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Author Topic: I think we should push for a criminal investigation of SS's payout structure  (Read 2505 times)

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fritz

  • I love Tom and Jerry music

« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2020, 13:22 »
+3
You can't beat corporate blood suckers but they are in danger of destroying themselves by their greed and stupidity.


« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2020, 14:04 »
0
I think that the OP means pyramidal system (Ponzi) not pyramidal scheme

It also isn't that.

I never said it is.

« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2020, 14:10 »
0
i am sry sean. it is. cleary you dont know how to draw shapes with numbers. :-)

I can draw a triangle and fill it in with contributors' usernames.  That doesn't make it a "pyramid scheme".

eheheh. sry for confusion. i meant pyramid shape business. Anyway try to use level and percentages to draw what is top and what is base.How manny will achieve top? Maybe what im trying to tell here you may find in Freakonomics book. A little bit can be explained with Maslow's hierarchy and with Porter's diamond.   

But if you have different perpective please let me know your arguments or where i can read some background of your point of view. 

looking for it! :-)

Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2020, 14:34 »
+3
i am sry sean. it is. cleary you dont know how to draw shapes with numbers. :-)

I can draw a triangle and fill it in with contributors' usernames.  That doesn't make it a "pyramid scheme".

eheheh. sry for confusion. i meant pyramid shape business. Anyway try to use level and percentages to draw what is top and what is base.How manny will achieve top? Maybe what im trying to tell here you may find in Freakonomics book. A little bit can be explained with Maslow's hierarchy and with Porter's diamond.   

But if you have different perpective please let me know your arguments or where i can read some background of your point of view. 

looking for it! :-)

It's still not a pyramid anything, scheme, Ponzi or something that could be taken to court. I will say, in the beginning I said, it was like a pyramid scheme, in that they had people being paid to recruit and refer friends to become contributors. That way members were promised money for getting more people. Of course that all changed when the agencies all decided to drop that system or restrict it to the first two years, or some other limits.

Any quota system or levels system, that pays anyone more for better work or in this case more downloads, is not a pyramid. Levels of achievement, can be in incentive for people to work up.

Most of the promises for income and building a residual income, came from people writing blogs, or books or recruiting, how to make money at Microstock, and not actually from the agencies. Look back at who was promoting and selling seminars, schools and books. That's the people who made the claims. Oh that and the people bragging on forums about how great this is as a business.

In no way is any agency, a pyramid scheme. They all pretty much have standards and pay levels. A true pyramid, for an easy way of seeing how they fail, involves getting more people and each person has to recruit more people. Like a chain letter (which is also illegal) where it promises if you mail 10c to ten people and they mail 10c to ten people... you will get back $$$ when your name gets to the top of the list, because 10x10x10x10x10 (and so on) people, will all mail you 10 cents.

The pyramid problem is, only the first people make anything at all, and the number of people needed to make the numbers true, will soon be more than the population of the world, where every living person would eventually, have to be involved. Chain letters are a type of pyramid scheme where people are encouraged to recruit more members, as a way to channel money up the tree or pyramid.

Since we are being paid for downloads, not by new members membership fees, there is no way any stock agency could be compared to a pyramid scheme. Claiming that the search is rigged, wouldn't fit either. You might also consider that another argument (one of the many Micro conspiracy theories) says, that new members are forced to the front, because the agency pays them lower commissions. Oh wait, that's a direct contradiction to the special favorites are given more downloads. Isn't it?

I could add that people join, voluntarily, so any payout structure would be known and we join of our own free will.

If you want a criminal investigation, you would first need something criminal to be going on.  ;D

« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2020, 15:15 »
0
Huh? Uncle pete I did not find illegal. never said that.
Its not a "pyramid scheme" or whatever evolving criminal scam. its just bad business as i said before.
it's business and it is very legal. SS is vertical with pyramid structure in terms of legal company, rewarding system, etc.

I like straight business. 50% or 60% for my work. no structure reward scheme/structure in whatever shape
we have choice to leave. i did that. 10 years ago.
still selling with my fair cut.

but if i may i joke here....i will leave the door open to horizontal kind of business since last news of angry ss contributors point to that street road... eheheh 

all the best. Leave ss.

« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2020, 16:00 »
+2

If you want a criminal investigation, you would first need something criminal to be going on.  ;D

Agreed, Pete.

It may be "criminal" what SS is doing to its contributors, but there's nothing legally criminal about it.

We all signed on for whatever came. Time to pull on our big-boy or big-girl pants and decide if we value our dignity more than a pittance of an income.

« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2020, 16:47 »
+2
You stand more chance of prosecuting God because life isn't fair.

« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2020, 18:49 »
+1
to find a way to force an audit from a third party would be better! Heck call the IRS and beg them to audit SS

« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2020, 19:09 »
0
i am sry sean. it is. cleary you dont know how to draw shapes with numbers. :-)

I can draw a triangle and fill it in with contributors' usernames.  That doesn't make it a "pyramid scheme".

eheheh. sry for confusion. i meant pyramid shape business. Anyway try to use level and percentages to draw what is top and what is base.How manny will achieve top? Maybe what im trying to tell here you may find in Freakonomics book. A little bit can be explained with Maslow's hierarchy and with Porter's diamond.   
...

looking for it! :-)
now you're tossing out names, without a clue to what you're referencing - just what does Maslow or Porter have to do with this? where in freakonomics?

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2020, 20:29 »
0
SS is vertical with pyramid structure in terms of legal company, rewarding system, etc.
If you employ one person, your system is vertical. If you employ two people, you have a pyramid structure, or maybe a higher vertical structure.
Most companies work that way.

« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2020, 18:02 »
+5
Could you folks please lay off the shapes? Pyramids and triangles, even the obtuse kind, have nothing to do with it and it's clearly confusing the non-english speakers.

The issue is whether or not SS is a criminal enterprise.

Shutterstock is not some guy working out of his garage with a so-so understanding of how the law works. It's an International corporation with so many lawyers you could wallpaper their offices with their business cards. If you think you can bust them on some legal technicality that their lawyers' lawyers didn't pick up on just to nail an extra .28 per image, go for it.

It won't end well for you. You're upset that a faceless corporation isn't putting your earnings and well being ahead of their own. Imagine that.

« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2020, 18:32 »
+1
we are able to create content.
someone else is able to work in the interest of their customers: for example LAWYERS.

Why aren't we talking with a great and powerful Lawyer's Studio to work in our interest?

because we aren't unite.

My question would be about: is it LEGAL to put in a contract something "you can't put in place a CLASS ACTION" ? Maybe we could say "mh mh, oooook, but when a lawyer reads it, (s)he says : oh, but this isn't legal, in fact we COULD ... and SHOULD. This is my parcel: are we going on?

:-D

We aren't able to do this, because everyone thinks that this is "communism" or the like ... but we simply are accepting a one-way contract that has a very very very low level of minimums.

Anyone tried to contact a lawyer for class action try?

« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2020, 20:03 »
+2
we are able to create content.
someone else is able to work in the interest of their customers: for example LAWYERS.

Why aren't we talking with a great and powerful Lawyer's Studio to work in our interest?

because we aren't unite.

My question would be about: is it LEGAL to put in a contract something "you can't put in place a CLASS ACTION" ? Maybe we could say "mh mh, oooook, but when a lawyer reads it, (s)he says : oh, but this isn't legal, in fact we COULD ... and SHOULD. This is my parcel: are we going on?

:-D

We aren't able to do this, because everyone thinks that this is "communism" or the like ... but we simply are accepting a one-way contract that has a very very very low level of minimums.

Anyone tried to contact a lawyer for class action try?

Raise a fund from contributors. Use the fund to contact a lawyer or more in US. Maybe there's something that commoners like us didn't know about and keep accepting what dishes out at us. SS promised us 15% to 40%, but are we really getting 15% to 40%? They are pocketing the money buyers didn't download. That means SS actually pocketing more than 85%, which means they are exploiting a loophole there. Some good agencies commission model calculate the total download buyer uses, and divide equally among the contributors. If we could win the case here, it means we could win the case over all other agencies who pocketed the unused downloads as well. Is a good fight.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 00:56 by Charlene »

« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2020, 08:13 »
+1
Legally , they have every right to do what they are doing but if I think deeper a hole in their perfectly build system could be at another place, not criminal waters and not directly in the contract but in direction of minimum wage law.

If someone manage to prove that in average its impossible for everyone to earn minimal wage with this there would be possibility of a case. Doesn't even matter that we are not officially employed but payed in royalties, cause the law goes both ways. The law says that employer cannot pay under minimal wage, but also workers CAN NOT offer their labor under certain price floor.

Im not really into math but with portfolio size and RPD this can be easily determined. The only missing parameter is hourly production norm or how many images you can take, enhance, keyword, upload and categorize in an hour. 




   

« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2020, 16:20 »
+1
Legally , they have every right to do what they are doing but if I think deeper a hole in their perfectly build system could be at another place, not criminal waters and not directly in the contract but in direction of minimum wage law.

....The law says that employer cannot pay under minimal wage, but also workers CAN NOT offer their labor under certain price floor. 
 
you can't argue both sides - either what they are doing is legal or it isn't (you're confusing criminal & civil law)

moreover, they are NOT your employer  - this approach is a dead end

« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2020, 16:29 »
+1

 

Raise a fund from contributors. Use the fund to contact a lawyer or more in US.....

what would you estimate each contributor pays? do you realize how costly legal action is? class actions are expensive and tedious and only undertaken when the potential is millions of $ (or perhaps, severe bodily harm)

« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2020, 16:37 »
+4
Forget about these topics.

We are not company workers. This collaboration contract has been in operation for a long time and is used by many types of agreements from different sections and branches of the industry. It is not exclusive, they do not set schedules or tell us what we have to upload, work, they can modify it at any time and the signatories are of legal age and can terminate the contract whenever they wish. They do not give us the material or work equipment. Legally, they have the right to decide as a company what they decide, without our authorization, consent or approval.


« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2020, 17:07 »
+1
Spot on.They took a decision. All of we/you have to take ours. There are alternatives. It is not going to be easy for many of us but as some already said if you value your work take it somewhere else.
Many people say this will have no effect of them as they have an unlimited number os suppliers. That is not true. A customer searches for the best product at the best price and if he doesn't find it he moves to somewhere else. It may not happen tomorrow nor in 1 month but the best content providers will prevail in the long term.

Shutter has taken the same road that Getty did. Getty is no longer the leader in stock content as it once was. The same might happen to Shutterstock in a few years.....or not. Always think in your best interest and you will find your way. It's up to you to decide if you can ask for more than 0.10c for your content.

Forget about these topics.

We are not company workers. This collaboration contract has been in operation for a long time and is used by many types of agreements from different sections and branches of the industry. It is not exclusive, they do not set schedules or tell us what we have to upload, work, they can modify it at any time and the signatories are of legal age and can terminate the contract whenever they wish. They do not give us the material or work equipment. Legally, they have the right to decide as a company what they decide, without our authorization, consent or approval.

« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2020, 17:15 »
+3
It's not criminal.. though it may feel criminal.  It's called capitalism and we are free to take our art and leave.  At this point it's best to support and promote companies that support artists.  Sadly my workflow upload list is getting pretty short.


« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2020, 18:42 »
+1
... A customer searches for the best product at the best price and if he doesn't find it he moves to somewhere else. It may not happen tomorrow nor in 1 month but the best content providers will prevail in the long term.

...
depends -- many customers, esp'ly those on a deadline or budget (or are already subscribers) will accept 'good enough' [their metrics] to get the job done  -  in addition, no one wants the (background) image to distract from the product they're selling. that's SS market - not fine art

« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2020, 19:29 »
+3
Yeah true. Totally agree. But I very much doubt that here and now, SS has any solution. There is the collective and its power. There are times, moments, when the spark sets the masses on fire.

There are moments that the collective says ........ END!!!!.

The human works collectively.

The image of uploading files to SS is no longer a matter of whether they are from a low-income country, teens or mobile. The collective will, not upload material for dignity in the face of a mockery of this magnitude.

As customers, collective autosuggestion will prevent buying files in SS. It does not matter that in the past, they were great, what matters is what they show today. And that remains in the collective subconscious. Being an SS client is not something to brag about in a short time. Rather, it will be something to hide.


SS, they believe they are capable of maintaining clients and if clients are lost, replace them with new ones.

SS, they believe that there are artists under the stones and that now we dedicate ourselves to crying and wasting time instead of working and doing things well.

For when they want to react, it won't do them any good.


Clients are not going to connect with SS even if they get the files for free.


Apologizing publicly and communicating acceptance of the CEO's resignation is no longer going to save SS.

The collective has already decided.

whtvr2

« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2020, 06:28 »
0
.....
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 07:16 by whtvr2 »

« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2020, 07:09 »
+1
Quote
Apologizing publicly and communicating acceptance of the CEO's resignation is no longer going to save SS.

The collective has already decided.


You write many good things here Tenebroso and you speak as a veteran. I respect your opinions.

But at this post you are illusioning. Sorry to be the one to tell you so.

Actually Tenebroso is spot on.

He/she might be delusional about the fact that their CEO would ever apologize or turn in his resignation though ;)

SS is no more, at least not what used to be or should be. No matter what happens now they have changed this market, maybe even killed it. Sure plenty of robots are still happy selling 0.10c images or 0.60c clips but the humans that hold the true quality will vanish.

We have entered Nanostock!

If you think this will just blow over think again. We knew what we were getting into when we joined Shutterstock but there's still a limit and SS went way passed that.

They've made some deals with certain artists/factories? good for both of them! Will they survive the next couple of years? Most likely! Will they thrive? no way! A slow death is more like it. Keep in mind it's not just this royalty cut but also messed up reviews, lack of support and dissatisfied buyers.

They are done for and as far as I'm concerned it's only a matter of time till some other big announcement is going to pop up. You can sense something else is cooking there.

Freestock is just around the corner and won't take very long if people will support this change.
They might have no other option but they will certainly have no other option when there's no money left to earn anymore. If you continue to support his why not 0,05c or 0,01c? Where do you draw the line?
And for those who can afford taking action but don't, shame on you! You are just another robot!

So no Tenebroso is not delusional, on the contrary!

« Reply #48 on: June 20, 2020, 11:30 »
0
Quote
Apologizing publicly and communicating acceptance of the CEO's resignation is no longer going to save SS.

The collective has already decided.


You write many good things here Tenebroso and you speak as a veteran. I respect your opinions.

But at this post you are illusioning. Sorry to be the one to tell you so.

Actually Tenebroso is spot on.

.............


  You are just another robot!

So no Tenebroso is not delusional, on the contrary!

  You are just another robot! ?????????  :o

I am not your enemy. I support you, I understand you and it is also the way. SS is dead.

Thanks for developing your comment. Exactly what I tried to explain. That SS is dead.

The group, the collective, the people, the world, will never trust SS again. They, the SS Agency, have touched the limit. And the dough can no longer be stopped. The mass, people has decided to turn their backs on SS. The Shutterstock Agency has NO future.

And the social networks and articles existing online today, plus those that will continue to speak in the future, reflecting reality, will be very clear, the situation in the collective, their opinion, and the general description of the opinion of the that the most, the collective, the people, thinks about this agency. SS is not to be trusted. They will force customers to stay away from shopping at SS. Therefore, SS is past.

And the social networks and articles existing online today, plus those that will continue to speak in the future, reflecting reality, will be very clear, the situation in the collective, their opinion, and the general description of the opinion of the that the most, the collective, the people, thinks about this agency. SS is not to be trusted. They will force customers not to come to buy material in SS. Therefore, SS is the past. If SS does not value your company, there is no space, there is no reason for clients or collaborators to trust SS.

as for the CEO resignation issue. I haven't even told to resign. I have said that even if he is expelled, they force him to leave, they accept his forced resignation, it will not do any good. No one trusts SS anymore, neither contributors nor buyers.

However, in case I don't explain myself well, I don't think I have the absolute truth, ever. I can be wrong. My thought today is, that SS does not exist anymore, for anyone. But it is a simple opinion, mine.
My thought is, microstock is necessary. The market is left with two, three agencies at stake. Adobe, POND5 and Freepik.
Before receiving more criticism about Freepik, I do not defend it, but it is the Agency that has innovated several concepts. And it is not passing. I do not endorse them.

AS is the undisputed new king with quality, contributes backing, and quantity - so much more. To the point that some departments will be multiplied by five because they are meeting overnight with the unanimous support of the community of collaborators. Sending its content en masse.

However, groups are going to emerge, I am sure, that will innovate in this market. Groups, collectives and associations of artists, who will try to find alternative ways to offer their products.

I myself am in negotiations with my trusted team, solving the many problems that this entails, to open a group of collaborators with the intention of earning a decent percentage of work.


Thanks for reading and I have nothing to object to your comment.

ADH

« Reply #49 on: June 20, 2020, 11:51 »
+1
It will be a time when agencies will keep 95% and still people will be uploading millions of files every year. It is sad but it is true.


 

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