Etsy is a dump when it comes to digital files. They absolutely do not care about the origin of the images until someone complains. I have a shop on Etsy with my illustrations, a few sales a month, it's insignificant but it doesn't cost me any work. However, dozens of people sell my illustrations on products and as part of vector sets. I always report those sets. Every time they are clearly people from somewhere in Arabia, Pakistan, India or Africa. They create several shops in which they sell essentially the same sets, with similar graphics. Until their shop is closed due to complaints, they sell for hundreds of Euros and it pays off in their countries. Sometimes the place of sale is the US, sometimes Germany or another country. Etsy clearly does not care about this. And they have no problem having hundreds or thousands of sales a year per shop.

Many such sellers or listenings disappear within a few months. I know this because I have saved links to listenings using my images (I don't have the energy and time to deal with cases where they may or may not have licensed it, Canva is very benevolent when it comes to printing licenses).

So if you have the stomach for it, don't sell your stuff and steal online or generate anything colorful via AI. That's a successful business model for selling digital graphics on Etsy.

One example: A few days ago I reported my same stolen drawing on the store DigitalDreams008 from the United States (893 sales in 6 months) and DigitalDreams009 from Germany (1200 sales in 10 months).

I love Etsy!

It's great when your images become so popular that dozens, maybe hundreds of people on Etsy use them. Because of Canva's indeterminate commercial license, it's virtually impossible to separate unlicensed images from Canva-licensed images, where a combination of multiple elements is all that's needed to get a commercial license on Canva without specifying what "multiple" means. Wonderful!

The only things that are still realistically reportable are SVG bundles. But while my details are attached to my complaint, the person abusing my IP remains shielded behind a generic email and fake name. Great!

After the last batch of reports against shops with very similar graphics and identical names for similar bundles, I received a threatening email and now a series of similar emails asking me, as a "fellow artist", to remove my reports because they are "causing further harm to" the scammer's "livelihood" and the only source of income for his family. Amazing!

It's a joy to give 80-85% of your money to corporations and then spend hours of annoying communication with scumbags on other corporate platforms. In the end, I get nothing out of it anyway. Do you also take such joy in your creative work today?


Sorry for my post, I just needed somewhere to vent my frustration.

I don't see how we can break any rules when we are not the ones selecting the images for publication. Other sites check our images against some criteria and publish everything. On Canva, we upload images to a non-public server for Canva to choose from, and most of those that don't violate any known criteria are rejected anyway.

Do I understand correctly that the Supply Agreement became effective at the time of publication, because by creating an account on Depositphoto in the past we accepted any changes at any time in the future?
Usually, when the terms are unilaterally changed, the customer has the option to accept OR walk away. Not accept and THEN walk away.

Plus, if I have already accepted and then cancel the account, they have 90 more days to do whatever they want. Seems like a very balanced deal.

Last year I had one day with more then 1100 sales for same amount (most likely one buyer), various images. My usual amount is few dozens. So definitely its not only about quantity. It certainly seems safer not to draw Adobe's attention to it.

And be prepared that our livelihood could end at any time...

My Files => Manage Licenses => Sell the Rights (bottom gray box) => Deactivate all SR-EL licenses (blue text in lower left of the gray box)

So I looked up my PayPal and Payoneer fees.

I'm from an EU country where we don't pay in euros. So I can only withdraw in the local currency and there has to be a currency conversion each time.
---
Conversion from USD, rate from Google as relative reference for fee=0%
PayPal fee 3.7% (according to PayPal website it should be 3%)
Payoneer fee 2%

Conversion from Euro, rate from Google as relative reference for fee=0%
PayPal fee 3.5% (according to PayPal website it should be 3%)
Payoneer - unfortunately I don't have any Euros there

---
Incoming payment fee - some sites apparently pay it themselves, others let us pay it on our end:
Payoneer - $3   
- no fee SS, Getty, Dreamstime.
- with fee Adobe, P5, DepositPhoto, Vectorstock, 123RF

PayPal - different for various countries and various currencies. According to the PayPal site it should probably be 3.4% + 1.29% + $0.30 for me, but in reality it's 5.25% (from GBP) , 5.75% (from $) for me. I don't know why. The fees are very unclear.
- no fee Alamy, Big Stock, Vectorstock(a year ago), Adobe (a year ago)
- with fee Canstock, Signelements
---
New fee for account withdrawal
Payoneer - 3%
PayPal - 0%

----------------------------------------
Examples

With the incoming payment fee in USD on Payoneer I will pay $3+2%+3% fees :
for a payment of $100:  3 + 2 + 3 = $8
for a payment of $500:  3 + 10 + 15 = $28

Without the incoming payment fee in USD on Payoneer, I will pay 2%+3% fees:
for a payment of $100:   2 + 3 = $5
for a payment of $500: 10 + 15 = $25


With the incoming payment fee in USD on PayPal I will pay maybe 5.25%+3.7% fees (no guarantee, unclear fee structure):
for a payment of $100:   5.75 + 3.7 = $9.45
for a payment of  $500: 28.75 + 18.5 = $47.25

Without the incoming payment fee in USD payment on PayPal, I will pay maybe 3.7% fee (no guarantee, unclear fee structure):
for a payment of $100:  3.7 = $3.7
for a payment of $500:  18.5 = $18.5

(I know that the calculations are not accurate; for example, the exchange fee should be calculated on the remaining amount after deducting the incoming payment fee. I want to keep it clear)

(Interestingly, there is an inbound payment fee for Adobe on Payoneer (but not on PayPal a year ago), but SS-owned sites are fee-free.)

Conclusion:
Finally, the worst fee is for incoming payment on PayPal. Fortunately, it's usually not charged. With all the inaccuracy of my calculations - with this fee Payoneer wins, without it PayPal wins.

If you can make my calculations better, please feel free to do it. If anything is wrong, let me know.

Any option would be better than the current situation.

It is obvious that Adobe will not look for a solution because the 3% with Payoneer will come out of our pocket. So we have a real choice between PayPal and Payoneer.
I would like to ask if any of you have done any research recently, what is the real cost for European recipients for both? I was under the impression that PayPal was more expensive until now because of the exchange rate. But the difference was probably not 3%, so should Payoneer be more expensive now?

The fees quoted on the internet are not entirely clear and there is no easy answer without deeper research and calculations.
Thanks.

Quote from: MatHayward on January 09, 2024, 14:44
Information on payment options at Adobe Stock can be found here:

https://helpx.adobe.com/stock/contributor/help/getting-paid.html

-Mat Hayward

Thanks Mat for the reply but we are aware that we can choose PayPal, Payoneer and Skrill. Neither of these are ideal choices.

If we pay around 5% for transfer and exchange, perhaps Adobe could find and offer another option that would be cheaper or otherwise more convenient for contributors. Even at the cost of contributor financial participation. I can't believe that with Adobe's size, bargaining power, and reputation, it would not be possible to find some other option on solid terms with today's options. Even Canva is capable of that.

Thanks.

Hi Mat, I have a question for you - PayPal has unfavourable exchange rates and Payoneer will charge an additional 3% for withdrawals to bank account. Which means a further reduction in revenue for us.
Wasn't there a possibility that Adobe would include other withdrawal options for contributors?

I understand that this maybe means higher expenses for Adobe, but if my Adobe income is say $500 per month, then 3% means $15 loss each month + unfavorable exchange rate.
Wouldn't it be possible to give a choice of international bank transfer in $ ? Canva and MostPhotos allow bank transfers. Even for some fee, this could work out better for many contributors than via PayPal or Payoneer.
Thanks.

Quote from: everest on January 02, 2024, 11:26
I will look into that. I receive most of my funds in Dollars, and then I retrieved them to my European account. So I was already charged a currency exchange fee by Payoneer. Now this will be add to the new 3% fee. A dollar account could work but if Paypal does not charge anything (apart from the currency exchange fee) to retrieve to my bank account this could be a much better option I think.

I also keep hearing about Revolut. I wonder if the main stock agencies will provide this option in the future?

i just went to their site and their fees are so much better than Paypal, Skrill or Payoneer.

Quote from: pixdeluxe on January 02, 2024, 11:15
Correct me if I'm wrong but you should be able to set up a USD account in your own bank and transfer to your own bank with no conversion that doesn't incur the 3% transactional fee.

As per the email it states is only on USD to EUR transfers

Hope what I'm saying is right and that it helps

You can only withdraw money in local currency on Payoneer.
But if you can find some way to get $ or Euros into a bank account in a non-Euro paying European country, I'd be happy to hear it. Agencies should add more ways of payout. Many of us would probably find it more worthwhile to pay out of our own pockets for international bank transfer than PayPal and Payoneer fees.

Quote from: pancaketom on October 15, 2023, 00:05
Canva always had pretty random (to me) rejections. I have given up with uploading there.

I have a fairly high percentage of images accepted on Canva, but even to me acceptance seems largely random. I'm not trying to find logic in it anymore, just upload and forget is the best strategy.

Because under the amount it says: "We 've given your first payment a one-time boost and special thanks..." you obviously can't expect much in the next months, because the "boost" won't be there anymore.

Quote from: Asthebelltolls on October 13, 2023, 22:55
Buying a current agency already set-up and online is an excellent starting point, IMO.

You don't need your own agency. If contributors were able to act in a unified manner, then it would probably be no problem to agree with the most reasonable existing agency on some form of exclusivity.
The least reasonable agencies would be boycotted, leading to their demise, and everyone else would have no choice but to negotiate and give us a higher cut.

How much % are we really getting now? With unused subscription payments?  5-10% ?
Imagine the real value of our work if someone was paying us 50%.

But that should have happened 10-15 years ago, before microstock became a mob thing. It's too late now. With Ai, there's no chance at all.

Quote from: task150 on October 10, 2023, 20:40
Adobe, I deeply value our long-standing partnership and kindly request you to reconsider the decision regarding my account.

Here it is clear that what you call "partnership" for Adobe and other sites is not a partnership. Partners respect each other and work things out by agreement. Here, one side uses its significantly stronger position to do whatever it wants. Either of us can be out of income tomorrow and can just beg the higher-ups for mercy.

Quote from: Injustice for all on October 02, 2023, 18:56

Quote from: BelieveInStock on October 02, 2023, 18:39
Injusticeforall, you said you estimate to complete the task in 6 days full time job. Where are you from that you feel comfortable making $300 a week?

I am from one of the most expensive countries in the world:Italy.

yes,300 usd in 6 days of working from home,and friends home,in complete autonomy and freedom,is fine for me,but also because these photos of bananas can also be processed and added in my portfolio,because they are not just about bananas,but also about environments,kitchens,dining rooms and more,much more!

So you believe it makes financial sense to create hundreds of new banana images when adobe alone has 159,000 results for "bananas on the table" and at the same time you and heaps of others are just trying to teach Ai how to create an infinite number of more banana images? And also everyone else like you will upload thousands of their new "bananas on the table" pictures to adobe.
Then I can quite understand you considering $300 a good income for 6 days.
And I also understand that from your perspective you consider everything happening around Ai and microstock to be positive.

The problem with these discussions is that some of the contributors can't be considered real professional contributors, and then the whole debate is completely pointless. (I really tried to write that last sentence without offending anyone. It cost me a lot of effort.)

Quote from: Squaro on September 26, 2023, 15:21
Hi,
I have a portfolio of 1000 images at 123rf. I've had regular sales, small amounts since I signed up. But for the past 3 months I've noticed a drop in sales, especially since June  . I asked the site if my portfolio was still visible and they said it was.
But by doing my own research, I may have found the reason for this drop in sales. Since June, 123rf has implemented an AI-assisted search. And in the search bar, AI search is activated by default. I compared a keyword search with and without AI, and found that my images completely disappeared from the results with a search WITH AI! My best-selling images are no longer visible even after 20 pages of results...
A search without AI brings them back, but not as well as before!

I wonder if some of you could do some research along these lines and see if it's the same for you?

About the same for me. The drop in income in the last few months. Without Ai a several of my pictures on the first page, with Ai one image on page 3, one on page 6, two on page 7...

Even when I enter specific keywords that should match my images, Ai selects images that don't even have those keywords.

Quote from: lima on September 27, 2023, 01:11
They stop review new artwork years ago, no fresh content in this site :-(

Looks like you're right. I don't upload there for longer time, but my last images online are that uploaded in September 21.
I guess they're just living on inertia now.

They are now https://clipart.com/     or     https://vendor.clipart.com/admin/index.php   for contributor

Since we have no bargaining power, what should be in an ideal world is irrelevant. We simply get a one-time payment for using our copyrighted works to train AI, but all profits from AI then go to them. Legally, it's probably legal. We weren't asked if we agreed with use or the amount of the one-time payment, but that's obviously not a legal issue. We're just screwed and it's only a matter of time before we get kicked out and fully replaced. And this also applies to those who generate AI images, it makes no difference in principle, it's just a temporary fill in for the demand for AI images.

Quote from: Injustice for all on September 20, 2023, 11:54
@goober:

at least we agree on something:Istock.

people complain about Adobe and then contribute on Istock for a paltry 15% as non-exclusive,and I can guarantee you that I have sold many vectors on Istock at 15% when it should be 20%,It makes me think that perhaps the customer purchased the raster version of the vector,but I have serious doubts about this.

I created with my hands without taking inspiration from anyone and without stealing any ideas,content that I sold up to 30 times a day on Istock,yes,the same illustration sold 1 to 30 times a day,every day.

so Istock earned tens of thousands of dollars thanks to my work,I have been a contributor with them for 5 years,and do you know what the thanks were?

At the first problem that arose,instead of trying to contact me and ask for clarification regarding an issue that apparently they didn't understand due to the lack of knowledge of the creative software of those who make these decisions,instead of talking to me,they sent an email that effectively communicated that years of work and thousands of contents would be destroyed in one click.

so yes I support Adobe,because it is the best agency out there,and it is also the most present on this forum.

so if you also want to close with Adobe,where should you contribute?

Then you also have your reasons,perhaps there could have been an opt-out,but Adobe is still the best agency,it is perhaps not perfect but the most honest.

then why do you have to leave the forum?
we are here for a constructive exchange of opinions,trying to understand something in this strange world of microstock. Sometimes I will be right and other times wrong,like everyone else here,no one is always right,we all have our ideas.

We will probably continue to sell on Adobe and Istock because there is nothing else to do - there is nowhere else to sell and survive on.
And Adobe and others know this and are taking advantage of it. But bowing down to someone who takes advantage of our weakness and treats us unfairly, just because there are worse ones out there, is not really a reason to do so.
Feel free to kiss their boots and hope your work is niche enough.

Quote from: Injustice for all on September 18, 2023, 23:05

you're here complaining that Adobe used the content to train Firefly,instead of thanking them for thinking of a compensation model,because it wasn't written anywhere that Adobe was obliged to issue this Firefly bonus,as well as the contributor bonus for software,as well as the bonus for free collections.....I'm almost starting to forget all the bonuses that Adobe is continuing to give to support artists!

You must be a pleasure to do business with.
Adobe and others have twisted our agreement and used our copyrighted work for their business that will compete with our business, and in compensation they paid us a ridiculous amount that we certainly did not agree to. If you see anything there to thank them for, I'm surprised no one has yet to foreclose on your home and the rest of your possessions. If I take your $10,000 car and give you $20 for it, I assume you'll thank me for finding a way to compensate you for the loss of your property.

Quote from: mino216 on September 16, 2023, 19:50

Quote from: cosus on September 14, 2023, 20:05
We still hold the copyright, but they have taken an perpetual license to use our images and are paying us a one-time payment of an amazing $0.069 per image. At least that's the amount I got for each image. None of us would agree to something like that. But the way the agencies set it up, if you don't leave, you agree.

You have completely forgotten about one very, very, very important detail. Amount of sold images. 0,069 USD per image can be awful but also totally great amount of money. Let me explain, the following numbers are just for illustration of the concept.

Adobe will sell ordinary images for 1B USD and AI images (images created by AI trained on our images) for 10M USD per year. So, in our example case, they will sell 100-times more ordinary images than AI images. It is obvious that one cannot expect the same revenue from AI images as from the ordinary ones if they sell 100 times more. So, if your yearly revenue is... for example 10000 USD a year from 10000 images, it is totally fine to get anything above 1/100 of that (100 USD) per year from AI images.

So, the question is... do you really know what is the ratio between revenue from ordinary and AI images? I do not. Therefore, I cannot say if 0.069 USD per image is a lot or not. Can you?

The problem is that I didn't have a chance to agree or disagree with this use or the amount.
Adobe decided to pay me $0.069 and that's it for them. I don't want that money, I don't want to be part of the whole AI project. This is not what I agreed to. Adobe just made a decision and my work is forever a part of it and no one asked me. I can just walk away, but it's already done anyway. If I leave Adobe, I will lose 1/5 of my income and I would still have to leave SS and most others because they all behave similarly. Adobe and SS know this and are calculating with it.
I don't care if $0.069 is a little or a lot, because the whole thing is fundamentally a screw up.

Quote from: Zero Talent on September 14, 2023, 23:01

Quote from: PigsInSpace on September 14, 2023, 22:42

Quote from: cosus on September 14, 2023, 20:05

We still hold the copyright, but they have taken an perpetual license to use our images and are paying us a one-time payment of an amazing $0.069 per image. At least that's the amount I got for each image. None of us would agree to something like that. But the way the agencies set it up, if you don't leave, you agree.

On a purely per-image uploaded basis, my total is different: $0.118, so the metric must be something else. Mat said it was heavily weighted toward sales totals, so they must be ignoring the pictures I have of box elder bugs that no one has ever bought

For me it's $0.51 for every image in my port.
This shows that not all images are treated equally.
Big concern for me, when I see this number!

Maybe they have a system, or maybe they're just rolling the dice on who gets how much. Either way, they're using their stronger position against us. As a professional graphic designer, I declare that Adobe will not see another penny from me for their software. Sorry Adobe, I just lost a lot of money over the next years and I need to save some money somewhere.

Quote from: Jo Ann Snover on September 14, 2023, 17:44
But we still hold the copyright to our work, with whatever value the buyers will place on that over time.

We still hold the copyright, but they have taken an perpetual license to use our images and are paying us a one-time payment of an amazing $0.069 per image. At least that's the amount I got for each image. None of us would agree to something like that. But the way the agencies set it up, if you don't leave, you agree.