Author Topic: StockXpert Images on Photos.com (Read 110410 times)

leaf · « **Reply #375 on:** August 08, 2008, 11:51 »

Do you really think that StockXpert would do something as sly as this?

It is one thing to roll out changes and not tell users about it, and it is another to let them THINK they are being offered one thing and then purposely behind their backs change the rules and force them into the thing that they were promised they weren't part of. I think a stock site would be committing suicide if they really tried something like that.

Even though the photos.com thing isn't popular with many, StockXpert has been very open with their communication and working with it's members to try and find a happy middle ground. Something that shows to me that they are concerned about what we think. Very few agencies work as hard at and are as open about communication as stockxpert is.... despite their controversial new strategies.

madelaide · « **Reply #376 on:** August 08, 2008, 21:19 »

Quote from: HermanM on August 08, 2008, 10:24

And if you take the time to read the fine print of their EULA you will find loopholes they can use to circumvent the opt out thing...

I would also appreciate more info about this, with clear examples. I read the original EULA just enough to see the EL problem, and my concern was to have a choice to opt-out from this. Also English is not my first language, so legal text is often uncomprehensible to me anyway.

Unlike other sites, StockXpert has been open to discussions (even in their own forum they let people say what they like freely) and in the end they heard us. Maybe not as some people wanted, but their solution was quite satisfactory to me.

I wished FT was half as concerned to members' opinions as StockXpert was. They only raised the subs earnings slightly, and did not even consider the choice of opting out of subs as StockXpert and IS let us.

If StockXpert/JI is however writing terms that will in the end work against us, I would really want to know.

Regards,
Adelaide

Phil · « **Reply #377 on:** August 08, 2008, 22:39 »

ok just to clarify...

I can sell ppd on StockXpert

tick the box and I can sell EL's on StockXpert

tick the box and I get 50% of any partner sales (but there arent any partners so its pointless)

tick the box and I can sell subscription on StockXpert but I also automatically sell on
photos.com where the basic licence is an EL but there is a possibility of a large or xxl sale and
jupiter unlimited which is also an el sale (and is a collection that high res subscription is $10000 year)

and regardless of which of the 3 I get the sale on I get $0.30

is this right??
(I still feel like I am being done, anyone know what non StockXpert contributors receive for JI unlimited sale?)

Phil

leaf · « **Reply #378 on:** August 09, 2008, 04:53 »

yeah, that looks right clearviewstock

ironarrow · « **Reply #379 on:** August 09, 2008, 07:27 »

If you look at the horrible quality of work on photos.com you will understand why they need us..

Just opt-out for god's sake.. (and for your own sake)

madelaide · « **Reply #380 on:** August 09, 2008, 12:16 »

Quote from: clearviewstock on August 08, 2008, 22:39

tick the box and I can sell subscription on StockXpert but I also automatically sell on
photos.com where the basic licence is an EL but there is a possibility of a large or xxl sale and
jupiter unlimited which is also an el sale (and is a collection that high res subscription is $10000 year)

and regardless of which of the 3 I get the sale on I get $0.30

I thought if you sold XL or XXL in Photos.com you would get a share of the high value sale, not just 30c - these would be for the smaller sizes in subs. If I had understood it wrong, then the Photos.com deal was even worse...

Regards,
Adelaide

photoshow · « **Reply #381 on:** August 09, 2008, 19:33 »

Yea you get a piece of the single image sales of XL and XXl but at what cost.

I don't know the exact math but for the sake of argument lets say your cut of an XL download is $100 which sounds like a nice bump until you offset it by knowing that in the same time frame in which you received the single $100 download you also sold who knows how many 30 cent downloads. 30 cent downloads that carry the same terms of use as a standard EL anywhere else. So sy you sell on PPD file and 30 sub files for a total revenue of $130.00 but now lets extrpolate that 4 of those 30 cent sub downloads get used for print for resale items. With an EL at Shutterstock being worth $28 I have just lost $112.00 in EL Revenue to gain $100 in PPD revenue.

madelaide · « **Reply #382 on:** August 09, 2008, 20:31 »

Bobby,

I certainly don't think it is a good deal, and never did from the start (license terms were the only thing I read of the EULA). Phil however had a different interpretation of the XL/XXL sales, and I wanted to clarify that.

I'm sure however that there are people happy with the new deal, even if all they get are subs sales in the end, as long as they are plenty. I don't totally criticize them, as so many others applaud SS for that. Yes, there is a huge difference for the EL, but frankly speaking I don't think license terms are a strong enough guarantee that images will not be used outside their license terms. And if you are lucky to catch one image being misused, unless you are exclusive with one site, there is nothing really you can do, especially if the infractor is in another country.

But I agree that Photos.com terms are a killer for the microstock ELs and people should take that into consideration. Unfortunately many will prefer to make that extra money.

Regards,
Adelaide

Phil · « **Reply #383 on:** August 09, 2008, 22:47 »

Hi again,

the more I think about this the more I get the feeling that this is bad for everyone and continuation of the race to the bottom and very much an idea for short term gain but long term loss.

Photos.com rather than undercutting on price is offering more for the same money (I went back through and worked I am averaging 2-3 els a month across all sites.) so for people inclined to buy an El, this becomes a very nice deal. So nice I think it will very severly affect el sales elsewhere. considering how other sites have continued to undercut sub pricing, I think before very long we will see the other sites offering el licences on normal sub sales and hence the end of el sales.

to offset that we have the possibility of a large / xxl size sale. but photos.com is positioned as bargain basement, I can't see too many of these happening. (you dont go to the discount store to buy premium brand name products). I would think people confronted with the price of XXL are going to say I'll go get it from StockXpert or whereever for a twentieth of the price.

and barely anyone is mentioning JI unlimited (so I must be missing something!). It has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum that actual commission from SS is less than IS's 20%. But SS pay about 20% more than the $0.30 offered and costs $2500 per year. Pricing for JI unlim is $699 for web size up to $10000 per year for high res. assuming the SS is correct (and there is no way I can validate it) then the commission rate for large size JI unlimited would be somewhere between 3 and 5% commission for the artist!

and regardless of the percentage, we are getting $0.30 for an el sale of a xxl image on JI unlimited???

Additionally JI unlimited has 'image packs' where you select images and then they give a price for your collection, basically make your own cd. They specifically say this is not subscription, so I assume this would be similar pricing to macrostock cd's?? which are around $700-900 and work out to be around $20 an image. Our commission for these hasn't been mentioned (has it??? - its not partner sales because its JI) are we to get $0.30 commission for these sales too??? (if so, and even if work out at $15 per image that would be 2% commission

?)

I am going to put this on StockXpert forum too because even though there is a lot of assumptions etc this is giving me a feeling of gloom and doom.

Hopefully someone will show me that I am wrong and that this is a good mutually beneficial deal with good long term prospects

?

Phil

sharpshot · « **Reply #384 on:** August 10, 2008, 03:07 »

It will be interesting to see if there are any $100 commissions with photos.com. Would we even get that much at 30%? I just did the calculation and we would get $14.99 to $89.95.

Buyers can buy an equivalent of an EL for 30 cents and if they need XL or XLL, they are on StockXpert for a fraction of the price. I don't see why anyone would now pay the full price on photos.com. Even if there is an ocassional sale, $14.99 is less than most EL sales and $89.95 is just over 3 EL's with SS. As they are paying me 28% less commission than SS for subs downloads, I would have to get a few XL and XLL sales to make up the difference.

So we are being asked to sell our images with a license that lets the buyers do far more than the other sites and it doesn't look like we will make any more money, unless we get very lucky with XL an XXL sales.

There is also the obvious risk that if we go along with this, the other sites might have to scrap EL's to keep their customers. They need to come up with something much better than this to tempt me to opt in.

leaf · « **Reply #385 on:** August 10, 2008, 05:54 »

well put clearviewstock.

I hope stockxpert have a decent reply to the JI Unlimited thing. It does seem like we would be getting a crazy (unacceptably) low commission.

southmind · « **Reply #386 on:** August 10, 2008, 06:39 »

Don't let sell your photos for nothing.
In the next step your photos will be the property of Jupiter Image with no possibility to op "out".
Don't forget the way they tried to impose their "deal" : the lack of information and the holidays time, when almost of the contributors are in vacation. (and with a very short reply time)
How can you still be confident with this company

Phil · « **Reply #387 on:** August 10, 2008, 07:23 »

Quote from: southmind on August 10, 2008, 06:39

Don't let sell your photos for nothing.
In the next step your photos will be the property of Jupiter Image with no possibility to op "out".
Don't forget the way they tried to impose their "deal" : the lack of information and the holidays time, when almost of the contributors are in vacation. (and with a very short reply time)
How can you still be confident with this company

being southern hemisphere didn't think about it being vacations etc. certainly all seems to smell.

ironarrow · « **Reply #388 on:** August 10, 2008, 08:06 »

Quote from: sharpshot on August 10, 2008, 03:07

There is also the obvious risk that if we go along with this, the other sites might have to scrap EL's to keep their customers.

I said it from the start.. Opting-in and supporting them in this deal is equal to "shooting yourself in the head"!

madelaide · « **Reply #389 on:** August 10, 2008, 14:32 »

Quote from: sharpshot on August 10, 2008, 03:07

Buyers can buy an equivalent of an EL for 30 cents and if they need XL or XLL, they are on StockXpert for a fraction of the price. I don't see why anyone would now pay the full price on photos.com.

I think it is possible, if clients of Photos.com come from the macrostock market. But for those like me who prefer to have different portfolios in macro and microstock, this only adds to making this deal unacceptable.

BTW, don't people already pay more in Mostphotos for the same photos people have in the micros?

Where did you guys get the information about Jupiter Unlimited? Why do you think the commission there will also be 30c and for any size? Are these suppositions or did you read something? It has nothing to do with Photos.com deal, has it?

Anyway, as Photos.com deal was already unacceptable enough to me, I stayed opted-out from subs and will sleep peacefully.

I can't say anything about JI people, but we've had a good contact with StockXpert through Steve-oh and in the end StockXpert heard us, what is unique to any site (DT doesn't even let us propose any change to subs plan and FT after all the turmoil only increased commission slightly and let subs sales count a bit for ranks). So I won't make assumptions about they trying to cheat members in the northern hemisphere vacation. I'd rather think their intention was to release the "new" Photos.com collection when these vacations end.

Regards,
Adelaide

Phil · « **Reply #390 on:** August 10, 2008, 15:49 »

hi,

yes people pay at different pricing etc, people buy els at ss and people still buy at macrostock, so maybe there will be some sales, I just think they will be rare because of the contrasting nature of the two methods (cheap subs / macro price large files). People coming from macro market are more likely, but I think this will be very quickly targetted at SS's customers (thats the biggest number of sub customers and as a business you will be stupid not to go after them).

JI unlimited is mentioned in the last email they sent, it just says that it is subs and we get $0.30, the contributor page they sent a link for

http://www.stockxpert.com/lpages/contributor/

has a third column for JIU+, I then just went to there homepage and started looking around

http://www.jiunlimited.com/en/

re StockXpert and steve, I too have always been pleased with how things have been done, and I really want to give them the benefit of the doubt, that's why I'm asking for people to tell me I am wrong

Phil

southmind · « **Reply #391 on:** August 10, 2008, 16:07 »

Sorry Adelaide but FT limits the size and the licenses of subs.
More, I can opt out of subs for all my exclusive photos.
And more again , I win 0,26 euros by subs and not 0,19 euros like StockXpert propose.
I am not for subs but the deal is far better with FT than with StockXpert.
On an other point, my sales on FT have nothing to see with my sales on StockXpert...
Subs are rares and I sell many L and XL licences and 2/3 EL's a month.
And last, even if their communication can be improved, they didn't let the admins alone during a crisis...
Really , Steve was a good admin and StockXpert a good site, but J.I destroyed all the relations with contributors.
But, everyone is free to believe what he/she wants and to continue on this new basis.
I choosed to leave StockXpert.

ironarrow · « **Reply #392 on:** August 10, 2008, 17:34 »

What about if we take this issue to court?!

At the end of the day I don't remember signing anything with photos.com.. So who . is photos.com?!

I don't know them..

madelaide · « **Reply #393 on:** August 10, 2008, 22:23 »

Phil,

Thanks for the link. You're right, it does say images at JI give photographers only 30c, and not observation is made about size limits. Yes, the deal is even worse!

Southmind,

StockXpert let me opt-out from subs, something FT does not. I don't have exclusive images with them, so that option doesn't mean anything at all to me (and, as far as I can remember when FT changed, very few people here had exclusive images with them).

If I get your conversion right, you say you get 41c per subs dld at FT - how can this be if they're highest subs commission is 37c?

Limiting size is good, but subs include L sizes, or 3.7Mpix, which is basically the largest size I sell. Of my last 100 dlds, only 2 were above XLs. It is true however that not a very large part of my portfolio is 8Mpix and above, but than the situation is the same at StockXpert.

Subs sales are starting to pick up for me at FT, like it happened with StockXpert (it took me 6mo to opt-out there). Of my last 10 dlds, 3 were subs. Unlike in StockXpert, my only choice is to accept that, or leave the site. Like in 123RF, CS and CanStockPhoto, my decision with FT was to stop uploading until I see what happens.

Ironarrow,

Why go to court? Simply opt-out. Unfortunately terms may change (they all say that), and apparently it is legal to do that.

Regards,
Adelaide

southmind · « **Reply #394 on:** August 10, 2008, 23:59 »

@Adelaide

Here are my maths :

FT give me 0,31 cr for a sub (L Size). I translate this credit in Euros : 0,31 * 0,83 = 0,2573 euros.

StockXpert give me 0,30 $ for a sub. I translate in Euros : 0,30 / 1.54 = 0,1948 euros.

With FT I "win" 0,2573 euros for an L size and with StockXpert at any size 0,1948 euro.
And now we must give our ELs for this price
This is not acceptable.

cphoto · « **Reply #395 on:** August 11, 2008, 00:24 »

Quote from: photoshow on August 07, 2008, 13:48

I agree, major players who have not opted out have not yet done so because they are unaware of what is being pulled with this EULA at Photos.com. I have no doubt that there is not a pro level contributor out there that could possibly be in agreement with the subscription terms in the EULA of Photos.com

Looks like the #2 StockXpert contributor, Monica, also pulled out from subs. She has a great portfolio with more than 12000 images...

Surprisingly Andres, MaxFx, IOFoto and Yuri are still opted in.

cphoto · « **Reply #396 on:** August 11, 2008, 00:30 »

Interesting quote from Jupitermedia CEO:

“Revenues from our JupiterimagesUnlimited high level royalty-free subscription offering grew over 90% from the first half of 2007 to the first half of 2008. We also continue to experience significant growth from our Stockxpert.com microstock offering, both with single images and subscriptions. Our backlog for both JupiterimagesUnlimited and our Stockxpert.com microstock subscription offerings continue to increase which bodes well for future revenues," stated Jupitermedia's Chairman and CEO Alan M. Meckler

I'd love to learn more about this JupiterimageUnlimited offering and how that's going to mix with StockXpert.

ironarrow · « **Reply #397 on:** August 11, 2008, 07:23 »

Quote from: madelaide on August 10, 2008, 22:23

Ironarrow,

Why go to court? Simply opt-out. Unfortunately terms may change (they all say that), and apparently it is legal to do that.

Regards,
Adelaide

I did already! But there are people who won't opt-out as they have no principles.. It does not give StockXpert the right to walk over them..

madelaide · « **Reply #398 on:** August 11, 2008, 17:05 »

Quote from: southmind on August 10, 2008, 23:59

FT give me 0,31 cr for a sub (L Size). I translate this credit in Euros : 0,31 * 0,83 = 0,2573 euros.

StockXpert give me 0,30 $ for a sub. I translate in Euros : 0,30 / 1.54 = 0,1948 euros.

Now I see the confusion. You must be in an European FT. Those in FT USA (like me, even though I'm in Brazil) get 31c in FT (in that ranking) vs 30c in StockXpert. This has been discussed in another thread.

Quote from: southmind on August 10, 2008, 23:59

With FT I "win" 0,2573 euros for an L size and with StockXpert at any size 0,1948 euro.
And now we must give our ELs for this price

I agree with the first part (in your case, with the European FT), but you can simply opt-out as I did, and not only you won't make your photos available so cheaply, but also you don't have to sell them at Photos.com.

I simply like the fact that StockXpert let the decision in my hands. FT, DT and others don't.

Regards,
Adelaide

Phil · « **Reply #399 on:** August 11, 2008, 17:40 »

Quote from: cphoto on August 11, 2008, 00:24

Quote from: photoshow on August 07, 2008, 13:48
I agree, major players who have not opted out have not yet done so because they are unaware of what is being pulled with this EULA at Photos.com. I have no doubt that there is not a pro level contributor out there that could possibly be in agreement with the subscription terms in the EULA of Photos.com

Looks like the #2 StockXpert contributor, Monica, also pulled out from subs. She has a great portfolio with more than 12000 images...

Surprisingly Andres, MaxFx, IOFoto and Yuri are still opted in.

how do you tell who iis in subs and who isn't?

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