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« Reply #200 on: November 27, 2017, 13:45 »
+1
I'm not sure Gold is a particularly valid comparison a lump of gold can survive wars and has a physical existence and is even valued by those without a computer. Cyrpto currencies are not hard to find, durable or shiny.

It's a very valid comparison as Bitcoin is used exactly like gold today - as a store of value.

Bitcoin is very hard to mine, extremely durable (as long as humans use math), limited supply. But not shiny, that one you got right.

Gold is not hard to find either. I can walk 10 minutes to the nearest jewellery store and I will find some. But NEW gold is hard to find. NEW Bitcoin is very hard to mine/find, and in a few years it won't be possible at all.

You don't need a computer to hold Bitcoin. At the very least you need a brain (yes, you can store a Bitcoin wallet only in your memory, but risky if you're forgetful).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 13:50 by increasingdifficulty »


« Reply #201 on: November 27, 2017, 17:24 »
+1
There are a potentially infinite number of crypto currencies ...you really think Bitcoins as used now will exist in say 50 years let alone the 5,000 or so years that Gold has been used by humans? Gold is normally a hedge against riskier investments Bitcoin is about the riskiest investment out there which also means of course there will be high returns.....maybe. I'm intrigued by your comment about not needing a computer....how do you validate any random number string?

"The number of cryptocurrencies available over the internet as of 27 November 2017 is over 1324 and growing.[1] A new cryptocurrency can be created at any time"

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« Reply #202 on: November 27, 2017, 18:19 »
+2
And that's the thing... all these comparisons are to Bitcoin, which is all fine and dandy, but we're on about a coin that doesn't even exist yet. If there's 1324, and we say that this new coin is better than 99% of the other coins, coming in at the 13th best cryptocurrency... it'll be worth about $105, almost 100 times less than Bitcoin. If it comes in the top 10% which is a lot more likely, but still very optimistic... it'll be worth less than one tenth of a cent. You'll need thousands of them just to buy one image.

And how many coins have come and gone since everyone rushed to make new cryptocurrencies as soon as Bitcoin rocketed to over $1000? I'm guessing there's quite a few.

I'm not doubting that cryptocurrencies might be the future, but I've no reason to believe that this Stocken is the future. Making the comparison between the two is like using Manchester United to justify starting a football team or Apple to justify making mobile phones. There's a lot that goes into getting to the top spot.   

namussi

« Reply #203 on: November 28, 2017, 01:42 »
+1
I'm not sure Gold is a particularly valid comparison a lump of gold can survive wars and has a physical existence and is even valued by those without a computer. Cyrpto currencies are not hard to find, durable or shiny.

It's a very valid comparison as Bitcoin is used exactly like gold today - as a store of value.

Bitcoin is very hard to mine, extremely durable (as long as humans use math), limited supply. But not shiny, that one you got right.

Gold is not hard to find either. I can walk 10 minutes to the nearest jewellery store and I will find some. But NEW gold is hard to find. NEW Bitcoin is very hard to mine/find, and in a few years it won't be possible at all.

You don't need a computer to hold Bitcoin. At the very least you need a brain (yes, you can store a Bitcoin wallet only in your memory, but risky if you're forgetful).

I still think gold is more reliable after, say, an EMP attack.


« Reply #204 on: November 28, 2017, 02:37 »
+1
I still think gold is more reliable after, say, an EMP attack.

To destroy Bitcoin, you would need an attack that destroys every computer, harddrive, USB memory, etc. etc. in world. Even the Internet can go down if there is just one full node left.

If every computer in the world is destroyed, all banking, and also ownership proof of gold is destroyed. Do you think people that put their money in gold have a pile of gold sitting in their basement? No, they own certificates, and it has been this way for over 100 years.

If something bad enough happens to destroy every computer, harddrive, USB memory, flash drive, etc. in existence in the world, I believe humans would be more worried about finding food for the day instead of store of value.

« Reply #205 on: November 28, 2017, 02:49 »
0
I still think gold is more reliable after, say, an EMP attack.

To destroy Bitcoin, you would need an attack that destroys every computer, harddrive, USB memory, etc. etc. in world. Even the Internet can go down if there is just one full node left.

If every computer in the world is destroyed, all banking, and also ownership proof of gold is destroyed. Do you think people that put their money in gold have a pile of gold sitting in their basement? No, they own certificates, and it has been this way for over 100 years.

If something bad enough happens to destroy every computer, harddrive, USB memory, flash drive, etc. in existence in the world, I believe humans would be more worried about finding food for the day instead of store of value.
Actually a lot of people and communities wear and keep a lot of Gold jewelry as they don't trust banks or governments and governments themselves of course have a lot of gold locked away. Gold is not the same as certificates of ownership that's the point really. If I had a gold watch I could probably exchange it for a meal and bed for a night almost anywhere in the world.

« Reply #206 on: November 28, 2017, 02:52 »
+1
There are a potentially infinite number of crypto currencies ...you really think Bitcoins as used now will exist in say 50 years let alone the 5,000 or so years that Gold has been used by humans? Gold is normally a hedge against riskier investments Bitcoin is about the riskiest investment out there which also means of course there will be high returns.....maybe. I'm intrigued by your comment about not needing a computer....how do you validate any random number string?

"The number of cryptocurrencies available over the internet as of 27 November 2017 is over 1324 and growing.[1] A new cryptocurrency can be created at any time"

There are many different metals and you can make new alloys. We're comparing Bitcoin to gold now. Not Ethereum to Cobalt.

No one knows what people will use in 50 years, and I don't think you'll see many people running around with gold coins, paying for horses, right?

All forms of money is imaginary, it's a language. A language that enables humans to trade outside their village. All it takes is consensus, an agreement.

Right now, the crypto market is worth $300 billion dollars, which means quite a lot of people agree.

"Gold is normally a hedge". If you put a million dollars in savings in gold in 1980, it was worth $169,000, adjusted for inflation, in 2001. Would you be happy about that?

Nothing just "is".

You need to read up on economic history.

---

Regarding the "not needing a computer". You don't need a computer to store Bitcoin. To make a transaction, you would need one (or a phone, any other device).

I don't think you can go to the grocery store today and pay with a grain of gold. Or, for that matter, with a gold certificate which is what 99% of people who use gold actually own.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 02:55 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #207 on: November 28, 2017, 03:09 »
0
And that's the thing... all these comparisons are to Bitcoin, which is all fine and dandy, but we're on about a coin that doesn't even exist yet. If there's 1324, and we say that this new coin is better than 99% of the other coins, coming in at the 13th best cryptocurrency... it'll be worth about $105, almost 100 times less than Bitcoin. If it comes in the top 10% which is a lot more likely, but still very optimistic... it'll be worth less than one tenth of a cent. You'll need thousands of them just to buy one image.

Just a comment here. The value of one coin is not what's important, you need to look at market cap.

Just like the value of one share in a company doesn't say much without the number of shares (i.e. market cap). When it reaches high values a split is often performed.

« Reply #208 on: November 28, 2017, 03:26 »
0
As you are an expert on economic history you would know that all  investments have ups and downs Gold tends becomes more valuable in times of economic instability hence its use as a hedge.

https://goldsilver.com/blog/if-the-stock-market-crashes-what-happens-to-gold-and-silver-jeff-clark-senior-precious-metals-analyst/

We could all learn from economic history obviously but it always sounds rather condescending when someone who knows nothing about you tells you that.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/062315/five-largest-asset-bubbles-history.asp

« Reply #209 on: November 28, 2017, 03:30 »
+1
Keep investing in gold and don't put a single dollar into crypto - problem solved.

There isn't a war between gold and Bitcoin. I said that today, Bitcoin is used like gold. A store of value. As opposed to a currency, which was the original intent.

Bitcoin has been traded at 50-80% premiums in Zimbabwe. There is a Bitcoin rush there because of the disastrous economic situation.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 03:33 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #210 on: November 28, 2017, 03:36 »
0
Keep investing in gold and don't put a single dollar into crypto - problem solved.

There isn't a war between gold and Bitcoin. I said that today, Bitcoin is used like gold. A store of value. As opposed to a currency, which was the original intent.
I agree with that I just don't agree that Bitcoin is "like" gold. The only similarity is that some people use it as a "store" of value. The differences are bigger in my view in particular Gold is a physical thing.

« Reply #211 on: November 28, 2017, 03:43 »
0
I agree with that I just don't agree that Bitcoin is "like" gold. The only similarity is that some people use it as a "store" of value. The differences are bigger in my view in particular Gold is a physical thing.

Gold is physical because the technology we have today wasn't invented thousands of years ago. Do you still write letters? Do you still start up your projector and load a roll of film to watch a movie?

Gold only has value because enough people say it has value. Just like Bitcoin. Just like money. Just like a gemstone. Just like a piece of art.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 03:47 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #212 on: November 28, 2017, 03:46 »
0
Gold is physical because it exists independently of human imagination though I guess that's delving into philosophy. The second point is true but it has a pretty impressive track record in that which is why most people consider it a relatively low risk investment.

« Reply #213 on: November 28, 2017, 03:48 »
+1
Gold is physical because it exists independently of human imagination though I guess that's delving into philosophy. The second point is true but it has a pretty impressive track record in that which is why most people consider it a relatively low risk investment.

The value of gold only exists in human imagination. That is what's important.

Bitcoin is as real as the images you sell every day. There is an awful lot of talk of "valuing yourself" here on this forum, while all images only exist in the digital world...
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 03:52 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #214 on: November 28, 2017, 03:53 »
0
H'mm a picasso I project on a screen isn't really the same as a picasso original

« Reply #215 on: November 28, 2017, 03:56 »
+1
H'mm a picasso I project on a screen isn't really the same as a picasso original

The value of a Picasso original also only exists in human imagination. If you don't know you have a replica on your wall it's as valuable to you as the original.

I assume you also think computer software has zero value? A brush and a piece of paper should cost more than Photoshop.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 03:59 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #216 on: November 28, 2017, 04:01 »
0
Why would you make that assumption? where did I ever say abstract entities have zero value? I just said that they are physically different.

« Reply #217 on: November 28, 2017, 04:03 »
0
Why would you make that assumption? where did I ever say abstract entities have zero value? I just said that they are physically different.

Yes, they are physically different. But the difference in value is only created by human imagination. All value is, except food, water, and other things that are directly related to us surviving another day.

--

By the way - NASDAQ is up 159% since 2011. Gold is down 21%.

Not everything is as it "always was".
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 04:14 by increasingdifficulty »

« Reply #218 on: November 28, 2017, 04:25 »
0
Why would you make that assumption? where did I ever say abstract entities have zero value? I just said that they are physically different.

Yes, they are physically different. But the difference in value is only created by human imagination. All value is, except food, water, and other things that are directly related to us surviving another day.

--

By the way - NASDAQ is up 159% since 2011. Gold is down 21%.

Not everything is as it "always was".
Yes not surprising we are currently in a Bull market that might well reverse when theres a sell off. Lots of overvalued Tech stocks out there like SS for example ;-). I never said Gold was a GOOD investment and I said Bitcoin MIGHT be.....

JimP

« Reply #219 on: November 28, 2017, 10:08 »
0
Why would you make that assumption? where did I ever say abstract entities have zero value? I just said that they are physically different.

Yes, they are physically different. But the difference in value is only created by human imagination. All value is, except food, water, and other things that are directly related to us surviving another day.

--

By the way - NASDAQ is up 159% since 2011. Gold is down 21%.

Not everything is as it "always was".

Kind of math tricks to pick a date that gold is down, based on the year it was at all time high 2011-2012. I'll pick since 2000 when it was $272.65 and now up 390% to $1060. That's an ounce and yes people do hold precious metals, in bars and coins, not all is certificates.  Doesn't matter, Bitcoin is a valued way to hold money and it works, it's just another way. Same goes for silver, platinum, gold, dollars, euros and anything else. Crypto currency isn't the end, it's just another source.

Gold has a different value than currency or traded bitcoin because it's also a product that's used and can be consumed or reclaimed. Contacts in computer memory, jewelry, teeth, bling. You can't wear a bitcoin, but being non-physical makes it easy to move around and store. You want something useless look at diamonds, where the market is manipulated and supply controlled, highly inflated for the people who sell them and almost never an increase in value. Now that's a bad investment.

« Reply #220 on: November 28, 2017, 10:25 »
+1
Now's your time to short Bitcoin.  I bought a share of GBTC yesterday for fun, and it's up $225 already today, lol.

« Reply #221 on: November 28, 2017, 10:47 »
0
Kind of math tricks to pick a date that gold is down, based on the year it was at all time high 2011-2012. I'll pick since 2000 when it was $272.65 and now up 390% to $1060. That's an ounce and yes people do hold precious metals, in bars and coins, not all is certificates.  Doesn't matter, Bitcoin is a valued way to hold money and it works, it's just another way. Same goes for silver, platinum, gold, dollars, euros and anything else. Crypto currency isn't the end, it's just another source.

Gold has a different value than currency or traded bitcoin because it's also a product that's used and can be consumed or reclaimed. Contacts in computer memory, jewelry, teeth, bling. You can't wear a bitcoin, but being non-physical makes it easy to move around and store. You want something useless look at diamonds, where the market is manipulated and supply controlled, highly inflated for the people who sell them and almost never an increase in value. Now that's a bad investment.

Yes, it was to show that gold isn't the water-proof investment people seem to think. It's quite volatile.

Bitcoin is of course even more volatile, but it wasn't around in 2000. Maybe the gold price decline has something to do with people moving money to Bitcoin for store of value?

« Reply #222 on: November 28, 2017, 10:49 »
+1
Now's your time to short Bitcoin.  I bought a share of GBTC yesterday for fun, and it's up $225 already today, lol.

Go ahead. Bitcoin is highly volatile so at some point you could make a lot of money. Or go into debt for the rest of your life.

Shorting is dangerous. Shorting something extremely volatile with an incredible momentum up is unreasonably dangerous.

I wouldn't short Bitcoin.  :)

« Reply #223 on: November 28, 2017, 11:00 »
+1
It's more that anytime I tend to buy something, it drops.

« Reply #224 on: November 28, 2017, 11:16 »
0
It's more that anytime I tend to buy something, it drops.

Haha, gotcha.

When I first bought Bitcoin it dropped 26% right after over a few days. It's back up way above that now. I'm in it for the long run.


 

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