MicrostockGroup
Agency Based Discussion => Shutterstock.com => Topic started by: green machine on June 01, 2009, 05:44
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A lot of people still don't understand the widespread outrage against shutterstock's announcement on withholding tax. There are a large number of objections to non-US people paying this withholding tax, so instead of just dealing with them piecemeal, this article attempts to summarise a number of the issues raised by people.
Withholding tax has been around a long time, a lot longer than shutterstock. If you want to set up a company which is going to buy and sell internationally, you have to do your homework. You pay legal experts to look into the tax implications before you create your business model. Lack of knowledge of the law is no defence in a court. Oops sorry, I killed my neighbour, is that illegal. I promise I won't do it again. Apologists who say this whole crisis is not shutterstock's fault are simply wrong. The law was there, they should have known about it, they should have built it into their business model. They should have integrated it into their contractual agreement with their contributors (although they have done it just now, belatedly).
Shutterstock has attracted thousands of photographers and designers to it’s agency based on conditions that it advertises on it’s website. 25 cents per download, and citing on their FAQs :
At 25 cents per download, how am I going to make any money?
Shutterstock is a subscription-based stock library. Buyers may download a few hundred pictures in a single month's membership. We get a wide variety of users subscribing, so the more images you have in our library, the more you can make! The .25 per download payout adds up fast - for example, if your images are downloaded 1000 times over the course of a month, you will receive $250 for that month! And after earning a total of $500, your rate will increase to $.33 per download, with a tiered set of pay increases as you reach the $3,000 and $10,000 milestones. If you make $250 per month, that's $3000 per year from images that would normally be collecting dust on your hard disk!
No mention of 30% withholding tax or 17 cents per download. New photographers and designers are being lured by a falsehood. Existing non-US ones are being expected to pay for this oversight of shutterstocks.
Shutterstock did not tell its non-US contributors when they joined that they would be forced to pay tax to the US government or give their personal details to the IRS. For many non-US contributors this is a show-stopper.
Shutterstock expects all non-US contributors in treaty countries to give their personal details to the US government or take the tax hit. Divulging personal details to a foreign countries government is totally unacceptable to many people.
Shutterstock expects all non-US contributors in treaty countries to jump through hoops to get notarised documents which can cost several months earnings in some people’s cases. And then spend months sending documents backwards and forwards to the US, all because of an oversight in their own tax department. This, to many people is totally unacceptable. Shutterstocock has not offered the slightest help in covering these expenses.
Shutterstock expects all non treaty country contributors to pay the withholding tax, and there is nothing that they can do about it.
Double Taxation. Many non-US contributors will now be doubly taxed on their meagre earnings. Again for many this is unacceptable.
And there’s a lot more...
Shutterstock is not offering any proof at all that the money that they claim that they are withholding will be paid to the IRS. Every tax payer has a right to know that their money is being paid to a particular government. However shutterstock is simply going to deduct up to 30% from every non-US contributor’s revenue, without any form of proof that this money is going to be paid to the IRS. Shutterstock could be using part of this money to bolster its profits. This to many people who are paid little enough is unacceptable.
The way Shutterstock is implementing this withholding tax, is as a gross tax on turnover and not on profit. There is no chance to deduct costs from the revenue. These costs include the cost of applying for the IRS documentation, depreciation of photographic and computer material, travel, models, etc etc. Let’s face it, a lot of us would be making a loss at the end of the day, and to be taxed on a loss making operation is not acceptable.
Shutterstock has handled this situation with appalling amateurism. We have already mentioned the fact that the shutterstock has lured contributors, and continues to do so under false pretences. Shutterstock has already admitted that its first official letter on the subject to all non-us contributors was factually, and legally false, and has corrected this with a subsequent letter. Following a massive protest on its forum, Shutterstock panicked.
It started massive deletion of posts criticizing the situation.
It started locking threads
It started banning people from the forums. Only shutterstock really knows how many people have been banned from the forums, but there are many. When someone is banned, they receive a message saying that they can request clarification for why they were banned. Shutterstock has decided not to reply to these messages. Not surprisingly, as this sort of censorship in a free society is unacceptable.
They didn’t stop with banning people. They then started to delete people’s accounts, and thereby sequestering their money. Interestingly this has happened just before payouts, so this could yet another way of shutterstock making easy money at the expense of their contributors, and could expose them to lawsuits.
The CEO justified the massive censorship by saying :
‘The only submitters that are getting banned are the ones who are being obnoxious, hijacking threads, asking for their images to be removed (we will comply with this), changing their avatars to an obnoxious message, creating false rumors, etc. It's very common after they get banned to cry on other forums and claim they did nothing. it isn't surprising that ones that cause the most trouble try to get others on their side with the same type of behavior they used in the first place to get banned from here.
If we had time to tell you about the details of everybody we ban, we would. But we don't - nor will we even bother arguing with their logic on forums outside of Shutterstock.’
‘obnoxious avatars’ include those with the avatar ‘Stop Downloading’. How obnoxious is that?
‘cry on other forums’. So once contributors who have worked hard over the years to help grow shutterstock’s business and have been subjected to immediate banning without warning are expected to keep quiet, and not mention this totalitarian behaviour on other forums?
This widespread censorship shows that shutterstock is not willing to listen to all the many hundreds if not thousands of people who are deeply shocked by shutterstock’s behaviour. Shutterstock has only itself to blame if it treats its contributors badly, and they subsequently make their feelings known.
Even if it can be justified that Shutterstock can impose this withholding tax on its’ non-US contributors, the time allowed for everyone to get their paperwork in order is far too short . Estimates for getting all the paperwork vary from an absolute minimum of 4 weeks to 6 months. However Shutterstock has stated that it will start withholding tax from July onwards. This is obviously far too short a time period.
Many of shutterstock’s non-US contributors do not have English as their first language. The instructions received from shutterstock as well as the instructions on the various American tax forms are couched in legalese. Difficult enough to understand for most English speakers, for non-english speakers, understanding what needs to be done must seem to be near impossible. Again shutterstock has failed to help its non English speaking contributors.
Shutterstock’s CEO reacted to the cries of outrage on the forum with an unbelievable statement which included amongst other shameful statements.
‘Welcome to international business’.
This statement seems to overlook the fact that it his company’s lack of unknowledge of international business that caused this crisis.
Shutterstock states officially on its FAQ used to recrute new contributors
I have a comment/suggestion/bug-report. Want to hear it?
Yes! Visit our Contact Page and send it to us by email. All suggestions and comments are welcome!
This is simply not true. Comments are now only welcome as long as there is no criticism of shutterstock. Flattery is on the other hand most welcome (and desperately needed).
Shutterstock also states officially
'Does it cost anything to become a submitter?
No -- We want to pay you! It's free to contribute, and you will get paid each time your content is downloaded. '
So would you like to pay us for the costs that we will have to make in order to avoid having the withholding tax paid? Shutterstock is clear, the answer is no.
Legality
There are a large number of legal issues which this crisis has raised –which for various reasons I’ll not mention here. However it is not surprising that shutterstock has been trying to hide the evidence of its official statements by removing the most controversial ones. There is a very real risk that shutterstock will be subjected to a number of law suits over the coming months, including class actions unless it quickly changes its policy.
I could go on, and on and on, but I hope by now the point has been made. This is a huge mess, and the responsibility for this mess is shutterstock’s. Not the IRS, not the contributors. Shutterstock, and if shutterstock loses profits, customers, contributors, and possibly even its whole business because of this, then it only has itself to blame. Meanwhile other microstock agencies based outside of the US will be rubbing their hands with glee. This could be a defining moment for the future of shutterstock.
There are those that believe that there are only two courses of action. Accept shutterstock's proposal or leave. Wrong, there is a third way, make your voice heard, and apply pressure. Already shutterstock has been pushed into making a concession.
Thankfully a petition
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/say-no-to-us-taxation/signatures.html (http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/say-no-to-us-taxation/signatures.html)
exists which allows people to express their unhappiness about the situation, and where there is no censorship of any kind. For those who feel strongly about this unacceptable situation, feel free to sign the petition.
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You really don't like Shutterstock do you?
I am happy to pay taxes when they are due, and to comply with the law.
Shutterstock is trying to comply with the law of their country.
Sure, contributors will need help, especially the one's who don't speak English. I am also sure that they will be given help if they ask.
Instead of such alarmist overreaction and hysteria, why don't you calmly face the situation and deal with it?
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You really don't like Shutterstock do you?
I am happy to pay taxes when they are due, and to comply with the law.
Shutterstock is trying to comply with the law of their country.
Sure, contributors will need help, especially the one's who don't speak English. I am also sure that they will be given help if they ask.
Instead of such alarmist overreaction and hysteria, why don't you calmly face the situation and deal with it?
... is the correct answer.
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There is a very real risk that shutterstock will be subjected to a number of law suits over the coming months, including class actions unless it quickly changes its policy.
No there isn't - they may be late and could of handled it better but legally they are doing nothing wrong.
In the time it took you to write all of this you could have completed the forms required.
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There is really no point in ranting and raving about it! SS will implement their plan and a contributor can fall into line or leave SS, personally I choose the later because I can no longer live with selling images for such a low amount of money even if the volume is there.
What SS has done is made a decision for me that I have been pondering and that is to go exclusive with IS, this I will now do and drop all other agencies over the next 90 days which seems to be the required time set by some of them.
I'll submit to IS and Alamy, will save me a lot of time with work flow and make me feel a lot better about getting a better rate of return for effort.
So if your not happy move on talk will not change the tax laws.
David
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Hi All,
I don't know anymore...
I just signed up with another US agencie ...and indeed I must fill the W8BEN form but I didn't need to fill in the ITIN number
they said :Just your legal name, address and signature. We do not withhold taxes.
So if this company could do it why is it not possible for Shutterstock????
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You really don't like Shutterstock do you?
I am happy to pay taxes when they are due, and to comply with the law.
Shutterstock is trying to comply with the law of their country.
Sure, contributors will need help, especially the one's who don't speak English. I am also sure that they will be given help if they ask.
Instead of such alarmist overreaction and hysteria, why don't you calmly face the situation and deal with it?
Most of us (non-US contributors) will do so IF YOU PAY TAX from your earnings to any sold image in any of our countries. Do you understand problem now or US law is ABOVE all other LAWS on this planet?
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I find it humorous or more accurately perplexing, that something as simple as filling in a tax form can create such a huge furor. Last time I checked taxes were one of the few things in life that are absolute. It's unfortunate that some countries are not covered by tax treaties but I would suggest petitioning your own government to change those laws with the US. I'd like to see this sort of outrage with 25 cent downloads. As for the W-8BEN, I've filled 8 of them so far and everyone has required either an EIN or ITIN. I suggest getting both if you qualify for the EIN. Do the paper work and get on with it. That's business, at least we don't have to bribe officials to get things done.
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Hi All,
I don't know anymore...
I just signed up with another US agencie ...and indeed I must fill the W8BEN form but I didn't need to fill in the ITIN number
they said :Just your legal name, address and signature. We do not withhold taxes.
So if this company could do it why is it not possible for Shutterstock????
Hey Kaycee - I just read through the W8-BEN instructions again (I'm US but an trying to help some friends with their paperwork) and it specifically states that you must provide a ITIN if you are: "Claiming benefits under an income tax treaty" (or you get the 30% deduction) - So, they may be changing their pratice pretty soon to comply with US Tax Law.
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Hi All,
I don't know anymore...
I just signed up with another US agencie ...and indeed I must fill the W8BEN form but I didn't need to fill in the ITIN number
they said :Just your legal name, address and signature. We do not withhold taxes.
So if this company could do it why is it not possible for Shutterstock????
Hey Kaycee - I just read through the W8-BEN instructions again (I'm US but an trying to help some friends with their paperwork) and it specifically states that you must provide a ITIN if you are: "Claiming benefits under an income tax treaty" (or you get the 30% deduction) - So, they may be changing their pratice pretty soon to comply with US Tax Law.
And that will bring competitive advantage to many other NON-US stock agencies due to harrasment and problems with buerau-cracy... It is simply because many of NON-US contributors will find obtaining ITIN very expensive and delete their portfoilios from US companies held stock sites.
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Hmmmmmm... inevitable for all US sites? ITIN? automatic withholding?
So, er-, has anybody got a handy list of non-US stock sites then?
x
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Wow, that's a long post. I just read the first few paragraphs. The 25 cents/dl you make at SS is taxable income (at least it is in Canada). I declare all of my income from foreign stock sites. I've yet to actually pay any taxes due to the expenses associated with the income (I'm a microstock underachiever!).
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Jon's (1st version) tantrum post of threats to remove ports as well as 'this is how a business is run' .....kiiiiinda got a lot of us thinking of how capable he is as a CEO.
The issue is not that we have to fill out a W8-BEN form. The issue is: does Jon have the maturity or mental capacity to steer/maintain SS to be number one?
There's a good reason why all the big boys (and other stock sites for that matter) set up regional offices outside of the US. And from his posts, it seems he totally missed that from the beginning. Launching the news of IRS Taxation without fully understanding how it works also doesn't shine well on SS/him.
What happens when SS faces another tricky or tough situation? Can he calmly handle it or go into verbal diarrhea mode and alienate his source of income?
Now, yes, he is only human. Try using that in front of a board of directors. As a proper CEO, you're supposed to think/act at a much higher level. Not like a guy who got lucky and accidentally tripped into the role of one.
He just made other stock sites and their CEOs a lot cooler. :D
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It is starting to feel like we are in kindergarten. How do you educate those who want to live and do business in a fantasy world. You can fight reality all you want, it will not change the facts that businesses are required to operate under.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/5090593/G20-summit-Sun-setting-on-tax-havens.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/5090593/G20-summit-Sun-setting-on-tax-havens.html)
If you don't understand that royalties you earn on your images can be taxed by the country in which that income arises, then I suggest finding other sources of income.
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Jon's (1st version) tantrum post of threats to remove ports as well as 'this is how a business is run' .....kiiiiinda got a lot of us thinking of how capable he is as a CEO.
The issue is not that we have to fill out a W8-BEN form. The issue is: does Jon have the maturity or mental capacity to steer/maintain SS to be number one?
There's a good reason why all the big boys (and other stock sites for that matter) set up regional offices outside of the US. And from his posts, it seems he totally missed that from the beginning. Launching the news of IRS Taxation without fully understanding how it works also doesn't shine well on SS/him.
What happens when SS faces another tricky or tough situation? Can he calmly handle it or go into verbal diarrhea mode and alienate his source of income?
Now, yes, he is only human. Try using that in front of a board of directors. As a proper CEO, you're supposed to think/act at a much higher level. Not like a guy who got lucky and accidentally tripped into the role of one.
He just made other stock sites and their CEOs a lot cooler. :D
Is setting up a foreign office really worth while to appease some contributors? Is that why other micros set up foreign offices? I doubt it.
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"Is setting up a foreign office really worth while to appease some contributors? Is that why other micros set up foreign offices? I doubt it." <- Zeus, you're missing the point. Setting up foreign offices provides other benefits like lower taxes, possible local grants, etc. Appeased contributors is loooooow on the list. Foresight....higher. :P
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As a US contributor,
- The few times I have contacted Shutterstock by email, they have been prompt and polite.
- I guess you missed the part where they said that any previous withholding owed
was paid by Shutterstock itself, and a grace period given for everyone to do paperwork.
- Shutterstock is a business and provide the forums as a courtesy. It is not a democracy,
and from what I've seen they are a lot more fair with our posts than some other sites.
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gbalex: i hope you realize by now paying taxes is a reality and a given. the issue is Jon/SS' mediocre handling of the situation.
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I agree with farhad. I'm not affected by the tax thing, but that "make my day" post, where he threatened to delete the portfolio of anyone who annoyed him, made me feel that by selling through SS I'm just helping some jerk get richer. People like this guy typically have no real interest in the long term - they want to make a bundle and move on. Knowing that a person like this is running one of the big agencies has reduced my interest in microstock overall. Yes I know there are jerks running a lot of corporations, but they don't usually throw it right in your face.
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"Is setting up a foreign office really worth while to appease some contributors? Is that why other micros set up foreign offices? I doubt it." <- Zeus, you're missing the point. Setting up foreign offices provides other benefits like lower taxes, possible local grants, etc. Appeased contributors is loooooow on the list. Foresight....higher. :P
Perhaps this has been discussed in the past, the need for foreign offices that is, it's just now that people have to do some leg work and in some cases pay out some money, that the complaints have set in. A foreign office is an expensive proposition, there needs to be a really good reason fro one.
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It is starting to feel like we are in kindergarten. How do you educate those who want to live and do business in a fantasy world. You can fight reality all you want, it will not change the facts that businesses are required to operate under.
[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/5090593/G20-summit-Sun-setting-on-tax-havens.html[/url] ([url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/g20-summit/5090593/G20-summit-Sun-setting-on-tax-havens.html[/url])
If you don't understand that royalties you earn on your images can be taxed by the country in which that income arises, then I suggest finding other sources of income.
From the article you referenced:
What defines a haven, the OECD explains, is not a competitive tax rate but “a refusal to provide information to foreign tax authorities”.
Tax evasion and Tax avoidance / minimization are two very separate things.
Many companies maintain a complex corporate structure across multiple countries to arrive at the most efficient tax structure. This is fully legal and reported to all relevant authorities. They are located in specific countries to take advantage of tax structures (and in some cases to avoid stupid taxes), not to evade tax by cheating the governments. Companies that do not do this, perhaps because top management lacks sufficient financial expertise and fails to engage the proper experts are at a disadvantage; they are the ones in a "fantasy world".
Also, I think the behavior of SS's CEO is disappointing. I always thought SS had it's act together. Now I'm not sure.
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A foreign office is an expensive proposition, there needs to be a really good reason fro one.
Local accounting is a typical reason. Sometimes it ends up working out cheaper to run an operation like that.
It isn't just about the advantages of dealing in local currencies. There is also the business of how you charge and account for local sales taxes. I don't know how, say, Shutterstock goes about charging the buyers for the local sales taxes and duties which are due when buying images online from EU countries. And how it goes about paying that money back to the various govts of the countries where the tax has to be paid.
It's reasons like that why people have local offices.
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...So once contributors who have worked hard over the years to help grow shutterstock’s business and have been subjected to immediate banning without warning are expected to keep quiet, and not mention this totalitarian behaviour on other forums?
This widespread censorship shows that shutterstock is not willing to listen to all the many hundreds if not thousands of people who are deeply shocked by shutterstock’s behaviour. Shutterstock has only itself to blame if it treats its contributors badly, and they subsequently make their feelings known...
Shutterstock is a business, and we work for them. Like any other business, they can let us go at any time, for any reason. Try running your mouth at a regular office job like some people did in the forums and I don't think you'd be surprised to get fired from that job immediately. It's not censorship, it's business, and if you want to act like a child instead of a professional then don't be surprised by the result. Shutterstock (and every agency for that matter) has every right to ban people from forums or delete portfolios for any reason.
You want to protest this new policy? Fine, by all means, do so. But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum, don't be so surprised when you accomplish nothing and only end up getting banned or deleted. If you really expect SS to listen to you and consider your position, be an adult about it and approach them professionally. Pick up the phone and call the office to talk to them. Ask questions, try to speak to someone higher up the ladder. I bet if you were polite and respectful you might even get a few minutes on the phone with Jon to express your concerns. Write an email (not a forum rant) and follow up on it. If you really want to open a dialogue about this and try to get SS to reconsider their position on the matter, there is a right way and a wrong way to do it, and I think you know which side of that fence you are currently standing on. Shutterstock will listen to your concerns, but not if you are voicing those concerns in a childish manner.
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Well said Helix. I have been shocked at the childish and nearly frenzied behaviour in the SS forum. Jon and SS have always been fair and open in the past. People reacted like spoiled children instead of professionals.
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Let's get some facts straight:
That tax thingie isn't a new thing, it's just SS avoided to pay their taxes to the state, and now is forced to do so. True?
If true, this is simply highly unprofessional and unfair behavior. We all signed our contracts with SS under exact terms of acceptance, and if they are in problems regarding their constant breaking of federal law in the past, it's just their problem, and they should recalculate that loss of money into company's profit, and compensate it so no contributor gets any significant decrease in earnings.
They have cheated, not us, and they should suffer, not us.
Yes, of course, this is a business, you can take it or leave it. But I hardly see a reason to have any understanding for them.
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Shutterstock is a business, and we work for them. Like any other business, they can let us go at any time, for any reason. Try running your mouth at a regular office job like some people did in the forums and I don't think you'd be surprised to get fired from that job immediately.
We don't work for Shutterstock as employees.
Shutterstock sells our photos for us, and in that sense they act more as an agency than an employee.
It's a business relationship.
In business relationships, respect comes from both ends.
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Exactly my thoughts.
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Guys, you are quoting helix7 and he is from US. You must understand him, he DOES NOT CARE about your 30% taxes. So, dont get over excited and dont waste your time explaining this thing to people who already pay these taxes. We must concentrate to admins at SS. And there is Serbian forum at SS anyway. I hope all this matter will be solved soon.
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Guys, you are quoting helix7 and he is from US. You must understand him, he DOES NOT CARE about your 30% taxes. So, dont get over excited and dont waste your time explaining this thing to people who already pay these taxes. We must concentrate to admins at SS. And there is Serbian forum at SS anyway. I hope all this matter will be solved soon.
Wooohooo!
Easy dude!
No matter if it is serbian or croatian or argentinian forum... Still all authors from that countries will be DOUBLE TAXED and THAT IS THE MAIN PROBLEM!
FIRST they will withheld 30% for USA IRS due to that countries doesn't have signed tax treaty.
SECOND after authors get their money in their country, Government of that country will TAX THEM AGAIN with similar or even higher than 30% TAX... So, USA contributors as well as all those who fill in and get ITIN will have more earnings than NON-TREATY AUTHORS.
HELIX AND ALL REST - DO YOU COPY NOW?
IN CASE OF ALAMY OR CANADA companies that TAX is about 10% for most countries on this planet and UK and CANADA have signed treaties with almost all countries in the world.
That makes OFFSHORE business out of USA better for foreign contributors if USA Companies NEED THEM AT ALL... But, as stated in some political crap I've read USA IS SELF CONTENT and THEY DON'T NEED FOREIGNERS TO WORK ON THEIR MARKET!
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Exactly, that is what I mean too, but your English is much better. All I am saying is - people who are not affected by this do not care.
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Guys, you are quoting helix7 and he is from US. You must understand him, he DOES NOT CARE about your 30% taxes. So, dont get over excited and dont waste your time explaining this thing to people who already pay these taxes. We must concentrate to admins at SS. And there is Serbian forum at SS anyway. I hope all this matter will be solved soon.
I think you need to understand me before you advise anyone else to do so. Where did I ever say I didn't care about the extra taxes you guys would be paying?
My comments were about the behavior of those who protested the new policy. I think it sucks that you'll have to pay more taxes, but I also think that most people have gone about that protest completely wrong, and no one should be surprised by the response from SS regarding banning and account deletion.
You are right, you shouldn't be worried about explaining anything to me. You shouldn't even be taking this discussion to the forums and wasting your time trying to explain it to anyone. If you care that deeply about the issue and really want to try making a difference, get in direct contact with people at the SS offices.
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Since that tax is political protectivism against countries which don't comply to USA foreign policy, USA government will cover all possible loss in one practical way: PRINTING AIR DOLLARS.
So, YES - USA IS SELF CONTENT!
[EDIT]
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/ (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/)
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...SECOND after authors get their money in their country, Government of that country will TAX THEM AGAIN with similar or even higher than 30% TAX... So, USA contributors as well as all those who fill in and get ITIN will have more earnings than NON-TREATY AUTHORS.
HELIX AND ALL REST - DO YOU COPY NOW?...
When did I become the enemy here? I never said I was for this new taxation. All I said was that you guys need to keep this dispute professional if you really want to get anything done. I really do hope that you are able to talk to SS and get something worked out. My whole post was simply about the misguided anger that has done nothing but make the situation worse. No silly avatars, no childish forum rants. Pick up the phone, write an email, act professionally if you want SS to take you seriously.
How that got translated into "Helix is against us," I'll never understand. :)
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...SECOND after authors get their money in their country, Government of that country will TAX THEM AGAIN with similar or even higher than 30% TAX... So, USA contributors as well as all those who fill in and get ITIN will have more earnings than NON-TREATY AUTHORS.
HELIX AND ALL REST - DO YOU COPY NOW?...
When did I become the enemy here? I never said I was for this new taxation. All I said was that you guys need to keep this dispute professional if you really want to get anything done. I really do hope that you are able to talk to SS and get something worked out. My whole post was simply about the misguided anger that has done nothing but make the situation worse. No silly avatars, no childish forum rants. Pick up the phone, write an email, act professionally if you want SS to take you seriously.
How that got translated into "Helix is against us," I'll never understand. :)
Dude I respect you very much. I just wanted to emphasize problem.
There is my edit on previous message and you've posted this your message in same time as I my edit... I added some link... So please see that link.
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Dude I respect you very much. I just wanted to emphasize problem.
There is my edit on previous message and you've posted this your message in same time as I my edit... I added some link... So please see that link.
Ah. Ok, I didn't see the link before. Now I think I understand what you were saying. Sorry about that. :)
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Does anybody know what percentage of contributors is affected by this change? Maybe is not that high so instead calling it crisis it would be just major hiccup or unprepared announcement.
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I agree with farhad. I'm not affected by the tax thing, but that "make my day" post, where he threatened to delete the portfolio of anyone who annoyed him, made me feel that by selling through SS I'm just helping some jerk get richer. People like this guy typically have no real interest in the long term - they want to make a bundle and move on. Knowing that a person like this is running one of the big agencies has reduced my interest in microstock overall. Yes I know there are jerks running a lot of corporations, but they don't usually throw it right in your face.
In nearly 5 years I have never seen anything from Jon like what is being described. I have found him to be level headed and helpful on the few times I have needed to contact him.
This is surprising and hard to evaluate without having read the post. I understand it has been deleted. Did anyone save a copy? I would like to read it and judge for myself.
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There is a copy in page 7 or 8 of the IRS thread here
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There is a copy in page 7 or 8 of the IRS thread here
Thanks Talanis. :)
I thought I had read that whole thing. Guess I must have missed some pages in the middle...
ETA: Really?! That's a tirade??? Most of it seems very calm and well-reasoned. Only in #'s 3 and 5 does he talk about deleting portfolios.
I didn't read through the SS thread, but judging from some of the comments on this board questioning Jon's intelligence and competence it is somewhat understandable he would have lost patience.
And what he says in #7 about US contributors having already had to provide tax info it absolutely true. They have my W9 and tax ID on file for years and I get a form 1099 from them every year.
FWIW I also have gotten 1099's from non-US companies Dreamstime and Fotolia too.
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I agree with farhad. I'm not affected by the tax thing, but that "make my day" post, where he threatened to delete the portfolio of anyone who annoyed him, made me feel that by selling through SS I'm just helping some jerk get richer. People like this guy typically have no real interest in the long term - they want to make a bundle and move on. Knowing that a person like this is running one of the big agencies has reduced my interest in microstock overall. Yes I know there are jerks running a lot of corporations, but they don't usually throw it right in your face.
In nearly 5 years I have never seen anything from Jon like what is being described. I have found him to be level headed and helpful on the few times I have needed to contact him.
This is surprising and hard to evaluate without having read the post. I understand it has been deleted. Did anyone save a copy? I would like to read it and judge for myself.
I understand Johns reaction very well. It is produced from stress and there is nothing wrong in that. I also lead some much smaller company and I know how hard it may be to make some decisions. I wrote there some letter addressed to him and he read it and deleted. I expected that due he understood that was for him. Nothing wrong I was writen there except that about how hard is to be the one to make decisions and some ideas how to handle situation.
I am also mad when someone point anger at me with no reason becuse I must do what Government says I must do.
So, not SS is guilty for this problems, It is Government of USA and John could not have even dreamed that changing some tax aquisition can be such harrasment for SS and contributors.
Again I pointed to him that OFFSHORE is solution and that can't cost more than few to ten thousands of USD with leaving much more money for him and for SS contributors. The point is that he anticipates that idea and it is his right in decision making due SS is his company - not mine!
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The unedited version of what Jon said to his contributors for those who missed it, or are reading the revised version:
http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama (http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama)
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Thanks Hilary, I spit out my coffee on the original, never thought to save it for reference. The internet never forgets. :)
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The edited, modified, version was mistakenly posted here.
The original one is significantly different at point 3.
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Thanks Hilary, I spit out my coffee on the original, never thought to save it for reference. The internet never forgets. :)
I saved it because, the line that read 'if you don't want to deal with it, leave', made me go yeah, it's time to go then :) I just wanted to remember why i left in case I doubted my decision later!
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The edited, modified, version was mistakenly posted here.
The original one is significantly different at point 3.
Proof?
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Guys, you are quoting helix7 and he is from US. You must understand him, he DOES NOT CARE about your 30% taxes. So, dont get over excited and dont waste your time explaining this thing to people who already pay these taxes. We must concentrate to admins at SS. And there is Serbian forum at SS anyway. I hope all this matter will be solved soon.
I think you need to understand me before you advise anyone else to do so. Where did I ever say I didn't care about the extra taxes you guys would be paying?
My comments were about the behavior of those who protested the new policy. I think it sucks that you'll have to pay more taxes, but I also think that most people have gone about that protest completely wrong, and no one should be surprised by the response from SS regarding banning and account deletion.
You are right, you shouldn't be worried about explaining anything to me. You shouldn't even be taking this discussion to the forums and wasting your time trying to explain it to anyone. If you care that deeply about the issue and really want to try making a difference, get in direct contact with people at the SS offices.
I don't think Jon handled the situation very well. There is no excuse for the kind of response they posted on the forum. They should keep it serious and official. If you saw the post by Jon, I am sure you know what I am talking about. That's definitely not a response I would have. If you are a guy sitting on multi-million dollars a year, you are expected to handle the case much better.
Opening post could be wrong in some ways but many people asked SS if they are going to provide an official document that they paid %30 to IRS and for a long time, there was no answer. Eventually someone said the deduction will be reflected on the balance and earnings page.
WRONG answer by SS. If you are deducting %30, you are bound to provide an official document from IRS so people can put it in their files to prevent being taxed by their local governments.
One more thing: nobody is going to sign-up for a new account knowing their earnings will be deducted by %30. SS is on the wrong path. You may disagree with me as much as you want, but SS is on a wrong path. I wonder what their sign-up page will tell to new potential contributors?
0.25 per download + %30 reduction for United States! :D Ridiculous!
No newbie is going to sign up for that ridicule. Let's see if they are going to tell newbies the truth. I bet they won't.
United States law is very questionable as well. Why would someone pay %30 to US and not even being given a document confirming that he paid. I am in the UK and I hate the fact that I have to obtain a BS US reference number and give my info to any US governing body! I will probably provide the bloody number for the sake of business but I have to tell you I hate that fact as much as I can possibly hate it.
The OP is right when he asks, "Where was all this in the beginning?" Where was it when I signed up? I would not have signed up if I was told about it in advance. But I am not pulling away that quickly after spending a lot of time building a portfolio. I have the right to ask "why was I not informed in the beginning?"
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Jon's original reply is long gone and killed! I don't know if anybody has it around here. If you do post it please!
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Jon's original reply is long gone and killed! I don't know if anybody has it around here. If you do post it please!
http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama (http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama)
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So, if the consensus is that the tightening of the tax laws in international trade is a jolly good thing - shall i pop off and lobby the UK government to start automatic withholding of 30% royalties? The inland revenue are really lovely to deal with.
I don't think so. Because the Uk seems to be keeping with the spirit of the double taxation treaty. I like that. It helps everything flow.
The US,if the whole world is flowing around you, and you're all blocked up with paperwork.... is that really going to help your economy...? don't forget treaties already exist to prevent double taxation - other governments are not requiring foreigners to go through hoops to obtain what is rightfully theirs anyway...
x
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Jon's original reply is long gone and killed! I don't know if anybody has it around here. If you do post it please!
[url]http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama[/url] ([url]http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama[/url])
Thank you! I think this is pretty close if not exactly the same!
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Jon's original reply is long gone and killed! I don't know if anybody has it around here. If you do post it please!
[url]http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama[/url] ([url]http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama[/url])
Thank you! I think this is pretty close if not exactly the same!
It's exactly what he first posted, and it was edited on the web site since then.. he removed the 'if you don't want to deal with it leave' bit :)
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So, if the consensus is that the tightening of the tax laws in international trade is a jolly good thing - shall i pop off and lobby the UK government to start automatic withholding of 30% royalties? The inland revenue are really lovely to deal with.
I don't see anyone jumping for joy over the tightening of tax laws. More that it is just part of doing business.
I recently chose to spend a significant amount of time and money to incorporate my stock photo business because I was getting stuck paying 40% taxes. I would MUCH rather have not had to go through the hassle and expense of incorporating, and hiring an accountant to help with withholding, payroll, etc. But it was worth it to me to save on taxes.
Seems like the choice facing non-US residents selling images on Shutterstock is to go through the hassle of providing the necessary information to avoid the US taxation, or alternatively to have the 30% tax withheld.
I admit, it's not a pleasant choice, but this is a business. Maybe because it's so much fun to do people forget that. But that's what it is, and international tax laws have to be followed if you want to be in this business.
Nobody's saying it isn't a PITA though.
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lisafx,
Well said... i suppose i have to admit for me it's not about the business anymore, but more about politics... so this is maybe the wrong forum for any further comments i want to make! : D
I suppose i've been trying to make the point that it would be disasterous for all of us if more countries decided to follow the US lead. This is why it would be better to work in partnership with SS - these measures are definitely not in their interest either....
I mean, is it just me, or do these measures seem protectionist? I know that, over the past 6 months, nations across the globe have been vigorously lobbying the US to steer clear of protectionism. I just hope that what i thought was a far away abstract concept in a newspaper, isn't actually biting us in the arse right now.
x
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State governments don't sleep and think how to tax internet. So far they were failing but it will come especially when many got huge deficits.
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I mean, is it just me, or do these measures seem protectionist? I know that, over the past 6 months, nations across the globe have been vigorously lobbying the US to steer clear of protectionism. I just hope that what i thought was a far away abstract concept in a newspaper, isn't actually biting us in the arse right now.
x
I see your point. You're looking at the big picture.
I can't speak for the IRS or anybody in the US Gov't but I know that the general feeling over here among people I know and on the news doesn't seem to be protectionist. Protectionism is generally acknowledged to be a very bad idea, particularly during a global economic crisis.
I sure hope that isn't the way TPTB are going because protectionism as a whole will likely only make things worse on a worldwide scale. Isn't that how the Great Depression happened?
Honestly, as much as I complain about the developments in the stock industry, I feel very fortunate to have the additional income, especially right now.
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@ Lisafx:
You are wrong! It is protectionist law!
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/ (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/)
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But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum
Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?
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But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum
Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?
Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!
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But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum
Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?
Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!
So why did he edit the original message ;)
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But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum
Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?
Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!
So why did he edit the original message ;)
:o Probably as many other managers... He probably rethought his first reaction!
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But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum
Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?
Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!
So why did he edit the original message ;)
:o Probably as many other managers... He probably rethought his first reaction!
Exactly, so even though you can say he's the CEO, he can say what he likes to contributors, even HE knows thats not true.
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But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum
Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?
Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!
So why did he edit the original message ;)
:o Probably as many other managers... He probably rethought his first reaction!
Exactly, so even though you can say he's the CEO, he can say what he likes to contributors, even HE knows thats not true.
He was furious... In such circumstances some people can't control themselves! I may be out of control if you find my trigger as well you may be out of control if someone find your trigger as well any other human being can be out of control if triggered!
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@ Lisafx:
You are wrong! It is protectionist law!
[url]http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/[/url] ([url]http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/[/url])
If that is your source of information, Milinz, I can see why you are worried.
The Cato Institute is well known for pushing an agenda. Everything on their site is biased to the point where it is impossible to take their catastrophizing opinions seriously.
Please do not confuse editorial blogging with objective news reporting. Journalism 101.
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@ Lisafx:
You are wrong! It is protectionist law!
[url]http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/[/url] ([url]http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/[/url])
If that is your source of information, Milinz, I can see why you are worried.
The Cato Institute is well known for pushing an agenda. Everything on their site is biased to the point where it is impossible to take their catastrophizing opinions seriously.
Please do not confuse editorial blogging with objective news reporting. Journalism 101.
You say that is not objective article? Wait a few days and I will give you link to MISES INSTITUTE - so you'll then jump from your seat when you read their comment on this tax!
BTW, do you only accept MARXISTIC-KEYNESIAN 'objective' articles?
[EDIT] Marxistic-Keynesian economist consult Obama and most of world leaders today. Also their way to distinguish fire is to add gasoline on it!
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Something ALMOST EVERYONE does not mention is that:
US law demands that SS withholds taxes on U.S. Source Income ONLY, generally defined as income from Shutterstock’s U.S. customers ONLY.
So it's not 30% it's something smaller.
Unfortunately SS did not mention this on the first posts that caused all the trouble.
http://submit.shutterstock.com/forum/abt62633.html (http://submit.shutterstock.com/forum/abt62633.html)
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Why did Jon edit his first reply? Because like most of the rest of us human beings in todays world, we lose it and say and write things before we think about the consequences. And once we cool down, we see how we could have said things a little nicer or more professional. Is there anyone here who hasn't done the exact same thing at least ONCE in their lives? I doubt it.
Cut him some slack. The economy sucks right now...I gotta believe this is as much a nightmare for Shutterstock as it is for you people. If they were supposed to be collecting and haven't been, I guarantee they're gonna be paying some penalties to the government.
Guys, you are quoting helix7 and he is from US. You must understand him, he DOES NOT CARE about your 30% taxes.
I'm in the US and I pay 30% taxes every stinkin year! It isn't Jon's fault, or the US Governments fault, that your countries charge more taxes on that! Do something in your own countries to make things better!
If I do business in another country, I darn well expect that I had better do some research and figure out whether or not it's worth it for me to do business there. Stop blaming everybody else...you all should have asked questions, investigated, and filled out the freakin tax forms when you started raking in the money! What, did you think you would be getting a free ride? Good old America, they're handing out free money!
OK, rant over. :)
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By the way, I'm thinking this whole issue has turned political. When people start quoting institutes and talking about Obama and who he consults, I gotta believe it's a bigger agenda than filling out a tax form.
And since I am no politician, I'm * out of the conversation now. I think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.
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By the way, I'm thinking this whole issue has turned political. When people start quoting institutes and talking about Obama and who he consults, I gotta believe it's a bigger agenda than filling out a tax form.
And since I am no politician, I'm * out of the conversation now. I think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.
If you'd been careful in reading this tread from begining, you'd conclude:
1. Cidepix IS NOT AGAINST US and HE SYMPHATISES WITH THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE DOUBLE-TAXED
2. It is POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM AGAINST COUNTRIES WHICH DOESN'T COMPLY TO US FOREIGN POLICY - SO THEIR CITIZENS WILL BE DOUBLE TAXED
3. Don't play someone who is PATRIOT because you AREN'T - You are supporting ACTIONS OF YOUR GOVERNMENT IN POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM (or DISCRIMINATION of other countries citizens).
4. Would you pay tax in SERBIA 40% and then again 30% tax in USA just because USA didn't signed some stupid treaty which cause and basic goal is to AVOID DOUBLE TAXING?
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BTW, For all symphatizing authors from USA who will pay 40% tax to Serbia and again 30% in USA I am free to give you link to sell your images to Serbian Market:
www.skvart.com (http://www.skvart.com)
Don't worry there is English Language version of stock agency and Good Luck with double taxing!
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I think it is important to realize that just because a law exists dose not mean its enforced. American politics can rapidly change what is enforced and what is ignored.
Some people interpreted Jon's responce as too terse, I would prefer something blunt than from some silver tongued lawyer type who afterwards I am still not sure what was said.
BTW I think it sucks for those who are stuck paying the thirty percent
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I think it is important to realize that just because a law exists dose not mean its enforced. American politics can rapidly change what is enforced and what is ignored.
Some people interpreted Jon's responce as too terse, I would prefer something blunt than from some silver tongued lawyer type who afterwards I am still not sure what was said.
BTW I think it sucks for those who are stuck paying the thirty percent
30% of gross income is a lot more than 30% of actual income (profit).
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YES we all know paying taxes is a pain and a reality.
YES we know it's the IRS how is demanding these taxes
YES some SS contributors could have been more professional
YES Jon/SS handled this in a textbook 101 WRONG way
But the bottom line is, Jon/SS handled this entire taxation in a most mediocre way. Lack of foresight and maturity. I earn good money from the stock sites and would like to see this continue on a long term basis.
Was Jon's actions really good long-term for SS? Try putting yourseif in a board of director's shoes when thinking about long term investments. He's not a very capable CEO if he likes going into tantrum mode when things are not smooth sailing.
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By the way, I'm thinking this whole issue has turned political. When people start quoting institutes and talking about Obama and who he consults, I gotta believe it's a bigger agenda than filling out a tax form.
And since I am no politician, I'm * out of the conversation now. I think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.
If you'd been careful in reading this tread from begining, you'd conclude:
1. Cidepix IS NOT AGAINST US and HE SYMPHATISES WITH THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE DOUBLE-TAXED
2. It is POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM AGAINST COUNTRIES WHICH DOESN'T COMPLY TO US FOREIGN POLICY - SO THEIR CITIZENS WILL BE DOUBLE TAXED
3. Don't play someone who is PATRIOT because you AREN'T - You are supporting ACTIONS OF YOUR GOVERNMENT IN POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM (or DISCRIMINATION of other countries citizens).
4. Would you pay tax in SERBIA 40% and then again 30% tax in USA just because USA didn't signed some stupid treaty which cause and basic goal is to AVOID DOUBLE TAXING?
I guess I would try to understand Serbia's Tax laws before I did business there. As anyone should have done before doing business with a US company. You are responsible for yourself. Ignorance of the laws is not an excuse.
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YES we all know paying taxes is a pain and a reality.
YES we know it's the IRS how is demanding these taxes
YES some SS contributors could have been more professional
YES Jon/SS handled this in a textbook 101 WRONG way
But the bottom line is, Jon/SS handled this entire taxation in a most mediocre way. Lack of foresight and maturity. I earn good money from the stock sites and would like to see this continue on a long term basis.
Was Jon's actions really good long-term for SS? Try putting yourseif in a board of director's shoes when thinking about long term investments. He's not a very capable CEO if he likes going into tantrum mode when things are not smooth sailing.
Yes it should have been handled better. By EVERYONE.
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Let's keep this discussion in one spot so we can try and keep sane
http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/irs-withholding-taxes-for-non-u-s-submitters/ (http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/irs-withholding-taxes-for-non-u-s-submitters)