creating this failure, not people now who didn't fall for the fraud.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.



Not - They are going in for a second round of * our pockets dry, and guess who will pay for the bail outs.

U.S. Banks Relax Loan Standards
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-banks-relax-loan-standards-1418760626 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-banks-relax-loan-standards-1418760626)

Subprime deja vu: Bank car loan lending standards ease
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101004130 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/101004130)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 00:42
socialism was much more unfair and was over long long time ago.

i lived in socialist and communist countries and i can say they had both pros and cons.
from my observations there wasn't a single critical key issue but a whole set of systemic issues and they were an integral part of how the system itself was designed from the start.

the USSR could have been easily saved if they wanted but they had to use the brute force and it was too late anyway as it's been killed from the inside.

the issue is not the fall of the USSR but that it fell so quick, a gradual transition to a mixed economy would have been the best option but this was not the plan of the West and their puppet Eltsin.

in any case there are many many lessons to learn from the old USSR and the socialist countries.
most of their social engineering has been a disaster, other things were not so bad but ultimately their planned economy policies turned out into a mess ... agriculture, mining, and even military research.

but the most spectacular failure was in the creation of the so called "soviet new man" ... people will laugh for centuries at this very idea and at the outcomes of this absurd idea.

in many ways communism, socialism, and capitalism are fruits of the same rotten tree.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 06, 2015, 05:24
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


I'm not sure how you get that from what I said. The point is that there's always opportunities to get ahead even when things look their worst. And now things aren't even at their worst.

And I'm not sure about your world, but in mine, saving up $90k in cash isn't luck. It takes a lot of effort. I even had to cash in my 401K. Maybe you're like Obama and you think the government did that for me. I also had to risk my life savings not knowing if the housing market would ever come back. These are the kinds of things small business owners are doing, which is why they should decide how much to pay their employees. Not the government.

You see, it's their money they're paying out and it's their business they're trying to keep afloat. Not yours. 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Semmick Photo on April 06, 2015, 05:35
Wow wow wow guys, its just a difference of opinion, no need to call names because someone has a different point of view.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 05:44
so where are you living??? a long time ago Enoch Powell had the same spite for immigrants
in Britain but no one in England wanted to work instead of collecting social assistance. The brown immigrant flooded England to work as garbage collectors, WC cleaners and maintenance,etc
Powell was pissedoff because they brown the white society.
these days, we also have low-paid immigrants like you call them coming from latin-am, eastern europe, etc
seems like everyone dislike the idea of immigrants. we forget sometimes that the first immigrants came to USA as cheap labor too, to build the railroad and they too were looked down upon by the settlers.
but before the settlers came, the land was actually already occupied by the native.
in india and other colonies, the same thing was happening when the cocky brits and spanish and portuguese considered themselves as the founder of the land long occupied by natives.

so, cut the crap about low paid immigrants flooding the nation.
to USA


there are zero benefits from unregulated mass immigration for anyone who is not owning properties and is an employee, that's the point.

housing prices go up, salaries are kept artificially low, and many jobs are grabbed by foreigners leaving nothing to the locals.

from this scenario, i 100% understand the anti-immigration feelings that are now mainstream in continental europe.

for anything else we can all agree that it's all been seen over and over in the past and we should just accept it but Oz and the US and the other colonies were quite a different reality from Europe.

employers will seek any way to cut costs, as that's their primary goal to make profit or at least to stay afloat and in business, but this is impacting society as a whole in the moment that foreigners become 10-20% of the whole population ... i mean in cities like Berlin up to 40% of the residents are not germans, this is something unseen in the last centuries.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: KnowYourOnions on April 06, 2015, 05:48
For Easter Monday reading...Where to invest next? Nigeria and Vietnam...

http://blogs.wsj.com/frontiers/2015/01/15/nigeria-consolidates-status-as-most-watched-frontier-market/ (http://blogs.wsj.com/frontiers/2015/01/15/nigeria-consolidates-status-as-most-watched-frontier-market/)

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 05:49
Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


the middle class will disappear anyway because in the actual scenario with an average salary you're no longer part of the middle class, at best you're "lower middle class".
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: KnowYourOnions on April 06, 2015, 05:59

There's plenty of opportunities for people who have the right skills for jobs that are in demand and are motivated to get a job

It seems like the go-getter is a dying breed.


yes but only as long as the US limits the number of H1B visas and as the EU sticks with draconian work laws, the whole supply/demand is totally artificial and if it was for the employers they would flood the market with millions of skilled but low-paid immigrants.


H1B salaries to check... just type company name

Here is Google - http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job= (http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 06:14
You forget that, what you want, has been tried for 50 years in Eastern Europe,  with disastrous social consequences. You forget that systems where some "elite" tried to fight the market forces failed miserably.
Before '89, East Germany was way behind West Germany, despite being populated by the same Germans. Look at South an North Korea. Same people, two systems. There is no need to highlight, which one belives that rules and regulations, instead if market forces, will bring prosperity (instead of inequality driven by greedy capitalists :) )

You want more government control,  more artificial rules, laws and regulations? You don't have to be Nostradamus, to imagine where it will end. Just look at North Korea. History can easily repeat itself.

there's no debate that communism was the worst disaster produced in the last centuries, personally i'm a fan of mixed economies like actual China but at the same time having lived in china and in the rest of asia i'm fully aware that what the price to pay for the actual chinese economy will be very high sooner or later when the bubble explodes and it's just a matter of time and it's already visible in the big cities like Beijing where housing prices have almost tripled in the last 7-8 yrs while salaries have not.

i've been in west and east germany after and before 1989, i've been in korea recently, i've been in russia and eastern europe, i haven't seen any economic paradise or any "workers' paradise", each country had pros and cons, some cities were richer than others, some areas were poorer and other areas were clean and well administered, it's hard to reduce everything in a binary form "good vs bad" ... i mean it's all relative, if a tourist go in Detroit he will be hardly impressed by the fruits of american capitalism ...
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 06:23
I don't think highly about government interference in the economy. This is exactly what is debated in this thread.

sure, but we could agree that some core industries like water, basic foods, public education, and cheap housing should be kept as a monopoly by the state otherwise the so called "market forces" would make scorched earth.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on April 06, 2015, 06:25
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


It's horrible and unfortunate when someone loses their house. It's your home. It's your life. Here in the US a major reason for the housing crisis was people buying homes they couldn't afford in the first place.

Where I live a large percentage of foreclosures were "McMansion" $300,000US+ luxury homes. Before I went to buy a house I ran the numbers for my expenses, income, savings, etc, and figured out what I could afford. When I went to the bank the loan officer told me "you qualify for $XXX,XXX.". It was twice as much as the number I came up with. I told him "yeah, I qualify for that, but there's no way I could afford it." I'd be in foreclosure within months. But plenty of people bought houses based on what they qualified for which wasn't what they could afford. Why? Maybe some greed of wanting a nice house. Maybe ignorance not knowing what they could afford. Maybe poor planing and not having enough savings in the event one member of the household lost their job. Maybe just horrendously bad fortune.

I'm sure few people will agree with what I'm about to say because this is probably considered "old school" mentality. In my opinion we are increasingly moving toward a society where there's little self-accountability. When someone does something wrong or makes a bad decision it's someone elses fault. Commit an armed robbery and get shot by the convenience store owner? It's the store owners fault. Can't get a job? It's because somebody else isn't providing the jobs. Don't make enough money to live in an ultra expensive city? It's the business's fault and the government needs to force them to give higher pay.

I believe your fortune should only equal what you're capable of achieving. But we're increasingly headed toward a society of penalizing the hard workers and rewarding people who make bad decisions, perform poorly, or expect hand outs. The news is constantly reporting about the move toward only rich and poor. Should we be surprised that the middle class is disappearing?

So who's fault is it when someone buys a house they can't afford? Banks fault? Seller's fault? Foreclosure buyer's fault? Nobody is responsible for their decisions anymore.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 06:30
H1B salaries to check... just type company name

Here is Google - [url]http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=[/url] ([url]http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=GOOGLE+INC&job=[/url])


the irony is that while Amurrica claims to be the gold standard of world capitalism at the same time is enforcing things like H1B and green card lotteries that have nothing to do with what they're preaching as limiting the intake of foreign skilled workers is just their dirty way to preserve their privileges and the sky-high salaries of US-born professionals that could be easily replaced by a wave of skilled immigrants from europe, russia, australia, not necessarily just from the third world.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 06, 2015, 06:39
The trouble with capitalism (and I speak as a perplexed capitalist) is that the logic of it sucks wealth from the poor to the rich and it has no vision that extends beyond next year's shareholder report. So it fails to meet the needs of a large underclass and it fails to meet the needs of future generations. However, nothing can compete with it as long as humanity lives by the capitalist paradigm that the acquisition of wealth is good. It's funny to hear the politicians in the UK election making their pitch: Labour says the Conservatives will take money and services from people but Labour will give people money and services, the Conservatives say Labour will take money from people and ruin services but they will make people richer and protect services. Both in their own way are believers in the mantra that Greed is Good, and they appeal to the greed of the electorate.
**
Wasn't a major reason for the housing crisis a rise in interest rates which made affordable mortgages unaffordable? With UK interest rates at rock bottom, a return to a normal BoE base rate of 5% or 6% might double interest repayments for some people and drive them to the wall. Then, I suppose, we will say they bought houses they couldn't afford.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 06:40
So who's fault is it when someone buys a house they can't afford? Banks fault? Seller's fault? Foreclosure buyer's fault? Nobody is responsible for their decisions anymore.

actually i agree 100% with your analysis !
but the actual abysmal scenario is the direct consequence of decades of dumbing down in the West's education paired with the hammering capitalist propaganda by banks and the media about a mythical "perpetual growth" in salaries and buying power.

people should face the reality that the government is NOT their friend and that the banks are NOT their friends, but for whatever reason they've been told otherwise since birth, so now we might wonder who's really to blame for this.

as a matter of fact, you can't trust anyone but good luck convincing the do-gooders that the whole system is a Ponzi scheme, for starters they lack the prerequisite economic background to understand these things, and secondly it would clash against a whole life of indoctrination, patriotism, and brainwashing.

i mean, take out the banks and you've the loan sharks, take out the loan sharks and you have micro-credit scams and any other sort of ripoffs, there's no way to fix the age old issue of "a fool and his money are soon parted"....
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 06:47
The trouble with capitalism (and I speak as a perplexed capitalist) is that the logic of it sucks wealth from the poor to the rich and it has no vision that extends beyond next year's shareholder report. So it fails to meet the needs of a large underclass and it fails to meet the needs of future generations. However, nothing can compete with it as long as humanity lives by the capitalist paradigm that the acquisition of wealth is good. It's funny to hear the politicians in the UK election making their pitch: Labour says the Conservatives will take money and services from people but Labour will give people money and services, the Conservatives say Labour will take money from people and ruin services but they will make people richer and protect services. Both in their own way are believers in the mantra that Greed is Good, and they appeal to the greed of the electorate.
**
Wasn't a major reason for the housing crisis a rise in interest rates which made affordable mortgages unaffordable? With UK interest rates at rock bottom, a return to a normal BoE base rate of 5% or 6% might double interest repayments for some people and drive them to the wall. Then, I suppose, we will say they bought houses they couldn't afford.

it was well know from the start that "capitalism will eat itself", but because they can also print trillions of new $ and nobody complain it will take a bit longer than expected to see it falling down where it deserves.

while Greed is the root cause of all this it's also a human factor than won't ever go away so we better deal with it.

for anything else let me say that even if housing prices go down who's going to afford the cost for heating in winter and all the new draconian taxes that the EU will impose in one way or another ?

it's already a luxury having one single baby, soon it will be a luxury to rent a room, what's next ? i keep saying that not long ago even the slaves in the cotton plantations had it better as they were guaranteed food and accomodation and healthcare, all things that are no longer taken for granted in the West noawadays.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on April 06, 2015, 06:52
The trouble with capitalism (and I speak as a perplexed capitalist) is that the logic of it sucks wealth from the poor to the rich and it has no vision that extends beyond next year's shareholder report. So it fails to meet the needs of a large underclass and it fails to meet the needs of future generations. However, nothing can compete with it as long as humanity lives by the capitalist paradigm that the acquisition of wealth is good. It's funny to hear the politicians in the UK election making their pitch: Labour says the Conservatives will take money and services from people but Labour will give people money and services, the Conservatives say Labour will take money from people and ruin services but they will make people richer and protect services. Both in their own way are believers in the mantra that Greed is Good, and they appeal to the greed of the electorate.
**
Wasn't a major reason for the housing crisis a rise in interest rates which made affordable mortgages unaffordable? With UK interest rates at rock bottom, a return to a normal BoE base rate of 5% or 6% might double interest repayments for some people and drive them to the wall. Then, I suppose, we will say they bought houses they couldn't afford.

The trouble with you is you know how to take a step back and get a balanced well thought out view. That wont win you any friends on this here internet.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 06, 2015, 07:06
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


It's horrible and unfortunate when someone loses their house. It's your home. It's your life. Here in the US a major reason for the housing crisis was people buying homes they couldn't afford in the first place.

Where I live a large percentage of foreclosures were "McMansion" $300,000US+ luxury homes. Before I went to buy a house I ran the numbers for my expenses, income, savings, etc, and figured out what I could afford. When I went to the bank the loan officer told me "you qualify for $XXX,XXX.". It was twice as much as the number I came up with. I told him "yeah, I qualify for that, but there's no way I could afford it." I'd be in foreclosure within months. But plenty of people bought houses based on what they qualified for which wasn't what they could afford. Why? Maybe some greed of wanting a nice house. Maybe ignorance not knowing what they could afford. Maybe poor planing and not having enough savings in the event one member of the household lost their job. Maybe just horrendously bad fortune.

I'm sure few people will agree with what I'm about to say because this is probably considered "old school" mentality. In my opinion we are increasingly moving toward a society where there's little self-accountability. When someone does something wrong or makes a bad decision it's someone elses fault. Commit an armed robbery and get shot by the convenience store owner? It's the store owners fault. Can't get a job? It's because somebody else isn't providing the jobs. Don't make enough money to live in an ultra expensive city? It's the business's fault and the government needs to force them to give higher pay.

I believe your fortune should only equal what you're capable of achieving. But we're increasingly headed toward a society of penalizing the hard workers and rewarding people who make bad decisions, perform poorly, or expect hard outs. The news is constantly reporting about the move toward only rich and poor. Should we be surprised that the middle class is disappearing?

So who's fault is it when someone buys a house they can't afford? Banks fault? Seller's fault? Foreclosure buyer's fault? Nobody is responsible for their decisions anymore.


There's culpability on both sides, IMO. Some homeowners should not have bought the homes they did, because they had balloon mortgages that would be impossible to pay once the interest rate went up (though I'm guessing many people were hoping they'd be making more money by the time that came about). However, banks and investors were absolutely predatory in this instance. They targeted certain groups and purposely sold them unaffordable mortgages, bundled those mortgages into difficult-to-undertand investment instruments, then bet against the homeowners being able to pay those mortgages. When the homeowners went into foreclosure the investors made a killing.

And when the bubble burst those mortgage lenders were on a rampage. At the time my dad passed away, and I had to sell his house as executor of his estate. His bank absolutely refused to give me or my attorneys a payoff amount because they were dead set on foreclosing. The house was worth much more to them if they could sell it at auction than the mortgage was worth if the estate paid it off. They finally were forced to give us a payoff amount the morning of the closing, because my attorney told them we "ARE selling this house TODAY." But for months they played games, pretending they'd never received my admin papers—even when my attorneys sent them. They even tried to serve my mom, who was dying of dementia in a nursing home, with foreclosure papers—impossible, because I was her legal guardian because she lacked the mental capacity to make decisions for herself any more.

I've worked for banks (in marketing) for decades. They are predatory. They prey on the naive and poor and uneducated.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Difydave on April 06, 2015, 08:00
-I've worked for banks (in marketing) for decades. They are predatory. They prey on the naive and poor and uneducated.
Excuse the snip.
Banks are predatory indeed. They do no one any favours apart from themselves. No matter what the smiley, happy shiny ads would lead us to believe.
Banks, insurance companies, estate agents, car dealers, stock agencies (:)) The list is endless.
They all want their profit above anything else.

Unfortunately, as adults we all have to take responsibilities for our own dealings in this world. We have to understand the rules that govern any of those dealings, see the pitfalls, and if necessary be prepared to use the law, or at least the threat of it to sort out problems.

Being naive or uneducated will always get people into trouble of one sort or another.
If a bank didn't take money off those people, a magic bean seller would.

There is no such thing as "fair" in this world. Life isn't fair.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Nikovsk on April 06, 2015, 08:20
Yes I'm sure. It's a document issued by the swedish police. Is that reliable enough?
Now good luck finding a single Guardian article about it.

The introduction to the police document (via google translate) says: "In Sweden , there are currently 55 geographic areas where local criminal networks is considered to have a negative impact on the local community . The areas are spread across 22 cities - from big cities to small towns and is regarded as socio- economically disadvantaged . The vast criminal law covers of the local community appears to be linked to the social context in the areas of rather than on the willingness of criminals to take control and auditing in the local community ."
That doesn't seem like an admission of no-go areas, more of a guide to areas where more action is needed. However, as you presumably read Swedish and have read the report you refer to, could you point me to the section of the report that admits these are "no go areas" and I can google-translate from the original for myself?
I like to check the basis of unexpected assertions for myself, in line with Sagan's mantra that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Ok, let's take a closer look:

"Frequently crime among the local criminals in areas including open drug trafficking, criminal settlements which manifests itself in serious violence on public places, various forms of extortion and unlawful influence and acting out dissatisfaction with society. All of the above expressions manifests public criminal power and become a reminder of what the criminal actors are capable of. This along with active pressure on the local community in the form of threats, violence and extortion assumed to be the basis for the fear police perceives in the local community. The fear manifests itself in that it is difficult to get people to participate in the legal process against the local criminals.

Development of the areas has led to difficulties in investigating crimes. Police have also in other respects difficulty working in these areas, including due to the environment reacting against the police in providing assistance or by attacking police vehicles. Police difficulty in curbing the problems mentioned can be a contributing factor to the public in several cases understands that it is the criminals who control the area procedures. Such a perception may contest the role of the police as a guarantor of security, and reduces the public's tendency to turn to the police. The situation in these areas is worrying and has in several cases meant that the police have not been able to fulfill its task."

---

Interesting enough, they never mention the word immigration or muslim for fear of appearing racist. Reminds me of Rotherham scandal. The immigration agenda is here to stay and we can already see the declining society and values in western countries. US and Western Europe will become uninhabitable in a few more decades, and the media is playing a huge role into brainwashing people to accept it with their mouths shut.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on April 06, 2015, 10:08
-I've worked for banks (in marketing) for decades. They are predatory. They prey on the naive and poor and uneducated.
Excuse the snip.
Banks are predatory indeed. They do no one any favours apart from themselves. No matter what the smiley, happy shiny ads would lead us to believe.
Banks, insurance companies, estate agents, car dealers, stock agencies (:)) The list is endless.
They all want their profit above anything else.

Unfortunately, as adults we all have to take responsibilities for our own dealings in this world. We have to understand the rules that govern any of those dealings, see the pitfalls, and if necessary be prepared to use the law, or at least the threat of it to sort out problems.

Being naive or uneducated will always get people into trouble of one sort or another.
If a bank didn't take money off those people, a magic bean seller would.

There is no such thing as "fair" in this world. Life isn't fair.

Add one more thing to the mix. A lot of those mortgages were taken out by people who knew they probably couldn't repay them, but taking the mortgages out had very little actual risk for them. They were in such terrible financial straights that making a strategic default wouldn't really hurt their credit rating much more, it was worth a punt. They saw no ethical reason to keep their word and try to pay back the mortgage before other debts as they see companies do the same thing all the time. Directors get huge paychecks and bonuses for apparently having a lot of responsibility, when in fact they get a golden parachute if anything goes wrong. Hell they were proved right when it all went tits up and even the banks got to shirk their debts with huge bailouts.

Meanwhile, the banks desperately wanted to give out sub prime mortgages so they could package them together with other mortgages they called less risky (a lot weren't but that's a story for another time), and sell the financial derivatives to Chinese money desperately looking for any investment opportunity.

Not sure what the lesson is except that things are pretty mucky for the large part from any angle you want to look at them, and perhaps that a lot of the actors that were involved didn't go into it with their eyes closed.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 10:22
I don't think highly about government interference in the economy. This is exactly what is debated in this thread.

Great, but you said many times when replying to me about "not being able to compete with free market economies" which in the matter of fact don't even exist.

So many prices are controlled and you said that the problem is helping the poor.

Socialism where "equal to all" is completely unfair, but system where few percent of most richest people own same amount of money as the rest of the world is at least unfair as socialism. That's why world need third option.

Biggest economies in the world were made on the power of slavery/immigrants and now same countries are being smart a$$ and talking poorer ones what and how should they do things. If it isn't sad it would be funny.

With no minimum wages you can always say if someone don't want to work for 2$ per hour, you can find others that want to. Sure you can find someone from third world countries who will work for food and warm bed but if you think only about economical justification, not moral/political/law/humanity or any other then the best way from company or country to succeed is free workers (read:slavery). Is it?

Just to stay on track with this topic: each time a government interferes with the market (like for example artificially imposing minimum wages), it pumps another blow in a future economical bubble.
You might not see major effects immediately.
This is what the populist, irresponsible politicians count on: to appear as saviors, when in fact they act according to "Apres moi, le Deluge" policies!

Now, when the bubble bursts, it is very, very painful. When the socialist economy bubble has exploded, the effect was dramatic, as you mentioned above.
When the housing bubble exploded, the effect on the American and world economies was very painful as well.
All these bubbles are created by governments who mingled with the economy by printing money to cover-up for their unsustainable borrowing or other failed economical policies (i.e artificial wage increases, housing or basic goods subsidies).

The economy will always fall back where the equilibrium between demand and offer is met. And then, the "fall" will hurt a lot!

And now about your other concerns:
There is no absolute freedom, and obviously, there is no absolute free market economy!
When I mentioned "free market" economy, I used the term in a relative way. Obviously, there is no economical freedom in a socialist country where all costs and salaries are (wrongly) decided by some bureaucrats.

Unfortunately, your claim about slavery being one of the reason behind the prosperity of the "developed economies" comes straight from the communist party manual.

Mind you that slavery was widespread in Africa itself (and to some extend it still is, in some areas).
It didn't help African countries to become prosperous.
Even if the communist party manual doesn't tell it to you, slavery has been very much present in Eastern Europe: millions or gypsies had absolutely no rights, being forced to work, with no pay, for their landlords, restricted by law from leaving their domains. Gypsy slavery ended up, more or less simultaneously, with the slavery in the rest of, what is today, the developed world.

It is also a fact that, during the inter-war period, several Eastern European economies, part of the "free market" world back then, were very competitive. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc had better economies than Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy or Portugal.
Only the Russian imposed communism, centralized planing and disregard for private property, brought all these economies to their knees.

As for immigration, yes, this definitely helps the economy. But the economy has first to be attractive and healthy, for immigrants do take their chances and come in and contribute to further growth. Who would want to immigrate in an unstable country or were basic freedoms are not respected?


Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: tickstock on April 06, 2015, 10:55
Just to stay on track with this topic: each time a government interferes with the market (like for example artificially imposing minimum wages), it pumps another blow in a future economical bubble.
You might not see major effects immediately.
This is what the populist, irresponsible politicians count on: to appear as saviors, when in fact they act according to "Apres moi, le Deluge" policies!
Governments interfere with markets in all sorts of ways that almost every person agrees is appropriate.  Would it be best to let the free market decide how much lead or arsenic or fecal matter are ok for drinking water?  How many people would need to die before the free market fixed the problem?  Should doctors be free from market interference or again should we wait for people to die before we correct problems?  Building codes interfere with the market, national parks interfere with the market, car safety regulations interfere with the market.  Would it be better if we waited for buildings to collapse and then stopped using a construction company or regulate it first and prevent catastrophes?   What about externalities, if companies want to make a quick profit by dumping toxic waste and then go bankrupt they can walk away with millions and leave the area devastated.  Markets need to be interfered with.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 11:10
... personally i'm a fan of mixed economies like actual China but at the same time having lived in china and in the rest of asia i'm fully aware that what the price to pay for the actual chinese economy will be very high sooner or later when the bubble explodes
Quote

Exactly! how can you be a fan of a ticking bomb?

Quote
if a tourist go in Detroit he will be hardly impressed by the fruits of american capitalism ...
I'm with you, but you have to be aware that Detroit has been destroyed by exactly the same failed policies debated in this thread. The American capitalism, at least the one that you have in mind, has been forgotten by the Detroit law makers who offered freebies from borrowed money only to get re- and re-elected again until the bubble exploded.
 
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 06, 2015, 11:25
Agree that things are potentially going soft and weak again, but not as bad as it was when someone could walk in, no proof, claim they had all kinds of income and get a home loan - based on a lie. The lenders were making the loans and the bankers paid to "make loans" which were then sold off.

It was similar to a pyramid scheme with the lenders, playing it off on the bigger banks.

Also true, we are the ones who end up paying for these schemes.

Myself? Haven't had a car loan since 1988, and I bought this shack I live in, after jumping through flaming hoops, being inspected like I was asking to have dinner with the President. Bought the house, 30% down in February of 2013, took until August to get the bank loan approved.

Making it a little easier wouldn't hurt, but lowering the standards is 100% wrong!

Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.



Not - They are going in for a second round of * our pockets dry, and guess who will pay for the bail outs.


I think this thread was about minimum wage. Sorry if I have gone off track. But it's all about economics and politics in the end.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: KnowYourOnions on April 06, 2015, 11:30
It is also a fact that, during the inter-war period, several Eastern European economies, part of the "free market" world back then, were very competitive. Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc had better economies than Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy or Portugal.
Only the Russian imposed communism, centralized planing and disregard for private property, brought all these economies to their knees.

As for immigration, yes, this definitely helps the economy. But the economy has first to be attractive and healthy, for immigrants do take their chances and come in and contribute to further growth. Who would want to immigrate in an unstable country or were basic freedoms are not respected?


Hmmm...EX Eastern European counties are doing far better than Greece, Spain or Italy nowadays. How do you explain that? It looks like Russian "bad influence" on them wasn't that bad.

Eh, only brave and visionary are ready to risk ALL and to immigrate to unstable countries. Who would think that first immigrants to the USA would do so well in the end....Here is the list, according to WSJ, take a leap and move to one of these places!
 8)
http://graphics.wsj.com/documents/frontier-markets-map/ (http://graphics.wsj.com/documents/frontier-markets-map/)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 06, 2015, 11:41

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No pie for you.  As I said, it has been over 30 years since I read Plato, so i do not claim any expertise on the subject.  Perhaps if the quote is attributed to Socrates, you would care to name the source?
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 12:02
Hmmm...EX Eastern European counties are doing far better than Greece, Spain or Italy nowadays. How do you explain that? It looks like Russian "bad influence" on them wasn't that bad.

It is true that Greece is in trouble, exactly because their government has borrowed way beyond their payback capabilities (why did Greece organize those Olympic Games?), nevertheless see this table showing the comparison between 1929 and 2010:
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 13:13
With no minimum wages you can always say if someone don't want to work for 2$ per hour, you can find others that want to.

Let's imagine this hypothetical scenario: The US government decides that microstockers are not treated fairly when they get 25c/download.

Then a law is issued forcing the agencies to pay their contributors with the equivalent of 2$/hour, minimum (I don't even dare to say $15/hour)

2$/hour  x 176h/month = $352/month minimum for each contributor working with a given agency.

What do you think will happen?

All the agencies will have to "fire" 80-95% of their contributors (those who don't meet the new standard).
The agencies will have to increase the prices for what will be left of their stock, to be able to keep on board as many contributors as possible.

Big customers will get less photos to chose from, being forced to pay more for lower quality or they will have to increase prices themselves by hiring dedicated photographers.

A lot of small bloggers will not be able to afford the new prices and the sales volume will drop for those contributors who stayed with the agency..
The small bloggers will lose their audience, and the ripple effect will continue, The advertiser revenue will drop, and so on.
123RF, DT, Pond5 and other smaller agencies will go bust, leaving the microstock in the hands of a couple of big sharks with monopolistic behavior.
The microstock industry will fall in a deep recession.

Doesn't it sound like a mini-bubble?

This new artificial law will deprive all contributors, who are ready to work for less than $352/month/agency, from their modest additional income. And we know that there are a lot of beginners just happy to meet the minimum monthly threshold.

At a bigger scale this is what happens when minimum wage laws are artificially imposed

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: cathyslife on April 06, 2015, 13:22
Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.
If banks didn't give loans to people who can't afford them, THEY WOULDN'T BE WRITING MANY LOANS! Because most people today can't really afford a home loan, when their employers keep cutting back their hours, wages and benefits!
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PaulieWalnuts on April 06, 2015, 13:49
Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.
If banks didn't give loans to people who can't afford them, THEY WOULDN'T BE WRITING MANY LOANS! Because most people today can't really afford a home loan, when their employers keep cutting back their hours, wages and benefits!

I don't follow your logic. Instead of writing 100 loans for a $500,000 house a person can't afford wouldn't they be writing 100 loans for a $200,000 house a person can afford?

And that's the problem, really. If the minimum cost of a house in that area is $200,000 and the person can only afford a $100,000 house, what's the answer? Have the government force businesses to increase wages so that person can buy a a $200,000 house? Force already overburnered taxpayers to cough up more money to provide subsidies for a person to buy a $200,000 who can only afford a $100,000 house?

I have houses, townhouses, and condos in my town that are $75,000. I'm sure in other areas of the country there are less expensive houses. Move. If you can't afford to buy a house, who says you need to buy one? There are plenty of excellent affordable rental options.  Maybe people should live where they can afford instead of forcing the community to financially support them. And if they dont like the places where they can afford to live they should get used to it or do something for themselves so they can earn more money to live where they prefer.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 06, 2015, 14:05

Unfortunately, your claim about slavery being one of the reason behind the prosperity of the "developed economies" comes straight from the communist party manual.

Mind you that slavery was widespread in Africa itself (and to some extend it still is, in some areas).
It didn't help African countries to become prosperous.
Even if the communist party manual doesn't tell it to you

As for immigration, yes, this definitely helps the economy. But the economy has first to be attractive and healthy, for immigrants do take their chances and come in and contribute to further growth. Who would want to immigrate in an unstable country or were basic freedoms are not respected?

First of all, it looks like you are extremely obsessed with communism. I was 6 years old when it was all over in my country (even in the last 10 years, or 4 years before my birth, it wasn't communism at all anymore), and none of my parents were ever in any kind of communist party. So telling me what communist told me is offensive and funny in the same time. Even more, when I was growing up, everything about communism was absolutely negatively presented in culture, school, everywhere, because my country was in war with ex communist.

From my facts, you change the story to communism, because you don't have any answers.

About slavery in Africa, for who does those slaves worked for? For African people or for colonialist? Where that money go?

But I don't want to change this topic to that. I want to tell you that you really dont have much clue what is going on in this part of world.

If your absolutely free economy with no minimum wages or any rights to workers ever come true, we will see slavery again, working for food and bed, big fish (companies) eating smaller ones and we will see one corporation or one family own entire world or something like that. That sounds fair to you?

I would really like to know what books did you read about situation in Eastern Europe but I would not ask you I already know it was from the cold-war times and from western authors. It's the big problem when one side of the story some want to present as facts.

Also, gypsies in my country had more rights compared to african american people in USA in the same period of history.




Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 14:25
Quote
From my facts, you change the story to communism, because you don't have any answers.

About slavery in Africa, for who does those slaves worked for? For African people or for colonialist? Where that money go?

FYI, they were enslaved by other African tribes, it was common practice even before the colonialists arrived.
Moreover there was a heavy slave trade on the eastern side of Africa, conducted by middle eastern countries.

Quote
I want to tell you that you really dont have much clue what is going on in this part of world.

I would really like to know what books did you read about situation in Eastern Europe but I would not ask you I already know it was from the cold-war times and from western authors. It's the big problem when one side of the story some want to present as facts.

As I said, I do have, and even more than you think. You make assumptions about me and about the books I might have read, instead of focusing on ideas.

Quote
Also, gypsies in my country had more rights compared to african american people in USA in the same period of history.


Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania)
or this:
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html (http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html)

because this "nasty" history is often omitted from all those "patriotic" history books.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 14:28
double post. sorry.

Edit: Let me use it to recap, why it is now about slavery in Africa :) since Semmick Photo wonders, about it, below :)

Seattle imposed minimum wages -> the government should tackle the "corporate greed" -> link to what happened in other countries where similar government imposed "solutions" failed big time -> justification of the free market economies success through slavery and immigration -> and here we show that slavery was, unfortunately, not specific to US or the developed countries only.

:)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Semmick Photo on April 06, 2015, 14:28
Wasnt this thread about minimum wage in Seattle? I am seeing slavery in Africa being discussed now  :o
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: KnowYourOnions on April 06, 2015, 14:44
FYI
Tens of thousands of workers in Seattle are getting a boost in their paychecks starting Wednesday as the city's new minimum wage kicks in, rising to $11 for most workers.

It's the first stage of a law that eventually will raise the city's minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's being phased in more quickly for big companies than small ones.

Seattle's previous minimum wage was $9.47, the same as the Washington state minimum wage.

Local companies have different strategies for dealing with the increased wage. Some are passing the buck on to customers, but others are not.

KOMO News spoke with managers at two Seattle restaurants who say they'll make the higher wage work - with some creativity.

At Ivar's Salmon House in Wallingford, menu prices will be 21 percent higher than before. But to balance, the restaurant will no longer encourage tipping - and is paying minimum wage workers a full $15 an hour - $4 more than required.


US states minimum wage chart is here:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx#1 (http://www.ncsl.org/research/labor-and-employment/state-minimum-wage-chart.aspx#1)

EU net average monthly wage  - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage)
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 06, 2015, 15:22

Read this:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania[/url])
or this:
[url]http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html[/url] ([url]http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html[/url])

because this "nasty" history is often omitted from all those "patriotic" history books.


Abolished in Romania the same time as it was in USA, and from my country, it was abolished in year 1214.  Reverse google it so you can find out of what country I'm saying. Much before Columbus or Amerigo Vespucci even discovered America.
 
Read this: if wikipedia is your best source, I'm out of discussion.

Because this "nasty" history is still today omitted from all those "patriotic" books and especially the movies! ;)

Cya!





Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 06, 2015, 16:09

Read this:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Romania[/url])
or this:
[url]http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html[/url] ([url]http://www.chgs.umn.edu/histories/victims/romaSinti/gypsies.html[/url])

because this "nasty" history is often omitted from all those "patriotic" history books.


Abolished in Romania the same time as it was in USA, and from my country, it was abolished in year 1214.  Reverse google it so you can find out of what country I'm saying. Much before Columbus or Amerigo Vespucci even discovered America.
 
Read this: if wikipedia is your best source, I'm out of discussion.

Because this "nasty" history is still today omitted from all those "patriotic" books and especially the movies! ;)

Cya!


You are funny! :) Kuddos to the Town of Korčula!

Since there are plenty of poor countries where slavery has been common practice for centuries, it will only be fair from you, (before saying cya ;) ), to revisit your logic about slavery being the reason behind the developed countries' success (instead of a sustainable economical model, back-up by technological progress).

To a certain extent it is the other way around: the economical success and technological progress made even the free brute manual labor too expensive.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 06, 2015, 16:26

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No pie for you.  As I said, it has been over 30 years since I read Plato, so i do not claim any expertise on the subject.  Perhaps if the quote is attributed to Socrates, you would care to name the source?
Obviously, nothing can be attributed to Socrates, since he didn't write anything for posterity. It's not in anything old, it's been made up recently and falsely attributed to old guys.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: panicAttack on April 06, 2015, 16:32

You are funny! :) Kuddos to the Town of Korčula!

Since there are plenty of poor countries where slavery has been common practice for centuries, it will only be fair from you, (before saying cya ;) ), to revisit your logic about slavery being the reason behind the developed countries' success (instead of a sustainable economical model).

To a certain extent it is the other way around: the economical success and technological progress made even the free brute manual labor too expensive.

;)

I never said it was the only reason but it helped in some way, also I never said communism or socialism are better systems, far from that, they are/were worse and history is proof of that. But there is no real and complete democracy nor real neoliberal capitalism at all, and also I said I think it is even better that country we are paying our taxes for, take care in some way of minimum rights for workers.

There are/were many private companies here that haven't payed their workers for several months, desperate people continues to work cause it was told to them it will be next month, next, next and so on... There is new law recently (my English isn't the best) but if you don't pay your workers for some period, goodbye to your company, and with money from sold company properties it is able to pay workers what can be payed.

It need to be some kind of justice/law/order.

Goodbye, better to start working and shooting, you can't change my mind nor I can change yours. This is wasting time arguing. This is Internet in it's best
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: BaldricksTrousers on April 06, 2015, 16:32
Yes I'm sure. It's a document issued by the swedish police. Is that reliable enough?
Now good luck finding a single Guardian article about it.

The introduction to the police document (via google translate) says: "In Sweden , there are currently 55 geographic areas where local criminal networks is considered to have a negative impact on the local community . The areas are spread across 22 cities - from big cities to small towns and is regarded as socio- economically disadvantaged . The vast criminal law covers of the local community appears to be linked to the social context in the areas of rather than on the willingness of criminals to take control and auditing in the local community ."
That doesn't seem like an admission of no-go areas, more of a guide to areas where more action is needed. However, as you presumably read Swedish and have read the report you refer to, could you point me to the section of the report that admits these are "no go areas" and I can google-translate from the original for myself?
I like to check the basis of unexpected assertions for myself, in line with Sagan's mantra that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

Ok, let's take a closer look:

"Frequently crime among the local criminals in areas including open drug trafficking, criminal settlements which manifests itself in serious violence on public places, various forms of extortion and unlawful influence and acting out dissatisfaction with society. All of the above expressions manifests public criminal power and become a reminder of what the criminal actors are capable of. This along with active pressure on the local community in the form of threats, violence and extortion assumed to be the basis for the fear police perceives in the local community. The fear manifests itself in that it is difficult to get people to participate in the legal process against the local criminals.

Development of the areas has led to difficulties in investigating crimes. Police have also in other respects difficulty working in these areas, including due to the environment reacting against the police in providing assistance or by attacking police vehicles. Police difficulty in curbing the problems mentioned can be a contributing factor to the public in several cases understands that it is the criminals who control the area procedures. Such a perception may contest the role of the police as a guarantor of security, and reduces the public's tendency to turn to the police. The situation in these areas is worrying and has in several cases meant that the police have not been able to fulfill its task."

---

Interesting enough, they never mention the word immigration or muslim for fear of appearing racist. Reminds me of Rotherham scandal. The immigration agenda is here to stay and we can already see the declining society and values in western countries. US and Western Europe will become uninhabitable in a few more decades, and the media is playing a huge role into brainwashing people to accept it with their mouths shut.
I take it then, that you are withdrawing your original assertion that Swedish police officially admit that there are 58 no-go areas outside their control in the country, since the stuff you quote makes it clear that they are engaged in law-enforcement in those areas. Instead you seem to be  asserting that there are 58 areas in Sweden with very serious social/law enforcement issues. Wow! Fancy that!
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: KnowYourOnions on April 06, 2015, 17:01
Wasnt this thread about minimum wage in Seattle? I am seeing slavery in Africa being discussed now  :o

+100
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: PixelBytes on April 06, 2015, 17:44

It is widely reported on the Interweb that The Millennials are quite a departure from previous generations of humanity, in ways which are perhaps not all positive.

That has been widely reported about every generation for centuries, if not longer.  ::)

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

Any guesses who's quote this is?

Great quote!  It sounded familiar, but kuddos to Batman and Ultimagaina for creditiing it to Socrates in The Dialogues of Plato.  Its been more than 30 years since I read it, and at the time it definitely applied to me.
Except, pixelbytes (and I'm sorry about this) it isn't in Plato. (Of course, if you can point to the specific lines I will eat some humble pie).

No pie for you.  As I said, it has been over 30 years since I read Plato, so i do not claim any expertise on the subject.  Perhaps if the quote is attributed to Socrates, you would care to name the source?
Obviously, nothing can be attributed to Socrates, since he didn't write anything for posterity. It's not in anything old, it's been made up recently and falsely attributed to old guys.

Ah. One of those situations.  Not having posted the quote myself, I was only agreeing with its logic.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 06, 2015, 23:48
If a bank didn't take money off those people, a magic bean seller would.

exactly, see all the scams targeting people with "bad credit".
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 07, 2015, 00:02
Giving loans to people who can't afford them is what caused the collapse, and if that's the way it's going again. I'm with you. Danger ahead.

yes but housing is still a PRIMARY need for everyone and yet in the West it's still sold like it was a luxury item.
THIS is the root of all evils.

the government owns the land and doesn't need to pay taxation to itself, it could build 1000s of cheap 20-30K $ council homes for the poors like they do every time there's a calamity or a earthquake, but nooo the housing mafia won't ever allow it and the politicians are owned by the bankers and the landlords.

so we're all doomed to pay mortgages for 20-30 yrs now just to get a roof on out head, this is ridicolous and will bring the fall down of the whole system sooner or later, see the situation in China where the housing bubble is reaching the point of non-return.

the cost of housing the is the single key factor impacting the economies of all the first world countries, salaries are high because rents and mortgages are high, inflation in high because of booming housing prices.

it's funny that we call ourselves "first world" when with the average salaries you can barely expect to buy a small home, a car, and having one single baby, all in exchange of a lifetime of work ... and you could lose it all overnight because of divorce or somebody suing you.

the first world is just like the third world but with bells and whistles.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 07, 2015, 00:16
Exactly! how can you be a fan of a ticking bomb?

I'm with you, but you have to be aware that Detroit has been destroyed by exactly the same failed policies debated in this thread. The American capitalism, at least the one that you have in mind, has been forgotten by the Detroit law makers who offered freebies from borrowed money only to get re- and re-elected again until the bubble exploded.

well, i say that mixed economies are the least evil option because i've seen it first hand in europe in the '70s and '80s and also now in china and in a few other less known cases in asia.

nothing will ever stop the horrible injustices going on in the world but when the government at least guarantees the BASIC human needs like housing, education, water, heating, all for a fair price, well that's certainly a step forward compared to a mercyless system like the US economic model.

detroit leaders exploiting democracy only shows that democracy is a failed concept, in china they gave death penalty to many corrupt politicians in the last 15 yrs, including the biggest crook of all, the mayor of Shanghai ...
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Hobostocker on April 07, 2015, 00:27
A lot of small bloggers will not be able to afford the new prices and the sales volume will drop for those contributors who stayed with the agency..
The small bloggers will lose their audience, and the ripple effect will continue, The advertiser revenue will drop, and so on.

not a single one of the small bloggers could afford to pay for a 10$ stock image in each article anyway.
but this means their business model is not sustainable unless they blog in text-only or stick with free or CC-licenced images, how is it our fault ? and why should we be concerned ? they're not out potential customers, and actually are the ones who steal images left and right giving nothing back.

same logic for enslaved underpaid guys grilling burger for minimum wages : either they accept earning a pittance or they go in street begging for money, which is probably much more profitable, and let burger king and mcdonalds figure out a solution for the sudden "lack of talent" ... again not my problem and by the way let the "market" fix itself as they say ...

grilling burgers and cleaning toilets is a sh-it job ... much harder and dirtier than an easy white collar job, i don't know in the US but in europe many blue collars are paid fairly exactly because no one want to do heavy jobs, i know people in construction jobs making more than a doctor and same for plumbers, electricians, and other skilled crafts where there's a lot of money going on.


Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Justanotherphotographer on April 07, 2015, 06:32
Quote from: BaldricksTrousers link=topic=24768.msg414693#msg414693
Obviously, nothing can be attributed to Socrates, since he didn't write anything for posterity. It's not in anything old, it's been made up recently and falsely attributed to old guys.

I think it is an attempt to paraphrase Plato on democratic man, but it is a mis-quote. Classical historian Peter Jones quoted the actual text on the History Extra podcast recently if anyone wants to search it out.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: gbalex on April 07, 2015, 08:28
At the bottom end employers will pay as little as possible.  If left to market forces we will have what we have had in the past, which was basically slavery and/or people working under horrible conditions.


exactly, or even not paid at all with the excuse of unpaid stages and internships, i can attest this sh-it is going on even in top-tier multinationals like IBM or Oracle, go figure...

the market forces don't care about the social consequences of all this, and the governments have abdicated from their natural role ... the entire West is de facto at the mercy of the greediest and most corrupt multinationals and speculators in housing, education, food, energy and pretty much any primary item humans need, sooner or later they will privatize even water with the excuse of global warming.


Long article but worth the read, not completely accurate but close enough, they sucked the middle class dry on a large scale and left many without retirement or jobs. 

The Subprime Mortgage Crisis Timeline
[url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url] ([url]http://tinyurl.com/37q963[/url])


Worked out good for me. I was able to buy a foreclosure for $75,000 in 2011, remodel it for about $15,000 and now I'm selling it for $150,000 after 2.5 years. All tax free because I used it as my primary residence and reinvesting it in a new, better house.


Your attitude simply amazes me. The only reason the mortgage crisis worked for you was luck. If you'd bought that house 5 years earlier, it would now be worth less than what you paid for it. But heck, it worked for you, so eff the suckers who could afford a house before you could.


It's horrible and unfortunate when someone loses their house. It's your home. It's your life. Here in the US a major reason for the housing crisis was people buying homes they couldn't afford in the first place.

Where I live a large percentage of foreclosures were "McMansion" $300,000US+ luxury homes. Before I went to buy a house I ran the numbers for my expenses, income, savings, etc, and figured out what I could afford. When I went to the bank the loan officer told me "you qualify for $XXX,XXX.". It was twice as much as the number I came up with. I told him "yeah, I qualify for that, but there's no way I could afford it." I'd be in foreclosure within months. But plenty of people bought houses based on what they qualified for which wasn't what they could afford. Why? Maybe some greed of wanting a nice house. Maybe ignorance not knowing what they could afford. Maybe poor planing and not having enough savings in the event one member of the household lost their job. Maybe just horrendously bad fortune.

I'm sure few people will agree with what I'm about to say because this is probably considered "old school" mentality. In my opinion we are increasingly moving toward a society where there's little self-accountability. When someone does something wrong or makes a bad decision it's someone elses fault. Commit an armed robbery and get shot by the convenience store owner? It's the store owners fault. Can't get a job? It's because somebody else isn't providing the jobs. Don't make enough money to live in an ultra expensive city? It's the business's fault and the government needs to force them to give higher pay.

I believe your fortune should only equal what you're capable of achieving. But we're increasingly headed toward a society of penalizing the hard workers and rewarding people who make bad decisions, perform poorly, or expect hand outs. The news is constantly reporting about the move toward only rich and poor. Should we be surprised that the middle class is disappearing?

So who's fault is it when someone buys a house they can't afford? Banks fault? Seller's fault? Foreclosure buyer's fault? Nobody is responsible for their decisions anymore.


Sure there are people who fit your description who lost their homes because of greed and poor judgement.

However there are many more who lost their hard won homes, business's, jobs, retirement moneys etc. through no fault of their own. If you were unfortunate enough to live in the states that lost huge numbers of jobs/business's and or had high home values that dropped like a rock it was not as simple as you portray.

It is easy to judge people when you don't know their circumstances and easy to pat yourself on the back while thinking that you work harder and make better choices, when that might not be the case.

It is more difficult to walk in another persons shoes or to have empathy for their plight.

What happen all over the world is a tragedy, the sub prime crisis was not just an American story it spread to many countries. If you look at American numbers alone, more than 7 million Americans lost their homes and roughly 30 percent of the money for all home purchases went to investors and Wall Street.

Housing prices were driven to all time highs thanks to new financial products spun on Wall Street. Those new products ended up being spread far and wide and were included in pension funds, hedge funds and international governments. Most of those products ended up being worth absolutely nothing and many people lost their pensions through no fault of their own.

When building ground to a halt so did the high paying jobs in the home building, lending, escrow, furniture and appliance markets. For every job lost in the building industry 7 others lose their jobs so the problem spread far an wide especially in the growth states and there were record numbers of small business bit the dust, many of whom had been successful for 20 or more years.

More than 2,000,000 of those foreclosed homes are now in the hands of some sort of investors (i.e., big money, foreign money, etc).  There have been permanent structural changes as a result of a stunning 7 million foreclosures.

Those who should have been held accountable have not been. Whats more they are doing it again.

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: ultimagina on April 07, 2015, 09:24

This is too bad, indeed. But everybody must understand that the root cause of all this evil is the government intervention. The government has "printed" money to cover-up the excessive borrowing required after too many unsustainable expenses.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the firsts one to benefit from this flow of new money are the banks. Banks can buy assets while the prices are still low.
The next ones in line to benefit are the big corporations, the first ones to work with those banks. Before the new money reaches common people, the prices have already caught-up with the new money, so the common people see their hard earned money vanishing through inflation. This causes social problems, so the same government issues new money and announces minimum wage increases to please their voters.

When the market is flooded with new money, the credit is cheap and  the banks have nothing to lose. Credit is offered to anyone.

The cycle continues, until the bubble bursts.

So all evil starts with the governments covering up the failed policies and buying their votes with artificial money.

Stop asking your governments for free money because, make no mistake: they will give it to you!

So you have your share of responsibility when you ask for artificial wage increases and vote the politicians ready to give it to you from money made out of thin air!

Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Uncle Pete on April 07, 2015, 09:54
You are both correct. Some people went in way over their heads, buying giant homes they couldn't afford, speculating. Also the bankers and investors were just far to happy to allow people to be foolish. Plus there were some economic changes which buried some other people.

There's not just one answer.


Sure there are people who fit your description who lost their homes because of greed and poor judgement.

However there are many more who lost their hard won homes, business's, jobs, retirement moneys etc. through no fault of their own. If you were unfortunate enough to live in the states that lost huge numbers of jobs/business's and or had high home values that dropped like a rock it was not as simple as you portray.

(clipped - but you are describing many Mid-West industrial states)

Housing prices were driven to all time highs thanks to new financial products spun on Wall Street. Those new products ended up being spread far and wide and were included in pension funds, hedge funds and international governments. Most of those products ended up being worth absolutely nothing and many people lost their pensions through no fault of their own.
 
(clip not that I disagree with one word of what you wrote)

Those who should have been held accountable have not been. Whats more they are doing it again.

Lucky me, I just lost everything, most of the business and my home, but I didn't have an upside-down $300 mortgage in order to do it.  8) Just loss of income, accounts, sales and customers.

I still say the lenders and Wall Street are the problem, giving money to people who can't afford to repay it. Doesn't matter much who's to blame, we all end up paying for this, while some of the fat cats, walk away with a bonus for "job well done".
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: JPSDK on April 07, 2015, 10:24
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: Shelma1 on April 07, 2015, 10:33

You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Don't be silly. We've been exploiting humans AND nature ever since we came over from Europe hundreds of years ago.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 07, 2015, 12:38
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: gbalex on April 07, 2015, 13:36
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

You can blame your government for that. A solution could be buying plane tickets to Denmark for your exploited illegal populations. They would be much better off living in a country with and an enlightened population that operates on a higher plane. I am sure they will all appreciate living in a country that offers a strong net of security with free healthcare, education and wellfare to all of its inhabitants.
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: No Free Lunch on April 07, 2015, 14:19
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

You can blame your government for that. A solution could be buying plane tickets to Denmark for your exploited illegal populations. They would be much better off living in a country with and an enlightened population that operates on a higher plane. I am sure they will all appreciate living in a country that offers a strong net of security with free healthcare, education and wellfare to all of its inhabitants.

There already is a country that treats everyone the same and all get medical and retirement benefits - China!
Title: Re: Seattle Wages Soar! Spread the wealth!
Post by: robhainer on April 07, 2015, 14:34
This is kind of an excistential discussion.
It is touching the mechanisms in society, and I have a few opinions, that I will not post here.

but I would like to add a few things:
You Americans seem to stirr the same old pot with rotten soup, and it is 100 years old. You have now come to a place in time and history where you cannot exploit nature more and have to exploit humans, being them domestic or abroad.

Thats a sad thing, to feed your greed on other people, and it happens a lot.

Now in Europe, we have been through some kind of evolution, from religious persecution to labour assotiations with endless wars in the background. Royalty and emperors have fallen, and are extinct now, but since we used up all our natural resources 1000 years ago we have found ways to control the exploitation of humans, else its simply not sustainable, we have had time to learn that.
But you guys in the New World havent, you sound like infants in a kindergarden, there are things that are not in your vocabulary, you are still in the exploit nature ot your neigbour faze. But you might just yet be coming our of it.

I live in a country where healthcare and education (universities) is free for everyone, and has been for at least 50 years.
That is good.
We have free healthcare, education and wellfare, meaning you get a place to live and money to support yourself if you cant otherwise.
So we have a strong net of security spread out underneat us. And it is a good thing, because although it costs in taxes, it evens out the differences and make people yeild more and be happier in the long run.
A good and simple point is that when people are educated and healthy, they can work better and produce more.
And that we do.
Cheers.

All that is fine in a monocultural society with a tiny, tiny population. Almost half the states in the U.S. have a larger population than Denmark. The United States has five times as many illegal immigrants as Demark's entire population.

So you really can't compare. It's not the same. All those things you say you get for free aren't free. Someone else pays for them. Our tradition and culture leans more toward self-reliance rather than reliance on central authority. Our ancestors left the kings and tyrants of Europe to build a new home for themselves without the help of central authority. That's how we evolved. I'd personally rather keep it that way. I know others will disagree, but I think we're better off.

You can blame your government for that. A solution could be buying plane tickets to Denmark for your exploited illegal populations. They would be much better off living in a country with and an enlightened population that operates on a higher plane. I am sure they will all appreciate living in a country that offers a strong net of security with free healthcare, education and wellfare to all of its inhabitants.

I'm sure Denmark would be able to afford all that stuff if 20 million immigrants were dropped on them.