I'd like to help, David.
I've emailed you.

The edited, modified, version was mistakenly posted here.
The original one is significantly different at point 3.

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
Shutterstock is a business, and we work for them. Like any other business, they can let us go at any time, for any reason. Try running your mouth at a regular office job like some people did in the forums and I don't think you'd be surprised to get fired from that job immediately.

We don't work for Shutterstock as employees.
Shutterstock sells our photos for us, and in that sense they act more as an agency than an employee.
It's a business relationship.
In business relationships, respect comes from both ends.

Quote from: gbalex on June 01, 2009, 18:50
It is starting to feel like we are in kindergarten.  How do you educate those who want to live and do business in a fantasy world.  You can fight reality all you want, it will not change the facts that businesses are required to operate under.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/5090593/G20-summit-Sun-setting-on-tax-havens.html

If you don't understand that royalties you earn on your images can be taxed by the country in which that income arises, then I suggest finding other sources of income.

From the article you referenced:

What defines a haven, the OECD explains, is not a competitive tax rate but "a refusal to provide information to foreign tax authorities".

Tax evasion and Tax avoidance / minimization are two very separate things.
Many companies maintain a complex corporate structure across multiple countries to arrive at the most efficient tax structure.  This is fully legal and reported to all relevant authorities.  They are located in specific countries to take advantage of tax structures (and in some cases to avoid stupid taxes), not to evade tax by cheating the governments.  Companies that do not do this, perhaps because top management lacks sufficient financial expertise and fails to engage the proper experts are at a disadvantage; they are the ones in a "fantasy world".

Also, I think the behavior of SS's CEO is disappointing. I always thought SS had it's act together. Now I'm not sure.

  Talanis, you're right. oops.

Borg, you're also right. The current version has been cleaned up to make the CEO look more like a CEO and less like a teenage bully.

Original version (thanks to a poster on the SS forums who quoted the original in a reply):

1) This is a US government regulation. What would you like us to do about it? Go to jail? Go out of business? We are sorry - but we can't just move the company out of the US or creating another company somewhere else to pay you. That is called tax evasion. These are laws. We can't change the laws. We have 60 employees in NYC - they aren't going anywhere.

2) If you follow the rules you won't be double taxed. Your country has rules that we follow every day also. You may need to do a bit of work here, but we will help you out with them. You will have a chance to get your ITIN before we start following regulations and witholding.

3) If you don't want to deal with this, then leave. We are happy to remove all your images for you. If I continue to read threads on the forum that you will be taking your images elsewhere, I will delete them myself and close your account. I've done it a few times already- I am not kidding about this.

4) Online petition claiming we are taxing you? Why would we be taxing you? Again, this is the US government. We are just following the law.

5) Want to change your avatar to something obnoxious? Again, I will personally delete your profile, images, etc. You are just creating more work for us.

6) If you think other microstock companies are except from paying tax, think again. It's a matter of time before they start following the law also.

7) Why don't US citizens have to deal with this? Because we already have their W9 forms. Don't worry - they dealt with it also.

Welcome to doing business internationally. We will all make money together - but we have to follow the rules.

9) We will answer every single question you have - but you have to give us time to get to them.

The CEO rant, recorded for posterity, in case it's removed from SS forums:


Okay.

1) This is a US government regulation. What would you like us to do about it? Go to jail? Go out of business? We are sorry - but we can't just move the company out of the US or creating another company somewhere else to pay you. That is called tax evasion. These are laws. We can't change the laws. We have 60 employees in NYC - they aren't going anywhere.

2) If you follow the rules you won't be double taxed. Your country has rules that we follow every day also. You may need to do a bit of work here, but we will help you out with them. You will have a chance to get your ITIN before we start following regulations and witholding.

3) If I continue to read threads on the forum that you will be taking your images elsewhere, I will delete them myself and close your account.

4) Online petition claiming we are taxing you? Why would we be taxing you? Again, this is the US government. We are just following the law.

5) Want to change your avatar to something obnoxious? Again, I will personally delete your profile, images, etc. You are just creating more work for us.

6) If you think other microstock companies are except from paying tax, think again. It's a matter of time before they start following the law also.

7) Why don't US citizens have to deal with this? Because we already have their W9 forms. Don't worry - they dealt with it also.

Welcome to doing business internationally. We will all make money together - but we have to follow the rules.

9) We will answer every single question you have - but you have to give us time to get to them.

Jon Oringer
Founder/CEO
Shutterstock Images LLC

Mom ?

Quote from: Norebbo on May 28, 2009, 16:15
Like what? Moving the company to Canada? That would be unbelievably difficult and expensive.

He doesn't have to move his operations in entirety.
The company I work for maintains offices in multiple countries, including one in Dubai, specifically for tax reasons.
It takes a bit of effort, and he needs to hire to appropriate experts, but it can be done, and might be the best longterm option.

He has options.
The question is whether he wants to take the effort to implement them (i'm not saying they're easy options) or just ram everything down contributors throats and hope they don't choke too much.

Quote from: Talanis on May 28, 2009, 14:51

Quote from: sjlocke on May 28, 2009, 14:20
Very rude.

Quite rude indeed. It's funny though... the Title say Calm down and he doesn't sound like a calm guy at all while writing this PoS post. I can't believe a chairman of a big company like SS gives an obnoxiously rude answer like that to the very people who allows him to make money and tun his business. He needs a serious kick in the butt or  a good slap on the face IMO. That's what my mom would have given me if I had answer someone like this.

I'm not a big fan of IS, but I can't quite imagine IS top management shouting down to contributors like that.
Is he trying to intimidate people into keeping quiet?

"I would suggest getting those papers in order because it is only a matter of time before the other sites do the same.  It isn't as big a job as it appears."

Fotolia and Dreamstime are in Europe; Istock is in Canada.

Shutterstock can easily remedy the situation by incorporating in another country and processing payments through there.  Dreamstime and Fotolia are incorporated in Europe and contributors there will never face this problem.

I will leave Shutterstock not so much because I have to pay taxes, but because it is  a situation that Shutterstock could avoid if it chooses to do so. I hope they take the actions to solve this problem.

For those of us affected, this effectively cuts commissions by 30%
so we are earning

17 cents per download
through
26 cents at the highest level

I have signed the petition and will be removing my portfolio the moment they force me to pay US tax.

Quote from: lisafx on May 25, 2009, 14:32
Why Fotolia would do this.  Perhaps they don't believe there will be any risk to their reputation? 

...they have a reputation? When did this happen?
Do you mean positive reputation?

I think they took advantage of the fact that nobody really cares about bigstock.
If this had happened on one of the bigger sites, everyone would be up in arms.

I think this is a fantastic idea, both from a technical and business perspective.

While concepts are still at an early stage, I think this is has enormous potential and could really revolutionize distribution of intellectual products.

I'm having ftp problems too.

Also, the new upload limit is a pain. I'm at just below the unlimited requirement of 92%, so I can only submit 50.  50 a day might not be bad, but it's not 50 a day. It's 50 in the upload queue, so I have to check every day until the queue is cleared. It's annoying.

Overall I'm wondering if it's worth it to continue with bigstock, which only makes up about 3% of my microstock income.  It used to be easy and simple to submit, so it wasn't a problem.  Now that I have to go out of my way and add extra steps to my workflow, combined with technical problems. It doesn't seem worth it anymore.

Can someone please explain to me exactly why it's so ridiculous to express dissatisfaction at a proposed 35% commission, and to at least attempt to get a higher rate?

Especially since they rely mostly on sub sales.

Good show!

It's nice to see a stock site initiate something without forcing the contributors to pay for it.

<cough>fotolia<cough>

I completely abhor "stock photo" sites that charge for hosting.
It's a clear conflict of interest and a certain indicator that they are not serious about selling your images.  They just want to make money from naive photographers.

Quote from: Peter on April 17, 2009, 17:00
But, at some point I will cut 5% of your commision, so I can eventually afford FTP

You are following a very smart industry strategy, called Fotolia commission reduction strategy 

Peter,
What commission rates are you offering? Do you have ftp?

interesting...
I can sort of deduce, only from these comments, which people are istock exclusives and which are not.

Quote from: Satforce on April 15, 2009, 23:16
Some users here are just writing anything... I understand if they don't want to contribute or they don't trust our company but they are destroying us...

While some of the comments might seem hurtful, the damage is only emotional.
What matters is the future success of your business.
A lot of valid comments have been brought up.  There is a tendency for owners of startups to block any point of view that does not match their own.  You can choose to constructively act on criticism or not.  The iceberg that you do not see will crash your ship, not the iceberg that insults you on forums.

Honestly, I really wish you and other new stock sites the best of success.
From my personal point of view, it is better for image suppliers (the people on this forum) to deal with the least monopolistic/oligopolistic set of middlemen as possible.