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Author Topic: best match shake 13/07/11  (Read 23251 times)

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lisafx

« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2011, 12:57 »
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I think Best Match is just that for the designers who spend there money at Istockphoto.

LOL!!  Yeah, that's why the "Buyers Bail" thread is at 55 pages now.  Filled with quotes from happy buyers who are finding all the great stock they want at awesome low prices!  WooYAY!!!!!!


RacePhoto

« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2011, 13:05 »
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I think Best Match is just that for the designers who spend there money at Istockphoto.

LOL!!  Yeah, that's why the "Buyers Bail" thread is at 55 pages now.  Filled with quotes from happy buyers who are finding all the great stock they want at awesome low prices!  WooYAY!!!!!!

Normally I would blow off the, Best Match issues and sales are falling, complaints and whining. It's never ending, so like rain, no one notices another few more drops here and there.

Well it's official now. I haven't had a download on IS in 30 days!

Small collection or not, I've never had a dry spell for that long. Considering I've had the same pictures and at least some monthly downloads for years, I can only guess, that I don't exist and I just haven't realized it yet, or sales have fallen off a cliff! (calling all Lemmings) Not one CrapStock shot sold in a month? Impossible!

Wait, when Mostphotos passes IS, we'll all know it's the end of the world!  ;D (is it 2012 yet?)

lisafx

« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2011, 13:09 »
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Normally I would blow off the, Best Match issues and sales are falling, complaints and whining. It's never ending, so like rain, no one notices another few more drops here and there.

Well it's official now. I haven't had a download on IS in 30 days!

Small collection or not, I've never had a dry spell for that long. Considering I've had the same pictures and at least some monthly downloads for years, I can only guess, that I don't exist and I just haven't realized it yet, or sales have fallen off a cliff! (calling all Lemmings) Not one CrapStock shot sold in a month? Impossible!

Wait, when Mostphotos passes IS, we'll all know it's the end of the world!  ;D (is it 2012 yet?)

LOL!  This is so typical.  Dismiss the complaints of others as whining until the same thing happens to you.  Then it is a real problem.   ::)

Shank_ali

    This user is banned.
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2011, 13:26 »
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you "seem" to know a lot LOL best match is used for what % of buyers/designers??
42%

« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2011, 14:30 »
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you "seem" to know a lot LOL best match is used for what % of buyers/designers??
42%

LOL if so eheh we dont need to worry about best match.. thats nothing  ;D

« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2011, 14:48 »
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'Can we please drop the fiction that best match has ANYTHING to do with what buyers want?'

Actually, I think the relevancy factor does a pretty good job of showing what other buyers were happy with.  Within that, the mix of collections is what it is.

« Reply #56 on: July 13, 2011, 15:12 »
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'Can we please drop the fiction that best match has ANYTHING to do with what buyers want?'

Actually, I think the relevancy factor does a pretty good job of showing what other buyers were happy with.  Within that, the mix of collections is what it is.

For a long time a lot of searches were dominated by zero-sale vetta/agency images. I'm not sure you can say buyers were happy with stuff they never bought thereby justifying P1 display.

On the other hand, in the individual collections where there is some sales volume, yes, they are ordered with significant weight given to their historic sales performance.

lagereek

« Reply #57 on: July 13, 2011, 15:40 »
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This best match, is better then the last one, I agree to that but its not what it used to be. However come on fellas, I mean lets be honest, any best match change is done in the hope of generating more revenue or else, whats the point?

True, most of these zero Vettas, etc, are gone, just wondering what they were doing there in the first place? Anyway Ive got nothing against Vettas up front, good selling tool but only if they are commercially the best.

 Recon they are going to keep tweaking this I just hope they dont keep tweaking us over the edge, as before.

« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2011, 15:49 »
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Best Match is very relevent for the buyers and Istock as a business.We(contributors) have no say or control over any change.Off course we notice and comment on that change,especially if the sales wane, but i have never noticed any ill effect on my beautiful crafted imagery.
Think posative and some content might surface that you forgot about...Cream always rises.

Master baiter.

lisafx

« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2011, 15:59 »
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'Can we please drop the fiction that best match has ANYTHING to do with what buyers want?'

Actually, I think the relevancy factor does a pretty good job of showing what other buyers were happy with.  Within that, the mix of collections is what it is.

Indeed it is what it is - an unqualified disaster.  If they had left it strictly at relevancy, without monkeying around with the various collection placements, I have no doubt it would have been great. 

RacePhoto

« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2011, 16:17 »
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Normally I would blow off the, Best Match issues and sales are falling, complaints and whining. It's never ending, so like rain, no one notices another few more drops here and there.

Well it's official now. I haven't had a download on IS in 30 days!

Small collection or not, I've never had a dry spell for that long. Considering I've had the same pictures and at least some monthly downloads for years, I can only guess, that I don't exist and I just haven't realized it yet, or sales have fallen off a cliff! (calling all Lemmings) Not one CrapStock shot sold in a month? Impossible!

Wait, when Mostphotos passes IS, we'll all know it's the end of the world!  ;D (is it 2012 yet?)

LOL!  This is so typical.  Dismiss the complaints of others as whining until the same thing happens to you.  Then it is a real problem.   ::)

Not really, I'm admitting that I finally see the results of the complaint, and before I didn't always see anything.

If you want an example, read messages going back for four years about how the best match has screwed sales and everything is wrong. It gets a little boring to see people crying and wringing their hands for month after month and year after year, with nothing changing.

So I'm admitting, for the first time, I saw a change!  ;D

When the new improved (pick a version, I think they all kind of suck) best match changed before and it hadn't even been implemented, people saw a change. People see a change based on the phases of the Moon or what color shirt the newscaster is wearing. A little less voodoo and more science would be nice. And of course now that I've said that, I suppose a flood of sales that were missing from reporting will suddenly appear and I'll be wrong about that too?  ::)

Until then I'll stick to my theory that the best match changes all the time. Sometimes older photos get moved to the front. Another day/hour/minutes or location, and new photos get pushed to the front. Sometimes best sellers go forward and others, most views get a heavier weighting. It's always changing, so people like us, can't game the system and try to jam our images up in the front of the searches.

As for my own, I don't know why a search would make a difference, I still don't know why anyone buys anything I have up on IS. Well maybe that one picture, but the rest is "isolated on black" or things I found around the office. When I do come up with something good, IS rejects it for EXIF date doesn't match the editorial image, or lighting/color balance, when it's spot on. If that's what they want, CrapStock, that's what they get. So I can't complain about sales, when anything is appreciated.

ps, SS has been doing fine and now passed IS again. Supposed to be slow July and SS has jumped ahead. Two months ago SS was dying. If I had an answer I'd do something about it, but it appears that "stuff happens" and the IS trends are unpredictable.

'Can we please drop the fiction that best match has ANYTHING to do with what buyers want?'

Yeah, better said in many less words. I'm not sure that best match does anything and CV seems to be good for some people, while it's in outer space for others. I haven't decided because sometimes my subjects just don't exist in ISCV. ;)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2011, 16:22 by RacePhoto »

Shank_ali

    This user is banned.
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2011, 16:30 »
0
Best Match is very relevent for the buyers and Istock as a business.We(contributors) have no say or control over any change.Off course we notice and comment on that change,especially if the sales wane, but i have never noticed any ill effect on my beautiful crafted imagery.
Think posative and some content might surface that you forgot about...Cream always rises.

Master baiter.
I use to call one of our teachers that..Mr Bates.I had to squint to read your reply  :D

« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2011, 16:31 »
0
'Can we please drop the fiction that best match has ANYTHING to do with what buyers want?'

Actually, I think the relevancy factor does a pretty good job of showing what other buyers were happy with.  Within that, the mix of collections is what it is.

Indeed it is what it is - an unqualified disaster.  If they had left it strictly at relevancy, without monkeying around with the various collection placements, I have no doubt it would have been great. 

I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with displaying a mix of all collections.  Anyhow, the pricing filter makes it a non-issue.

lisafx

« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2011, 16:41 »
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I dunno, I don't think there's anything wrong with displaying a mix of all collections.  Anyhow, the pricing filter makes it a non-issue.

Well, clearly it is still an issue.  With people reporting halved or stalled sales overnight, most buyers are apparently still using default sorting.  

AFAIK the debate wasn't whether there should or shouldn't be XYZ collection on the front page.  It's about whether the best match is directed at what serves buyers best, vs. lining Getty's pockets.  

Are you saying you really don't think maximizing revenues plays a part in the best match?  That it is ENTIRELY geared toward buyers needs with no other motivation?  Because that was Shank's position, and that was what I was responding to.  When you start to agree with Shank it's time to take a look at where you logic broke down ;)

« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2011, 16:47 »
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Are you saying you really don't think maximizing revenues plays a part in the best match?  That it is ENTIRELY geared toward buyers needs with no other motivation?  Because that was Shank's position, and that was what I was responding to.  When you start to agree with Shank it's time to take a look at where you logic broke down ;)

Well, we all know he's on acid, lol.

No, I think you've got a mix of strict relevancy (previous buyer interest, plus downloads, etc.) and the interest ( agency, and consequently, contributor) in display of various collections (pricing levels).

RacePhoto

« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2011, 17:10 »
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Try this for size: (Nov 2006) and it's never stopped since.  :D

Yesterday was my worst Thursday for a long time. I was wondering why, and made a Best Match search on penguins. Normally the best match search will show one of my penguins on the 3third or so place. But now they moved to the second page.
What happend? What I discovered, that all the images which are ranked before my images are images from exclusive Photographers. Is it a coincidence or did they really changed the best match search in favor of the exclusiv Photographers?

lagereek

« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2011, 23:54 »
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Are you saying you really don't think maximizing revenues plays a part in the best match?  That it is ENTIRELY geared toward buyers needs with no other motivation?  Because that was Shank's position, and that was what I was responding to.  When you start to agree with Shank it's time to take a look at where you logic broke down ;)

Well, we all know he's on acid, lol.

No, I think you've got a mix of strict relevancy (previous buyer interest, plus downloads, etc.) and the interest ( agency, and consequently, contributor) in display of various collections (pricing levels).


Pricing filter?  beginning of last week, a buyer mail me on my private mail, wanting 2 files, high-res, mechanic with jet-engine and aircraft being serviced on ground. This buyer has bought from me before, in 2009, so he is an old buyer. This time he cant see the files and he isnt even aware of this pricing filter, third time this happens.
We did business, I sent him the high-res files.

I think we can assume this price-filter is used by just a few buyers, its messy and with all collections, sliders, etc, its even more messy, especially for the majority who just quickly wants to find a pic.

CarlssonInc

« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2011, 01:20 »
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The mix seems really weird this morning and for the first time I took the time to write it down to get an even better sense.

I sell a lot of sexy high heel shoes (I blame it on my wife, she always adds to her collection) so my search was for "high heels" photos only, full range of prices, best match and 200 images on the page. The breakdown was as follows:

Vetta: 144 images / 72%
Regular: 25 / 12.5%
Agency: 23 / 11.5%
Exclusive+: 8 / 4%

I had one image on the first page, a Vetta. About 18-24 months ago I was dominating this search which has now gradually decreased to today's 1, on a subject that I most likely sell the most of anyone in the world... Let's just say that I'm not pleased.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 01:31 by CarlssonInc. Stock Imagery Production »

« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2011, 06:13 »
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72% of the first page of any search from what I believe to be  1-2% of the collection is incredible.
All the searches look a strange mix and personally I'm looking to be dead in the water this week.
Every time it seems to be settling back to something like "normal" they change it again.
The whole thing really needs sorting so that buyers don't find it a complete turn off and disappear completely before it's too late. (How often has this been said now?)
The price filter is a welcome addition, but not if they are going to completely fill the unfiltered results with their preferred content, presumably to make up for the people who are using the filter.

lagereek

« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2011, 06:41 »
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Hi Dave!  how goes.

As it happens this best match aint too bad but I still think its a lost cause Dave. No matter what they do, it wont help, it seems. Im not sure its a best match problem anymore, I think the plain truth is, they simply dont have the traffic like in the "old" days.
The differance of the IS today and the one we knew is just astronomical. Other agencies are taking the driving seats, I mean at SS, I just have one EL upon another, almost every day.

You have a nice port Dave! we have known each other for some time now, my advice is, you need to look around, look at some of the other main 3 agencies, and some of the others etc. I know its tough, being exclusive and all that goes with it, but its gone sour. The price-filter?  well, sounds nice, looks nice but thats just about all.

Yesterdays best match change looked OK, but only for a short time, then the tweaking started and soon it was all lost, yet again. This is unfortunately what you are going to have to live with.

all the best Dave ( Im still a non smoker, thanks to you, really) and congrats to the Diamond.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 07:31 by lagereek »

« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2011, 07:33 »
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Well whenever you raise the price you lose customers. That is a completely predictable, normal market behaviour.

By creating a best match that in the first 200 images (or first three pages) had a dominance of files that were 20-50 times more expensive than the regular collection it was clear that customers will go elsewhere to fill their needs. On top of that the artistic vetta images, although fascinating and inspiring are not generic (thats what gives them their edgy appeal) and so will not be sold in large volume.

Shutterstock has overtaken istock, dreamstime is probably next. Traffic on istock has dropped in equal proportion.

But is istock as a company making less money?

Because of the very high prices they can probably afford to lose very large number of buyers. And they also pay the contributors less than on the normal collection.

Maybe some of you remember my comparison with the coffee and wine producers. It is possible that although we as contributors, especially the "coffe producers" (generic, high volume images) are losing out, istock is making so much more money with their "wine producers" (artistic, edgy and expensive) that it worth shifting istock towards this more specialized market.

best match gives you a crystalclear direction of the buyer groups they are targeting.  If expensive files dominate, they have decided to focus on a much smaller market. Losing customers then isnt a problem for the agency, just for us (coffee). Wine producers will rejoice and istock will probably become the center for the more edgy, artistic type of artists.

I still hope they find a better balance, but maybe it is financially not worth it to focus on both buyer groups. Getty has other, cheaper agencies (photos.com, thinkstock) that can target the buyers of generic, high volume images. My sales at the partner collections are going up, which is the result of aggressive marketing and a dedicated sales team.

Since I have images on getty, istock and the partner agencies it can still work out for me as a "coffee producer". I just have to look at the bigger picture, not just istock. However guidance from HQ how to best target image production and which customer groups are being catered to by the different agencies and collections would be very, very helpful. If they want us to work with the "big picture", then please let us know.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 07:39 by cobalt »

lagereek

« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2011, 07:48 »
0
Well whenever you raise the price you lose customers. That is a completely predictable, normal market behaviour.

By creating a best match that in the first 200 images (or first three pages) had a dominance of files that were 20-50 times more expensive than the regular collection it was clear that customers will go elsewhere to fill their needs. On top of that the artistic vetta images, although fascinating and inspiring are not generic (thats what gives them their edgy appeal) and so will not be sold in large volume.

Shutterstock has overtaken istock, dreamstime is probably next. Traffic on istock has dropped in equal proportion.

But is istock as a company making less money?

Because of the very high prices they can probably afford to lose very large number of buyers. And they also pay the contributors less than on the normal collection.

Maybe some of you remember my comparison with the coffee and wine producers. It is possible that although we as contributors, especially the "coffe producers" (generic, high volume images) are losing out, istock is making so much more money with their "wine producers" (artistic, edgy and expensive) that it worth shifting istock towards this more specialized market.

best match gives you a crystalclear direction of the buyer groups they are targeting.  If expensive files dominate, they have decided to focus on a much smaller market. Losing customers then isnt a problem for the agency, just for us (coffee). Wine producers will rejoice and istock will probably become the center for the more edgy, artistic type of artists.

I still hope they find a better balance, but maybe it is financially not worth it to focus on both buyer groups. Getty has other, cheaper agencies (photos.com, thinkstock) that can target the buyers of generic, high volume images. My sales at the partner collections are going up, which is the result of aggressive marketing and a dedicated sales team.

Since I have images on getty, istock and the partner agencies it can still work out for me as a "coffee producer". I just have to look at the bigger picture, not just istock. However guidance from HQ how to best target image production and which customer groups are being catered to by the different agencies and collections would be very, very helpful. If they want us to work with the "big picture", then please let us know.

Good and valid points!

Weather or not they are making less or more money is ofcourse for us mortals, unimportant since we dont see any of it. Maybe the top 50 see it all, I dont know but if ordinary Diamonds like myself are suffering, then its no good is it?

I dont think they have any option but to gear their business towards the high end, etc, since they have wrecked all other avenues of lets say ordinary buyers, funny policy indeed, I must say, but you might be right on this one.

Losing buyers AND contributors, can not be a clever strategy, no matter who you are, look at SAAB, GM, etc.

best.

« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2011, 08:05 »
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Photographers/Creative artists are a dime a dozen. We create digital products that can be sold worldwide at lightspeed.

They can source artists from all over the world and with istocks excellent feedback system/forums/Lypses they will always have enough creative talent to find the few gems they need who will become contributors for the high end collections and getty. istock is an excellent talent scout. I know, Ive received fantastic feedback and I will always be grateful.

I think what I am trying to say, that hopefully things are not as bleak for exclusives or "coffee artists" like me. But my income will become  spread over several sites, not just istock.

I sincerly hope what is happening is part of a careful strategy.

My worst nightmare is that there is some internal power struggle with different people pulling directions to different buyer groups. Or best match changes that come from panic and bad predictions. Somebody has to be clearly in charge of the "big picture". You cant have different parts of a company work independently from each other or even fight each other. You need clear leadership to keep everyone focussed, every employee, contributor, even the cleaning staff need to know their place and what their role is. Ideally they should absoluetly love what they do and be so passionate about it that you have to force them to take a break or a holiday.

A company is not a democracy, it needs benovelent dictatorship and good communication. Think of Apple Computer. Or a well oiled machine.

At the moment many contributors are confused and frustrated and probably quite a few buyers as well. So this machine isnt working at optimal performance. And it needs more than just an oil change.

By the way, one major disadvantage of focussing on a small buyer group, is that it becomes a lot easier for your competition to take the market away from you....
« Last Edit: July 14, 2011, 08:11 by cobalt »

SNP

  • Canadian Photographer
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2011, 08:57 »
0
Photographers/Creative artists are a dime a dozen. We create digital products that can be sold worldwide at lightspeed.

They can source artists from all over the world and with istocks excellent feedback system/forums/Lypses they will always have enough creative talent to find the few gems they need who will become contributors for the high end collections and getty. istock is an excellent talent scout. I know, Ive received fantastic feedback and I will always be grateful.

I think what I am trying to say, that hopefully things are not as bleak for exclusives or "coffee artists" like me. But my income will become  spread over several sites, not just istock.

I sincerly hope what is happening is part of a careful strategy.

My worst nightmare is that there is some internal power struggle with different people pulling directions to different buyer groups. Or best match changes that come from panic and bad predictions. Somebody has to be clearly in charge of the "big picture". You cant have different parts of a company work independently from each other or even fight each other. You need clear leadership to keep everyone focussed, every employee, contributor, even the cleaning staff need to know their place and what their role is. Ideally they should absoluetly love what they do and be so passionate about it that you have to force them to take a break or a holiday.

A company is not a democracy, it needs benovelent dictatorship and good communication. Think of Apple Computer. Or a well oiled machine.

At the moment many contributors are confused and frustrated and probably quite a few buyers as well. So this machine isnt working at optimal performance. And it needs more than just an oil change.

By the way, one major disadvantage of focussing on a small buyer group, is that it becomes a lot easier for your competition to take the market away from you....

what a great post...very good summary of the way I feel too. particularly agree with your 'benevolent democracy' comment...my only surprise with your post is that you contribute to the PP....would you mind extrapolating on why you think the PP is a safe venture? has always seemed that the PP will become mandatory to me, since so many contributors have opted out, and they want our content in their sub sites one way or the other....what do you see happening in the industry when they inevitably take the option away?

lagereek

« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2011, 09:27 »
0
I tell you whats happening in the industry. Why do you think us RM photographers within the Getty -RM, was more or less forced to sign away our material to RF and micro? or get out.

IS has always been a thorn in the side of Getty, was a strong site until Getty came along. Within a year from now, IS, will be incorporated in TS,  thats whats happening.


 

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