In regards to social cohesion.
You must have missed the weekly bombings and shootings in the southern provinces. Or red shirt protests in Bangkok.

Yeah, we've had none of that sort of thing in the Western world over the last 40 years or so have we? Think IRA, ETA, PLO, Al Quaeda, Bader-Meinhof, Unabomber, etc, etc.

In terms of 'social cohesion' I was really thinking of the fact that families tend to look after all of their members from the cradle to the grave. They don't rely on the welfare or benefits system (because it it barely exists) and is certainly not a 'lifestyle choice' as it has become in the UK for example. Essentially all citizens are 'socially responsible' and don't expect the state to support them. Their own famiies will support them for sure in times of need but, guess what, they won't put up with someone choosing to do nothing for years at a time (let alone generations).

sooo ... traveling in cheap third world countries ?

i would say India, Nepal, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and most of rural and western China, i could also add part of Indonesia, some areas of Philippines, and Myanmar if we exclude Rangoon.

Thailand is quite expensive nowadays but at least there are many photographic opportunities, Malaysia instead is expensive and doesn't offer much.

Singapore is becoming quickly on par with europe pricewise, and HongKong even worse.
Indonesia is cheap and colorful, Philippines are basically a shithole but very photogenic.

India is amazing if you have the guts to like India, same for Nepal, but these places are NOT for everybody !
Myanmar is not so cheap but worth every penny for many good reasons.

Laos quickly becoming a disneyland, Cambodia too but it depends where you go, Vietnam still king of scams but getting so much better in every other department compared to years ago.

and now China .. the best of the best in my opinion, there's simply everything in china, but it's no more the bargain it was until 2008 ! Tibet is also closed to foreigners unless you go with an expensive tour group and tibet wasnt cheap even in 2006 so dont expect to scrap the bottom of the barrel like in Kathmandu !

Mongolia was relatively cheap in  2008, at least Ulaan Baatar, but going around can be 50 euro/each just for a 4x4 ride on unpaved roads, add absurd prices to sleep in tents and eat crap food, and the whole scenery is absolutely identical to northern Xinjiang where it's 3x times cheaper to say the least.

Conclusion : there's plenty of cheap countries in east asia, but it's up to you to be a cheap charlie otherwise you can easily end up spending more than in London if you only eat western food and sleep in 4 stars hotels etc !

can't see the reason also to waste 700$ for a return flight just to stay there 2 weeks, makes no sense, and what do you expect to see in just 2 weeks by the way ?

Australia and New Zealand!  fantastic countries,  so is the Scotish highlands, the isles, etc.

Quote from: lagereek on May 05, 2012, 04:28

Australia and New Zealand!  fantastic countries,  so is the Scotish highlands, the isles, etc.

Yeah I've heard so many nice things about NZ, that it's absolutely gorgeous. But I'll have to find 2k just for the plane tickets and lots more for spending there. And they're not 3rd world countries either

Lagereek, you'd be a great salesman. You'd try to sell a Porsche to someone who's looking for a 30k car

trouble is, these 3-world countries are overrated, photography wise, that is, exept maybe Thailand and Malaysia. I have travelled around Africa, etc and the guidance is sometimes non existant, accomodation is sometimes terrible and there is no security what so ever. It looks very nice on postcards but once you get there its a differant story,  believe me.

If you can get the money, trust me, New Zealand and Australia, you will come back and in no time, the pics will have paid for the trip. Thats the general idea, isnt it?

Closer at hand you have the Scotish Highlands, Cornwall down in the south west of Britain, Norway ( fantastic scenery),  these are highly commercial areas from where pics are selling like crazy.

Ahhhh Cornwall.  Beautiful.  Always feels like home to me, somehow.

Actually, Cornwall is beautiful. Went there a couple of times when I was a kid, it was really sunny both times, so felt like another country 

Ahhhh Cornwall.  Beautiful.  Always feels like home to me, somehow.

Just think of the little pirate villages like Mevagissey, Polperro, Cadgewith, etc. Beautyful and with a full pirate history.

Just think of the little pirate villages like Mevagissey, Polperro, Cadgewith, etc. Beautyful and with a full pirate history.

Ah yes, I've been to the first two, but I don't know Cadgewith.  Must check that out on next visit if I get a chance.

Sean would love it there, he could speak like a pirate every day  

Nice video of views across Cornwall here:

<a href="http://youtu.be/boNT46BMyWg" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/boNT46BMyWg</a>

@Microstock Posts.  I think it feels like another country whatever the weather.  Just gorgeous.

Quote from: lagereek on May 05, 2012, 10:54

Just think of the little pirate villages like Mevagissey, Polperro, Cadgewith, etc. Beautyful and with a full pirate history.

Ah yes, I've been to the first two, but I don't know Cadgewith.  Must check that out on next visit if I get a chance.

Sean would love it there, he could speak like a pirate every day  

Nice video of views across Cornwall here:

http://youtu.be/boNT46BMyWg

@Microstock Posts.  I think it feels like another country whatever the weather.  Just gorgeous.

What a lovely video and the MUSIC!  oh man I am going there this summer, for sure. I have been there a thousand times, even stayed there for 8 months and I never get enough of it. Its not just the scenery, its also the incredible history.

Could you drop a few lines on why India is not for everybody? As I said, out of the whole Asia, India is the only one that interests me (and I'm not that sure anymore lately, since I've read an article written by a photographer a while ago).

I don't hike, walk through the jungle for 3 days just to see some sight. Discovering nature etc doesn't interest me at all. I love going to the cities, check them out, observe how ppl live etc. I enjoy just sitting in a bar and looking around, having a good time with friends and relax. Sure, I go sightseeing as well, but that's really not a priority. In short, I go there without plans and just go with the flow. Perhaps I said only 2 weeks, because I'm not used going on long trips, since I only traveled around Europe, where 2 weeks is plenty if you visit just one country. Countries are small in Europe. But then again, you can see more in Venice that in country with 100+ million inhabitants. I was in NY once too, just for five days and yes, I'd definitely stay there for an extra week or 2. I'm going to Morocco soon and that's it for my trips outside of Europe.

India is simply the worst sh-ithole in asia, you will see what i mean, you will see ... hahaha

my only suggestion is escaping as soon as you can from the big megacities and sticking with medium-small towns.
however, no matter where you go, you can literally make wonderful photos at just every step, there's no other colorful place as india.

i'm also a city photographer, i don't care about shooting landscapes apart rare cases, for city action india will not disappoint you !
for anything else, hmm up to you ... the photos you see around in any RM agency are pretty much representative of what's going on : extreme poverty, mutilates, sh-it everywhere, rubbish everywhere, diseases, people sleeping on the road, nasty smells, holy cows taking a dump, and even rotten corpses flowing in rivers hahaha ... that's just the start actually, there's much more but i don't want to scare you.

2 weeks is wasted for a huge place like india.
in 2 weeks you could do Delhi, Jaipur, Varanasi, all on a rush, but forget about smaller towns nearby which are maybe even more interesting for photography.

i disagree also about 2 weeks being "plenty" for a country like France or Germany ... not to mention Italy that as you noticed can be overwhelming... too many things packed in one place, and what you do if it starts raining or the wheather suc-ks ?

which is true also for india, if you catch the monsoon season, or if you get stuck for whatever unplanned reason, india it's a mess, don't think you can plan too much or book everything online, you will only end up scammed, if you like ripoffs india is the best place in asia along with Vietnam and dont worry they will come to you, no need to move a finger

Well, since I am from latin america, I can just recommend you to travel as much as possible here. The thing with third world and first world doesn`t really make much sense anymore. It is not like everyone is after your money because you are a rich westerner. If you life in Sao Paulo and work in some advertising or a a professional you easily earn a lot more money than in a european country and living standards in cities like Buenos Aires, Santiago, etc. are very high meanwhile. They still have some "classic" third world problems, but IMHO the west is getting them too - now in the crisis - and, as someone else here said: they are learning fast and give a nice alternative route to western mentality.

In practical meanings: you have to be careful in every big city and check the neighborhoods where you plan on going/shooting upfront. It can be dangerous if you behave like a clueless gringo. Some Cities are more complicated than others and yes, there are problems, but nothing what should frighten you or make you not travel. I live here all my live and never happened anything to me personally, although I know others who had problems.

You should definitely see Rio de Janeiro, the nature and beaches of Bahia, Moro de Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires (a amaaaazing world class city), Mendoza, the Falls of Iguacu, the desert of Atacama, Ushuaia, the glaciers of Calefate, etc. etc. There is sooo much to see and I would be surprised if you would feel insecure here.

I sure do know about BRIC etc. And sure do know where Europe is heading. Greece has become a 3rd world country already. Are you from Brazil? I've heard terrible things regarding security over there. A friend that knows a photographer from Rio (or Sao Paulo, not really sure), told me how things look like. Wealthy ppl live behind double walls, that are 8m high with electrical fence on top of it and only one entry/exit for security reasons. When they get back home security personnel search the vehicle before letting them through the second gate, looking under the car in the trunk etc. Most wealthy ppl use choppers because of that. When they go to a mall they drive in a motorcade just like a member of the government, they go straight to the underground garage under the mall, they don't stop and security guards carry automatic weapons. Nobody stops at red lights (at night), everybody hides all valuables under the seats (handbags, phones etc), because if they spot something that peaks their interest, they just break your windows with a sledge hammer and take it. If you're unlucky, they take your life as well. Now, that's what I heard, not saying that's how it is, since I haven't been there. So how is it? As bad? And yes, I know there are soldiers on the streets of many other countries, like Egypt for instance, buses always get police escort etc.

And yes, I know it often really depends on how you behave. I'd really love to go to Mexico and Brazil, especially the latter, I love the mentality of the ppl, they're easy going, there are always parties on the streets, dancing etc. The climate is great, perfect really. The opposite of Asia, with reserved, pulled back ppl - and I know they're nice and smiling etc, but I just can't connect with their mentality and culture.

Quote from: wut on May 05, 2012, 04:13

Could you drop a few lines on why India is not for everybody? As I said, out of the whole Asia, India is the only one that interests me (and I'm not that sure anymore lately, since I've read an article written by a photographer a while ago).

I don't hike, walk through the jungle for 3 days just to see some sight. Discovering nature etc doesn't interest me at all. I love going to the cities, check them out, observe how ppl live etc. I enjoy just sitting in a bar and looking around, having a good time with friends and relax. Sure, I go sightseeing as well, but that's really not a priority. In short, I go there without plans and just go with the flow. Perhaps I said only 2 weeks, because I'm not used going on long trips, since I only traveled around Europe, where 2 weeks is plenty if you visit just one country. Countries are small in Europe. But then again, you can see more in Venice that in country with 100+ million inhabitants. I was in NY once too, just for five days and yes, I'd definitely stay there for an extra week or 2. I'm going to Morocco soon and that's it for my trips outside of Europe.

India is simply the worst sh-ithole in asia, you will see what i mean, you will see ... hahaha

my only suggestion is escaping as soon as you can from the big megacities and sticking with medium-small towns.
however, no matter where you go, you can literally make wonderful photos at just every step, there's no other colorful place as india.

i'm also a city photographer, i don't care about shooting landscapes apart rare cases, for city action india will not disappoint you !
for anything else, hmm up to you ... the photos you see around in any RM agency are pretty much representative of what's going on : extreme poverty, mutilates, sh-it everywhere, rubbish everywhere, diseases, people sleeping on the road, nasty smells, holy cows taking a dump, and even rotten corpses flowing in rivers hahaha ... that's just the start actually, there's much more but i don't want to scare you.

2 weeks is wasted for a huge place like india.
in 2 weeks you could do Delhi, Jaipur, Varanasi, all on a rush, but forget about smaller towns nearby which are maybe even more interesting for photography.

i disagree also about 2 weeks being "plenty" for a country like France or Germany ... not to mention Italy that as you noticed can be overwhelming... too many things packed in one place, and what you do if it starts raining or the wheather suc-ks ?

which is true also for india, if you catch the monsoon season, or if you get stuck for whatever unplanned reason, india it's a mess, don't think you can plan too much or book everything online, you will only end up scammed, if you like ripoffs india is the best place in asia along with Vietnam and dont worry they will come to you, no need to move a finger

Great post, very insightful. And colorful . Well it looks like it's even worse than I thought and that some ppl say. What about the ppl besides the constant rip offs, hassle from beggars, cab drivers etc? Nothing similar to what Bollywood is showing us? Happy, optimistic, "all is well" ppl?

I dunno, 2 weeks were decent for Spain. I was in Barca once before, so I didn't visit again and I also had to skip Baskia (I'd love to go to Bilbao and around). Germany doesn't interest me at all, for that matter, I don't care for Northern Europe. I've been there many times on short trips though. Visited Photokina in Cologne, been in Munich, Hamburg etc. I've been in Holland, France (Paris and saw a dozen castles when I was a kid). It's the same thing as with Asia, the mentality that is not close to mine, I can't describe it any other way. And it's expensive to, especially Scandinavia, if you also want to drink a few beers now and then. But I absolutely love the Mediterranean, Spain is great, Italy too (even more to see, regarding sights and architecture), great food in both cases, but my fav is Sicily, I feel in love with it. The nicest, friendliest, coolest ppl in the world, it's unbelievable and unreal. Lots to see, to discover, great food, everything is so relaxed and easygoing. Nobody cares what kind of car he's driving, all cars are old, smaller and dented from all sides. Ppl rather go to a restaurant and enjoy themselves then buy a shiny new car. It's the absolute opposite of money driven western mentality. You see sights you can't see anywhere else in Europe. You can just buy yourself a 0,66l Moretti or Heineken for a couple of � at Vucciria market in Palermo, sit in a bar and enjoy yourself. There are streets full of ppl, partying, the music is playing, barbecue is making delicious food (not hot dogs, burgers and similar junk food, but swordfish rolls etc). But yes, 2 weeks to really see everything, discover every corner isn't enough for big countries like France or Germany. But you can go a few times, it's not a problem if you're from Europe.

Your last paragraph is absolutely brilliant!

Quote from: wut on May 05, 2012, 13:52

And yes, I know what you mean, as I said I'm going to Morocco and I wonder what are the hygienic standards like (I heard from lots of ppl they're terrible). I don't care if the streets are filled with filth, crap and garbage, but I do mind getting dirty forks and plates in restaurants or stinking sheets in hotels for instance. So I'll decide about India, when I return from Morocco (I know it's even worse down there).

never been to morocco but it can't be worse than india, nepal, rural china, cambodia ...

dirty forks and sheets are the norm unless you go in 4-5 stars hotels, not to mention cockroaches, and much more.
if this is a deal breaker i'm afraid you better skip india and surrounding altogether but let me say this is not the real issue, the real issue are the endless ripoffs and scams, sometimes even by fellow western expats !

I plan to take a clean sheet with me to Morocco anyway. And you can always buy plastic forks and carry them around, drink straight from the bottle etc. I guess anything is possible if you want. I'd be willing to go through that, if I'd find the country fascinating

Quote from: wut on May 05, 2012, 14:06

So how is it? As bad? And yes, I know there are soldiers on the streets of many other countries, like Egypt for instance, buses always get police escort etc.

actually i've heard so many horror stories also about asia and also about some european cities too.
as it turns out it's always up to you, if you keep a low profile, if you raise your antennas, if you dress cheap, i mean in asia of course you will be always a potential target no matter if you dress like a hobo but i can say that if you look like a cheap charlie it's very hard to get into troubles, growing a beard can also help in my experience as well as being big and tall.

i went shooting in some of the worst slums in asia and not only i'm still alive but i havent got a single scratch, i risked a bit sometimes, and it could have ended very bad in a couple cases but i know how to deal with these guys as long as they're sober.

it's very easy to get into troubles in some areas where they would sell their own mother for a few bucks but still they think twice before robbing or attacking a stranger, the real problem is if these guys are on drug or drunk so you better avoid such places by night and run away but this is also true for some posh areas as well after midnight, you can never know ... there are dead foreigners every week in thailand for instance, and so in the philippines, but very very few in china, japan, HK, singapore, malaysia ...

the worst sh-it i've seen in europe for instance was in Rotterdam, and the Amsterdam, and the suburbs of london and paris and berlin, i don't feel too much safe in europe actually, at least by night and indeed it's gonna get worse in places like Greece and Spain where people is now desperate for jobs and for money.

i mean, it's just a 2 minutes job robbing a tourist of his camera+lens, kicking him from behind, beating him up on the floor, and running away with 1000s of dollars in stolen gear.

True. But if a country is generally * up when it comes to safety, why would I risk it? Like Mexico for instance. If they're killing federals and cops like flies. And many times civilians come under cross fire. These locos are just spraying.

That being said I also went in South Bronx alone, but I admit, when I was going back to the subway, I was sweating like a pig. Being the only white person there, you really stick out. And that was in the 90s, when armored buses used to take tourists there. But I just had to go, sticking to just the safest parts of Manhattan really gets boring. I went to Harlem etc as well.

Yes, in Palermo they have an interesting approach. They just throw a rock on your head from a balcony or a window and then collect the valuables. Or at least, that's what they were doing, it's supposed to be a lot safer now. I was there twice, once alone and nothing bad ever happened, but of course I stayed out of dark alleys and when I was alone, I usually went to the hotel after 10 pm. Especially after seeing policemen with automatic weapons on the street.