Author Topic: Another plane crash again. RIP MH17... (Read 44844 times)

wordplanet · « **Reply #25 on:** July 20, 2014, 11:10 »

According to news reports, the Russian rebels shot down a civilian jet from Malaysia killing about 300 people from all over the world including 80 children - a horrible tragedy - my heart goes out to all of them and their friends and families - and yet this thread devolves into a USA-bashing thread.

One of my great uncles spent 4 years in a VA hospital 4 hours from his wife and daughter (who he didn't even have a chance to know until she was 6) after he was shot twice in WWII. He fought to defend his country (the USA) as well as to defend freedom in Europe and having discussed it with him many times (he lived to be 89) I can assure you that we did not enter the war because the good guys were winning.

I love my country despite its faults however, I recognize we are far from always right, but trying to make the US out to be the bad guys in WWII or in this Malaysian Air tragedy is simply absurd. I try to avoid politics on this forum but I couldn't let this gratuitous US-bashing go.

Netherspite · « **Reply #26 on:** July 20, 2014, 11:24 »

This thread is not an US-bashing thread.
More like Russia-bashing thread.

And americans aren't bad guys in this tragedy. Nor russians nor ukrainians are.
It is the result of dirty politics game and this is the most sad part of it.

robhainer · « **Reply #27 on:** July 20, 2014, 12:58 »

Quote from: Netherspite on July 20, 2014, 05:32

US joined the WWII on the winning side only after it became pretty obvious which side is winning.
So this example is not valid.

Anyway, I don't see how that picture above can become incorrect due to the "help" argument.

That is such bull. It can't even come close to being supported by the facts. The outcome of the war in Europe was even in doubt until after the D-Day invasion in 1944. Where did you learn history?

robhainer · « **Reply #28 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:08 »

Quote from: Niakris on July 19, 2014, 12:44

Let me guess, those "independent" sources are actually dependent on US/Ukraine?

Just think about the motivations and the truth will get obvious.
Imagine you're US government and want to build "evil" image of Russia to justify introducing more sanctions against it (because EU doesn't want to support you).
What would you do? May be just tell Ukraine to shoot some civil plane at the conflict area, make up some fake call audio confirming your words and claim that rebels did it.
This way EU will get scared of the "russian threat" and will agree to introduce more sanctions, etc. This way you will have your hands free to do whatever you like in the conflict region because the whole world will see it as a counter-terrorist actions.
Now this makes sense.

Modern world really needs some critical thinking instead of blindly believing to the propaganda and biased news.

===

Please lets stop arguing about who did this, the most important thing is that this is an awful tragedy and we all hope that such things will never happen again.

This is just full of typical Russian propaganda. The missile was launched from an area controlled by Russian separatists. Fact. It could only have come from them or the Russian military itself.

Putin is exactly like Hitler. He's a tyrant who refuses to give up power. He refuses to give his citizens freedom of speech and a free, independent press.

My one hope is that this episode will bring such crippling sanctions that old-style Soviet breadlines return until the people wake up and remove him from office.

Netherspite · « **Reply #29 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:33 »

I've seen examples of russian propaganda and this is not even close to it.
This is unbiased PoV based on the facts and critical thinking. If you think about it you will understand that this is the only version that makes sense.
All other versions presented by news (both russian and anti-russian) are so obviously stupid... I'm really surprised someone believes them.
There are no news sources in the world giving the truth. Russian news are full with russian propaganda. Western news are full with anti-russian propaganda.
If you really believe that western news sources are unbiased and true that's sad.

robhainer · « **Reply #30 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:36 »

Western news media has a hell of a lot more credibility because it's independent and not controlled by the government. You can keep your head in the sand all you want, but denying that the missile wasn't shot by Russian-proxies or the Russian military is just not believable.

Saying Ukraine shot it down to get the rest of the world angry at Russia is just the dumbest thing I've heard. Nobody seriously believes that. Our own satellite imagery says that's not true, and those aren't biased.

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion isn't about politics. It's about justice, and who is going to pay for the murders of the people on that flight.

bunhill · « **Reply #31 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:37 »

Quote from: robhainer on July 20, 2014, 13:08

The missile was launched from an area controlled by Russian separatists. Fact.

Maybe true. Perhaps true. Perhaps even probably true. But where is the actual evidence ? This speculation and vitriol is stupid. Especially on a stock photo discussion site.

If much of that country feels itself to be Russian then surely it would make sense for the Russian parts to be allowed to join Russia. In the spirit of compromise. But what do I know. I just want people to get on. It's a pity they don't have a ceasefire in the region and bring in outside bodies who everyone can trust.

Quote from: robhainer on July 20, 2014, 12:58

The outcome of the war in Europe was even in doubt until after the D-Day invasion in 1944. Where did you learn history?

D-Day was a remarkable achievement and we should be very grateful to our parents and grandparents for fighting against the Axis.

It is also worth remembering that nearly 9 million Soviet soldiers died defeating the Axis Powers vs less than 500,000 US. Stalingrad was the turning point according to many historians.

Netherspite · « **Reply #32 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:39 »

Quote

Western news media has a hell of a lot more credibility because it's independent and not controlled by the government. You can keep your head in the sand all you want, but denying that the missile wasn't shot by Russian-proxies or the Russian military is just not believable.

Saying Ukraine shot it down to get the rest of the world angry at Russia is just the dumbest thing I've heard. Nobody seriously believes that. Our own satellite imagery says that's not true, and those aren't biased.

Claiming that russian rebels shot that plane is the thing that is not believable.
Name a single benefit Russia has from shooting civil plane down? Do you think they are just idiots who like to kill civilians? Never heard anything as insane.

Quote

As far as I'm concerned, this discussion isn't about politics. It's about justice, and who is going to pay for the murders of the people on that flight.

I'd really like to see guilty persons to pay for these murders.
I'd also like to see those who bomb civilians in cities on rebel-controlled territory to pay for the murders they did.
However, I doubt it will happen

robhainer · « **Reply #33 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:46 »

It's not a claim. It's a fact.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/18/smoking-guns-russian-separatists-shot-down-malaysian-plane/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/missile-downs-malaysia-airlines-plane-over-ukraine-killing-298-kiev-blames-rebels/2014/07/18/d30205c8-0e4a-11e4-8c9a-923ecc0c7d23_story.html

Netherspite · « **Reply #34 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:51 »

Since when a bunch of indirect proofs can be called evidence and serve as an absolute proof of guilt?
It is pretty easy to make up all of mentioned information.

robhainer · « **Reply #35 on:** July 20, 2014, 13:54 »

Videos, photos and audio recordings aren't indirect. They are direct proof.

Netherspite · « **Reply #36 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:00 »

So we have a video of some missile launch, audio of two russian-speaking persons talking and photos.
We all seen old (6+ months old) photos being used as newly shot ones and claims that they are from the Ukraine while they were from the completely different place. How can we be sure this is not the case again?
And that audio... Seriously, give me 10 minutes and I'll record similar audio.
The only possible motivation behind that awful tragedy is the motivation to make up "evil" Russia image in the eyes of the world. Name a single other motivation that would make sense. There are none.
And if you have resources and power of the US government you won't hesitate to make up all these indirect proofs in few hours.

robhainer · « **Reply #37 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:08 »

Well, how about the fact that the Russian separatists and those backing them are so stupid and incompetent that they can't tell the difference between a civilian airliner and a Ukraine military aircraft?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/mh17-kerry-evidence-ukrainian-separatists

What makes them "evil" is that they won't admit it and atone for it while looting the bodies of the dead for credit cards and refusing investigators access to the site.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-russia-victims-ukraine

You know, you have to do something really bad to piss off a Dutch person. I didn't even think it was possible.

Netherspite · « **Reply #38 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:26 »

So you keep providing links to the news with unproven information.
Please give a single motivation for the russian rebels to shoot down a civil plane. Noone would do such horrific action without a strong motivation.

robhainer · « **Reply #39 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:29 »

Their motivation was that they thought it was a Ukrainian plane. They said as much in the recordings, and their leaders posted in celebration right after they shot it down, until they realized it wasn't a Ukrainian plane.

Netherspite · « **Reply #40 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:32 »

In that case they would admit it. No point in denying it if you did it by accidence since it only worsens your guilt.

robhainer · « **Reply #41 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:39 »

Quote from: Netherspite on July 20, 2014, 14:32

In that case they would admit it. No point in denying it if you did it by accidence since it only worsens your guilt.

And yet, that's what they're doing because they are thugs and terrorists. They think they can cause enough question about it by moving the missile systems and denying that people will never know for sure, which will let Russia continue to support them by giving them "plausible deniability."

robhainer · « **Reply #42 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:45 »

Quote from: bunhill on July 20, 2014, 13:37

Quote from: robhainer on July 20, 2014, 13:08
The missile was launched from an area controlled by Russian separatists. Fact.

If much of that country feels itself to be Russian then surely it would make sense for the Russian parts to be allowed to join Russia. In the spirit of compromise. But what do I know. I just want people to get on. It's a pity they don't have a ceasefire in the region and bring in outside bodies who everyone can trust.

There are more than 3 million Russians living in the U.S., more than that part of Ukraine. Should we carve off a state and give it to Putin? Maybe give Alaska back?

Netherspite · « **Reply #43 on:** July 20, 2014, 14:53 »

Quote

There are more than 3 million Russians living in the U.S., more than that part of Ukraine. Should we carve off a state and give it to Putin? Maybe give Alaska back?

[irony]Well, annexing Kosovo off Serbia was completely OK in the eyes of the US. So why not annex some state off the US for the sake of national independence?[/irony]

robhainer · « **Reply #44 on:** July 20, 2014, 15:09 »

Another false equivalence. The U.S. didn't annex Kosovo, nor did it have any interest in doing so. The only interest was in protecting people in Kosovo from being slaughtered by a leader who has been convicted of ethnic cleansing.

That's not the case in Ukraine. Those rebels exist only because Putin is using them to carve off some more land for himself while controlling Ukraine. They're proxy soldiers, not freedom fighters. They're little more than a fig leaf to make it look like Putin hasn't invaded.

Netherspite · « **Reply #45 on:** July 20, 2014, 15:13 »

Another blatant lie.
Have you ever been in the place of conflicts to judge who is victim and who is aggressor?
I have friends living in different parts of Ukraine.
And those who live at Eastern Ukraine are saying that ukrainian air forces are bombing the civilians in their houses in the cities at the Eastern Ukraine.
I don't see a reason to believe they're liars. It is their homes and their lives, and they are scared.

Regarding Kosovo, you can ask serbians about how many of them was killed by albanians in Kosovo and who was performing ethnic cleansing there.

robhainer · « **Reply #46 on:** July 20, 2014, 15:58 »

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/383076/Slobodan-Milosevic

robhainer · « **Reply #47 on:** July 20, 2014, 16:00 »

Quote from: Netherspite on July 20, 2014, 15:13

Another blatant lie.
Have you ever been in the place of conflicts to judge who is victim and who is aggressor?
I have friends living in different parts of Ukraine.
And those who live at Eastern Ukraine are saying that ukrainian air forces are bombing the civilians in their houses in the cities at the Eastern Ukraine.
I don't see a reason to believe they're liars. It is their homes and their lives, and they are scared.

Regarding Kosovo, you can ask serbians about how many of them was killed by albanians in Kosovo and who was performing ethnic cleansing there.

All of which goes to the hands of Putin, whose soldiers and equipment are supporting so called "rebels" in Ukraine.

Netherspite · « **Reply #48 on:** July 20, 2014, 16:15 »

There would not be any rebels if new ukrainian nazi government wouldn't try to suppress ethnic minorities and revoke their rights.
So all of this goes to the hands of the new ukrainian government and those who inspired the revolution.

Quote

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/383076/Slobodan-Milosevic

A quote from the article:
"During 1998 the long-standing dispute between Serbia and the ethnic Albanians of Kosovo deteriorated rapidly into open armed conflict between federal security forces and the guerrilla Kosovo Liberation Army, which had begun killing Serbian policemen and politicians."

so the albanians started killing serbian policemen and politicians and you call serbians aggressors ?

robhainer · « **Reply #49 on:** July 20, 2014, 16:21 »

Nazi, so passe. All they want is to have closer relations with the rest of Europe. Are all the other European governments *? That's what you're saying.

The current government of Ukraine was freely elected, and if any ethnic Russians were prevented from voting it was because the rebels blocked off voting stations.

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Author Topic: Another plane crash again. RIP MH17... (Read 44844 times)

wordplanet

Netherspite

robhainer

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

bunhill

Netherspite

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

robhainer

Netherspite

robhainer

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