Quote from: cidepix on June 01, 2009, 22:47

Quote from: hqimages on June 01, 2009, 22:39

Quote from: cidepix on June 01, 2009, 22:35
Jon's original reply is long gone and killed! I don't know if anybody has it around here. If you do post it please!

http://www.draiochtwebdesign.com/blog/shutterstock-drama

Thank you! I think this is pretty close if not exactly the same!

It's exactly what he first posted, and it was edited on the web site since then.. he removed the 'if you don't want to deal with it leave' bit

Quote from: luceluceluce on June 01, 2009, 22:45
So, if the consensus is that the tightening of the tax laws in international trade is a jolly good thing - shall i pop off and lobby the UK government to start automatic withholding of 30% royalties?  The inland revenue are really lovely to deal with.

I don't see anyone jumping for joy over the tightening of tax laws.  More that it is just part of doing business.   

I recently chose to spend a significant amount of time and money to incorporate my stock photo business because I was getting stuck paying 40% taxes.  I would MUCH rather have not had to go through the hassle and expense of incorporating, and hiring an accountant to help with withholding, payroll, etc.  But it was worth it to me to save on taxes. 

Seems like the choice facing non-US residents selling images on Shutterstock is to go through the hassle of providing the necessary information to avoid the US taxation, or alternatively to have the 30% tax withheld. 

I admit, it's not a pleasant choice, but this is a business.  Maybe because it's so much fun to do people forget that.  But that's what it is, and international tax laws have to be followed if you want to be in this business. 

Nobody's saying it isn't a PITA though.

lisafx,
Well said... i suppose i have to admit for me it's not about the business anymore, but more about politics... so this is maybe the wrong forum for any further comments i want to make! : D 

I suppose i've been trying to make the point that it would be disasterous for all of us if more countries decided to follow the US lead.  This is why it would be better to work in partnership with SS - these measures are definitely not in their interest either....

I mean, is it just me, or do these measures seem protectionist?  I know that, over the past 6 months, nations across the globe have been vigorously lobbying the US to steer clear of protectionism. I just hope that what i thought was a far away abstract concept in a newspaper, isn't actually biting us in the arse right now.
x

State governments don't sleep and think how to tax internet. So far they were failing but it will come especially when many got huge deficits.

Quote from: luceluceluce on June 01, 2009, 23:20

I mean, is it just me, or do these measures seem protectionist?  I know that, over the past 6 months, nations across the globe have been vigorously lobbying the US to steer clear of protectionism. I just hope that what i thought was a far away abstract concept in a newspaper, isn't actually biting us in the arse right now.
x

I see your point.  You're looking at the big picture.

I can't speak for the IRS or anybody in the US Gov't but I know that the general feeling over here among people I know and on the news doesn't seem to be protectionist.  Protectionism is generally acknowledged to be a very bad idea, particularly during a global economic crisis.

I sure hope that isn't the way TPTB are going because protectionism as a whole will likely only make things worse on a worldwide scale.   Isn't that how the Great Depression happened?

Honestly, as much as I complain about the developments in the stock industry, I feel very fortunate to have the additional income, especially right now. 

@ Lisafx:

You are wrong! It is protectionist law!

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum

Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?

Quote from: whatalife on June 02, 2009, 00:15

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum

Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?

Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:19

Quote from: whatalife on June 02, 2009, 00:15

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum

Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?

Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!

So why did he edit the original message

Quote from: hqimages on June 02, 2009, 00:21

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:19

Quote from: whatalife on June 02, 2009, 00:15

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum

Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?

Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!

So why did he edit the original message

Probably as many other managers... He probably rethought his first reaction!

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:22

Quote from: hqimages on June 02, 2009, 00:21

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:19

Quote from: whatalife on June 02, 2009, 00:15

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum

Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?

Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!

So why did he edit the original message

Probably as many other managers... He probably rethought his first reaction!

Exactly, so even though you can say he's the CEO, he can say what he likes to contributors, even HE knows thats not true.

Quote from: hqimages on June 02, 2009, 00:23

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:22

Quote from: hqimages on June 02, 2009, 00:21

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:19

Quote from: whatalife on June 02, 2009, 00:15

Quote from: helix7 on June 01, 2009, 20:07
But if those means of protesting include childish behaviors like creating avatars with silly messages or posting complaints in a forum

Maybe they were expecting results more like those when contributors at istock got "childish"?

Well, Jon don't need to read manual of "how to proceed in case of..." as iStock employees - He acted driven by stress and he has right to do it. It is his company!

So why did he edit the original message

Probably as many other managers... He probably rethought his first reaction!

Exactly, so even though you can say he's the CEO, he can say what he likes to contributors, even HE knows thats not true.

He was furious... In such circumstances some people can't control themselves! I may be out of control if you find my trigger as well you may be out of control if someone find your trigger as well any other human being can be out of control if triggered!

Quote from: Milinz on June 01, 2009, 23:49
@ Lisafx:

You are wrong! It is protectionist law!

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/

If that is your source of information, Milinz, I can see why you are worried.  

The Cato Institute is well known for pushing an agenda.  Everything on their site is biased to the point where it is impossible to take their catastrophizing opinions seriously.  

Please do not confuse editorial blogging with objective news reporting.  Journalism 101.

Quote from: lisafx on June 02, 2009, 00:27

Quote from: Milinz on June 01, 2009, 23:49
@ Lisafx:

You are wrong! It is protectionist law!

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2009/05/25/obamas-proposed-irs-rules-mean-trouble-for-overseas-americans-will-also-lead-to-less-investment-in-america/

If that is your source of information, Milinz, I can see why you are worried.  

The Cato Institute is well known for pushing an agenda.  Everything on their site is biased to the point where it is impossible to take their catastrophizing opinions seriously.  

Please do not confuse editorial blogging with objective news reporting.  Journalism 101.

You say that is not objective article? Wait a few days and I will give you link to MISES INSTITUTE - so you'll then jump from your seat when you read their comment on this tax!

BTW, do you only accept MARXISTIC-KEYNESIAN 'objective' articles?

[EDIT] Marxistic-Keynesian economist consult Obama and most of world leaders today. Also their way to distinguish fire is to add gasoline on it!

Something ALMOST EVERYONE does not mention is that:
US law demands that SS withholds taxes on U.S. Source Income ONLY, generally defined as income from Shutterstock's U.S. customers ONLY.

So it's not 30%  it's something smaller.
Unfortunately SS did not mention this on the first posts that caused all the trouble.

http://submit.shutterstock.com/forum/abt62633.html

Why did Jon edit his first reply? Because like most of the rest of us human beings in todays world, we lose it and say and write things before we think about the consequences. And once we cool down, we see how we could have said things a little nicer or more professional. Is there anyone here who hasn't done the exact same thing at least ONCE in their lives? I doubt it.

Cut him some slack. The economy sucks right now...I gotta believe this is as much a nightmare for Shutterstock as it is for you people. If they were supposed to be collecting and haven't been, I guarantee they're gonna be paying some penalties to the government.

Guys, you are quoting helix7 and he is from US. You must understand him, he DOES NOT CARE about your 30% taxes.

I'm in the US and I pay 30% taxes every stinkin year! It isn't Jon's fault, or the US Governments fault, that your countries charge more taxes on that! Do something in your own countries to make things better!

If I do business in another country, I darn well expect that I had better do some research and figure out whether or not it's worth it for me to do business there. Stop blaming everybody else...you all should have asked questions, investigated, and filled out the freakin tax forms when you started raking in the money! What, did you think you would be getting a free ride? Good old America, they're handing out free money!

OK, rant over.  

By the way, I'm thinking this whole issue has turned political. When people start quoting institutes and talking about Obama and who he consults, I gotta believe it's a bigger agenda than filling out a tax form.

And since I am no politician, I'm * out of the conversation now. I think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

Quote from: cclapper on June 02, 2009, 00:39
By the way, I'm thinking this whole issue has turned political. When people start quoting institutes and talking about Obama and who he consults, I gotta believe it's a bigger agenda than filling out a tax form.

And since I am no politician, I'm * out of the conversation now. I think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

If you'd been careful in reading this tread from begining, you'd conclude:

1. Cidepix IS NOT AGAINST US and HE SYMPHATISES WITH THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE DOUBLE-TAXED

2. It is POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM AGAINST COUNTRIES WHICH DOESN'T COMPLY TO US FOREIGN POLICY - SO THEIR CITIZENS WILL BE DOUBLE TAXED

3. Don't play someone who is PATRIOT because you AREN'T - You are supporting ACTIONS OF YOUR GOVERNMENT IN POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM (or DISCRIMINATION of other countries citizens).

4. Would you pay tax in SERBIA 40% and then again 30% tax in USA just because USA didn't signed some stupid treaty which cause and basic goal is to AVOID DOUBLE TAXING?

BTW, For all symphatizing authors from USA who will pay 40% tax to Serbia and again 30% in USA I am free to give you link to sell your images to Serbian Market:

www.skvart.com

Don't worry there is English Language version of stock agency and Good Luck with double taxing!

I think it is important to realize that just because a law exists dose not mean its enforced.  American politics can rapidly change what is enforced and what is ignored.


Some people interpreted Jon's responce as too terse, I would prefer something blunt than from some silver tongued lawyer type who afterwards I am still not sure what was said.


BTW I think it sucks for those who are stuck paying the thirty percent

Quote from: lbarn on June 02, 2009, 02:05
I think it is important to realize that just because a law exists dose not mean its enforced.  American politics can rapidly change what is enforced and what is ignored.


Some people interpreted Jon's responce as too terse, I would prefer something blunt than from some silver tongued lawyer type who afterwards I am still not sure what was said.


BTW I think it sucks for those who are stuck paying the thirty percent

30% of gross income is a lot more than 30% of actual income (profit).

YES we all know paying taxes is a pain and a reality.
YES we know it's the IRS how is demanding these taxes
YES some SS contributors could have been more professional
YES Jon/SS handled this in a textbook 101 WRONG way

But the bottom line is, Jon/SS handled this entire taxation in a most mediocre way. Lack of foresight and maturity.  I earn good money from the stock sites and would like to see this continue on a long term basis.

Was Jon's actions really good long-term for SS?  Try putting yourseif in a board of director's shoes when thinking about long term investments. He's not a very capable CEO if he likes going into tantrum mode when things are not smooth sailing. 

Quote from: Milinz on June 02, 2009, 00:46

Quote from: cclapper on June 02, 2009, 00:39
By the way, I'm thinking this whole issue has turned political. When people start quoting institutes and talking about Obama and who he consults, I gotta believe it's a bigger agenda than filling out a tax form.

And since I am no politician, I'm * out of the conversation now. I think I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

If you'd been careful in reading this tread from begining, you'd conclude:

1. Cidepix IS NOT AGAINST US and HE SYMPHATISES WITH THAT WE ARE GOING TO BE DOUBLE-TAXED

2. It is POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM AGAINST COUNTRIES WHICH DOESN'T COMPLY TO US FOREIGN POLICY - SO THEIR CITIZENS WILL BE DOUBLE TAXED

3. Don't play someone who is PATRIOT because you AREN'T - You are supporting ACTIONS OF YOUR GOVERNMENT IN POLITICAL PROTECTIONISM (or DISCRIMINATION of other countries citizens).

4. Would you pay tax in SERBIA 40% and then again 30% tax in USA just because USA didn't signed some stupid treaty which cause and basic goal is to AVOID DOUBLE TAXING?

I guess I would try to understand Serbia's Tax laws before I did business there.  As anyone should have done before doing business with a US company.  You are responsible for yourself. Ignorance of the laws is not an excuse.

Quote from: farhad on June 02, 2009, 03:04
YES we all know paying taxes is a pain and a reality.
YES we know it's the IRS how is demanding these taxes
YES some SS contributors could have been more professional
YES Jon/SS handled this in a textbook 101 WRONG way

But the bottom line is, Jon/SS handled this entire taxation in a most mediocre way. Lack of foresight and maturity.  I earn good money from the stock sites and would like to see this continue on a long term basis.

Was Jon's actions really good long-term for SS?  Try putting yourseif in a board of director's shoes when thinking about long term investments. He's not a very capable CEO if he likes going into tantrum mode when things are not smooth sailing. 

Yes it should have been handled better. By EVERYONE.

Let's keep this discussion in one spot so we can try and keep sane

http://www.microstockgroup.com/shutterstock-com/irs-withholding-taxes-for-non-u-s-submitters/