Author Topic: GO Greece! (Read 101231 times)

gcrook · « **Reply #325 on:** July 05, 2015, 18:21 »

Quote

The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!

I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.

Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!

Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!

My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.

You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.

CatTheCat · « **Reply #326 on:** July 05, 2015, 18:53 »

Why are the countries whose citizens live worse than the Greeks, that pay more taxes than the Greeks and retire later that the Greeks be in solidarity with the Greeks who vote in a government that blatantly flirts with a Russia that is a direct threat to safety of some of these countries?
Syriza won in Greece. And it has a mandate to govern in Greece. Not the money of European taxpayers and the EU.

Zero Talent · « **Reply #327 on:** July 05, 2015, 19:11 »

Quote from: gcrook on July 05, 2015, 18:21

Quote

The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!

I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.

Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!

Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!

My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.

You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.

And that belief is your biggest problem!
Your belief illustrates very well what's wrong in Greece!

Leftist central planners, like Tsipras, try to govern by substituting politics and myths for entrepreneurial judgment and true economics.

They play referendum and other political games, while missing the whole purpose of individual action, competition and efficiency in free markets.
Their politics fool people in believing that no change is needed from within, because it's always somebody else's fault.

That's politics, indeed. These irresponsible politics, with no link to the real economy, are the root cause of all bubbles and crises.
And today's Greece is the perfect example.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

gcrook · « **Reply #328 on:** July 05, 2015, 19:19 »

Quote from: CatTheCat on July 05, 2015, 18:53

Why are the countries whose citizens live worse than the Greeks, that pay more taxes than the Greeks and retire later that the Greeks be in solidarity with the Greeks who vote in a government that blatantly flirts with a Russia that is a direct threat to safety of some of these countries?
Syriza won in Greece. And it has a mandate to govern in Greece. Not the money of European taxpayers and the EU.

I consider your questions honest but sadly you are typing a long sentence with 4 different ans contradictory things mixed in and conveniently oversimplified at that, and seriously who can discuss like this without making this thread an irrelevant twitter feed?

There are countries who live better that Greece as well and corruption comes in all forms which point does this prove?if we disccuss the Eurozone Greece's bubble bursted harder that Portugals for example (and for different reasons) ,and for reasons i explained vaguely in my earlier post,and that burst made more noise that any other country in the Eurozone.
Spain's bubble for example was the housing loans and in Greece it was the public sector.
Spain is a huge economy unlike Greece and there was as much corruption there like in Greece and like in Germany if i may say so (siemens,dirty money by bribing governments) .Christoforakos is a wanted fugitive in Greece sheltered by germany who refuses to extradite him to Greece to save siemens some face as well as the political system of germany (and huge public outrage) .

The other thing about Russia.If you dont understand basic politics and why a politician has to create a "media event" by staging bargains and negotiations with other countries then i cant help you with that.If it wasn't Russia but brasil would it make a difference?Yes it would because apparently Russia has struck a sensitive chord in your mind.Maybe thats what Tsipras was going for and i cant help it ,as much as i loathe him, but to recognise this clever bargaining move.

The last sentence makes no sense whatsoever.Do you understand what is happening at all and who is giving loans to whom,for what exactly,where do these go,and what is the catch 22 of the whole situation?Do you really understand where the European constitution begins and ends, and to WHOM does the judiciary and the executive power of each country belong ?You are so oblivious as to what is happening and yet you feel like you need to follow the curve and bash a country to which you have no attachment and knowledge of its happenings because the whole eurozone fracas scares you personally?

I see people in this thread shouting "The Greeks steal my money" .

I can understand that but that doesnt mean that people aren't directly and wholly responsible for being ignorant,and in this thread they try to pass this as logical and wide known facts.
Goddamnit i feel like defending a government which i dont like ONE BIT (but for different reasons that most people here) .

gcrook · « **Reply #329 on:** July 05, 2015, 19:30 »

Quote from: Zero Talent on July 05, 2015, 19:11

Quote from: gcrook on July 05, 2015, 18:21
Quote

The economic theory is not a religion you have to believe in, but a science.
And your belief that there is something beyond the obvious, only understood by some "Illuminati", is the real fallacy!
And it's not hilarious, since so many are fooled by it! Fooled by the illusion that wealth will fall from the sky, after an "oxi" vote, in some referendum!

I'll continue to keep it simple for you: what EU wants you to do, is for you to go first to a photography class, before lending you more money to buy even more fancy cameras and lenses.

Simple again: there is nothing wrong to borrow money when you have a sound business plan and your s**t in order. Money lending with interest is the very engine that pushed mankind forward.
I have a mortgage nobody forced me to take. I'm paying my debts every month as I agreed to do, when I signed my contract.
Same goes for Germany at the macro level. Get it? Simple economics!

Countries DO default. Obviously, it doesn't mean the Greeks will be fired from Greece, but rather that Greece will be fired from the international trade as untrustworthy. And believe me, this means that, one way or another, as history proves, Greece will have to adjust. It looks like Greeks have chosen the hard way out!

My only hope is that EU will stay strong, continuing to refuse to fall for Tsipras' bluff, and throw my money into the Greek chaos.

You oversimplify things like loan/debt etc by stripping the economy apart from the driving force that validates its authority ans existence and that force is politics and not the scientific truth in economics,because there is no scientific truth in economics.
Haven't heard that one i bet.
And that belief is your biggest problem!
Your belief illustrates very well what's wrong in Greece!

Leftist central planners, like Tsipras, try to govern by substituting politcs for entrepreneurial judgment and true economics.

They play referendum games, while missing the whole purpose of individual action, competition and efficiency in free markets.
Their politics fool people in believing that no change is needed from within,
because it's always somebody else's fault.

That's politics, indeed. And this has nothing to do with a healthy triving economy. These irresponsible politics are the root cause of all bubbles and crisis. And todays Greece is the perfect example.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

Yes apparently everything is pretty clear in your mind.
Politics destroy the free market who knows whom to reward and whom to condemn.Physical laws is all the economy is,but the politicians came and ruined this simple cause/effect balance sciense perfect system thingy.
You can live and thrive in this existensial crisis (funny that you are the theologist here and you are totally oblivious),and i hope the best to you.
Just bear in mind that one day you might wake up and open a book (which i find unlikely) and realize that the market that you are evangelizing
as being diluted by leftists and communists is the best you are going to get because if im not mistaken the western world is being ruled by liberals during the last 40 years with the same
ideas as you.

40 years these poor men had to implement their ideas and they get sabotaged all the time by socialists and leftists thats why this model isnt working to its full potential.
And Greece is the last communistic/capitalistic country i suppose and tsipras has put a veto to its reforms so that we will never join the rest of the western world and insted bring you all down with us?
Seriously what else am i going to witness in this thread as undisputed truth....

CatTheCat · « **Reply #330 on:** July 05, 2015, 19:42 »

The money does not only come from Germany.
For example, 2 millions are from Portugal.

"to recognise this clever bargaining move." That's the problem. It's only about moves. We don't see him doing anything anyway.

And Varoufakis moves are about taking pictures all smiling and sexy with his wife for a VIP magazine and playing the hero on his twitter account.

Look at him. He acts like he still is at the high school classes.

I was expecting this government would do a real change. For months, what measures have they implemented to combat corruption, tax evasion, to increase tax revenue, to lower public expenses?

fritz · « **Reply #331 on:** July 05, 2015, 20:02 »

gcrook · « **Reply #332 on:** July 05, 2015, 20:07 »

Quote from: CatTheCat on July 05, 2015, 19:42

The money does not only come from Germany.
For example, 2 millions are from Portugal.

"to recognise this clever bargaining move." That's the problem. It's only about moves. We don't see him doing anything anyway.

And Varoufakis moves are about taking pictures all smiling and sexy with his wife for a VIP magazine and playing the hero on his twitter account.

Look at him. He acts like he still is at the high school classes.

I was expecting this government would do a real change. For months, what measures have they implemented to combat corruption, tax evasion, to increase tax revenue, to lower public expenses?

What you should be asking ist why is it getting loans who pays for them who collects interest and what does it mean for other countries?
Varoufakis is a narcissist alright and with a self imposed "cool teacher" style but aesthetic criteria do not belong in a political discussion because seriously look at that druncard clown Juncker who is making appearances in Eurogroups drunk out of his mind while behaving like a moron and slapping everyone thinking eurogroups are a hotel party.
Whom would you trust?
Exactly,this is irrelevant.

I was too expecting the government to do a real change too,but that is not the point of this conversation because these changes have nothing to do with the point in discussion here.They have to do with me my friends and my family but not you -directly- .
Spain is making reforms by kicking elderly people out of their houses,giving them to the banks,and obligating them to pay the rest of the loans as well,it could just as well do a top down payment cut to create this logistics positive surplus that is the goal in this tight corset that is the monetary policy of the Eurozone, and noone would have given a * if they called this socialism communism or Darth vader politics.But misanthropic policies such as these are seen as "reforms" as we have witnessed here.I rest my case.

Greece's internal affairs have nothing to do with the whole economical conundrum the rest is germany's ethical talks to dress the fact that austerity policies happen to bad boys.Again i am waiting for the day where merkel will have to convince germany's middle class that they were lazy as the Greeks and lived above their capacity.

CatTheCat · « **Reply #333 on:** July 05, 2015, 20:42 »

Quote

Greece's internal affairs have nothing to do with the whole economical conundrum

IMHO you are wrong, because if Greece does not become sustainable, it will ask for more and more money. They ask for debt restructuring because obviously they can't pay for it. Greece had already an haircut on 2012. And they will always remember the german debts from the world war II. If Greece leave the eurozone, which I hope not, it will be worse. Don't even expect IMF to loan more money to the country since Greece didn't repay them on June 30.

It's like if the portuguese would expect debt forgiveness from France because of the napoleonic invasions.

If Greece had already implemented significant changes, that would make the country sustainable, another debt restructuring could be expected, but without measures, it sounds like they will ask for it every 3 years because the debt will not stop increasing.

I am not defending the financial system here, I despise it. That's why I believe the countries need to be sustainable for themself, to be free from it.

gcrook · « **Reply #334 on:** July 05, 2015, 21:33 »

Quote from: CatTheCat on July 05, 2015, 20:42

Quote
Greece's internal affairs have nothing to do with the whole economical conundrum

IMHO you are wrong, because if Greece does not become sustainable, it will ask for more and more money. They ask for debt restructuring because obviously they can't pay for it. Greece had already an haircut on 2012. And they will always remember the german debts from the world war II. If Greece leave the eurozone, which I hope not, it will be worse. Don't even expect IMF to loan more money to the country since Greece didn't repay them on June 30.

It's like if the portuguese would expect debt forgiveness from France because of the napoleonic invasions.

If Greece had already implemented significant changes, that would make the country sustainable, another debt restructuring could be expected, but without measures, it sounds like they will ask for it every 3 years because the debt will not stop increasing.

I am not defending the financial system here, I despise it. That's why I believe the countries need to be sustainable for themself, to be free from it.

Again everything is mixed up here.You despise the financial system but dont understand it at all.Including very basic politics.You said in an earlier post that people of Europe should vote now if they accept the Greek referendum vote results.Thats was cute but hillariously out of context.You dont even understand how democratic countries work and what are the limits and rules of the Eurozone as a constitution and the limits of executive and legislative powers in one's country,and yet you negotiate this political situation in this thread without the basic tools like most people here who unlike you at least are so certain of their ideas,and logical conclusions disregarding the fact the in other places their ideas would be laughable at best.Then i guess im stupid for posting here,but thats my error which i will correct after that post.

Look,noone can and will pay for it's debt never, never ever.The debt is irrelevant (unless ones political system is stupid enough to make others use it as a leverage against it like papandreou in Greece who suicided politically dragging the political system along with him)
Thats why every country in the Eurozone has started whistling indifferently about its debt (coming from various bubbles,loans,banks,public debt etc etc) and succumbed to the primary surplus rule (struggling its economies to an extend) because that way everyone has in a sense stated that sometime in the near future he will start repaying its debt,which he wont.Argentina btw payed imf in full like some Asian countries,Turkey included, but they had their own currency and are different situations to the point that i cant analyze this here.

So every country has a big debt (germany's debt is HUGE if you look at the public hospitals debt alone) i have mentioned this in earlier posts but if you dont understand what any of this means im sorry,you can continue this discussion with your peers where everything is prertty much justified in a logical manner.I have explained a whole lot including why Greece in 2011 jumped in the $hit and how Papandreou decided to pay the public debt like a moron while everyone else was whistling (and rightly so) and why Greece has to repay the the IMF (a price a few economies can pay) .Thats why it is forced to get loans not to support its economy but to repay its debt,that shouldnt have been repayed in the first place.If Papandreou hadnt done this we would be in the same boat as Portugal actually even better.

When that moron Papandreou introduced IMF, germany was horrified.Then why did they agree you ask since they knew that this would struggle Greece and force the Eurozone to start loaning Greece's debt?I mean it would make them look like Darth Vaders if they were to start this trend (thankfully noone followed but there was pressures nonetheless).
And thats where the big question that everyone should ask is.But this is a mixture of politics and economy,and most people here dont want to do that.Their fantacies about the world dont consider this kind of talk relevant,and sadly this community here is not a place for such talk.A guy a few posts ago considers the economy a science,which is nothing more that an empirical
social science (science coming last) .

Well scr#w that i have better things to do than typing 5000 words every time.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #335 on:** July 05, 2015, 21:45 »

Quote from: gcrook on July 05, 2015, 19:30

Politics destroy the free market who knows whom to reward and whom to condemn.

sure, like all the banks and institutions that should have gone bankrupt in 2008 but they've been bailed out with hundreds of billions of $ as they were "too big to fail" as it would have crushed the whole house of cards.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #336 on:** July 05, 2015, 21:50 »

Quote from: Semmick Photo on July 05, 2015, 16:07

Oh yeah: They gave the middle finger alright, now lets see if they are willing to deal with the consequences. See if it is all the better standing on their own feet.

they will print an alternative currency, Varoufakis talked about a sort of "IOU".

but what really matters is what Russia is going to do now, will they bail out Greece or not ?

and by the way, as Greece is a Nato member, can the Nato members allow one of their occupied territories to become a third world country overnight ?

of course not, and you can bet in one way or another greece will be bailed out, no matter if with Euros or Dollars.

there's no way for greece to end up like Lybia or Haiti, the EU and Nato will have to find a fix, if they don't Russia is already at the gates.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #337 on:** July 05, 2015, 22:07 »

Quote from: gcrook on July 05, 2015, 21:33

So every country has a big debt

again ?

even Japan is full of debts .. yes ... but with itself !
their only risk is the eventual devaluation of the Yen, which already happened anyway.

it's the ECB printing money for the EU and for each EU country, they can print 1000 trillions tomorrow if they need to, the Euro will lose some value over time but that's that, as no modern currency is backed by gold anymore, it's paper and bits into a cental bank computer, its inherent value lasts just as long as somebody is willing to accept it as a trading currency.

greece printing IOU or new Drachmas or silver coins follows the same logic, they can flood the country overnight with trillions of new money and the greeks will have no other choice than use it as a de facto new currency, no matter if it's going to be worth sh-it in over time, all they need is for Russia to accept it as a serious currency and to exchange Rubles with it.

Argentina is still using their new Pesos which nobody wants and yet they're still alive despite the mess going on after their default.

show me one single country that went down the drain because of a too high debt, even Zimbabwe is still there and now is in bed with China.

moral of the story, greece will suffer but won't become a failed state anytime soon.
it's the EU that now has a hot potato and no easy way out.

the whole eastern europe have been taken into the EU sphere in the 90s after the fall of the USSR, nobody wondered if their books were genuine or cooked of if they could ever repay all the loans, it was a political decision and now it's too late to cry, what's done is done, it was a risky investment and there's nothing strange if an investment turns into a loss .. if you think greece is in bad shape then what about Poland or Romania ?

KnowYourOnions · « **Reply #338 on:** July 06, 2015, 01:10 »

BREAKING NEWS
Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis resigns despite referendum no vote

“Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted ‘partners’, for my… ‘absence’ from its meetings,” he wrote.
The prime minister Alexis Tsipras judged this to be “potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the ministry of finance today”.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns-despite-referendum-no-vote?CMP=fb_gu

(this thread has no end...)

StockPhotosArt.com · « **Reply #339 on:** July 06, 2015, 02:29 »

This is how well informed people are about the countries in financial crisis and how good their press is. Defamation, stereotypes and publication of the convenient truths.

http://www.businessinsider.com/yanis-varoufakis-middle-finger-controversy-real-fake-bohmermann-jauch-2015-3

"Even though Varoufakis has strongly denied the allegations, most people believed — and continue to believe — the footage is real."

ferdinand · « **Reply #340 on:** July 06, 2015, 02:37 »

...Wolfgang Schäuble should resign now and show some goodwill...

Titus Livius · « **Reply #341 on:** July 06, 2015, 03:48 »

some interesting stuff on Varoufakis personal blog :

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/

Difydave · « **Reply #342 on:** July 06, 2015, 04:42 »

Is it only me who doesn't really care what Greece or for that matter the EU does or doesn't do. It's up to them how they run things. I just don't want to be dragged into it.
As far as I can see, the EU is a failed, left wing body of failed, left wing idealists. Who just happen to have made themselves very wealthy and powerful as individuals in the process of screwing Europe up.
The "Common Market" was a good idea, but once the people in charge obtained too much power, and it became the EU it always was a disaster waiting to happen for all of us in Europe.
And yes, I'm from the UK. Someone earlier in this thread said we're smug. We could be if we were sat outside.
I'm also aware that this is a simplistic view. There again simple answers are usually the best ones.

fritz · « **Reply #343 on:** July 06, 2015, 05:16 »

Le Pen and Faradje cheering for the 'no' vote in Greece!

" After the first estimates of the outcome of the referendum in Greece, the leaders of nationalist parties of France and Britain were quick to celebrate. "The EU plan dies. It is fantastic to see the courage of the Greek people against the political and economic bullying from Brussels, "he wrote on his personal twitter account Faradje the nationalist British UKIP party. On the same wavelength as head of the National Front in France, Marine Le Pen wrote on twitter that: "The victory of" no "in Greek referendum is a victory of the people against the European oligarchy. It is a "no" freedom, revolution against European terms they want to impose their single currency at all costs, despite the most inhumane and counterproductive austerity. "

sharpshot · « **Reply #344 on:** July 06, 2015, 05:30 »

They seem to forget that the vast majority of Greeks want to stay in the EU. I hope they can stay in the EU but I can't see how they can keep the Euro.

Titus Livius · « **Reply #345 on:** July 06, 2015, 07:47 »

Quote from: fritz on July 06, 2015, 05:16

"The EU plan dies.

that's not the problem, currencies come and go.

but Nato is here to stay and there's no way to exit, once you're in it's forever.
and Greece cannot join russia's custom union as long as she's a Nato member.

best scenario is Greece signing further new deals with russia for oil/gas pipelines, but that's it.
very lucrative, but not enough to feed the whole country with it.

robhainer · « **Reply #346 on:** July 06, 2015, 08:23 »

Quote from: Titus Livius on July 06, 2015, 07:47

Quote from: fritz on July 06, 2015, 05:16
"The EU plan dies.

that's not the problem, currencies come and go.

but Nato is here to stay and there's no way to exit, once you're in it's forever.
and Greece cannot join russia's custom union as long as she's a Nato member.

best scenario is Greece signing further new deals with russia for oil/gas pipelines, but that's it.
very lucrative, but not enough to feed the whole country with it.

France left NATO for something like 40 years. It can be done. It would give Greece less say in the defense of Europe, but it could do it.

On the topic, it seems to me that the whole experiment of a joint currency was a bad idea from the start. How can a nation and people have sovereignty over an economy without being able to control the nation's currency? It's just not possible. At the same time, I don't understand how Greeks can expect to receive a loan without making the systemic changes to pay it back. Do they really want a loan or just a gift of money from other nations? Even if it were a gift without systemic changes, it would only be a matter of time before the Greeks stood at the EU street corner with their hands out again.

The only solution is for the Greeks to stand alone with their own currency so that they can live with their choices.

cobalt · « **Reply #347 on:** July 06, 2015, 08:46 »

The guardian and CNN have a lively discussions and comments with people from all over the world.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/06/news/economy/greece-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/index.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/06/greek-referendum-eu-leaders-call-crisis-meeting-as-bailout-rejected-live-updates#comments

so have others,

LeMonde or the New York Times.

The wallstreetjournal has an interesting theory that V was sacked because he revealed too much of Syrizas transition plans.After all they have been campaigning that the referendum is not about the euro, the banks would open again tuesday and that they would have a deal in 48 hours....etc...

But in an interview with the Telegraph sunday evening V revealed they had already been discussing IOU´s like California as a transition currency. This would mean a first step towards the drachme, without announcing their plans to the people who want to keep the euro. And of course they can blame it all on the horrible terrorist Europeans who won´t let them continue take money without guarantees.

http://www.chaniapost.eu/2015/07/06/was-it-the-daily-telegraphs-report-that-led-to-varoufakis-resignation/

Anyway, we will never know what really happened. He got his fame and stardom and is off to happy future and lots of money for his talks and books. Whatever happens now, he is no longer connected to it. But after such a resounding No victory, it is strange that Tsirpas would kick him out to please the criminal creditors. More likely they did it for internal reasons.

Maybe Greece will now choose a finance minister who has a track record of being a successful negotiator who can achieve results. But of course that is only possible if they want to stay in the euro which is very unlikely.

However, they could have brought in a professional many months ago and finished up with a deal long before the deadline.

And of course the banks will be closed for a while. But who needs banks to party?

CatTheCat · « **Reply #348 on:** July 06, 2015, 08:57 »

Quote

Look,noone can and will pay for it's debt never, never ever.

Tell me, which country in the eurozone is not paying their tranches, other than Greece.
Our former prime minister Jose Socrates (2005-2011), who loved to create new constructions projects everywhere in Portugal, said he learned that a country debt was not to repay, but to manage. In 2011, his finance minister called for troija behind Socrates back because this one was in constant denial and didn't want to assume the debt was out of control. He managed badly the debt. He didn't care at all.
Now he is in prison, suspected of passive corruption.

We are here to discuss opinions, you don't need to accuse me of ignorance or anything, just because my ideas doesn't match yours.

fujiko · « **Reply #349 on:** July 06, 2015, 09:38 »

In the present times, money is debt and debt is money.
Money is printed out of thin air for loans but the catch is that the interest is not printed.
For the cycle to continue new loans must create new money to cover the past loans' interests.
The economic cycles produced by periods of loan restrictions are there just to cash out getting what really matters on the hands of the creditors. Resources, infrastructures, anything that is not fake money printed out of thin air.
In the long run, the world can't pay all loans and be at 0 debt, never. Maybe the world can pay all the debt or maybe pay all the interests on that debt but paying both is not an option. It's mathematically impossible because the money to pay the debt + interest does not exist.

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