MicrostockGroup
Agency Based Discussion => iStockPhoto.com => Topic started by: jsmithzz on September 14, 2011, 07:54
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I'm curious as to what full-timers do for health insurance for those that aren't on a spouse's health plan? I suppose this mainly applies to Americans since every other country in the world seems to do a much better job of taking care of their citizens than we do.
Am mulling going full time within the next 1-2 years, but this is a big sticking point for me since it would cost me a fortune to insure myself privately.
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...since every other country in the world seems to do a much better job of taking care of their citizens than we do.
I prefer to take care of myself. I don't want the federal government to do it. Private health insurance these days offers many options. Or consider a combination of private choice and government tax assistance via a HSA (Health Savings Account) - the funds contributed to a HSA account are not subject to federal income tax at the time of deposit. I'm not naive enough to forego government help with taxes (my money anyway) as health insurance is costly but I don't think it should be free.
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OT: If your personal health shouldn't be free why should national or personal safety be free for that matter ? (army & police)
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I'm curious as to what full-timers do for health insurance for those that aren't on a spouse's health plan? I suppose this mainly applies to Americans since every other country in the world seems to do a much better job of taking care of their citizens than we do.
Am mulling going full time within the next 1-2 years, but this is a big sticking point for me since it would cost me a fortune to insure myself privately.
You go out an buy it. Start shopping for private insurance plans. I go through Anthem/BCBS currently. It's awesome how they raise the premium each year.
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It's awesome how they raise the premium each year.
Yeah, they love to do that. I think I need to get a new plan, so I can have it cheaper again for a couple years.
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Costs a lot here in South Africa too. Curious to compare. I'm paying about $600 a month for me and three dependants, on the most basic plan where the insurance cover is partial for most things and 100% only if you're leaking blood copiously on the hospital floor (I exaggerate, but not much).
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I pay about a grand for the 4 of us on "Premier Plus"...
http://www.anthem.com/health-insurance/plans-and-benefits/health-insurance-plan/MO (http://www.anthem.com/health-insurance/plans-and-benefits/health-insurance-plan/MO)
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You go out an buy it. Start shopping for private insurance plans. I go through Anthem/BCBS currently. It's awesome how they raise the premium each year.
We have insurance through my husband's teaching job, and they raise it every year too. Starting this month we are now paying $800/month to insure three (relatively) healthy people, and that's over and above the part the school board pays for us. We still have copays with that too.
Our freemarket economy at work. Ain't it grand? :P
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Move to Canada... It's cheaper here :)
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My husband's insurance covers us (me and 2 kids) at relatively modest extra monthly cost. We're very fortunate to have access to a great plan at a reasonable price. If one could buy privately (in the US) on the same terms offered to groups (no exclusions for pre-existing conditions and no cancelling you if you get sick) it would be a huge improvement for those who want to leave the 40 hours a week job market for consulting, multiple part time gigs, etc.
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Move to Canada... It's cheaper here :)
Don't think we haven't thought of it. Although I can do microstock anywhere, my hubby's teaching job is local.
But the big reason is that we are cowards. Been enjoying Florida sunshine and warm weather for too many decades to try and adjust to Canadian winters....Brrrrr!!
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Move to Canada... It's cheaper here :)
Don't think we haven't thought of it. Although I can do microstock anywhere, my hubby's teaching job is local.
But the big reason is that we are cowards. Been enjoying Florida sunshine and warm weather for too many decades to try and adjust to Canadian winters....Brrrrr!!
:) Toronto is not bad, just a couple of months of snowy weather, all you need is a good parka:) I lived in Edmonton for 4 years, now that was something - eyelashes freezing together, and you need to plug in your car in the winter or it won't start. Vancouver is even milder than Toronto - and scenic, too, mountains and ocean... I don't think it snows there often... And we have free basic medical! ;D
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I pay about a grand for the 4 of us on "Premier Plus"...
[url]http://www.anthem.com/health-insurance/plans-and-benefits/health-insurance-plan/MO[/url] ([url]http://www.anthem.com/health-insurance/plans-and-benefits/health-insurance-plan/MO[/url])
Hey, that's not so bad -- that's a nice-looking plan that would cost about the same here. Amazing, not to say frightening, to think that medical costs are comparable in South Africa and the US.
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I've looked into Canada's immigration policy. They won't take just anyone, and a medical exam is part of the application process. This would probably disqualify me & my husband Howard because he's seriously ill. I imagine they want to weed out Americans who are looking to emigrate in the hope of getting free health care. I lost my insurance when Howard's COBRA ran out, he'll qualify for Medicare in Sept 2012 since he's he's on permanent disability - in the meantime I'm paying $1000 a month just for Howard. His medical bills are so high that the alternative would be financial Armageddon. I'm hoping I can afford coverage for myself when Obama's health care reform law goes into effect. Hopefully the republicans won't kill it first.
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
Actually I think it is an even more basic right then education. Not all of us have kids, we all need to be healthy.
(Don't get me wrong I do think education should be free as well)
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Don't think we haven't thought of it. Although I can do microstock anywhere, my hubby's teaching job is local.
But the big reason is that we are cowards. Been enjoying Florida sunshine and warm weather for too many decades to try and adjust to Canadian winters....Brrrrr!!
Maybe, Cuba then? ;D
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
It does make you wonder about the LIFE part in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't mind paying for my health care. I just wish it was a little more reasonably priced and a lot less corrupt.
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
That comment raised my eyebrows too! It's a bit like saying "I think poor people deserve to die unnecessarily early or at least be maimed or in continual pain". Why do you want that when you live in the richest country on earth? I thought that the measure of a civilized society is how they treat their most vulnerable.
Bizarrely the health expenditure per capita in the USA is nearly 3x that in the UK ... but life expectancy is actually one year less in the USA.
I'm absolutely astonished to read how much folk are paying for medical insurance. For a family of 4 it's more than I pay in income tax, national insurance and property tax combined.
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I'm absolutely astonished to read how much folk are paying for medical insurance. For a family of 4 it's more than I pay in income tax, national insurance and property tax combined.
But on the other hand, you aren't paying for layers and layers of insurance company bureaucracy. Not to mention sheer greed. Healthcare in the US is a for profit industry, not a civil right. :(
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Well "free healthcare" is not really free - you pay for it with your taxes. However, if something bad happens to you and you're not able to pay taxes anymore - you're sick, injured, out of job - you still have access to the "free" healthcare, and it's when you most need it. In this way it's a government-controlled collective insurance - you pay when you're able to, and you collect when you need it. I think it's a pretty fair system.
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national health here in Europe is one of the few public things that no government - left or right wing - ever tried to privatise; and average level is good, so we're lucky in that sense
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Move to Canada... It's cheaper here :)
Of course you could end up paying in other ways too. When I was diagnosed with a condition that required surgery I was able to get that scheduled within 2 weeks. Canadians on a forum for those suffering from the same condition were waiting about 8 months to get approved to get the surgery. Some from England had been waiting over a year and had still not been approved for the surgery. I've rather pay and have quick access than wait forever for government approvals on my health needs.
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
Agreed, but health care in Europe and elsewhere in the world is not free. It is paid for through taxes. Unless you are poor, of course. I wish everybody would stop saying it is free. It seems that it may be cheaper and more reliable than the private insurance companies we Americans use, though.
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Move to Canada... It's cheaper here :)
Of course you could end up paying in other ways too. When I was diagnosed with a condition that required surgery I was able to get that scheduled within 2 weeks. Canadians on a forum for those suffering from the same condition were waiting about 8 months to get approved to get the surgery. Some from England had been waiting over a year and had still not been approved for the surgery. I've rather pay and have quick access than wait forever for government approvals on my health needs.
One of my relatives needed a liver transplant and was put on a waiting list in the US. It took about three months to receive the liver. So we have waiting lists too. We have simply transferred the bureaucratic nightmare into a private company nightmare.
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Of course you could end up paying in other ways too. When I was diagnosed with a condition that required surgery I was able to get that scheduled within 2 weeks. Canadians on a forum for those suffering from the same condition were waiting about 8 months to get approved to get the surgery. Some from England had been waiting over a year and had still not been approved for the surgery. I've rather pay and have quick access than wait forever for government approvals on my health needs.
Nothing to stop you having private health insurance in addition to the 'government cover'. Lots of people do and it's a fairly standard benefit of a decent job. It tends to be much cheaper than in the USA as, generally speaking, it doesn't need to provide cover for chronic conditions, etc.
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
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For those who don't follow the U.S. presidential debates
http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/09/tea-partiers-cheer-to-let-uninsured-die-ron-paul-says-let-churches-help/ (http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/09/tea-partiers-cheer-to-let-uninsured-die-ron-paul-says-let-churches-help/)
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but I don't think it should be free.
You don't think healthcare should be free? Why is that? I'd consider it a basic right, along with education. But of course we're all commies here in Europeland ;-)
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For those who don't follow the U.S. presidential debates
[url]http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/09/tea-partiers-cheer-to-let-uninsured-die-ron-paul-says-let-churches-help/[/url] ([url]http://blog.chron.com/rickperry/2011/09/tea-partiers-cheer-to-let-uninsured-die-ron-paul-says-let-churches-help/[/url])
Bizarre. So your neighbours and friends should stump up for your health bills - just so your neighbours and friends don't have to pay health tax.
Whatever way you look at it, healthcare is never free. The only question is whether society wants to protect its members or not.
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Wow. Lots of interesting responses.
I also agree that I should pay something and also agree that I shouldn't have to pay through the roof. As it stands, I would have to pay about $500 per month for COBRA coverage which lasts for 18 months. After that, I could keep my coverage but the rate would double to $1,000 per month. And this is coverage for ONE PERSON. Ridiculous.
I will say that I can always get in to see a doctor, sometimes on the same day. And the couple of more major things I've had done along with scans and such, I've never had to wait more than a week. But on the flip side, it costs a lot of money that many Americans these days don't have.
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Whatever way you look at it, healthcare is never free. The only question is whether society wants to protect its members or not.
Right. So how far exactly does a country need to go to "protect its members"? Why not just make everything free for everybody? Everybody needs shelter so let the government provide that. Everybody needs food too so how about the government provides that also? Oh wait. Somebody has to pay for all of this?
Here in the USA the ever increasing programs to protect its members are creating a growing society of people who spend their lives on various welfare programs. And it has become expected that if you are unable, or more commonly are unwilling, to help yourself that there's a government program for you. Lose your job? Why get a job at the local convenience store for $9 per hour when you can sit on your a$$ for two years making $10 per hour from the government? Oh and you lost your job yet again because you showed up late or drunk every day and this time you injured yourself? That's okay. If you need healthcare one of the local hospitals will take care of you and your bill because your historic level of income is considered to be at the poverty level.
Back on topic. I got a quote for insurance for my family and a decent program similar to what my job offers would be in the $1,200 - $1,500 per month range.
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Here in the USA the ever increasing programs to protect its members are creating a growing society of people who spend their lives on various welfare programs. And it has become expected that if you are unable, or more commonly are unwilling, to help yourself that there's a government program for you.
Exactly. Thus the current backlash against all the "entitlement" programs. (I'm "entitled" to this, and "entitled" to that, so give it to me free)
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Back on topic. I got a quote for insurance for my family and a decent program similar to what my job offers would be in the $1,200 - $1,500 per month range.
That's ridiculous. A worker on minimum wage in the UK would barely earn that in total. How can 'healthcare' possibly cost that much to provide?
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Why is healthcare in the US so expensive? Here is a good synopsis -
http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/ (http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/)
The bullet points are -
Insurance Companies are businesses
No electronic records
Perverse incentives
Malpractice madness
Statistics
Premium pricing in the ER
We're fat
We take more pills
No shopping across state lines
What do I owe
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Back on topic. I got a quote for insurance for my family and a decent program similar to what my job offers would be in the $1,200 - $1,500 per month range.
That's ridiculous. A worker on minimum wage in the UK would barely earn that in total. How can 'healthcare' possibly cost that much to provide?
it certainly makes National Insurance seem incredibly good value, at least by comparison. :)
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If I would have stayed in the government health insurance me and my wife (she is also working) would probably have to pay $1400 a month here in Germany. So I decided to go privately and we are down to around $900 together. But at least the coverage is pretty good. It is amazing how expensive insurance is if you are are self-employed.
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Healthcare is never free.
I prefer tax paid healthcare provided by governments instead of private healthcare provided by 'for profit' companies.
Healthcare is one of those things I believe that have to be provided at a 'loss' instead of 'for profit' because the profit on healthcare is healthy people. A healthy society is a profit by itself.
You can't really trust a 'for profit' healthcare system to take care of your health if you are not profitable. They can only care for people that has enough money to be profitable or people that is already healthy.
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I can't believe how much people are saying healthcare cost in the US!
It's more than my total tax bill for the year and I get some police thrown in on that too.
And they say the market can provide things more efficiently, what a joke.
There also seems to be a lot of misinformation about the efficiency of healthcare in the UK, not surprising when big business has so much to lose if government healthcare comes in. I have never had to wait an unreasonable amount of time for treatment and have had relatives with everything from bowl cancer to TB and they've never had any problems either.
Same with investigative procedures, I've never heard of anyone being refused if they ask fir something specifically.
I think one of the problems is that government is no longer thought of as expressing the collective will of the people, business has done such a great job of convincing us they are our friends, instead of just a government minus the accountability.
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I think one of the problems is that government is no longer thought of as expressing the collective will of the people, business has done such a great job of convincing us they are our friends, instead of just a government minus the accountability.
Very true. A creeping coup d'etat by business is occurring in many parts of the world. Eventually so much of the public sphere will be private that elections won't matter any more (not that they matter a whole lot already, the way things are structured).
Charlie Chaplin denounced fascists as "machine men with machine hearts"; nowadays, we still have machine men but their hearts are of money.
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"(health) I don't think it should be free."
I don't hesitate for a moment to classify this statement as crime against humanity.
It's shameful someone thinks like this. The right to access healthcare is among the most basic human rights along with food, water, and even before education.
I'm proud to be European in this matter and would be ashamed to be from a country that let people die because they simply cannot afford treatments, or send good, honest, hardworking people to absolute and total ruin just because they had a misfortune to get sick. The idea is just nauseating.
And we don't need to let the government treat us exclusively. There's always the chance to buy an health insurance plan (deductible on taxes) that will give you access to faster appointments and a larger freedom to choose doctors, which by the way, are the same doctors who would treat you on public hospital since they work both on public and private hospitals.
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"(health) I don't think it should be free."
I don't hesitate for a moment to classify this statement as crime against humanity.
It's shameful someone thinks like this. The right to access healthcare is among the most basic human rights along with food, water, and even before education.
I'm proud to be European in this matter and would be ashamed to be from a country that let people die because they simply cannot afford treatments, or send good, honest, hardworking people to absolute and total ruin just because they had a misfortune to get sick. The idea is just nauseating.
And we don't need to let the government treat us exclusively. There's always the chance to buy an health insurance plan (deductible on taxes) that will give you access to faster appointments and a larger freedom to choose doctors, which by the way, are the same doctors who would treat you on public hospital since they work both on public and private hospitals.
The USA is trying to move toward a program where everyone has insurance.
If you wouldn't mind me asking, what percentage of your income ends up in your pocket after taxes?
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Insurance companies cannot be trusted. Rescinding coverage for people who dare to get sick and denying coverage for those with pre-existing conditions is what brought us to Obamacare in the first place.
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"I'm proud to be European in this matter and would be ashamed to be from a country that let people die because they simply cannot afford treatments"
Where do you draw the line? Does the government (you/me) pay for someone's million dollar treatment? Is 100,000 too much? 100,000 a month? What?
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The USA is trying to move toward a program where everyone has insurance.
If you wouldn't mind me asking, what percentage of your income ends up in your pocket after taxes?
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Half of America is moving willingly towards it while half of Congress is trying to unravel those plans.
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The USA is trying to move toward a program where everyone has insurance.
If you wouldn't mind me asking, what percentage of your income ends up in your pocket after taxes?
Half of America is moving willingly towards it while half of Congress is trying to unravel those plans.
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The overall plan is to make it mandatory for people to buy insurance at a reasonable rate and remove provider restrictions such as refusing people who have pre-existing conditions. A novel effort but people in the USA can buy basic plans now for around $500 per month. If they supposedly can't afford it now, how will making it mandatory help?
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One more thing to add. I still pay $500 per month for insurance. My employer is covering the rest which is probably another $600-$700 per month.
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Here in the USA the ever increasing programs to protect its members are creating a growing society of people who spend their lives on various welfare programs. And it has become expected that if you are unable, or more commonly are unwilling, to help yourself that there's a government program for you.
Exactly. Thus the current backlash against all the "entitlement" programs. (I'm "entitled" to this, and "entitled" to that, so give it to me free)
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http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-11-2011/lactate-intolerance (http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-11-2011/lactate-intolerance)
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If I would have stayed in the government health insurance me and my wife (she is also working) would probably have to pay $1400 a month here in Germany. So I decided to go privately and we are down to around $900 together. But at least the coverage is pretty good. It is amazing how expensive insurance is if you are are self-employed.
Fourteen hundred a month? How much do other countries who have government health care pay per month? Personally, I do not mind private health care. As long as it is fairly priced, and the insurance company can not drop me when I become ill. But I am still reasonably young and healthy, so my health care is reasonably cheap ($140 a month). I am under no illusions that it will continue to be affordable as I age. The only question is which will be more affordable and beneficial? A government health care plan or a for profit one? If the government plan is more beneficial, then I am going to vote for that one. And vice versa. I do not have any issues with socialism when it comes to health care. Especially, health care for critical issues like a failing organ or something along those lines.
Right now this is what the new US health care law does.
Pre-existing conditions can no longer disqualify someone from insurance.
You can not be dropped anymore if you become ill.
Annual limits have been abolished.
Mandatory insurance. If an individual earns around $14,700 or more a year then they must purchase insurance. If you earn under that, then you are put on Medicaid. Add a few thousand dollars to that $14,700 for each additional family member. So a family of four with one person working and earning $20,000 a year would be put on Medicaid if I understand it correctly. This starts in 2014. You will be fined if you do not bother buying health insurance after 2014. Until then, it does not matter.
The donut hole for seniors is slowly closing. This makes some medications cheaper.
It allows young adults under 26 to stay on their parents plan.
Companies with over 50 full time employees have to buy health care plans for them in the future. Though, they are currently receiving waivers from the government to delay implementation of this part of the law.
And it goes on and on. It's long and complex, but I think I got most of it right. And the mandatory insurance bit could be repealed by the Supreme Court.
The parts of this new health care law that I like are the abolition of annual limits, and the fact that my health care company can not drop me anymore. I'm indifferent to the mandatory insurance.
I think health care in the US should go something like this.
One plan for critical issues that goes into effect the day you are born.
You can never be dropped from this plan.
Everyone with an income level (including investments) would pay into this plan. Use a flat tax if you like.
Healthy individuals can use this plan for one doctor visit per year; more visits than this for a healthy person will come out of their own pocket or other insurance plan.
As we age or become critically ill, more doctor visits would be allowed.
You can never be dropped from the plan.
Certain types of screenings are covered. Like preventative type items for cancer and whatnot.
Medication that exceeds an individual's ability to pay are covered.
Dental covered to some degree.
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So government should just pay for everything for everyone. OK.
Has anyone been reading the financial news these days about Europe teetering on financial collapse? Greeks riot because it's suggested they should work past their 50s. The whole country is about to go bankrupt. China may be stepping in to bail out Italy. Not to simplify things too much... there are lots of causes for the financial catastrophe that's just around the corner... but the idea that someone should expect the government to provide for your every need is certainly a contributing factor.
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So government should just pay for everything for everyone. OK.
Has anyone been reading the financial news these days about Europe teetering on financial collapse? Greeks riot because it's suggested they should work past their 50s. The whole country is about to go bankrupt. China may be stepping in to bail out Italy. Not to simplify things too much... there are lots of causes for the financial catastrophe that's just around the corner... but the idea that someone should expect the government to provide for your every need is certainly a contributing factor.
Not everything, just certain things that are beyond the average taxpayers abilities to pay. For example, Lasik eye surgery. No, the government should not pay for that. It is not a critical health care need. I mean sight is important and all, but you can still just buy glasses or contact lenses from the private market.
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It's true that they have to draw the line somewhere, and there have been some odd (to me) cases in the UK where, for example, a young teenage girl had breast augmentation because it was deemed that her breast size was mentally damaging to her.
Personally I would have rather seen her learn to have a more useful perspective on life, but I don't make the rules. It's up to governments to legislate on what free treatment should and should not cover, and I certaiinly feel that cosmetic treatments should only be free for those who who have been severely disfigured by injuries. "Where the line is drawn" is something that evolves over time, as new scenarios arise.
But on the whole, the NHS works for most people, and both the public and the medics come out in force to protest when anything appears to be threatening it. Many people in the UK who can afford private health insurance do have it, and we have plenty of private hospitals too. In some cases people choose to pay because they prefer the private room of a private hospital to a multiple-bed ward in an NHS one; in other cases because they act with altruism in not wishing to take up a hospital bed from someone who needs free treatment more than they do.
Paulie Walnuts asked about tax. I can give the current bands for the UK:
Up to £7,475 no tax is paid (said to be increasing to £10,000)
Any portion of salary between £7,475 and £35,000 20% tax is paid
Any portion of salary between £35,000 and £150,000 40% tax
Any portion of salary over £150,000 50% tax (but the 50% band may be scrapped)
(Edited for clarity... hopefully).
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"I'm proud to be European in this matter and would be ashamed to be from a country that let people die because they simply cannot afford treatments"
Where do you draw the line? Does the government (you/me) pay for someone's million dollar treatment? Is 100,000 too much? 100,000 a month? What?
It's the same as with an insurance company, you cover the expense of someone else's million dollar treatment with your fees even if you don't ever claim yourself. You just end up paying a lot less if the "company" providing the insurance is the government.
It sounds like people are prepared to pay more for a worse service as long as they can be assured 100% that they won't be helping anyone who doesn't deserve their help. No I'm not one for helping scroungers, but I don't think I'd take my anti-altruism to the point where I'd pay extra to guarantee someone else suffered.
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The USA is trying to move toward a program where everyone has insurance.
If you wouldn't mind me asking, what percentage of your income ends up in your pocket after taxes?
Again, my whole tax bill is less then some of the figures quoted here just for medical insurance.
It's being suckered by big business into thinking that somehow it's better that they are taking your money for providing a service at a higher cost, and less efficiently/ less effectively than the government.
It's the myth of customer choice again, like everyone doesn't want the same thing from their health service ie. the most effective and convenient level of care possible. Somehow we've been made to think that as long as we have a choice about who is screwing us it's fine to get screwed, coupled with the idea that we don't have a choice about who governs us.
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A question. In USA if you have no money and you get hit by a car and have a broken leg/pelvis what happens at the moment. Is there any safety net ?
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Many countries are posing as masters of free health care, etc, but in truth its just as lousy as anywhere else. Here in Sweden, possibly the highest taxed country in the world and high standards, older people have to wait for years for a hip replacement, hospitals are going bancrupt, closing. There is no excuse here, with a population of just 9 million, this should be a paradise. All our medical people, doctors, nurses, dentists, etc, are emigrating to either England or Norway and paid twice as much in wages.
Grass is certainly not greener anywhere else.
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"I'm proud to be European in this matter and would be ashamed to be from a country that let people die because they simply cannot afford treatments"
Where do you draw the line? Does the government (you/me) pay for someone's million dollar treatment? Is 100,000 too much? 100,000 a month? What?
Yes, the government (you/me) does pay for the million dollar treatment. In cases where my country hasn't the necessary treatment - latest technology or too expensive to have in the NHS due to rarity of cases - the patients may be sent to get treatment in another country that provides them, even private hospitals.
The state provide for the payment of treatment and supports the travels and I guess even the stay. It's obvious that this is made only exceptionally, but the fact is that we cover all specialties with modern technology and knowledge so, as I mentioned, only exceptional cases need to use it.
It's obvious that the government will not pay for vanity surgeries, but plastic surgeries, if considered reconstructive surgeries will be covered, from facial plastic surgeries to breast implants due to breast cancer.
But if you wish you can pay for your private insurance plan or go to private clinics and hospitals. No one forbids you from doing it. As long as you have the money. But if you don't, you won't be denied a fair treatment no mater how rich or poor you are.
One curious thing happened recently. A multi-millionaire, owner of big banks and business including one of the major private healthcare insurance companies got sick. Do you think he got committed in his luxurious private hospitals? Wrong! He was committed and treated in a public hospital. Why is that? Because he knows that it's where the best technology and doctors are and that he would be treated with fairness. Food for thought...
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The USA is trying to move toward a program where everyone has insurance.
If you wouldn't mind me asking, what percentage of your income ends up in your pocket after taxes?
It depends on your income level, but you may be exempt to pay taxes if your income is low, to pay 35% or a bit more of the income, if you have a higher income.
But that money doesn't go exclusively to the Healthcare system. It finances the public school, police, military, public constructions like highways, finances the municipalities to build infrastructures like water, etc.
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So government should just pay for everything for everyone. OK.
Has anyone been reading the financial news these days about Europe teetering on financial collapse? Greeks riot because it's suggested they should work past their 50s. The whole country is about to go bankrupt.
That is an ENOURMOUS misinterpretation of the problem of Greece and other countries in Europe. It's not the Healthcare system that put these countries in that situation.
It's corruption and terrible management (I would call it even criminal) of the resources.
If you have a country like Greece, where only a fraction of the population pays taxes, and everyone else evades it, while the government doesn't do anything to correct it, people retiring at young age like hairdressers retiring at age 55, because they are considered an hazardous profession :o , an hospital with 30 gardeners when it has only 3 tress :o , official cars with 40 drives assigned to each :o , a foundation meant to protect a lake that it's dry since the 1930's :o , or a life pension for the single daughters of former public workers :o :o :o among many other examples, it's obvious things will not work out well.
With management like this there's not a single State or private company, for that matter, in the world that can survive
It's not the sustainability of the system that is in question. What is in question in countries like Greece and Portugal is that horrendous managent of resources coupled with massive corruption and nepotism where family and friends are hired to work for the state when the state does not need , or afford, more people.
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One curious thing happened recently. A multi-millionaire, owner of big banks and business including one of the major private healthcare insurance companies got sick. Do you think he got committed in his luxurious private hospitals? Wrong! He was committed and treated in a public hospital. Why is that? Because he knows that it's where the best technology and doctors are and that he would be treated with fairness. Food for thought...
And where did the UK prime minister send his very sick child before he was PM, even though he is a multimillionaire? the NHS.
It's the same doctors that do both private and NHS work in the UK anyway.
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Yes true. A right-wing Tory too. I think that's a major point. The desire to keep the NHS free crosses all party lines, all political persuasions, all walks of life. I get the feeling that in the US it's a left vs right argument... a Capitalist vs 'Commie' position. It just isn't like that here.
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Yes, the government (you/me) does pay for the million dollar treatment. In cases where my country hasn't the necessary treatment - latest technology or too expensive to have in the NHS due to rarity of cases - the patients may be sent to get treatment in another country that provides them, even private hospitals.
Come on, that's ridiculous. Everyone is going to think they need the next best, or experimental, or cutting edge whatever it is, no matter what the cost. Why should we foot a 100 million dollar bill for 100 people who may be going to die anyways two weeks later, when you can feed 10,000 people and shelter them? There is not an endless money tree out there. There's a minimum that should be met, and extreme work should come at a cost to the one who needs it.
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Many people in the UK who can afford private health insurance do have it, and we have plenty of private hospitals too. In some cases people choose to pay because they prefer the private room of a private hospital to a multiple-bed ward in an NHS one; in other cases because they act with altruism in not wishing to take up a hospital bed from someone who needs free treatment more than they do.
And I've read about people in small companies, e.g. one-man person businesses, who buy private insurance so that they can arrange to have treatment at a time of minimal damage to their customers, or to give them time to book in 'help', whatever.
Similarly I've read of private companies getting insurance for their 'key' employees for the same reason.
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Yes, the government (you/me) does pay for the million dollar treatment. In cases where my country hasn't the necessary treatment - latest technology or too expensive to have in the NHS due to rarity of cases - the patients may be sent to get treatment in another country that provides them, even private hospitals.
Come on, that's ridiculous. Everyone is going to think they need the next best, or experimental, or cutting edge whatever it is, no matter what the cost. Why should we foot a 100 million dollar bill for 100 people who may be going to die anyways two weeks later, when you can feed 10,000 people and shelter them? There is not an endless money tree out there. There's a minimum that should be met, and extreme work should come at a cost to the one who needs it.
Yep that's why there's decisions made in the NHS based of the effectiveness of treatments. If something really doesn't stack up in terms of cost/ benefit then it won't be offered.
Again, all problems that you have with private insurance companies and what they don't/ do cover/ try to wriggle out of etc. etc. but the difference is that the NHS's main priority isn't to squeeze as much cash out of the consumer for the minimum payout. Not that there's anything wrong with free market economics per se, but it's just misplaced in healthcare. We can do better by providing the service ourselves as a society.
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"I'm proud to be European in this matter and would be ashamed to be from a country that let people die because they simply cannot afford treatments"
Where do you draw the line? Does the government (you/me) pay for someone's million dollar treatment? Is 100,000 too much? 100,000 a month? What?
+1
There seems to be a misunderstanding on Obamacare. It's not free. Everyone will have coverage only because they are mandated by law to pay for their own coverage. The "everyone claim" is driven by the fact that insurance companies can't turn anyone down for pre existing conditions so there's no reason left on the table to prevent you from purchasing insurance.
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A question. In USA if you have no money and you get hit by a car and have a broken leg/pelvis what happens at the moment. Is there any safety net ?
Yes, care is free.
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Yes, the government (you/me) does pay for the million dollar treatment. In cases where my country hasn't the necessary treatment - latest technology or too expensive to have in the NHS due to rarity of cases - the patients may be sent to get treatment in another country that provides them, even private hospitals.
Come on, that's ridiculous. Everyone is going to think they need the next best, or experimental, or cutting edge whatever it is, no matter what the cost. Why should we foot a 100 million dollar bill for 100 people who may be going to die anyways two weeks later, when you can feed 10,000 people and shelter them? There is not an endless money tree out there. There's a minimum that should be met, and extreme work should come at a cost to the one who needs it.
You're grossly misinterpreting what I said. I said "necessary treatment", which means it's a "treatment" not a caprice, therefore a reasonable chance to keep that person healthy or alive. If there's no chance, or a very slim one, that a person will survive than that person will not get the treatment.
The way you're saying things it's like people went to the Healthcare Systems and chose which treatment they want and where they want to get it. You're wrongly interpreting the Public Healthcare System like a restaurant! And thats very far from the truth.
When you say "Everyone is going to think they need the next best, or experimental, or cutting edge whatever it is, no matter what the cost." that's no different to what happens in America with the private insurance plans.
People allways want the max, but are evaluated by doctors, and they determine which treatments will be given to them. And that is no different from a public or private hospital in any way. I'm pretty sure if you go to your private hospital you won't be bossing around doctors regarding which treatments you want to have. They will give you what they consider it's best for you and reasonable.
But with a National Healthcare System the doctors may do an extra effort, because they don't need to take into account the plans of the insurance company's president to buy a new 10 million dollar yacht, and how the cost of saving your life may damage that project...
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million dollar treatment?
Just a side note on the "million dollar treatment". A treatment that costs a million dollars in the US, is more likely to cost a few thousand Euros in Europe. The same exact thing. Simply because there's not the objective to make it profitable.
In US you pay drugs on the hundreds of dollars a box, that here cost 10 or 20€. The same medicine, with the laboratory brand and not the generic product which by itself already includes profit to the pharmaceutical company. And I'm not even talking about a com-participated price by the state. 10 or 20€ completely on your own for a branded product against hundreds of dollars for the same thing from a generic brand in the US. Why the difference?!
So when you talk about the "million dollar treatment", you're talking about a treatment that costs a few thousands, but due to sheer greed, in the US they charge you 1 million dollar to have it and you even feel privileged!
Americans are being robbed big time but they resist to understand and even get proud of it.
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A question. In USA if you have no money and you get hit by a car and have a broken leg/pelvis what happens at the moment. Is there any safety net ?
Yes, care is free.
As I understand it, you won't be denied entry into an ER if you show up and need urgent care, but the hospital will definitely send you the bill afterwards.
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Even the King of Spain used public healthcare instead of private healthcareforprofit.
The corporations use the media to tell the people that public healthcare is bad, expensive and all this just because they want a bigger cut of the healthcare pie and want to profit from it. Services provided by governments are not bad 'per se', but are bad for companies that want to profit from this service.
They (the corporations) will say anything to get more from you and increase their profits. And this applies to all levels, even stock photography.
Do you remember the last time a corporation told you that they were doing something for your benefit but the only result was their own profit? I think it was two weeks ago.
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The corporations use the media to tell the people that public healthcare is bad, expensive and all this just because they want a bigger cut of the healthcare pie and want to profit from it. Services provided by governments are not bad 'per se', but are bad for companies that want to profit from this service.
Very, very true. In my country that's the argument being used to destroy the National Healthcare System, to the point that the government made contracts with private entities to run several public hospitals. They said, private management would be more rational, efficient and would cut in unnecessary expenses and waste. The hospitals would still be public, only the management is private, so no risk of losing money to these managing companies.
The result? A TOTAL CATASTROPHE!!!
The hospitals that got privately ran presented the worse results ever with enormous damages in the finances - in the area of the thousands of millions € (billions of dollars).
Not to mention severe faults in hygiene, medical procedures and not to comply with most of their obligations like implementing a series of specialties in those hospitals. A disaster.
And these were modern hospitals built from scratch less than 10 years ago and one the last year, not old facilities with problems.
The image that privately run hospitals were better, more efficient e cheaper fall down like a castle of cards (in flames).
They became more expensive - because the managing company had to have their profit unlike the State that does not want to profit from healthcare - and could not cut in expenses because they were necessary
They were not more competent than public servants
The public was in danger with the hospital transferring patients to other units to cut in the expenses of that hospital :o
Even lack of hygiene and safety medical procedures were detected to the point that one hospital refuses to allow Fiscals to get in and check the conditions which is highly illegal. :o
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So when you talk about the "million dollar treatment", you're talking about a treatment that costs a few thousands, but due to sheer greed, in the US they charge you 1 million dollar to have it and you even feel privileged!
Actually, I was thinking more about long, extended expensive hospital stays, with many specialists and lots of costly equipment and medicine.
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an excerpt from the documentary "Sicko"
Nixon Launches the HMO's - What a SICKO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QkgUkM0o6Q#)
thanks nixon
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So when you talk about the "million dollar treatment", you're talking about a treatment that costs a few thousands, but due to sheer greed, in the US they charge you 1 million dollar to have it and you even feel privileged!
Actually, I was thinking more about long, extended expensive hospital stays, with many specialists and lots of costly equipment and medicine.
Those long, extended expensive stays are profitable in a different way.
They are a good source of learning for doctors and a way to research.
The long, extended expensive stay of yesterday is the short cheap one day surgery of today.
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Just a side note on the "million dollar treatment". A treatment that costs a million dollars in the US, is more likely to cost a few thousand Euros in Europe. The same exact thing. Simply because there's not the objective to make it profitable.
Certainly, when buying travel insurance in the UK, there are generally three levels of cover: Europe, rest of world and USA, with the US cover being much more expensive than going to the wilds of anywhere where there's a much higher risk of catching diseases, for example.
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an excerpt from the documentary "Sicko"
Great movie. A real eye-opener.
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So when you talk about the "million dollar treatment", you're talking about a treatment that costs a few thousands, but due to sheer greed, in the US they charge you 1 million dollar to have it and you even feel privileged!
Actually, I was thinking more about long, extended expensive hospital stays, with many specialists and lots of costly equipment and medicine.
Even then, if you take off the profit, the expense will never ever, get to the astronomical numbers charged in US I keep reading in many forums.
I don't know exactly about US prices in terms of exams, but did a little research on google and got appalling numbers!
The costs I mention from my country are from a private clinic with full price where the mentioned costs have no help from the State or even a Health Insurance. So, full price. With an exam credential from the State they would cost a pittance. And haven't even checked for cheaper places.
And these are exams made with modern equipment, not outdated junk.
x-ray of both knees
35€ - my country - but there are x-rays of other body parts that go for 15€, to a maximum of 60€
$130 - USA :o - this is the minimum, but the average is $200 and the maximum over a $1000
CT Scan
120€ - my country - this was the least expensive but depending on area it can cost a maximum of 160€
$698 - USA :o - this was the minimum but I saw numbers like $2000 or $3000 or $8000!
EKG
12€ - my country
$470 - USA :o :o :o - but it can go up to $2850
Cardiac Stress Test
100€ - my country
$1100 - USA :o :o :o - but it can go up to $10.000
And the list could go on and on.
Again, my country's prices are from a private clinic, where there's profit involved and with full price (no state or insurance to reduce the costs). How is it possible that the same exams in the US costs hundreds of times more? I would put my hands on fire that the equipments are even of the same manufacturers in both countries.
And I live in an European country with good and reputed doctors, with many among the best in their specialty worldwide which teach in the universities. So, we're not talking about cheap witchdoctors...
More, the cases you mention are just a fraction of all medical cases, and if the expenses mean to save the life of people I think it's money well spent because we never know when we will need the same treatments. And get sick and in the process homeless is inhumane.
EDIT:
And if people have simple and cheap access to healthcare, those long stays in the hospital with expensive specialists and equipment will be reduced to a minimum since people don't wait to be dying to get to a doctor. It's called preventive medicine.
I prefer to have a doctor appointment like I had today where I payed 2.5€, to get a prescription of a blood-thinner that even without prescription costs me 2,5€; than to avoid a doctor appointment because I cannot afford an insurance and private consults and have a Stroke, get disabled and then have a long stay in the hospital with expensive specialists and equipment and loose the house at the end.
What do you thin it's the cheapest situation for a country socially and economically in the end?...
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CT Scan
120€ - my country - this was the least expensive but depending on area it can cost a maximum of 160€
$698 - USA :o - this was the minimum but I saw numbers like $2000 or $3000 or $8000!
EKG
12€ - my country
$470 - USA :o :o :o - but it can go up to $2850
Cardiac Stress Test
100€ - my country
$1100 - USA :o :o :o - but it can go up to $10.000
Wow, that's ridiculous. :o
A few years ago I had EKG, CT, Cardiac Stress Test and didn't pay a cent. Everything was done on modern equipment.
Our health insurance costs about 15% of the gross salary, about 7% is paid by the employer, about 8% by the employee. You can buy additional private insurance if you want. If you visit a doctor you pay 10 €, but you pay it only once in a quarter, no matter how often you visit your doctor.
My doctor's office is in the house next to mine :) I can't really complain.
Our GDP per capita is somewhat lower than in the US, but our debt is much lower and we have lower unemployment.
I visited the US 3 times as a student and I must say that for the average person the quality of life is much higher in Western / Northern Europe. On the other hand, the really rich in the US have much more money than the rich in Europe.
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Why is healthcare in the US so expensive? Here is a good synopsis -
[url]http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/[/url] ([url]http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/[/url])
The bullet points are -
Insurance Companies are businesses
No electronic records
Perverse incentives
Malpractice madness
Statistics
Premium pricing in the ER
We're fat
We take more pills
No shopping across state lines
What do I owe
And lobbyists pouring big bucks into their political coffers
And party line ideologies (Libs vs. indep vs conservs)
And ignoring constituent voice
And too many regulations
And too many singular political beliefs pushing theirs on the masses
And block and tackle to resolve the real barriers to a robust, cost effective system (tort reform)
Just sayin.
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A question. In USA if you have no money and you get hit by a car and have a broken leg/pelvis what happens at the moment. Is there any safety net ?
Yes, care is free.
As I understand it, you won't be denied entry into an ER if you show up and need urgent care, but the hospital will definitely send you the bill afterwards.
So if you had no money they would take you to court and take your cardboard box you sleep in ? Or is there some budget allowed for cases like this built into everybody elses costs they pay.
Are all the hospitals privately owned and run for profit or are there like community ones or ones run by things like the church etc that are not for profit.
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Hospitals in the US typically bill uninsured individuals 4X what they receive from insuranced or medicare patients. Many people never pay. Others lose their homes. Half of all bankruptcies in the US are medical care - cost related.
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Hospitals in the US typically bill uninsured individuals 4X what they receive from insurance or medicare patients. Many people never pay. Others lose their homes. Half of all bankruptcies in the US are medical care - cost related.
---------------------------------------------
Once you've lost your job, gone bankrupt or otherwise have no money, then you may qualify for Medicaid, which is a government program that pays for certain medical services for certain people.
Some US hospitals are for profit, others are non-profit. US hospitals are required by law to provide services to anyone who has a health emergency regardless of their ability to pay. After they treat you, they will try to get you to pay. If they can't get you to pay, the hospital has to suffer the loss. So people with health insurance have to pay enough when they go to a hospital to fund the hospitals continuing operation. If not, the hospital will close since it can't pay its bills.
So ultimately U.S. citizens already pay for the health care through higher insurance premiums to pay for those who don't have insurance or through the taxes that fund Medicaid. So really the big difference between Europe and the US providing health care to the very sick is that the US system requires that the uninsured be driven into bankruptcy first or become so sick that the hospital can't turn them away.
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Why is healthcare in the US so expensive? Here is a good synopsis -
[url]http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/[/url] ([url]http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/[/url])
The bullet points are -
Insurance Companies are businesses
No electronic records
Perverse incentives
Malpractice madness
Statistics
Premium pricing in the ER
We're fat
We take more pills
No shopping across state lines
What do I owe
And lobbyists pouring big bucks into their political coffers
And party line ideologies (Libs vs. indep vs conservs)
And ignoring constituent voice
And too many regulations
And too many singular political beliefs pushing theirs on the masses
And block and tackle to resolve the real barriers to a robust, cost effective system (tort reform)
Just sayin.
Tort reform? Thirty-eight states already have some form of it in place, and my state is one of them. The price of my health care does not seem to be that much cheaper because of it, though. But we do seem to have attracted a lot of doctors. Of course, an individual can't sue their doctor for more than $750,000 if they do something wrong. Like chop off a leg wrong, if I understood it correctly.
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Doesn't sound like a good situation to me.
Its not perfect here in Australia by any means, but you don't have to be bankrupted if you get hit by a car by your medical bills.
The public hospitals provide all the emergency type care and extreme surgery such as transplants etc.
Private hospitals are more for having a baby, non emergency hospital stays and elective surgery like orthopedic type stuff.
If you have a non-critical operation you need eg knee surgery in the public system you will get it for free but have to wait a long time. If you have the money or your own private insurance you may only have to wait a couple of weeks and have it done at private hospital with the surgeon of your choice.
You can go to the GP for nothing if you go to a bulk billing clinic and wait but typically it would cost about $30 out of pocket after government rebate to go to GP. Prescription medications are subsidised by the government but they have to be on an approved list. If you have a health care card (for very low income earners etc.) its like $4 for a script.
The latest new drugs might not be on the list and you have to pay full price yourself.
Our taxes are higher than a lot of other countries and there is also GST tax of 10% on everything except healthcare,food and education.
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So if I travel overseas to Australia as a tourist, will I be covered temporarily under Australia's health care system? I'm thinking no, but thought I'd ask anyway.
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So if I travel overseas to Australia as a tourist, will I be covered temporarily under Australia's health care system? I'm thinking no, but thought I'd ask anyway.
Depends. Italy, UK and a few other countries do have reciprical arrangements but in general, no. You will need your own travel insurance (check major credit card inclusions - some are very good, but you generally have to pay for the travel on the CC).
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So if I travel overseas to Australia as a tourist, will I be covered temporarily under Australia's health care system? I'm thinking no, but thought I'd ask anyway.
I never hard that a tourist had to pay anything in my country if he needs to go to a hospital. At least more than a national citizen.
In fact a close family member of a HUGE American politician had an health problem when visiting my country, it was taken to a public hospital and got treatment. And it seemed to have been good treatment since that very important American politician thanked a lot for the care given to his relative. Never heard they were requested to paid for a thing or have they offered to pay for it, since he belongs to a party fiercely against any kind of social medicine...
Despite neither of them haver contributed to my country's Social Security system, I'm proud that she was taken care without hesitation and don't care if they used my taxes for it. It's a question of human rights.
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So if I travel overseas to Australia as a tourist, will I be covered temporarily under Australia's health care system? I'm thinking no, but thought I'd ask anyway.
I never hard that a tourist had to pay anything in my country if he needs to go to a hospital. At least more than a national citizen.
In fact a close family member of a HUGE American politician had an health problem when visiting my country, it was taken to a public hospital and got treatment. And it seemed to have been good treatment since that very important American politician thanked a lot for the care given to his relative. Never heard they were requested to paid for a thing or have they offered to pay for it, since he belongs to a party fiercely against any kind of social medicine...
Despite neither of them haver contributed to my country's Social Security system, I'm proud that she was taken care without hesitation and don't care if they used my taxes for it. It's a question of human rights.
What is your country XPTO?
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What is your country XPTO?
I'm in Portugal. And the politician I was mentioning was John McCain - the former rival of Obama in the last elections - and the relative was his mother.
And before people start pointing fingers to the pre-catastrophe economic situation of Portugal and mentioning the healthcare system as a source for the financial trouble I'll skip ahead and say that the healthcare system is far from being the main source of problems.
In fact the main expense of the State, and responsible for the debt that took us to ask for help of the IMF and UE, are the salaries of the public workers which account for over 70% of the expense, many of which are working in hundreds of useless foundations, redundant to each other, doing nothing just to employ friends, family and divert money from the state to the parties that are at the time in the government...
Or to heavily subsidize rich private schools with the excuse that in their area the offer in Public Education is not enough, so they can accept students from the public system there, when in fact many of these private schools are just a few hundred meters away from new and modern public schools... When you look at the owners of those private schools... they belong to the governmental parties...
Not to mention all the corruption, incompetence and nepotism associated with the two parties that alternate in the government, and the destruction of the economy, courtesy of the UE production quotas favoring richer countries.
And this is only the tip of the iceberg, but this is not an economy topic so I won't elongate.
Just to repeat that the National Healthcare System is the least of the problems, despite the new minister, until now the president of the biggest health insurance company in Portugal :o - isn't here a kind of conflict of interests (?), already started to try to dismantle the NHS.
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QWERTY above said it well for Australia. But if I could add that in general our public health system (Medicare) is all inclusive (not dental though unless you have a chronic condition, when dental is covered in some circumstances). There is a 1.5% salary levy, in reality an extra percentage on tax to help pay for it with some additional top up from general revenue.
The end result, as QWERTY outlined is that if someone falls over in the street with a heart attack or equally urgent condition then there is no issue of delay for treatment or the possibility that the citizen concerned has a sell-your-house moment or faces a bill of any kind. This is comforting. Most people down on their luck in this country are there through unfortunate circumstances. Of course there are people who simply will take all they can from other tax payers, but they really are in the minority.
Most here top up our cover with private health insurance. I get top private cover for around $250 per month. This is affordable for most people on the average wage or above.
The figures quoted above for the US boggles the mind. How do lower paid workers afford that type of cover if not covered by their employer, what about if a worker is retrenched – how do they get cover?
The issue of the million dollar treatment mention by some is a red herring. Sure, a very minimal number of such cases would occur, but the vast majority of individual treatment costs would not come near that.
Is it true that up until recently, a health insurance company in the US could refuse cover for pre-existing illnesses, put a cap on treatment, or refuse to reinsure someone who developed a chronic condition? If so, that such a wealthy country could allow that to happen is a disgrace. There are ways to provide a safety net health care system without bankrupting a country.
Most civilized developed countries are already doing it.
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Paulie Walnuts asked about tax. I can give the current bands for the UK:
Up to £7,475 no tax is paid (said to be increasing to £10,000)
Any portion of salary between £7,475 and £35,000 20% tax is paid
Any portion of salary between £35,000 and £150,000 40% tax
Any portion of salary over £150,000 50% tax (but the 50% band may be scrapped)
For clarity for anyone reading this who may not know, the above is true for Income Tax, but UK health care is funded from National Insurance, which is an 'extra' tax, also income related. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance)
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If I would have stayed in the government health insurance me and my wife (she is also working) would probably have to pay $1400 a month here in Germany. So I decided to go privately and we are down to around $900 together. But at least the coverage is pretty good. It is amazing how expensive insurance is if you are are self-employed.
We can of course throw out numbers like this - which ignores that health insurance amounts for government subsidiced insurance if you are employed is tied to the height of your income, so 1400$ for two may sound outrageously high, but it is at 15.5 percent out of your paycheck (I for instance pay about 150€ a month or 1800€ per year). Only "high earners-" who are employed, civic servants or self-employed have (to my knowledge) the option to shop for private insurance in Germany. Oh, and my health insurance payments are (partially) tax-deductible.
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So if I travel overseas to Australia as a tourist, will I be covered temporarily under Australia's health care system? I'm thinking no, but thought I'd ask anyway.
As said by someone else there are countries that have agreements with Australia. You look after our guys we'll look after yours. I think its safe to say that if your thinking of going to Australia to get some health care you would be able to get it already in your own country.
If you were in Australia as a tourist (from a country without the agreement) and fell ill they would accept you at the hospital and you would get a bill. I doubt they would stop you leaving the country. Anything that was anything like elective surgery you would have to pay upfront.
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"The issue of the million dollar treatment mention by some is a red herring. Sure, a very minimal number of such cases would occur, but the vast majority of individual treatment costs would not come near that."
Minimal? At the least, we are a nation of obese people, racking up treatments for diabetes, heart transplants, bypass surgeries. Smoking, cancers, AIDS.... It's easy to pile up the bills.
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Health care costs can add up very quickly in the US. Two years ago I broke my arm while snowboarding in Colorado. I underwent 5 hours of surgery, and spend 3 nights in the hospital. The total bills for that came to $112,000, not including the follow-up physical therapy. Quite ridiculous. Its easy to see how uninsured people in the US go bankrupt when they have medical problems.
"The issue of the million dollar treatment mention by some is a red herring. Sure, a very minimal number of such cases would occur, but the vast majority of individual treatment costs would not come near that."
Minimal? At the least, we are a nation of obese people, racking up treatments for diabetes, heart transplants, bypass surgeries. Smoking, cancers, AIDS.... It's easy to pile up the bills.
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"The issue of the million dollar treatment mention by some is a red herring. Sure, a very minimal number of such cases would occur, but the vast majority of individual treatment costs would not come near that."
Minimal? At the least, we are a nation of obese people, racking up treatments for diabetes, heart transplants, bypass surgeries. Smoking, cancers, AIDS.... It's easy to pile up the bills.
And unfortunately there are too many people here that would rather just take a pill for it than treat the root cause. A lot of those treatments could be made unnecessary if the patient would just lose weight, stop smoking, etc. Seeing how well our government is managing medicaid fraud, social security, welfare, etc. makes me very reluctant to let them start managing my health care.
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"The issue of the million dollar treatment mention by some is a red herring. Sure, a very minimal number of such cases would occur, but the vast majority of individual treatment costs would not come near that."
Minimal? At the least, we are a nation of obese people, racking up treatments for diabetes, heart transplants, bypass surgeries. Smoking, cancers, AIDS.... It's easy to pile up the bills.
And unfortunately there are too many people here that would rather just take a pill for it than treat the root cause. A lot of those treatments could be made unnecessary if the patient would just lose weight, stop smoking, etc. Seeing how well our government is managing medicaid fraud, social security, welfare, etc. makes me very reluctant to let them start managing my health care.
I'm with you on that.
It's rare to go a dr. here in the US that doesn't right off prescribe "medication" to take care of whatever ails you. For gosh sakes, they now prescribe medication if you have dry eyes, or if you don't have enough eyelashes. Somebody has to pay for those expensive pills.
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an excerpt from the documentary "Sicko"
Great movie. A real eye-opener.
I'd like to see that.
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Not enough eyelashes? Wow.
Who decides how many are not enough or too many?
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A question. In USA if you have no money and you get hit by a car and have a broken leg/pelvis what happens at the moment. Is there any safety net ?
Yes, care is free.
As I understand it, you won't be denied entry into an ER if you show up and need urgent care, but the hospital will definitely send you the bill afterwards.
So if you had no money they would take you to court and take your cardboard box you sleep in ? Or is there some budget allowed for cases like this built into everybody elses costs they pay.
Are all the hospitals privately owned and run for profit or are there like community ones or ones run by things like the church etc that are not for profit.
It will be transitioned to Medicade, which is the free insurance for the poor.
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an excerpt from the documentary "Sicko"
Great movie. A real eye-opener.
I'd like to see that.
Hope you don't have too many eyelashes or you'll not be able to see it !
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Don't forget you can get excellent health care at private hospitals in Asia, Singapore, Malaysia, India at 25-30% of the costs in the US. A friend had his gall bladder removed in a private hospital in state of Washington, was in hospital for 4 nights, his bills came to a whopping 40K (mostly of tests/use of medical equipment fee, hospital stay, medicine, doctors fees were actually a small part of the 40K (he was self insured then). He kicked and screamed and threatened and they brought it down to 25K which was what they would charge someone if the insurance co was paying for the same surgery. (yes, the sad truth is hospitals do charge you more if you are uninsured or self insured unless you threaten to go to the media, and 50% of personal bankruptcy in the US is due to run away medical bills). My sister in Asia had the her gall bladder removed and it costs her $3500 USD and she had excellent surgeon/care and more nurses per bed!!
US health care system is broken, costs are absolutely spiraling out of the control. $1000 per month just for health insurance for a family of 3-4 is going to be done at the expense of taking care of other basic needs, paying mortgages, eating healthy, taking a vacation to relax and rejuvenate from time to time. Basic medial care should be a basic right that a nation provide for its citizen. I would pay a little more taxes in the US if there is free basic health care. What good does it do even if you can deduct your medical expenses (and only after you exceeded the 6.5% AGI floor) because you will be broke anyway.
I am self employed and used to buy health insurance until they increased my payment 15-30% each year, at times 2x a year or at every renewal. The company's excuse was health care costs are going up every year and we try to keep the increase as little as possible, blah blah but we have no choice, BS really. I am very healthy, fit, but that did not matter. I got fed up with the "high way robbery of my money" that I decided I will self insure!! or if I can fly when i am sick, I will have my surgery in Asia. (I do have a small medical coverage with my auto insurance). I set aside some emergency funds and focus on being and staying healthy. It is not the ideal situation but I simply hate being "robbed"
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its really shameful what is going on in the us health care system.
I had to goto the ER one time and remember seeing $44 as part of the bill for two aspirins.
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I pay 8 % of my salary in medical related taxes. In return my children and I have gotten millions of dollars worth of free care:
-regular check-ups during pregnancy
-one week in hospital during the first birth
-one year paid maternity leave (100% of the normal salary) for each child, and heavily sudsidized kindergarten after those years.
-helicopter ride to another hospital, and intensive care and loads of invesitagions for more than a week after the second birth (including EEG and MR).
-free hearing aids and other top shelf medical equipment, regular checkups and 40 weeks of free sign language training with full salary
-free physiotherapy over several years due to pregnancy and birth related injuries
Yes, we have got oil. But we also have 70 % of the population working and paying taxes: http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/06/arbeid_en/ (http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/06/arbeid_en/)
The high employment level is why we can afford good medical care, and the good medical care is why so many are able to work.
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Yes, we have got oil. But we also have 70 % of the population working and paying taxes: [url]http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/06/arbeid_en/[/url] ([url]http://www.ssb.no/english/subjects/06/arbeid_en/[/url])
The high employment level is why we can afford good medical care, and the good medical care is why so many are able to work.
No, it's because you have oil. Norway's GDP per capita almost exactly tracks the price of oil and that's why it has gone stratospheric over the last ten years. In 2008 Norway's oil output was worth nearly $23B. With a population of under 5M it was almost $5K for every man, woman and child in the country. That's nearly $20K for a family of 4 before they've even got out of bed. Of course you have fantastic healthcare.
It's not how many people you have employed anyway, it's what they do and how much they earn. For example Thailand has a population of 60M and unemployment is now so low it is virtually unmeasurable. Unfortunately they remain a very poor country because most of them are either scratching around in fields or stuck in low-paying factories making cheap goods for the West. They have a little natural gas but alas they are not floating around on a sea of oil.
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I guess you haven't seen how we are spending the oil money. It all goes into a "pension fund" for when the oil runs out. We now have 2920 billions NOK in the bank, own parts of London, and are buying parts of Paris. But very little of this goes to my wallet, I still have to work and pay (a lot of) taxes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norway)
Of course the export of crude oil is extremely important, but it is only part of the puzzle. If you look at the export/import calculations, you will see that we almost break even without oil. We are very large exporters of fish and fish products, electricity and goods that require a lot of energy to produce, and have a population filled with well educated people that travel the world but still send home tax money (e.g. oil engineers ;) ).
Unlike other oil producing countries we are making sure that the income reaches shore, it doesn't go directly to the big companies like in Nigeria etc. This gives us room to build a supporting industry. One example: Shell was forced to land the gas in Norway, before sending it in pipes to England. This generated almost 1000 jobs at the landing site, and many times that number in the surrounding region (food industry, cleaning, IT, secondary engineering contracts etc.).
The US is also a gigantic oil producing country, why aren't they in a better financial situation if this only boils down to liters of oil/capita? They also have a lot of other natural resources, and unlike Norway it is possible to grow food there, they shouldn't have to import it.
We spend a lot on the welfare system, and make it difficult for people to become rich. Like you Swedes say; we are the last of the communist states. The US of A consider the individual to be more important than the masses. That is a fair choice, but it doesn't provide equal health care for everyone.
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The US is also a gigantic oil producing country, why aren't they in a better financial situation if this only boils down to liters of oil/capita? They also have a lot of other natural resources, and unlike Norway it is possible to grow food there, they shouldn't have to import it.
Off the top of my head the US produces about 2.5x more oil than Norway ... but it's population is about 70x greater. In comparison that's a drop in the ocean (and even then you're making a comparison with the richest country on Earth). As you say Norway has invested it's oil wealth very wisely over several decades and is indeed reaping the benefit of that too. I wouldn't disagree that Norway's oil industry generates lots of jobs either. It just confirms my point that Norway's sudden rise to riches is derived almost entirely from oil ... not because they've managed to get their unemployment down as you suggest. Of course having a vast income from oil also makes 'job creation' in the public sector easy and affordable too ... so hardly surprising that Norway has low unemployment.
You don't get rich from fish (at the national level) either otherwise both Norway and Iceland would have been very rich countries when I was a boy. They weren't. They both had highly rural economies, frankly not much better than Thailand has today.
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I know this will stir up a hornets nest but I can't help myself sorry.
I'm sure Norway's miltary bill per person is a little bit smaller than the US.
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Why is healthcare in the US so expensive? Here is a good synopsis -
[url]http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/[/url] ([url]http://moneyland.time.com/2010/02/25/why-is-health-care-so-expensive-let-us-count-the-conspirators/[/url])
The bullet points are -
Insurance Companies are businesses
No electronic records
Perverse incentives
Malpractice madness
Statistics
Premium pricing in the ER
We're fat
We take more pills
No shopping across state lines
What do I owe
And lobbyists pouring big bucks into their political coffers
And party line ideologies (Libs vs. indep vs conservs)
And ignoring constituent voice
And too many regulations
And too many singular political beliefs pushing theirs on the masses
And block and tackle to resolve the real barriers to a robust, cost effective system (tort reform)
Just sayin.
Tort reform? Thirty-eight states already have some form of it in place, and my state is one of them. The price of my health care does not seem to be that much cheaper because of it, though. But we do seem to have attracted a lot of doctors. Of course, an individual can't sue their doctor for more than $750,000 if they do something wrong. Like chop off a leg wrong, if I understood it correctly.
all that your are pointing out is that there is no real tort reform. THERE IS NO TORT REFORM going on. This 38 state thing you mention is a fantasy. There MUST be congressional tort reform.
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an excerpt from the documentary "Sicko"
Great movie. A real eye-opener.
I'd like to see that.
Watched Sicko last night...eye-opener, for sure. I had heard that drug companies give doctors bonuses for writing more and more prescriptions, but I did not know the HMOs give the doctors bonuses for rejecting requests for treatment, thus saving the HMO money. Never mind that patients are dying. That's pretty disturbing. By the end of the movie, I was thinking of moving to Canada. :(
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By the end of the movie, I was thinking of moving to Canada. :(
Seriously. We've thought the same thing. Doesn't look like the US will ever get our act together as far as healthcare goes. Nobody trusts the gov't to run it, and the insurance companies are robbing us blind.
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At the risk of straying back on topic....
Seeing as I'm still traveling, I use travel insurance as my health insurance. Happily it also covers loss and accidental damage to camera gear, travel delays etc. Judging by some of the comments here, at just under $1K per year its not such a bad deal!
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We use Samaritan Ministries http://www.samaritanministries.org/ (http://www.samaritanministries.org/) While it is not for everyone it works well for us! I have free healthcare with my family doctor which helps a lot. Samaritan covers the rest for our needs. Cost is $320.00 per month for all four of us. Like I said it won't be for everyone but works well for us. You have to fit the mold here which a lot of people won't or choose not too. If interested let me know as I think I can get a referral bonus.
I worked in healthcare for 15 years in Radiology and Radiation Therapy. The main problem with insurance is co-insurance, you can find a cheap plan but you will pay at least 30 percent out of your own pocket which easily goes into the thousands couple that with a high deductible and bam you are broke. If you have no insurance you will easy get 50% off all your bills, at least I have. I just tell them I am self-pay and let my health sharing take care of the rest which covers everything over $300.00. Obama care is not all bad but the whole system is so corrupt I don't know how this will all play out. I could tell you a lot of true stories!
Take care of your health, exercise, eat right and drink lots of water. Find a plan that covers your needs but no more. Have enough savings. Use a HSA if you are able. Be smart about what you need by researching. All hospitals do not charge the same. Ask for a discount before your procedure not after! Be polite and firm.
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At the risk of straying back on topic....
Seeing as I'm still traveling, I use travel insurance as my health insurance. Happily it also covers loss and accidental damage to camera gear, travel delays etc. Judging by some of the comments here, at just under $1K per year its not such a bad deal!
Travel insurance is essential but it a bit different to health insurance in your resident country, with the travel insurance policies i've had before they'll cover getting ill going to the hospital abroad etc. but they're not going to treat you long term for cancer or something like that. They'll fly you back to your home country and that's it. Its great for accidents, short term illness etc and like you say you get other cover.
I've heard a story of an Australian being seriously ill in Asia and the insurance company chartered a plane to get the person to Perth (closest city in Australia) for them to be treated. I'm sure it was the best thing for the person but the insurance company didn't do it for that reason. When they got back to Australia the insurance company was no longer responsible for their care. It was cheaper to charter the medical evacuation than have them in hospital in Singapore for months on end.
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^^. and immediately covered by our universal Medicare, as Holgs would be if medivaced home to AU. Not sure what would happen if a USAin was medivaced back to the US if the person was a photographer working independently and did not have private and, seemingly, very expensive medical insurance.
Interesting discussion. The US is a great country, and they have done wonderful things that have benefitted the wider world. But on some things it is way behind the eight ball,a safety net type health coverage system in particular. And let's not even touch on gun control, and export of McDonalds et al.
An opinion only, from someone who has a lot of affection for the US and it's people.
Ken