I had more than 100 transactions (both sell & buy) over some years and never had a problem

I'd say you're pretty lucky.

Bottom line= when we upload an image to the internet we no longer have control on it. Just a sad fact that we have to live with...

We do need a better method than watermarks for protecting images.

Unfortunately with using agencies and RF you have almost no control over your images. If somebody copies an image only the agency can tell if it's legit. Micro agencies have no incentive to look into it and they dont provide contributors with client names so it's like a store with no employees, door locks or security guards to see who's stealing. At least with RM you can track and sue infringers.

Funny that I just posted about RF licensing confusion and that some buyers dont understand the license terms and some dont care

These are very nice. If I were you I'd head more down the art/print and RM route. And establish yourself as a brand. You have a unique style.

I wouldn't put them in micro. I don't think they would sell in quantity so find a good macro site to work with where the higher price will make up for the low sales volume. A buyer who connects with your style will be willing to pay more money. As in hundreds of dollars. I just licensed a cityscape image for $400 and the business had no problem paying it.

Plus, if you're offering these images in micro and as prints, you'll be competing against yourself. Buyers price shop. If you have an 8x10 print listed somewhere for $50 and the buyer finds the image on micro for $5 and can print it at Walgreens for $2, why would they buy your print for $50? Answer is they won't and you'll get 50 cents instead of $25.

I was surprised at how many print buyers price shop. I was also surprised at how many interior designers use micro. They buy an image for a couple dollars, mark it up a few hundred dollars, and use it to sell a print to their client. And you get a few cents. When I pulled my landscape/cityscape stuff from micro I had quite a few buyers contact me directly asking me what happened to the image on the micro site and that they urgently needed it for a client project. When I started asking questions about what they planned to use the image for I was disgusted with the answers. Big money being made of which I had been getting peanuts.

My landscape/cityscape stuff I now only sell as RM and prints. Stuff like food, tech, and snapshots I leave in micro.

You have talent. Best of fortune to you.

Just got the email. No surprise.

It's bad news, though, because FAA is already a creaky mess that's going nowhere, and seeing the competition folding only makes things worse.   

I totally expect that at some point FAA will take the next step, and force their contributors down to tiny fixed markups like Zazzle did.   And if that happens, that's it - I'll have no place to sell.   No doubt the FAA guy (Sean Broihier) is licking his chops right now.

Their other site, CanvasPop, is about buying your own photos as wall art, pillows etc.  Apparently that's where they think the POD market is going.  What people really want is a giant framed photo of their kids, or their dog, or their vacation.

FAA may have some quirks but I'd say it's pretty impressive that he built it and runs it with a handful of people where other companies need dozens or hundreds to do the same thing. I sell pretty well there even with higher than average markups so I'd prefer he leaves it mostly alone minus more facelift changes and fixing bugs. I think if FFA went to forced small margins and rock bottom pricing the longterm outcome wouldn't be good for anybody including FAA.  My images that sell very well on FAA never sold at all on Zazzle even with way lower pricing. Same with RedBubble, CafePress, etc. They seem to attract people who don't spend over $100 and mostly buy a couple dollar refrigerator magnet. FAA has somehow found buyers who are okay spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on prints. Those are the buyers I want.

I liked Crated. Seemed very well designed. Not that I want FAA to do badly but yes would be nice to have a couple more sites to help diversify income a bit.

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on June 01, 2017, 21:52

Has SS changed much over the past 15 years? I wonder how much of the current system is band-aid'd 15 year old technology.

Look at part of a glassdoor review (from April 2017)
<snip>

Very interesting review and not really surprised. What I am surprised by is the site seems reasonably stable for having such a disfunctional tech team so kudos to them. I would expect to hear this more from ex employees of other sites that are known for releasing updates that are bug-ridden.

What's really funny is this used to be fairly normal up until about 15 years ago

I don't see why you'd expect an email.  I've never gotten an email when WestEnd, for instance, was adding partners.

Looks like the expectations bar has been set pretty low these days.

https://petapixel.com/2017/05/25/beware-500px-now-sells-photos-fotolia-without-credit

I don't remember getting an announcement from 500px about this. Why does that not surprise me?

Would be comfortable charging $50000 for a project you know you would normally charge $2000 for? I would think that's as bad/ worse than a client trying to blow ball you. I also just quote what I believe the fee should be.

Just because their budget is $50,000 doesn't mean you charge them $50K for a $2K job. I would guess that most photographers quote the lowest amount possible hoping to win the work. That means offering the most basic options. If you know they have some budget room to work with you could find out if they want barebones low price or to look at options that are a better fit for their needs.

Kind of like someone who says they want a custom size 10x26 print. I could just say "ok a paper print would be $100". Or if I ask them their budget and they say $500 I could offer them the paper $100 print along with some options of canvas, wood, metal, or framed that they may not know existed and like better than paper. I could also ask them why they want 10x26 to figure out if the size they're asking for is really what they need. Part of what I like about working with clients is helping them find something they really like or need instead of quoting one option or the cheapest option. If you try to just sell them something you get into problems like "why didn't you tell me you offered canvas? I would like to return this paper print because I'd rather have the canvas". Now you have an irritated customer who no longer trusts you and you just ate the cost of the first print they returned. Part of selling is helping clients figure out what they want to make them happy that they made the right decision instead of dumping the option on them you're hoping will get them to spend money with you.

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on May 24, 2017, 10:23

And a good tactic to avoid wasting time is to immediately throw an X-Y ballpark figure at them and see how they react. Nothing worse then spending a ton of time to come up with a quote only to find out their budget or cost expectations are nowhere near your estimate.

Buyer: Here's what I need. Can I get a quote?
Seller: Do you have a budget?
Buyer: No (Don't have one, can't tell you, etc)
Seller: Do you have an idea of what you're expecting this to cost?
Buyer: No (Don't know, cant tell you, etc)
Seller: Based on past projects I've done that are similar to what we just discussed the cost has usually been between X and Y ($1,000-2,000, $50,000-60,000, or whatever the normal range is), is that range what you had in mind?
Buyer: Yes (continue talking and provide formal quote) or No way I was thinking of no more than $25 (buh-bye)

That's too many questions for me. I'd do it like this:

Buyer: Here's what I need. Can I get a quote?
Me: sure, the price is X (or between X and Y).

Then the buyer either accepts the quote or I never hear from him again.

If you ask beforehand what their budget is, you allowing them to negotiate from the get-go. If I walk into a bakery, the baker doesn't ask me what my budget is either.
Now if the customer says: "it's a little higher than I expected", then you could always start negotiating if you want (without immediately giving them a discount).

Disagree. If you ask what their budget is beforehand if it's too low you can tell them it's not within your range and see if you can work something out. So what about if you tell them your X-Y first, say $2,000-3,000 and their budget is actually $50,000? They're most likely not going to tell you the actual budget now that you've given them a cheap quote. If you knew their budget upfront that may have allowed you to offer them more or better options for more than your initial X-Y.

Not sure a bakery is a good comparison to a custom photo shoot unless you offer prearranged packages. Then I could see starting with A/B/C package range to see how they react.

Quote from: PaulieWalnuts on May 24, 2017, 08:58

Quote from: Shelma1 on May 24, 2017, 08:28

Why would you offer wholesale rates to ad agencies? These are the places with the highest budgets. The client pays, not them. You offer them wholesale and they pad the budget with extra hours for supervising you, then bill then client for their extra time. They have a set budget from the client and they're going to spend every dime of it, then negotiate for more at some point.

Usually when they ask for it. Such as when their client is who found my image on my website and already knows what the licensing cost is so the agency's ability to markup is limited. For designers, it's almost always expected. My licensing rates are single-use and normally in the hundreds of dollars so even at wholesale the prices are probably considered high.

So what amount was your reasonable quote?

Ah. I see. So you're licensing existing work? Makes sense. This was custom work. I quoted them a price for the amount of time I figured it would take at my normal hourly freelance rate. It was less than I'd make in one year of licensing based on what I've made with illustrations in the same series. I figured if I could also put them online what I was charging them would cover my time getting input from them and doing revisions.

If they'd said the price was a little high but they were OK with not having exclusive rights, I might have continued negotiating. But saying other artists got 1/10 of what I wanted for a buyout was ridiculous.

Yes, for custom stuff the price is usually the price. If they want the price to go down then we start looking at reducing what they get for the price. If their request is unreasonably low then I normally thank them and let them know to contact me for other questions or to move forward with the quote.

I offer professionals such as ad agencies or design firms wholesale rates but I've gotten away from giving discounts. In fact, when someone asks for a discount or cries no-budget I now increase my price over normal rates. It's a surcharge for all of the extra effort that will be needed to deal with them. It has been my experience that people who ask for discounts or cheap prices are almost always high maintenance. They expect extreme hand holding, send emails to ask if you got the email or voicemail they left five minutes ago, can be indecisive, are demanding, or end up wanting to do a cancellation/refund after you've jumped through flaming hoops and spent a ton of time with them. It's usually not profitable. Why bother?

On my prints I offer a 30 day no questions asked return/refund policy. Most people are a pleasure to work with and I rarely have any problems. Most problems come from people who start off asking for a discount. Due to a recent high maintenance discount buyer I just changed my policy in the past week that I will offer a small discount but discounted sales are final with no returns, refunds, exchanges, or cancellations.