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Author Topic: How to shoot static timelapses  (Read 12793 times)

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« on: January 08, 2018, 08:23 »
+1
Static timelapses.
How to shoot them with examples on the field
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsMLJCSQHB0


Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2018, 13:01 »
0
Static timelapses.
How to shoot them with examples on the field
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsMLJCSQHB0

Good explanations. I will add tha clouds changing the exposure will drive you crazy. For me that's worse than anything else as the images will not only change color balance but get lighter and darker and lighter again. I enjoyed seeing the water change from sharp to smooth with the different shutter speeds. I generally try to get overall sharp images and now I see there's room for a softer version to look just fine.

Mostly calm waters reflections, Sunset, (a million others similar) ducks swim in on cue?  ;) 5 seconds between shots, 24 seconds total once it was assembled.

https://ak8.picdn.net/shutterstock/videos/2072288/preview/stock-footage-sun-setting-over-a-marsh-lake-as-clouds-pass-overhead-with-reflections-in-the-water-time-lapse-anim.mp4

« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 05:58 »
0
Thank you for your input.
Yes, ND filters give of lot of freedom to play around with slow shutter speed.
Timelapses are not easy, a lot of things to control, especially flicker

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 09:00 »
0
Thank you for your input.
Yes, ND filters give of lot of freedom to play around with slow shutter speed.
Timelapses are not easy, a lot of things to control, especially flicker

And how do you do that? I think I used to use frame blending. For now I haven't made, or tried to make a decent time-lapse in some time. I recognize that controlling the exposure and making lighting consistent will help make the flicker less evident.

What do you suggest?

Here's one I tried to save but I didn't want to spend a whole day on something that was just for fun. Flower (actually a dandelion) fairly full day cycle, with insects. It jumps and the shadows are a killer for ruining what I intended. Also looking for advise or suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9qQ7biW70

Some of the others are just a GoPro on a mount of some sort. Especially fun was driving across the state, one highway, state 33, the whole way, from the Mississippi River to Lake Michigan. I boosted it up to 60fps to make the video version shorter. Around 235 miles on mostly two lane roads, through towns, up and down a mountain in a state park... sometimes I do stupid things, just because they are there to do.  8) GoPro was mounted on the dash and had continuous power from the car power, batteries would have never lasted that long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhrC34nOkyo

At Sunset the GoPro will go nuts, compensating, bright, dark, bright, dark.  :(

« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 09:40 »
+1
And how do you do that? I think I used to use frame blending. For now I haven't made, or tried to make a decent time-lapse in some time. I recognize that controlling the exposure and making lighting consistent will help make the flicker less evident.

What do you suggest?

Everything on manual, WB, ISO, fixed shutter speed, locked aperture (disconnect lens from camera) will eliminate any flicker introduced by the camera. Of course, flicker introduced by nature itself is harder to control.  :D

Sometimes it makes sense to use some form of auto mode, with Auto ETTR being the best if your camera supports it. Your driving video, which is cool, is a good example. Something spanning a very long time with radically changing conditions (tunnels, shade, etc. etc.) needs to have exposure changes.

This will result in flicker, but it can usually be removed in post. The best tool for this is Flicker Fixer by Boris FX. It works wonders.

Ideally though, I would have used a much longer shutter speed to create motion blur on the road and passing cars. Hard to do on the GoPro since the aperture is fixed, but there are ND filters you can buy.


Here's one I tried to save but I didn't want to spend a whole day on something that was just for fun. Flower (actually a dandelion) fairly full day cycle, with insects. It jumps and the shadows are a killer for ruining what I intended. Also looking for advise or suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9qQ7biW70

This one is cool too. Hard to foresee insects and clouds, but a longer shutter speed could've been used to smooth out the insects.

But as with most things, it's the subject matter that's most important. I see timelapses full of flicker in big tv shows and movies, and they seem to accept it. Boris FX Flicker Fixer would turn both of your timelapses into flicker free, smooth clips.

And no, I don't work for Boris FX  ;D - it's just the best flicker fixer I've found, and I've tested MANY...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:43 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 21:44 »
0
I've used manual for most of mine but, I have a friend that shot a 3 day timelapse a year or so ago and he swears by Aperture Priority. I tried it once on a sunset and all it did was destroy the tonal range.

You can blur the flickering a bit with longer shutterspeeds but, anything moving will be blurred also and might not look great (For instance I don't like the blurry clouds on the 1"6 exposure.)

Vic, the next video that played was the lightroom tips video. If you set up the SSDs in raids you can essentially get storage space, speed, and redundancy.

I've wanted to do that for years but, the resources always just seem out of reach :/

« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2018, 04:25 »
+1
I've used manual for most of mine but, I have a friend that shot a 3 day timelapse a year or so ago and he swears by Aperture Priority. I tried it once on a sunset and all it did was destroy the tonal range.

It all depends on what you are photographing and what end result you want. If you shoot a sunset with the sun as the main subject, you might just want the sequence to go from light to dark when the sun is gone. If there is nothing interesting left when the sun has set, it doesn't make much sense to raise the exposure. Manual, fixed exposure is your choice then.

But if you are photographing a city with a setting sun, you might want to show the city light up after the sun is gone. Now you need to gradually increase the exposure. The easiest way to do this is with the aperture priority mode and fix the flicker in post. Auto ETTR could be even better as the camera analyzes the histogram after each picture.

Sony cameras have more consistent metering than for example Canon cameras, resulting in less flicker in AP mode. There will, however, always be flicker since the incremental changes in shutter speeds are not that small.

You can blur the flickering a bit with longer shutterspeeds but, anything moving will be blurred also and might not look great (For instance I don't like the blurry clouds on the 1"6 exposure.)

For motion blur that matches standard film, just use a shutter speed that is half of your interval. If you take a picture every 5 seconds, a 2.5" shutter speed will result in "natural" motion blur.

« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2018, 06:54 »
0
I've used manual for most of mine but, I have a friend that shot a 3 day timelapse a year or so ago and he swears by Aperture Priority. I tried it once on a sunset and all it did was destroy the tonal range.

It all depends on what you are photographing and what end result you want. If you shoot a sunset with the sun as the main subject, you might just want the sequence to go from light to dark when the sun is gone. If there is nothing interesting left when the sun has set, it doesn't make much sense to raise the exposure. Manual, fixed exposure is your choice then.

But if you are photographing a city with a setting sun, you might want to show the city light up after the sun is gone. Now you need to gradually increase the exposure. The easiest way to do this is with the aperture priority mode and fix the flicker in post. Auto ETTR could be even better as the camera analyzes the histogram after each picture.

Sony cameras have more consistent metering than for example Canon cameras, resulting in less flicker in AP mode. There will, however, always be flicker since the incremental changes in shutter speeds are not that small.

You can blur the flickering a bit with longer shutterspeeds but, anything moving will be blurred also and might not look great (For instance I don't like the blurry clouds on the 1"6 exposure.)

For motion blur that matches standard film, just use a shutter speed that is half of your interval. If you take a picture every 5 seconds, a 2.5" shutter speed will result in "natural" motion blur.

Obviously, you've done them more times than I have. His 3 day set was of a snow storm, shooting through the night the same as shooting through the day would be impossible. lol. Still, it defeats the purpose if you're after the dynamic range included in say, those guys flower shots. Or at least mutes them a quite a bit.

Yeah, "natural" motion blur is what we'll call it ... most of the time I'd just call it a poor shot. (The only acceptance being night photography) ...

I don't do video though, and have yet to post one on micro ... I applaud you people paying the bills with this.

« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2018, 10:59 »
0

And how do you do that? I think I used to use frame blending. For now I haven't made, or tried to make a decent time-lapse in some time. I recognize that controlling the exposure and making lighting consistent will help make the flicker less evident.

What do you suggest?
When you use ND filters, a much smaller amount of light reaches the sensor, so you can go for much slower shutter speed in even full daylight, assuming that you are using a tripod.
I suppose you are talking about frame blending in After Effects? I sometimes use it and it can give interesting result, but controlling shutter speed is much more important, especially in timelapses based on movement of people, cars, waves, boats, and so on

« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2018, 16:06 »
+1
And how do you do that? I think I used to use frame blending. For now I haven't made, or tried to make a decent time-lapse in some time. I recognize that controlling the exposure and making lighting consistent will help make the flicker less evident.

What do you suggest?

Everything on manual, WB, ISO, fixed shutter speed, locked aperture (disconnect lens from camera) will eliminate any flicker introduced by the camera. Of course, flicker introduced by nature itself is harder to control.  :D

Sometimes it makes sense to use some form of auto mode, with Auto ETTR being the best if your camera supports it. Your driving video, which is cool, is a good example. Something spanning a very long time with radically changing conditions (tunnels, shade, etc. etc.) needs to have exposure changes.

This will result in flicker, but it can usually be removed in post. The best tool for this is Flicker Fixer by Boris FX. It works wonders.

Ideally though, I would have used a much longer shutter speed to create motion blur on the road and passing cars. Hard to do on the GoPro since the aperture is fixed, but there are ND filters you can buy.


Here's one I tried to save but I didn't want to spend a whole day on something that was just for fun. Flower (actually a dandelion) fairly full day cycle, with insects. It jumps and the shadows are a killer for ruining what I intended. Also looking for advise or suggestions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vM9qQ7biW70

This one is cool too. Hard to foresee insects and clouds, but a longer shutter speed could've been used to smooth out the insects.

But as with most things, it's the subject matter that's most important. I see timelapses full of flicker in big tv shows and movies, and they seem to accept it. Boris FX Flicker Fixer would turn both of your timelapses into flicker free, smooth clips.

And no, I don't work for Boris FX  ;D - it's just the best flicker fixer I've found, and I've tested MANY...
Thank you,
a lot of excellent input.
I will certainly check out Boris, and I hope he will give you a big Xmas present.
 :)

« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2018, 05:14 »
0
I've used manual for most of mine but, I have a friend that shot a 3 day timelapse a year or so ago and he swears by Aperture Priority. I tried it once on a sunset and all it did was destroy the tonal range.

You can blur the flickering a bit with longer shutterspeeds but, anything moving will be blurred also and might not look great (For instance I don't like the blurry clouds on the 1"6 exposure.)

Vic, the next video that played was the lightroom tips video. If you set up the SSDs in raids you can essentially get storage space, speed, and redundancy.

I've wanted to do that for years but, the resources always just seem out of reach :/
Hi Dallas,
I have exactly this kind of set up: 4 SSD in RAID, and yes, they are very fast

« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2018, 07:06 »
0
I would like to add that form my timelapses I use a micro four third camera (Panasonics GH4) with a Metabone lens adapter and good quality Nikon lenses.
I also avoid the use of aperture priority, I shoot everything manually. I don't get any kind of flicker.
I will try this Boris app, because if I found a way of completely get rid of flicker in post, I could use some native micro 4/3 lenses and use the stabilisation (for timelapses hand held when the use of a tripod is not allowed) and I could do some aperture priority timelapses for transitions from day to night

« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2018, 23:19 »
0
LRTimelapse has wonderful deflicker. I've never had a clip I couldn't fix. I now shoot the majority of my time lapses in A-priority making high dynamic range transitions super easy to deal with. Also a lot cheaper that Boris  :P

« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 07:09 »
0
LRTimelapse has wonderful deflicker. I've never had a clip I couldn't fix. I now shoot the majority of my time lapses in A-priority making high dynamic range transitions super easy to deal with. Also a lot cheaper that Boris  :P

It's not wonderful compared to Boris. And it's incredibly slow with no customization of the parameters used to analyze... It's nice to fix some of the flicker at RAW level though. You might sometimes get the best results by first using LRTimelapse and then Boris, but normally a giant waste of time.

I avoid LRTimelapse altogether since I find it clumsy, slow, and sometimes it even introduces flicker. Big changes in Lightroom (like clarity, dehaze, raise shadows etc.) are not optimal for timelapses as each image is not processed exactly the same.

This can result in flicker that cannot be fixed. Furthermore, LRTimelapse forces you to use Adobe2012, which introduces flicker, instead of Adobe2010.

My personal workflow is to make minor tweaks at RAW level, export a high quality video file and do all color grading and creative tweaks in After Effects (or any other program like DaVinci that is made to work with video).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 07:15 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 12:50 »
0
LRTimelapse has wonderful deflicker. I've never had a clip I couldn't fix. I now shoot the majority of my time lapses in A-priority making high dynamic range transitions super easy to deal with. Also a lot cheaper that Boris  :P

It's not wonderful compared to Boris. And it's incredibly slow with no customization of the parameters used to analyze... It's nice to fix some of the flicker at RAW level though. You might sometimes get the best results by first using LRTimelapse and then Boris, but normally a giant waste of time.

I'm sure Boris is much better (I've never tried it, just read about it). I'm just suggesting LRTimelapse works well on a budget for someone who can't afford the $1700 price tag of the Boris software.

« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 13:53 »
0
I'm sure Boris is much better (I've never tried it, just read about it). I'm just suggesting LRTimelapse works well on a budget for someone who can't afford the $1700 price tag of the Boris software.

$1,700???

It's $299 (Image Restoration Unit, one of the Continuum Units). It's free if you are a student.

Still a bit pricey, but not outrageous. The rest of the Continuum plugs aren't that useful in my opinion anyway...

Just download the free trial and try it out.

---

It works well on drone footage too (Phantoms/Mavics), that often suffers from compression flicker due to the low bitrate and suboptimal codec.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 14:00 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 19:53 »
+1
I'm sure Boris is much better (I've never tried it, just read about it). I'm just suggesting LRTimelapse works well on a budget for someone who can't afford the $1700 price tag of the Boris software.

$1,700???

It's $299 (Image Restoration Unit, one of the Continuum Units). It's free if you are a student.

Still a bit pricey, but not outrageous. The rest of the Continuum plugs aren't that useful in my opinion anyway...

Just download the free trial and try it out.

---

It works well on drone footage too (Phantoms/Mavics), that often suffers from compression flicker due to the low bitrate and suboptimal codec.

Woah! I must have been on the  wrong page, I'll check it out again. Thanks for the heads up!

« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2018, 05:55 »
0
I'm sure Boris is much better (I've never tried it, just read about it). I'm just suggesting LRTimelapse works well on a budget for someone who can't afford the $1700 price tag of the Boris software.

$1,700???

It's $299 (Image Restoration Unit, one of the Continuum Units). It's free if you are a student.

Still a bit pricey, but not outrageous. The rest of the Continuum plugs aren't that useful in my opinion anyway...

Just download the free trial and try it out.

---

It works well on drone footage too (Phantoms/Mavics), that often suffers from compression flicker due to the low bitrate and suboptimal codec.

Woah! I must have been on the  wrong page, I'll check it out again. Thanks for the heads up!
If you try Boris software let us know your impressions

« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 06:04 »
0
If you try Boris software let us know your impressions

The trial is absolutely free so why not try it yourself? They only put a watermark on the clip, but it works the same as the full version.

« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2018, 04:05 »
0
If you try Boris software let us know your impressions

The trial is absolutely free so why not try it yourself? They only put a watermark on the clip, but it works the same as the full version.
Thank you,
yes, I am interested.
the thing is that at the momentI use a Panasonic GH4 (good for video, bad for photo) with a Metabone adapter and good Nikkor lenses.
So I don;t get any flicker.
But I will get a Nikon D850, as I am doing mostly timelapses at the moment, and then I expect to get flicker

« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2018, 11:45 »
0
LRTimelapse has wonderful deflicker. I've never had a clip I couldn't fix. I now shoot the majority of my time lapses in A-priority making high dynamic range transitions super easy to deal with. Also a lot cheaper that Boris  :P

It's not wonderful compared to Boris. And it's incredibly slow with no customization of the parameters used to analyze... It's nice to fix some of the flicker at RAW level though. You might sometimes get the best results by first using LRTimelapse and then Boris, but normally a giant waste of time.

I avoid LRTimelapse altogether since I find it clumsy, slow, and sometimes it even introduces flicker. Big changes in Lightroom (like clarity, dehaze, raise shadows etc.) are not optimal for timelapses as each image is not processed exactly the same.

This can result in flicker that cannot be fixed. Furthermore, LRTimelapse forces you to use Adobe2012, which introduces flicker, instead of Adobe2010.

My personal workflow is to make minor tweaks at RAW level, export a high quality video file and do all color grading and creative tweaks in After Effects (or any other program like DaVinci that is made to work with video).
Interesting,
but which version of LRTimelapse have you tried?
I am testing the new version 5. Still early times, but so far it seems very good to me (Although I agree that is slooowwwww).
At the moment I get much better results with LRT5 than my previous workflow, which was similar to yours: minimal changes in LR and then color grading in AE on the files imported as a RAW sequence

« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2018, 12:15 »
0
Sure, you can get beautiful results with LRTimelapse, and in theory, retain more of the original quality since you're editing/grading at RAW level. But in practice, it's not that convenient and too slow for me. Not to mention the inconvenience of going back to change something...

I like to make a high quality movie file that is more like what comes out of a professional film camera, and grade it like you grade film. That way I can color grade and change colors very quickly a year later, or make different versions for different situations.

It would be way too time consuming to have to go back and do it at the RAW image level every time.

« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2018, 16:19 »
+1
Sure, you can get beautiful results with LRTimelapse, and in theory, retain more of the original quality since you're editing/grading at RAW level. But in practice, it's not that convenient and too slow for me. Not to mention the inconvenience of going back to change something...

I like to make a high quality movie file that is more like what comes out of a professional film camera, and grade it like you grade film. That way I can color grade and change colors very quickly a year later, or make different versions for different situations.

It would be way too time consuming to have to go back and do it at the RAW image level every time.

Truth.  I find myself going to Final Cut pro later to do any color grading I can get away with because it is a pain to reconnect LR and LRT and go through that entire process.  Most of the changes I make are minimal enough that FCPX does fine.  But your point about the workflow is spot on.  I still like LRT especially when I drop in XMP files from the VIEW or Ramper on day to night holy grail. 

Brighonti, I use aperture priority in sunsets with a simple method to capture good daylight and then get a little longer shooting into the night that you cannot get with manual exposure.  Set camera to 800 ISO (can get tricky if daytime is too bright, sometimes 400 does very well when you have city lights...depends on what you are shooting really), 2.8 aperture with camera on aperture priority. You will be surprised at how smooth these are in post. I also sometimes use aperture priority when the light changes a lot, like with variable clouds.  But to your point I do shoot manual in 75% of the cases.  With holy grail I shoot exclusively manual. Also, in LRT you cannot use the holy grail tools with aperture files.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 16:21 by Mantis »

« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2018, 17:22 »
0
Another important thing to consider is that Lightroom is not made with video in mind. This means that it doesn't process each image in the same way, despite identical settings. Big changes can (and will) result in strange differences and flicker between images in an image sequence.

Try maxing out a setting (clarity for example) and see what happens. It won't change in the exact same way on every picture, unless you use Adobe2010, which doesn't work with LRTimelapse anyway.

« Reply #24 on: March 18, 2018, 07:01 »
0
Sure, you can get beautiful results with LRTimelapse, and in theory, retain more of the original quality since you're editing/grading at RAW level. But in practice, it's not that convenient and too slow for me. Not to mention the inconvenience of going back to change something...

I like to make a high quality movie file that is more like what comes out of a professional film camera, and grade it like you grade film. That way I can color grade and change colors very quickly a year later, or make different versions for different situations.

It would be way too time consuming to have to go back and do it at the RAW image level every time.
Yes, I agree that the workflow is very loong.
I am still in the testing period with LRT 5, to soon to come to conclusions (especially regarding the deflickering).
I must admit that for timelapses I generally prefer the results that I obtain color grading in LR, rather than in AE; maybe because I don't know AE as well as LR and PS

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2018, 08:37 »
0
The reasoning for using Aperture Priority is the depth of field doesn't change over time, when the light source changes. Shooting manual, you would still need to keep the Aperture the same and change either ISO or shutter speed. In a situation where the light is fairly consistent, that's not necessary, but for a Sunrise/Sunset or changing light conditions, you don't want the background or foreground to be changing, in and out of focus.

I like the ND idea and I'll try that. Slower shutter should make the motion blur more interesting. Frame blending also would help.

But after all, it depends one what the subject is, close or wide, lighting control.

« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2018, 09:06 »
0
The reasoning for using Aperture Priority is the depth of field doesn't change over time, when the light source changes. Shooting manual, you would still need to keep the Aperture the same and change either ISO or shutter speed. In a situation where the light is fairly consistent, that's not necessary, but for a Sunrise/Sunset or changing light conditions, you don't want the background or foreground to be changing, in and out of focus.

I like the ND idea and I'll try that. Slower shutter should make the motion blur more interesting. Frame blending also would help.

But after all, it depends one what the subject is, close or wide, lighting control.


Most time lapses are shot on manual with a fixed aperture, so the DOF also does not change over time. If you are needing to ramp then yes you need either a ramping unit that changes exposure over time, mostly ISO and shutter speed or to do it yourself.  If you're going to ramp yourself you can use DQSLR Dashboard. There are automated features but you still need to monitor it and make some tweaks here and there.  Or if you have the patience you can do it all yourself. But I use aperture priority for exposure, not for changing DOF.  All my stuff is set to manual (focus, aperture, sometimes ISO). Nothing changes over time except for what I tell the camera to change.

« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2018, 10:40 »
0
I agree with Increasingdifficulty: minor tweaks while importing Raw files and all the other image work in After Effects.
Flicker issues should be resolved before you start shooting, not in post production.

ND filters are a must in day time timelapsing for getting rid of birds in the sky, moving foliage by wind, flickering of water in ponds and rivers.
Normal focal length lenses get ND filter (400x) in front of the lens, (super) wide angle lenses behind the lens as a cut out Wratten ND filter (some lenses are designed for this).

I have done some one week long timelapses though with automatic exposure on Nikon D300 camera's and there wasn't any flickering in the JPEGs footage, going from night to day twice a day. But there was a lot of activity in this footage: downtown city with human activity. Static nature twilight footage is more difficult.

« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2018, 14:07 »
0
I agree with Increasingdifficulty: minor tweaks while importing Raw files and all the other image work in After Effects.
Flicker issues should be resolved before you start shooting, not in post production.

ND filters are a must in day time timelapsing for getting rid of birds in the sky, moving foliage by wind, flickering of water in ponds and rivers.
Normal focal length lenses get ND filter (400x) in front of the lens, (super) wide angle lenses behind the lens as a cut out Wratten ND filter (some lenses are designed for this).

I have done some one week long timelapses though with automatic exposure on Nikon D300 camera's and there wasn't any flickering in the JPEGs footage, going from night to day twice a day. But there was a lot of activity in this footage: downtown city with human activity. Static nature twilight footage is more difficult.
Regarding flicker, I used to have no problems at all, as I was shooting with a Panny GH4 and Nikkor lenses with a Metabone adapter.
On the other hand the camera (great for video), was very basic in timelapses, with low resolution and very, very poor ISO performance.
Now I am shooting 8K timelapses with the Nikon d850 and the timelapse quality is in a parallel universe. I have practically 8-9 stops of ISO available, incredible capacity of recovering very underexposed images, and zillions of pixels.
The downside is that now I get some flicker. At the moment I am heavily testing LRTimelapse 5 and the new multipasses deflicker so far seems to work very well

« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 16:20 »
0
Yeah, my Nikon D7000 gives me flickering (underexposed) timelapses sometimes too while I have everything on manual.
I suspect it might happen at the point where the analogue sensor signal is translated to a digital signal. Looks like the separate RGB signals get clipped unequally to black each time the camera records a RAW frame.
D850 must be heaven to shoot with though and 8K is a good investment for future timelapse sales!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 21:20 by seamless »

« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2018, 16:53 »
0
I have practically 8-9 stops of ISO available, incredible capacity of recovering very underexposed images, and zillions of pixels.

That seems really nice.  ;D But it must take weeks to process a timelapse with 45.7mp RAW images, especially if you need to deflicker in LRTimelapse? Unless you have an extremely fast setup. And only 2-5 timelapses per memory card?

I've used the GH4 a lot too, and a Canon 5D mk III, and it's true that the difference in quality when you do full-frame timelapses is enormous! But the GH4 still is a beast when it comes to 4k video. Too bad Canon hasn't caught up there yet, after quite a few years...
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 16:57 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2018, 21:29 »
0
My 5K night sky timelapses already take a lot of disk space.
Raw --> 16bit TIFF sequence --> denoise (Noise Ninja) --> new TIFF sequence --> After Effects --> several ProRes444 sequences.

Really hard to make it worthwhile from a budget point of view. 8K camera's and 4K TV's are way too cheap these days ...

« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2018, 01:00 »
0
I go directly from RAW to ProRes 4444 or 422 (HQ), and then color grade and denoise (Neat Video) in After Effects if I need to.

I did work with image sequences before but it's just way too time consuming and, as you say, takes up so much space.  :D

---

I'm still looking for the perfect allround beast of a camera. I want 4k 60p, 20+ mp, flip-out screen and ideally a bigger sensor than the GH5. The Canon 1DX mk II comes close, but i guess Sony might be the most likely candidate if they can do 4k 60p and create an A7s with more resolution. I would gladly sacrifice some ISO performance if they could raise the 12mp (which is not enough for timelapse) to 20. Also looking at Nikon, but yet to see 4k 60p, which in my opinion would be extremely valuable, especially now that the GH5 exists.

Canon could have made the perfect beast with the 6D mk II, but the people in charge chose not to put in 4k. Quite unbelievable!  :o No technical difficulties, just someone making a decision... A very bad decision.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 01:09 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2018, 10:50 »
0
Sure, you can get beautiful results with LRTimelapse, and in theory, retain more of the original quality since you're editing/grading at RAW level. But in practice, it's not that convenient and too slow for me. Not to mention the inconvenience of going back to change something...

I like to make a high quality movie file that is more like what comes out of a professional film camera, and grade it like you grade film. That way I can color grade and change colors very quickly a year later, or make different versions for different situations.

It would be way too time consuming to have to go back and do it at the RAW image level every time.

Truth.  I find myself going to Final Cut pro later to do any color grading I can get away with because it is a pain to reconnect LR and LRT and go through that entire process.  Most of the changes I make are minimal enough that FCPX does fine.  But your point about the workflow is spot on.  I still like LRT especially when I drop in XMP files from the VIEW or Ramper on day to night holy grail. 

Brighonti, I use aperture priority in sunsets with a simple method to capture good daylight and then get a little longer shooting into the night that you cannot get with manual exposure.  Set camera to 800 ISO (can get tricky if daytime is too bright, sometimes 400 does very well when you have city lights...depends on what you are shooting really), 2.8 aperture with camera on aperture priority. You will be surprised at how smooth these are in post. I also sometimes use aperture priority when the light changes a lot, like with variable clouds.  But to your point I do shoot manual in 75% of the cases.  With holy grail I shoot exclusively manual. Also, in LRT you cannot use the holy grail tools with aperture files.
Yes, there are deveral ways to skin a cat. I suppose it also depends on the camera used.
For a bit more than a year I had used the Panny GH4 and there was no way of using any ISO other than the native 200. So I was sometime ramping the speed, while keeping everything else the same. But this method has serious downsides with many subjects, because motion blur increases.
Now with the Nikon D850 I can certainly ramp the ISO and this is probably going to be my preferred way

« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2018, 11:39 »
0
Now with the Nikon D850 I can certainly ramp the ISO and this is probably going to be my preferred way

Interesting, but doesn't ISO ramping cause "jumps" rather than flicker, since the colors change when you change ISO (gradually desaturates etc.)? I think that increasing shutter speeds (and increasing motion blur) can be a rather nice effect, but I guess it's not always ideal.

No way will be 100% perfect of course (except maybe ND filters) but it's nice to have options.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 12:07 by increasingdifficulty »

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2018, 11:58 »
0
Yes, I should have mentioned, most of the time I'm shooting unattended or not changing settings when there's a shot every 5 seconds while I sip a beer and have a sandwich. Or at the least while I'm shooting something else, off on a walk. Sunsets/Sunrise/lighting that changes needs to be watched and adjusted carefully, very difficult, I agree.

Night timelapse is 100% manual.

I really don't think there are wrong answers if someone gets the results they want.

« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2018, 19:47 »
0
Now with the Nikon D850 I can certainly ramp the ISO and this is probably going to be my preferred way

Interesting, but doesn't ISO ramping cause "jumps" rather than flicker, since the colors change when you change ISO (gradually desaturates etc.)? I think that increasing shutter speeds (and increasing motion blur) can be a rather nice effect, but I guess it's not always ideal.

No way will be 100% perfect of course (except maybe ND filters) but it's nice to have options.

Yes. You can really never get a smooth ramp using iso ramping, but with some devices like the VIEW or RAMPER PRO they create smoothing XMP files that you are supposed to dump into the directory with your raw files.  You do get much smoother output and that is further improved by the deflicker feature in LRT. Like Uncle Pete says, it is a lot more work to monitor and adjust when you are doing dramatic light changing scenes (day to night) as I'm sure you already know. But yes, you do get obvious jumps and when that is combined with flicker from the aperture if you are not using a manual lens you have to be careful in post. 

« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2018, 03:03 »
0
Yes. You can really never get a smooth ramp using iso ramping, but with some devices like the VIEW or RAMPER PRO they create smoothing XMP files that you are supposed to dump into the directory with your raw files.

Sorry, let me clarify. I didn't mean the exposure jumps, I use Magic Lantern myself with interpolated XMP sidecar files, but only usually ramp ISO from about 100-800 or so if I have to (on a full-frame camera).

What I meant was when you have to use BIG changes in ISO, say from 100 to 12,800 (or 25,600), since you don't change the shutter speed, you would get a very obvious change in the saturation, colors, and overall image quality (even if the noise stays low) at the same exposure/brightness level, even on a high-end full-frame sensor. Maybe this change is not very big in the D850?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 06:36 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2018, 05:28 »
0
Yes. You can really never get a smooth ramp using iso ramping, but with some devices like the VIEW or RAMPER PRO they create smoothing XMP files that you are supposed to dump into the directory with your raw files.

Sorry, let me clarify. I didn't mean the exposure jumps, I use Magic Lantern myself with interpolated XMP sidercar files, but only usually ramp ISO from about 100-800 or so if I have to (on a full-frame camera).

What I meant was when you have to use BIG changes in ISO, say from 100 to 12,800 (or 25,600), since you don't change the shutter speed, you would get a very obvious change in the saturation, colors, and overall image quality (even if the noise stays low) at the same exposure/brightness level, even on a high-end full-frame sensor. Maybe this change is not very big in the D850?
Well, such a big change in ISO would give some artifacts, even on the D850.
In my short experience with the D850, I have so far the impression that if I start from ISO 32 and ramp up to 800 I don't see any changes in image quality, even pixel peeping. Probably I could push it to 1600, but don't need it.
This is 5 stops and for me even in transition to night they are more than enough. Another thing to keep in mind with the D850 is the incredible ability to recover shadows without introducing noise, so if I end up the timelapse a bit underexposed I still have huge latitude in post

« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2018, 08:16 »
0
Well, such a big change in ISO would give some artifacts, even on the D850.
In my short experience with the D850, I have so far the impression that if I start from ISO 32 and ramp up to 800 I don't see any changes in image quality, even pixel peeping. Probably I could push it to 1600, but don't need it.
This is 5 stops and for me even in transition to night they are more than enough. Another thing to keep in mind with the D850 is the incredible ability to recover shadows without introducing noise, so if I end up the timelapse a bit underexposed I still have huge latitude in post

I see, I suppose it's enough for many cases unless you start with the sun in the frame. I have done a few cityscapes where you first see the sun go down and then it goes to night. That requires BIG changes in exposure.

Anyway, when you recover the shadows (by a lot) on the D850, do you notice any magenta/green flicker? I have seen this with most cameras I've tried. You can't see it unless you bring up the shadows, and of course only a real issue in time lapses, not single images.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 11:11 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2018, 06:19 »
+1
Well, such a big change in ISO would give some artifacts, even on the D850.
In my short experience with the D850, I have so far the impression that if I start from ISO 32 and ramp up to 800 I don't see any changes in image quality, even pixel peeping. Probably I could push it to 1600, but don't need it.
This is 5 stops and for me even in transition to night they are more than enough. Another thing to keep in mind with the D850 is the incredible ability to recover shadows without introducing noise, so if I end up the timelapse a bit underexposed I still have huge latitude in post

I see, I suppose it's enough for many cases unless you start with the sun in the frame. I have done a few cityscapes where you first see the sun go down and then it goes to night. That requires BIG changes in exposure.

Anyway, when you recover the shadows (by a lot) on the D850, do you notice any magenta/green flicker? I have seen this with most cameras I've tried. You can't see it unless you bring up the shadows, and of course only a real issue in time lapses, not single images.
Yes, the sun on the frame requires a wider adjustment.
I am still at an early stage in my tests, but I will keep you posted and will soon publish a video with some 8k timelapses using LRTimelapse (weather allowing...).
So far I haven't notice any magenta green flicker, only a slight tendency towards a magenta cast in the shadow, but it is easily fixed with the Camera Calibration panel

« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2018, 04:37 »
0
So far I haven't notice any magenta green flicker, only a slight tendency towards a magenta cast in the shadow, but it is easily fixed with the Camera Calibration panel

If you have a tool called exiftool (great tool to check or change any metadata that you can't see in Lightroom, including video metadata), you can check the black levels of the RAW images per channel. For example, on the GH4 they are supposed to be 128, but in a time lapse, some of the images would have one channel at 127, which would result in a slight color shift in the shadows.

On the Canon 5D mk III, they should be 2048, but they differ on that camera as well (some go to 2047), resulting in small color shifts in the shadows, noticeable if you bring up the shadows a lot in a time lapse. Luckily, you can batch change the black level values with exiftool so that they are all the same, which is what I do as part of my workflow on all my time lapses now, even if I don't need to bring up the shadows.

I don't know what they are supposed to be on the D850, but if you check a bunch of them, you should be able to see if they stay the same or not.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 04:46 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2018, 04:55 »
0
OK, I found what the black levels are supposed to be on the D850: 400 on each channel.

I only found a few test RAW files, and they were all at 400, but not enough of a sample to really tell if they always are.

The thing is that it's not an easy fix in the camera calibration panel, since the changes are completely random and you have to go through the images one by one... Takes a lot of time in a big time lapse.

Anyway, hopefully this isn't the case with the D850. Seems like it produces incredible RAW files.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 05:03 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2018, 05:00 »
0
OK, I found what the black levels are supposed to be on the D850: 400 on each channel.

I only found a few test RAW files, and they were all at 400, but not enough of a sample to really tell if they always are.

The thing is that it's not an easy fix in the camera calibration panel, since the changes are completely random and you have to go through the images one by one... Takes a lot of time in a big time lapse.

Anyway, hopefully this isn't the case with the D850. Seems like it produces incredible RAW files.
Interesting, I will keep an eye out for the black levels, but so far the tests are going very well and the dark area look stable.
The ability of recovering the shadows is quite amazing in the D850 and I am also quite impressed by the new version of LRTimelapse

« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2018, 10:16 »
0
By the way, how do you go about previewing all those huge files from the camera? Load them all into Lightroom and wait for the previews? Shoot RAW + jpg?

If you haven't tried it already, I can really recommend a small little tool called ERawP, which extracts all embedded jpg preview files that hide inside every RAW file.

I don't shoot RAW + jpg, I just drop the RAW files into ErawP, and boom, within a few seconds it extracts all the embedded jpg previews so I can quickly look through all the images without having to open any applications at all.

It has probably saved me a couple of work weeks.  :)

« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2018, 18:25 »
+1
This is all very interesting information "increasingdifficulty"! Thank you!
For me most of my time goes into rotoscoping out airplane trails, satellites and meteors from night timelapses, so worrying about varying black levels is the last thing I'm waiting for.

But it happens with newer models camera's, might perhaps have to do something with the extended ISO sensivity.

By the way, since my first Nikon D1H I know that I should only use multiple ISO sensitivities. Like 200 - 400 - 800 - 1600 etc.

For inbetween sensitivities 250, 320, 500, 640 etc. a second amplifier is used that introduces extra noise, meaning that 500 or 640 ISO has more noise than 800 ISO.

Don't know if this also applies to latest generations of camera's but it is a rule of thumb I still use.


« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2018, 00:38 »
0
This is all very interesting information "increasingdifficulty"! Thank you!
For me most of my time goes into rotoscoping out airplane trails, satellites and meteors from night timelapses, so worrying about varying black levels is the last thing I'm waiting for.

That's a lot of work.  ;)

I keep most of my star time lapses as they are for now, including satellites. The thing that bothers me the most is blurring faces in busy time lapses (even with long exposures, because at tourist destinations, people stand very still a lot apparently)... Applying a bottom "blur fog" works most of the time, but it's the lazy way and eats up much of the scene...

But it happens with newer models camera's, might perhaps have to do something with the extended ISO sensivity.

By the way, since my first Nikon D1H I know that I should only use multiple ISO sensitivities. Like 200 - 400 - 800 - 1600 etc.

For inbetween sensitivities 250, 320, 500, 640 etc. a second amplifier is used that introduces extra noise, meaning that 500 or 640 ISO has more noise than 800 ISO.

Don't know if this also applies to latest generations of camera's but it is a rule of thumb I still use.

Good points about the noise, but from what I've seen, ISO is not related to the black level issue. Even at 100 or 200 it happens.

« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2018, 05:05 »
0
By the way, how do you go about previewing all those huge files from the camera? Load them all into Lightroom and wait for the previews? Shoot RAW + jpg?

If you haven't tried it already, I can really recommend a small little tool called ERawP, which extracts all embedded jpg preview files that hide inside every RAW file.

I don't shoot RAW + jpg, I just drop the RAW files into ErawP, and boom, within a few seconds it extracts all the embedded jpg previews so I can quickly look through all the images without having to open any applications at all.

It has probably saved me a couple of work weeks.  :)
To preview the 8k file I am using more end more the preview in LRTimelpse, very fast.
The main thing I need to check is if I need stabiliser, in which case I have to go through AE.
If I can avoid going to AE, I do everything in LRT (including encoding) and the process is a breeze, very fast.
If I need to go to AE, the computer get grilled , it takes forever and often the PC crashes

« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2018, 08:11 »
0
By the way, how do you go about previewing all those huge files from the camera? Load them all into Lightroom and wait for the previews? Shoot RAW + jpg?

If you haven't tried it already, I can really recommend a small little tool called ERawP, which extracts all embedded jpg preview files that hide inside every RAW file.

I don't shoot RAW + jpg, I just drop the RAW files into ErawP, and boom, within a few seconds it extracts all the embedded jpg previews so I can quickly look through all the images without having to open any applications at all.

It has probably saved me a couple of work weeks.  :)
To preview the 8k file I am using more end more the preview in LRTimelpse, very fast.
The main thing I need to check is if I need stabiliser, in which case I have to go through AE.
If I can avoid going to AE, I do everything in LRT (including encoding) and the process is a breeze, very fast.
If I need to go to AE, the computer get grilled , it takes forever and often the PC crashes

Fast for the original. Once you use Visual Workflow then not so fast if you want to see anything corrected from Lightroom.  I think Gunther has a huge opportunity to do a better job in that area.  You have to wait for all those DNG previews in order to use Deficker.  That's not productive. But you are correct for a quick raw preview. 

« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2018, 08:48 »
0
By the way, how do you go about previewing all those huge files from the camera? Load them all into Lightroom and wait for the previews? Shoot RAW + jpg?

If you haven't tried it already, I can really recommend a small little tool called ERawP, which extracts all embedded jpg preview files that hide inside every RAW file.

I don't shoot RAW + jpg, I just drop the RAW files into ErawP, and boom, within a few seconds it extracts all the embedded jpg previews so I can quickly look through all the images without having to open any applications at all.

It has probably saved me a couple of work weeks.  :)
To preview the 8k file I am using more end more the preview in LRTimelpse, very fast.
The main thing I need to check is if I need stabiliser, in which case I have to go through AE.
If I can avoid going to AE, I do everything in LRT (including encoding) and the process is a breeze, very fast.
If I need to go to AE, the computer get grilled , it takes forever and often the PC crashes

Fast for the original. Once you use Visual Workflow then not so fast if you want to see anything corrected from Lightroom.  I think Gunther has a huge opportunity to do a better job in that area.  You have to wait for all those DNG previews in order to use Deficker.  That's not productive. But you are correct for a quick raw preview.
Hi Mantis,
are you talking about the new version 5?
I consider the rendered preview in LRT5 for 8k files really fast compared to After Effects, where they are incredibly slow to load and can even crash my computer

« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2018, 19:47 »
0
By the way, how do you go about previewing all those huge files from the camera? Load them all into Lightroom and wait for the previews? Shoot RAW + jpg?

If you haven't tried it already, I can really recommend a small little tool called ERawP, which extracts all embedded jpg preview files that hide inside every RAW file.

I don't shoot RAW + jpg, I just drop the RAW files into ErawP, and boom, within a few seconds it extracts all the embedded jpg previews so I can quickly look through all the images without having to open any applications at all.

It has probably saved me a couple of work weeks.  :)
To preview the 8k file I am using more end more the preview in LRTimelpse, very fast.
The main thing I need to check is if I need stabiliser, in which case I have to go through AE.
If I can avoid going to AE, I do everything in LRT (including encoding) and the process is a breeze, very fast.
If I need to go to AE, the computer get grilled , it takes forever and often the PC crashes

Fast for the original. Once you use Visual Workflow then not so fast if you want to see anything corrected from Lightroom.  I think Gunther has a huge opportunity to do a better job in that area.  You have to wait for all those DNG previews in order to use Deficker.  That's not productive. But you are correct for a quick raw preview.
Hi Mantis,
are you talking about the new version 5?
I consider the rendered preview in LRT5 for 8k files really fast compared to After Effects, where they are incredibly slow to load and can even crash my computer

If I have, say a 900 image TL in RAW, then drag it to LR, make my adjustments, save metadata to file, then reload in LRT, I have to go through visual previews before I can deflicker. That takes about 45 minutes to get through 900 images...time wasted if I just sat there. Haven't used AE, though so I only have my beer count as a comparison:)

« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2018, 05:48 »
0
By the way, how do you go about previewing all those huge files from the camera? Load them all into Lightroom and wait for the previews? Shoot RAW + jpg?

If you haven't tried it already, I can really recommend a small little tool called ERawP, which extracts all embedded jpg preview files that hide inside every RAW file.

I don't shoot RAW + jpg, I just drop the RAW files into ErawP, and boom, within a few seconds it extracts all the embedded jpg previews so I can quickly look through all the images without having to open any applications at all.

It has probably saved me a couple of work weeks.  :)
To preview the 8k file I am using more end more the preview in LRTimelpse, very fast.
The main thing I need to check is if I need stabiliser, in which case I have to go through AE.
If I can avoid going to AE, I do everything in LRT (including encoding) and the process is a breeze, very fast.
If I need to go to AE, the computer get grilled , it takes forever and often the PC crashes

Fast for the original. Once you use Visual Workflow then not so fast if you want to see anything corrected from Lightroom.  I think Gunther has a huge opportunity to do a better job in that area.  You have to wait for all those DNG previews in order to use Deficker.  That's not productive. But you are correct for a quick raw preview.
Hi Mantis,
are you talking about the new version 5?
I consider the rendered preview in LRT5 for 8k files really fast compared to After Effects, where they are incredibly slow to load and can even crash my computer

If I have, say a 900 image TL in RAW, then drag it to LR, make my adjustments, save metadata to file, then reload in LRT, I have to go through visual previews before I can deflicker. That takes about 45 minutes to get through 900 images...time wasted if I just sat there. Haven't used AE, though so I only have my beer count as a comparison:)
These days I try to go much more for quality rather than quantity. I am quite happy to produce 25 to 35 timelapses per month, but I try to choose the subjects very carefully. Of course when I do drone footage I can produce more.
My timelapses are generally 300 frames and when using only LR and LRTimelapse 5 (with 8k files from the D850), the average time for post processing is about 30 minutes from start to finish, including encoding. I consider it perfectly acceptable. What is more the resources of my computer are not fully occupied, so I can do other work in the meantime.
When I have to use After Effect for stabilising or other reasons, the post processing for a single timelapse can be 2 or 3 hours and I have to close all other applications and cannot do any other work

« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2018, 14:40 »
0
the average time for post processing is about 30 minutes from start to finish, including encoding. I consider it perfectly acceptable.

I don't think I've ever finished a clip that fast.  :D Barely a regular clip.

I've been doing more and more work in post, making composites and tweaks that real life didn't offer. Not to mention there's not much worth time lapsing where I live when the environment isn't lush and green (soon we're back in beauty mode). Living in London would of course offer much more year round.

But for composites and heavy editing I need After Effects. Rendering is slow, but to me it's definitely worth it. Not to mention it's a lot of fun! What REALLY takes time is rendering something in Cinema 4D and bringing it into After Effects... That can be 12-20 hours for a few seconds...

Whatever works for each of us is good I suppose!

« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2018, 15:56 »
+1
Same goes for me, post processing timelapse clips is rather a process of days and sometimes even weeks per shot.
Mainly nature: tidal movements, starscapes, aeolian sand movements on the beach etcetera.

« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2018, 04:13 »
0
the average time for post processing is about 30 minutes from start to finish, including encoding. I consider it perfectly acceptable.

I don't think I've ever finished a clip that fast.  :D Barely a regular clip.

I've been doing more and more work in post, making composites and tweaks that real life didn't offer. Not to mention there's not much worth time lapsing where I live when the environment isn't lush and green (soon we're back in beauty mode). Living in London would of course offer much more year round.

But for composites and heavy editing I need After Effects. Rendering is slow, but to me it's definitely worth it. Not to mention it's a lot of fun! What REALLY takes time is rendering something in Cinema 4D and bringing it into After Effects... That can be 12-20 hours for a few seconds...

Whatever works for each of us is good I suppose!
Sure, I agree: it depends where you live.
Big cities offer good opportunities for urban timelapses. If living in more remote areas, then other sort of images are more interesting, maybe nature shots with drones.
I lived for about two years in Brighton and I was doing a lot of drone shots in the South coast, while now in London drones are very hard to use
Where about do you live?

« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2018, 03:16 »
0
I've been using LRT for a while, its pretty cool how well it works.

After effects almost always throws up an error so have almost never used it. Love

Love how well you've been discussing this

« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2018, 09:21 »
0
I've been using LRT for a while, its pretty cool how well it works.

After effects almost always throws up an error so have almost never used it. Love

Love how well you've been discussing this
Thank you!


 

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