Your division of photographers into pros or happy snappers is very simplistic. Long before I joined mictostock I was a camera club member with an interest in nature and landscape photography. I travelled long distances to good locations, spent many many hours in the darkroom processing (B&W only, not color), mounting prints for club comps etc. Also pushing my creative boundaries. I also shot pics for the school where I worked - sports events, drama, music, formal balls, products from the woodworking and cooking classes, etc. This was mostly to learn to be a better photographer (and be somewhat useful as well). All for no pay because it was my abiding passion. I don't think I'm alone amongst microstockers.

If your microstock adventure is entirely about passion, and you have no hope in hell of making a profit out of your efforts, what exactly is the point of discussing break-even points and, as if one some misguided mission, not even bothering to calculate the break-even point properly?

You microstockers live in this Lala land of make believe where everyone hides their monumental failures by discussing everything in generic business terms. 

"This is my BME!"

"I'm up 34% year-to-year!"

"I broke even after only a few months!"

"My expenses are only 15% of my gross!"

Why not just tell it like it is?  How about:

"99% involved in microstock do not make a profit.  The majority don't even treat it as a business."

"It's an expensive hobby that allows me to pursue my passion for photography while enriching my agents with my free labor."

I do agree that if stock was my primary source of income that of course time would be calculated into the break-even.  For me, it's not.  The hours I have put in have not taken away from paying work so I'm not sure how I could apply an hourly rate.  If I have time and feel like doing it, I do it.  Stock has actually enabled me to improve my day-job earnings by upgrading equipment.  So, if I am not paying myself an hourly rate, I normally break even the moment I have my first sale.  
...
Wilddingo, I would be interested in your point of view.  I think you will tell me not to sell to micros.  I am not on macros, so then what is my option?  Alamay?  I have not heard of any wild success stories on Alamay (but I only really know micro shooters).  Should I split the photos up and send some to micro and some to Alamay?  At least 60% of the shots from this location will have models.

Dude, if you want to be successful in business, you need to understand what's a business.

You form a business to earn a profit.

In business, there are standard ways to calculate revenue, costs and profit/loss.  It's quite simple.  It is of little relevance if you personally think your labor should be included in your costs or not.  In the business world, the rules are already made for you, you don't make 'em up as you go along.

Since you've chosen not to track your labor it only means that, as a business owner, you have absolutely no idea how your business is performing.  That's all.  Don't think that you're automagically sitting on a goldmine just because you decided to cook the books by doing improper accounting.

The fact that one can cruise the microstock forums and hear tales of people "making money" and "breaking even" only serves to perpetuate the myth that microstock is a legitimate business model, with legitimate business objectives, which it isn't.

It shouldn't even be called a "business model".  Any activity where 99% of participants do not make a profit shouldn't even have the word "business" in it.

What you have is a hobby:

n. pl. hob�bies
   An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure.

So, I can't even take your question regarding micros, macro or Alamy all that seriously.  Business is not about micro or macro.  It's about profit.  You're treating stock photography like a hobby.

If you've got $500 to burn, stamp collecting might be a better option for you.

Dingo, how about introducing yourself?

Sir Denis!  I missed you!  Have you quit your security guard job yet and embarked on a high-flying and challenging microstock career shooting various objects on perfectly white backgrounds?

Since you want to know more about Dingo... Dingo likes poetry and long walks on the beach and I absolutely love it when someone tosses me a frisbee in the water!

My strong traits are being able to sniff lies and inaccuracies from a mile away and my weakness is having the urge to pee on someone's leg from time to time.

I have a full-time job being man's best friend sniffing suitcases and crotches at the airport.

I'm also a part-time microstock tormentor.  It started as a hobby, but I'm hoping to go pro sometime in the next 30 years.  I have a lot of free time on account of my bitch, Mrs. Dingo, being in heat only once a year, and eHarmony.com not quite working for me if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm losing money on this tormenting thing for now, but I'm hoping to make it up in volume.  I'm already up to 56 posts in just one month.  At this rate of month-to-month growth, in three short years I'll have close to, ohh I dunno, maybe 3 million posts give or take a million, full of microstock facts and wisdom exquisitely crafted and easily searchable to remind microstockers of their imbecility.

I'm currently working on an exciting web project called iSyndicator where I write my tormenting posts just once, then syndicate them to various microstock forums.  It's the 21st-Century way of flingin' the crap.  It's like taking crap and spreading it as far and wide as possible hoping that it will hit someone somewhere.  The great thing is that it allows me to keep stats on how many microstockers are being tormented by my posts which gives me great satisfaction.  I already have a wall-full of tearsheets made up of tormented microstocker replies.  It's a great marketing tool for a tormenting newbie like me who wants to become established.

So as you can see we lead, ironically, symbiotic lives. 

Microstockers enjoy being failures, and I enjoy reminding them!

I know a couple of Alamy devotees who basically ended up there because they couldn't actually hack it in microstock; the technical standards were too high if they couldn't 'self-edit' and their stuff didn't sell much if it did actually get accepted. Judging by a few searches it would seem that plenty of Alamy photographers can't even achieve a basic isolation-on-white, they think it means having a grubby sheet as a background. That's self-editing for you __ nobody told them that their images are crap.

HERE Doggy, Doggy, Doggy! Come to microstock __ there's good boy!

You're on a rapidly sinking ship my friend so you'd better start practicing your doggy-paddle (geddit) if you want to survive. The future is stock __ not micro, not macro, just stock.

Dude, listen, I'm here for you anytime you need, OK?  If it makes you feel better to go on some sort of psychotic rant against Alamy just to get it out of your system, I'm fine with that.

But Einstein, are you seriously implying that if Alamy ever fails (and Dingo couldn't care less if they did), that the only other option is microstock?

You haven't been bit by a rabbid dog recently, have you?

Ive  tried  uploading  to  alamy.  I  need  to  resize  my  pics.  How  do  i  do that?

If you have to ask this, have you considered that perhaps you should just enjoy photography as a hobby and not even bother getting involved with stock?

If you don't know how to upsize, then your photography skills are at a level where you simply cannot be efficient or successful regardless of micro or macro.

In the same timeframe where you made your first sale on Alamy, how many (if any) sales were made on other Micro sites?

Why are you asking him to compare sales he made in ONE non-micro site with the sales he made on ALL micro sites?

Quote from: wilddingo on September 12, 2009, 08:46

Quote from: jwohlfeil on September 12, 2009, 08:25

In comparison, you can sort by sales on Alamy and their top 20 images have sold 47.

Dude, what have you been smoking??

Nothing yet, too early in the morning.

Check Alamy - you can look for yourself. Goto My Alamy, AlamyMeasures 2.1 (beta) - All of Alamy. Then click on SALES to sort by number of SALES - and see for yourself.

Then smoke one for me!

What are �Sales�?

The number of sales we can reliably attribute to a search term for the time period specified. Sales data is not comprehensive because the nature of customer activity means that we cannot link all sales to search terms.

I think it�s a good time for you microstockers to pause and thank heavens that you�re part of an industry where high-quality contracts that reward you handsomely for your work are the norm, an industry where 99% of you do not work for free, an industry where getting published without a credit is so rare, an industry where agencies are so fair and sensitive that it�s truly hard to understand why anyone would want to be someone else�s photography �slave�, an industry�

You humble me yet again, Mr. Dingo.  But I assure you that your wisdom has convinced me of the folly of my actions and I will give up.  But it's a shame.  I just checked today's figures and it will be a best sales day ever for me. 

Dude, this is your best sales day ever and you're still earning less than $14/hour, closer to $10/hr after expenses.

The pimple-faced kid STARTING at a McDonald's gets paid around $8/hour.

Yep, it is a shame.

For any beginners following this thread, you've now read both sides of the story: the success story of someone who has done his research, figured out a niche and is making it work (also see cthoman's post), vs. the skepticism and anger of folks who either blame microstock for ruining the world or couldn't figure out how to make it work for them.

You've been doing microstock for less than a year and you're giving advice to beginners?

You want to leave the thread because you've come across someone who is not smoking the same stuff as you and presents you facts and truth, which in your arrogance you confuse with skepticism and anger.

Here are the facts as stated by you.  These are your own figures.  I've added some additional information so the whippersnapper beginners can see exactly what is going on in your delusional world of microstock success.  It's hard to show tabular data on forum posts, so I've listed the column headings in order.  All the information is there if you look at it carefully:

Columns are in the following order:

1. Month   
2. Earnings/ day   
3. Earnings for month   
4. Total earnings (cumm)   
5. % Growth (month to month)   
6. Hours worked (cumm)   
7. $/hour (cumm)

11-08   $4.02   $121   $121      60   $2.01
12-08   $9.80   $294   $415   144%   120   $3.46
01-09   $13.65   $410   $824   39%   180   $4.58
02-09   $20.86   $626   $1450   53%   240   $6.04
03-09   $26.97   $809   $2259   29%   300   $7.53
04-09   $26.80   $804   $3063   -1%   360   $8.51
05-09   $39.36   $1181   $4244   47%   420   $10.10
06-09   $47.79   $1434   $5678   21%   480   $11.83
07-09   $47.50   $1425   $7103   -1%   540   $13.15
08-09   $51.35   $1541   $8643   8%   600   $14.41


So our hamster friend here with unique "niche" material has made the equivalent of $14.41 per hour after his first 10 months in microstock and before all expenses are deducted.  In that short period his month to month growth was negative twice and is now at 8% for Aug-09.

He's projecting that his growth will continue at 9% each month, which means he'll achieve about $100/day earnings sometime in April '10.  Here's what it will look like:

04-10   $102.32   $3070   $27161   9%   1080   $25.15

He has said that his long term goal is to achieve $300/day in earnings, which at 9% monthly growth will allow him to get there in May '11.  After about two and a half years, our friend will have made the equivalent of $55.89 per hour before all expenses.

05-11   $313.69   $9411   $103959   9%   1860   $55.89

If we continue smoking whatever he is and keep going at 9% growth each month, he'll be earning $37,363 per month and $157/hour before expenses exactly three years from now:

09-12   $1245.43   $37363   $442494   9%   2820   $156.91

And in five years, $295K per month and $838 per hour:

09-14   $9852.74   $295582   $3569813   9%   4260   $837.98

This is the scenario he has presented as plausible and the dream he is pursuing.

But, here is what it will look like in five years if his monthly growth stalls:

09-14   $55.97   $1679   $111068   0%   4260   $26.07

In other words, if his delusional growth stops, after almost six years in microstock he will have made the equivalent of $26 per hour before all expenses.  I'll leave you the exercise of calculating how much he'll keep after you subtract all the thousands of dollars of expenses he will have accumulated.

In truth, what will most likely happen is that his growth will not only stall, it will reverse course into negative territory and our hamster friend will have to work much harder at the wheel to maintain the same level of earnings he saw in the past.  Once he starts doing this, his hourly wage will dramatically drop.

He doesn't know this yet because he's a newbie and, for him, ignorance is bliss.  Humans are wired to be optimists when they're doing something they like.

It takes a super hound like Dingo to sniff out the flakey logic in microstockers' fantasy world.

No 'Dude'. I was simply using MBI as an example of an evidently highly successful and business-savvy individual who seems to be putting a lot of effort into microstock. Maybe you could learn something from her and others instead of whining constantly about microstock.

The only thing your example illustrates is that only someone with years of industry experience and $20 million in the bank can finance a serious attempt to achieve the massive scale required to make a profit out of microstock.

It's a predictable reflex among microstockers.  You boobs always pull up these "examples" of "pros" whose realities are a world away from your own because that's how you keep your microstock daydreams alive.

You can't use yourselves or your peers as examples because there ain't many of you who can claim to be successful on purely business terms.  Goes to show how sustainable microstock is as a business model.

Anyway she's been uploading nearly 1000 images a month to micro for the last 18 months. From her sales in her first year on micro it would appear that she made about $200K, not bad from a standing start, and that will most likely be doubled or trebled in the second year.

"Not bad"?

Dude, how . can you tell whether a business is "not bad" by only looking at the estimated revenue figures?

Or do you conveniently forget to quote profit figures out of microstock habit?  Is this how you and your microstock hamsters keep up their delusional microstock aspirations going for so long?