Quote from: pancaketom on January 20, 2023, 18:40...

Of course if the agencies decide to pay us 50% less, our income will go down 50%.

no -  the 2 numbers aren't directly linked.  cuts in commission % dont automatically result in same % loss of income - other factors are involved - bigger portfolio, changing market needs, external economic factors (recession, covid)
erosion of portfolio (stable subjects or rapidly outdated)

Quote from: cascoly on January 20, 2023, 20:26

Quote from: tätarätä on January 19, 2023, 22:13

What i wanted to say is that that there is an exponential declining trend.
If you start microstock photography you will see an increase in DL. On average for about the first 40 +/- months.
The next 40 +/- months you probably will see your DL stagnate. Even if you still uploading the same amount of images every month. After another 40 +/- months you will see a decrease of DL with a much larger portfolio.
So there is an exponential function against you.
Your uploads are linear, your DL per image / month are declining exponential.
After your first 40 months at microstock your DL per image / Month  are X, after 80 months your DL per image/month are X/2, after 120 months your DL per image/month are X/4 - on average.
You can't win against an exponential declining trend.

first, $/image is useless - what's important is $ earned.

What is important is the earnings in relation to the time invested. That is something quite different from the dollars earned!

Quote from: Wilm on January 20, 2023, 21:38

Quote from: cascoly on January 20, 2023, 20:26

Quote from: tätarätä on January 19, 2023, 22:13

What i wanted to say is that that there is an exponential declining trend.
If you start microstock photography you will see an increase in DL. On average for about the first 40 +/- months.
The next 40 +/- months you probably will see your DL stagnate. Even if you still uploading the same amount of images every month. After another 40 +/- months you will see a decrease of DL with a much larger portfolio.
So there is an exponential function against you.
Your uploads are linear, your DL per image / month are declining exponential.
After your first 40 months at microstock your DL per image / Month  are X, after 80 months your DL per image/month are X/2, after 120 months your DL per image/month are X/4 - on average.
You can't win against an exponential declining trend.

first, $/image is useless - what's important is $ earned.

What is important is the earnings in relation to the time invested. That is something quite different from the dollars earned!

As I no longer invest any time at all in SS...everything I now earn is a 'bonus'! However, today I did think what when I got an 'On Demand' for $0.15 but I had forgotten that this is January and is the season of the annual reversion to 'biggest profits in Q1 for SS' and eff the contributors! My disdain for SS knows few bounds especially after the management team that perpetrated the scam is now long gone but left its legacy of the contributor heist intact.

Quote from: pancaketom on January 20, 2023, 18:40

There has been a pretty long history of discussion of "the wall" or whatever you want to call the point where downloads no longer go up or even start to fall despite continuous uploading. Unless you can continue to create more images than before or better sellers or the agencies sell more images it will catch up to everyone eventually. The question is how long before it catches up to you and if your income at that point is satisfactory compared to the amount of work you are putting in. 

I didn't say it wasn't a thing. I am sure it will catch up to me eventually, especially with AI generated images as competition.
We all have been competing with millions of new images added each month, so of course each month it is becoming harder to get your image found, noticed and sold. With AI generated images that can be created within seconds the amount of competing images will only drastically increase. There is no way a human can keep up with this.
But I was referring to  tätarätä's post who named 40 +/ - months as threshold for a stagnation or decrease in sales to set in. I am at 53 months now and so far there is no decrease or even stagnation. Again, not saying it will not happen to me eventually, I am sure it will, just saying that at so far it's not and there is no such tendency to be seen yet.

Quote from: Wilm on January 20, 2023, 21:38

Quote from: cascoly on January 20, 2023, 20:26

Quote from: tätarätä on January 19, 2023, 22:13

What i wanted to say is that that there is an exponential declining trend.
If you start microstock photography you will see an increase in DL. On average for about the first 40 +/- months.
The next 40 +/- months you probably will see your DL stagnate. Even if you still uploading the same amount of images every month. After another 40 +/- months you will see a decrease of DL with a much larger portfolio.
So there is an exponential function against you.
Your uploads are linear, your DL per image / month are declining exponential.
After your first 40 months at microstock your DL per image / Month  are X, after 80 months your DL per image/month are X/2, after 120 months your DL per image/month are X/4 - on average.
You can't win against an exponential declining trend.

first, $/image is useless - what's important is $ earned.

What is important is the earnings in relation to the time invested. That is something quite different from the dollars earned!

true, but still not what OP claimed and they didnt make any reference to time invested - i was just pointing out their error

Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q4 2013 - about 32 million assets.
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q3 2015 - about 64 million assets. - growth about 100%
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q1 2017 - about 132 million assets. - growth about 100%
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q2 2019 - about 260 million assets. - growth about 100%
This is an exponential trend.
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock has risen about 650% from Q4 2013 to Q4 2018
Downloads Shutterstock Q4 2013 - about 28 millions.
Downloads Shutterstock Q4 2018 - about 46,8 million,
There is an increase of portfolio Size at Shutterstock from about 650% - Q4 2013 to Q4 2018
There is an increase of downloads at Shutterstock from about 67,2% - Q4 2013 to Q4 2018
This is a clear stagnation of DL per assets online.
And things do not get better since then. The curve is slight flatten at a high level.

Quote from: cascoly on January 20, 2023, 20:26

Quote from: tätarätä on January 19, 2023, 22:13

What i wanted to say is that that there is an exponential declining trend.
If you start microstock photography you will see an increase in DL. On average for about the first 40 +/- months.
The next 40 +/- months you probably will see your DL stagnate. Even if you still uploading the same amount of images every month. After another 40 +/- months you will see a decrease of DL with a much larger portfolio.
So there is an exponential function against you.
Your uploads are linear, your DL per image / month are declining exponential.
After your first 40 months at microstock your DL per image / Month  are X, after 80 months your DL per image/month are X/2, after 120 months your DL per image/month are X/4 - on average.
You can't win against an exponential declining trend.

first, $/image is useless - what's important is $ earned. some strategies emphaszie volume, others  'quality', others different metrics so they can't be compared.

your data for an exponential decline? do you understand the meaning of exponential? the numbers you cite are linear - a 50% drop in each case (50% of 1/2 is 1/4!)   For such a long period, where have you observed such results?
. declines may be steep, linear or minimal, exponential is unwarranted.  if fact, in my case I had a 30% INCREASE in income during the second period, followed by a 20% decline from second to third trances.

Yes, it's not exponential
In math I think it has to be call logarithmic curve, that tend to be flat reaching the maximum.
But the problem is that you don't know which is the "maximum", it's different for each one and it depends on quality and quantity.
2022 was my BYE and I'm in stock from 2014 so it's not bad. But it was BYE for a little up on 2021, so probably I'm going to reach my personal maximum.

You can change the curve, and the maximum, adding new and selleable content, finding new niche or upgrading quality... who knows.

By the way a general calculation it's impossible and not real for everyone

Quote from: Firn on January 20, 2023, 17:46

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 20, 2023, 16:25

And back to the part I was commenting on, percentage of sold images from anyone's portfolio, will also go down the harder we work and the longer we add new images.

That too, for me, is going up, not down. But I think that's mainly because my old photos were crap and I did not have a good understanding what sells well when I started out. But the more data from my own port I had, the more conclusion on what sells and what doesn't I could draw and the better I got at photography, the more I could produce content that sells and therefore the percentage of sold images is going up and not down.

Impossible unless your % of new images sold is 100% and I doubt that. % of all images, sold from your entire collection will always go down if you upload new images. If somebody stops uploading your % of images that have sold at least one time, could go up.

Quote from: Stock4Me on January 21, 2023, 12:19

Quote from: Firn on January 20, 2023, 17:46

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 20, 2023, 16:25

And back to the part I was commenting on, percentage of sold images from anyone's portfolio, will also go down the harder we work and the longer we add new images.

That too, for me, is going up, not down. But I think that's mainly because my old photos were crap and I did not have a good understanding what sells well when I started out. But the more data from my own port I had, the more conclusion on what sells and what doesn't I could draw and the better I got at photography, the more I could produce content that sells and therefore the percentage of sold images is going up and not down.

Impossible unless your % of new images sold is 100% and I doubt that. % of all images, sold from your entire collection will always go down if you upload new images. If somebody stops uploading your % of images that have sold at least one time, could go up.

I think you might have an error in reasoning here, of course it is possible.

Imagine I have a port of 1000 photos and 100 images of that ever sold - That's 10% of images sold.

Over time I add 9000 photos, so I have 10.000 in total. Of these new 9000 photos 5000 sell. Adding the 100 from the 1000 that sold that's a total of 5100 images sold out of 10.000 images.
5100 images sold from 10.000 is 51% sold.

51%$ is higher than 10%, so, no, % of all images sold from your entire collection will not always go down. It will go up if a higher % of your newer images sells than of you old images, which is the case for me, because my old photos were crap.

Quote from: Stock4Me on January 21, 2023, 12:19

Quote from: Firn on January 20, 2023, 17:46

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 20, 2023, 16:25

And back to the part I was commenting on, percentage of sold images from anyone's portfolio, will also go down the harder we work and the longer we add new images.

That too, for me, is going up, not down. But I think that's mainly because my old photos were crap and I did not have a good understanding what sells well when I started out. But the more data from my own port I had, the more conclusion on what sells and what doesn't I could draw and the better I got at photography, the more I could produce content that sells and therefore the percentage of sold images is going up and not down.

Impossible unless your % of new images sold is 100% and I doubt that. % of all images, sold from your entire collection will always go down if you upload new images. If somebody stops uploading your % of images that have sold at least one time, could go up.

I am completely with Firn in terms of experience. Both the time frame and our upload behavior seem quite comparable and I notice a steady, if not spectacular, increase in downloads.

I don't think you can just generalize that. Those who care more about current topics or lifestyle are likely to be affected by the decline in downloads faster than someone with timeless images.

Nothing is impossible 

The poll results seem indicate a decline in SS and a rise in AS.

Quote from: wds on January 21, 2023, 15:26
The poll results seem indicate a decline in SS and a rise in AS.

And personally my numbers are that Adobe is double SS. I can't say anything for anyone else, because while I have 5,000 images at SS and almost 1,000 on Adobe, they aren't the same images in most cases. But the SSTK images that are still there and have been for 14 years, are increasing, while the returns are decreasing. And the images on Adobe are many less, but I make double what I do on SSTK.

Top Tier - Big 4
AdobeStock    71.5
Shutterstock    32.2
iStock               19.9
Alamy            13.2
Dreamstime    2.9

Wait a week or two for more votes.

Quote from: Firn on January 21, 2023, 12:51

Quote from: Stock4Me on January 21, 2023, 12:19

Quote from: Firn on January 20, 2023, 17:46

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 20, 2023, 16:25

And back to the part I was commenting on, percentage of sold images from anyone's portfolio, will also go down the harder we work and the longer we add new images.

That too, for me, is going up, not down. But I think that's mainly because my old photos were crap and I did not have a good understanding what sells well when I started out. But the more data from my own port I had, the more conclusion on what sells and what doesn't I could draw and the better I got at photography, the more I could produce content that sells and therefore the percentage of sold images is going up and not down.

Impossible unless your % of new images sold is 100% and I doubt that. % of all images, sold from your entire collection will always go down if you upload new images. If somebody stops uploading your % of images that have sold at least one time, could go up.

I think you might have an error in reasoning here, of course it is possible.

Imagine I have a port of 1000 photos and 100 images of that ever sold - That's 10% of images sold.

Over time I add 9000 photos, so I have 10.000 in total. Of these new 9000 photos 5000 sell. Adding the 100 from the 1000 that sold that's a total of 5100 images sold out of 10.000 images.
5100 images sold from 10.000 is 51% sold.

51%$ is higher than 10%, so, no, % of all images sold from your entire collection will not always go down. It will go up if a higher % of your newer images sells than of you old images, which is the case for me, because my old photos were crap.

So your math assumption is based on selling 10% now and for the last few years, and suddenly you are going to upload 900% more images and have a 50% download rate? 

My specific way of download rate, just in case I'm not clear isn't anything more than, has an image been downloaded one time. So for example, I have 5,000 images, 1,200 have at least one download. The real numbers are, 5,318 and just under 1,400 different images have one DL. 26%

I'll challenge you to do some simple math. What is your percentage of images as of January 1st, that have one download. Then in 2024, you calculate your percentage of all your images that have at least one download. I'm betting that the number is not going to be higher.

What's your download percentage right now?

That's where this started. As other have pointed out, new images are up against stiffer competition. We can't upload huge numbers of new images to keep up. And one of my main arguments against image aging into success is, old images that have never been sold once, are less likely to be found and sold once, especially compared to new better images, which we both agree, are better because we both have learned what to shoot and what sells best.

What is you lifetime download ratio?  https://submit.shutterstock.com/earnings/top-performers?page=1&date_range=0&sort_direction=desc&per_page=100&language=en

Every page is 100 images, using that link. Except the last page. Simply divide your total images into the number of pages x 100 and there you are.

Mine is 26.3%

Everyone is invited to join in and then next January, lets compare. I would love to see people have higher numbers, but I doubt that it's going to happen.

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 21, 2023, 17:08

So your math assumption is based on selling 10% now and for the last few years, and suddenly you are going to upload 900% more images and have a 50% download rate? 

My specific way of download rate, just in case I'm not clear isn't anything more than, has an image been downloaded one time. So for example, I have 5,000 images, 1,200 have at least one download. The real numbers are, 5,318 and just under 1,400 different images have one DL. 26%

What's your download percentage right now?

What? No?  I think we are all getting a bit confused here.

My assuption - which by the way is not an assumption, but close to my real situation - is selling around 10% for the first 2-3 years after joining microstock, then gradually uploading more images over time - not "suddenly" 900% more images. I never said anything about that and and do not really understand how it could have been interpreted that way. Who uploades 9000 images of decent quality at once? It takes time to build a portfolio.
As I uploaded more and better images over time, my % sales rate has gone up as more of my newer images were sold than of my older images.
Yes, I understand that we are tralking about images that having been downloaded one time.
My download percentage right now is 43%.

Quote from: tätarätä on January 21, 2023, 08:30
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q4 2013 - about 32 million assets.
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q3 2015 - about 64 million assets. - growth about 100%
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q1 2017 - about 132 million assets. - growth about 100%
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock Q2 2019 - about 260 million assets. - growth about 100%
This is an exponential trend.
Portfolio Size of Shutterstock has risen about 650% from Q4 2013 to Q4 2018
Downloads Shutterstock Q4 2013 - about 28 millions.
Downloads Shutterstock Q4 2018 - about 46,8 million,
There is an increase of portfolio Size at Shutterstock from about 650% - Q4 2013 to Q4 2018
There is an increase of downloads at Shutterstock from about 67,2% - Q4 2013 to Q4 2018
This is a clear stagnation of DL per assets online.
And things do not get better since then. The curve is slight flatten at a high level.

none of that matters - you were talking about individual artists, not SS financials - you've no proof (and several counter-facts) that revenues declined 40%

Quote from: wds on January 21, 2023, 15:26
The poll results seem indicate a decline in SS and a rise in AS.

assuming the poll is accurate (LOL!), that's irrelevant for individual artists

Quote from: Firn on January 21, 2023, 17:44

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 21, 2023, 17:08

So your math assumption is based on selling 10% now and for the last few years, and suddenly you are going to upload 900% more images and have a 50% download rate? 

My specific way of download rate, just in case I'm not clear isn't anything more than, has an image been downloaded one time. So for example, I have 5,000 images, 1,200 have at least one download. The real numbers are, 5,318 and just under 1,400 different images have one DL. 26%

What's your download percentage right now?

What? No?  I think we are all getting a bit confused here.

My assuption - which by the way is not an assumption, but close to my real situation - is selling around 10% for the first 2-3 years after joining microstock, then gradually uploading more images over time - not "suddenly" 900% more images. I never said anything about that and and do not really understand how it could have been interpreted that way. Who uploades 9000 images of decent quality at once? It takes time to build a portfolio.
As I uploaded more and better images over time, my % sales rate has gone up as more of my newer images were sold than of my older images.
Yes, I understand that we are tralking about images that having been downloaded one time.
My download percentage right now is 43%.

That's really good and it shows you learned what sells. Your total images in your portfolio on SS, 43% have at least one Download? Stunning and a good success rate.

How many total images now? And no that's not about how big is your collection. You could have 200 and make more than people who have been uploading. Not how many but what are they. (seems I'm repeating that a lot?  )

Makes me wonder what my first year uploads on SS did, I bet it wasn't very good. I mean I wonder if it was even 10% like you say yours did.

Sales fell off after 4 years, but then I doubled the collection and added some different materials. Income went up but percentage of total images sold, went flat after that year. I can't argue against more images, usually make more money. But I can also say, less images, but specific choices will also make more money. Both are valid.

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 21, 2023, 20:41


That's really good and it shows you learned what sells. Your total images in your portfolio on SS, 43% have at least one Download? Stunning and a good success rate.

How many total images now? And no that's not about how big is your collection. You could have 200 and make more than people who have been uploading. Not how many but what are they. (seems I'm repeating that a lot?  )

Yes, 43% have at least one download.
I am not sure I understand the "how many total images. Not how many, but what are they?" question. I have 11.119 images in my port, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by "what" are they. Do you want to know which images specifically sold? That would be hard to explain with thousands of images.
My port is not a secret, I use the same username: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/Firn?sort=newest

Quote from: Firn on January 22, 2023, 07:18

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 21, 2023, 20:41


That's really good and it shows you learned what sells. Your total images in your portfolio on SS, 43% have at least one Download? Stunning and a good success rate.

How many total images now? And no that's not about how big is your collection. You could have 200 and make more than people who have been uploading. Not how many but what are they. (seems I'm repeating that a lot?  )

Yes, 43% have at least one download.
I am not sure I understand the "how many total images. Not how many, but what are they?" question. I have 11.119 images in my port, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by "what" are they. Do you want to know which images specifically sold? That would be hard to explain with thousands of images.
My port is not a secret, I use the same username: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/Firn?sort=newest

you've found a lucrative niche  - that's the 'what are they' factor - as opposed to landscapes & travel images which need volume and have a smaller % sold at least once

Quote from: Firn on January 22, 2023, 07:18

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 21, 2023, 20:41


That's really good and it shows you learned what sells. Your total images in your portfolio on SS, 43% have at least one Download? Stunning and a good success rate.

How many total images now? And no that's not about how big is your collection. You could have 200 and make more than people who have been uploading. Not how many but what are they. (seems I'm repeating that a lot?  )

Yes, 43% have at least one download.
I am not sure I understand the "how many total images. Not how many, but what are they?" question. I have 11.119 images in my port, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by "what" are they. Do you want to know which images specifically sold? That would be hard to explain with thousands of images.
My port is not a secret, I use the same username: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/Firn?sort=newest

Not a question and it's just what you are doing right that some other people have missed. "It's not how many, but what are they?" 

As usual, these discussions get to swaying and swinging and go off into other things. My position is, for most people, in most cases, and the general math of all of it... Old images are not more likely to sell over time. If they didn't sell the first year, they probably won't sell next year. If they do, not many will join the sold once or more group vs the never sold group.

And in general for most people, the percentage of images that have one download or more, is not going to change in any significant number, the longer they are online. All my old illustrations from 2012 are not suddenly going to get attention and start being regular sellers.

In fact the number, if the uploads and quality and subjects and artist, are what someone usually does, their numbers will be the same. And the percentage of images sold, will drop, every year.

And that's where I started. The percentage of images sold, at least once, by anyone, are more likely to drop over time, not increase.

Of course the counter to that is " It's not how many, but what are they?" 

You are an exception to what generally happens, and anyone else who changed what they upload and found better subjects or something else that makes their work more attractive to buyers, will also be an exception. But overcoming the numbers for a larger and larger collection, the percentage of sold images will tend to become more stable over time.

And that's why I mentioned, it's much harder to go up in average than down, as the number of images (games bowled, rounds played, points scored, batting average, or anything else) goes up. If you keep your 43%, you will stay at that. If you drop for newer images, the percentages go down faster.

Happy Sales!

And yes, killer images with the costumes!

Quote from: cascoly on January 22, 2023, 16:52

Quote from: Firn on January 22, 2023, 07:18

Quote from: Uncle Pete on January 21, 2023, 20:41


That's really good and it shows you learned what sells. Your total images in your portfolio on SS, 43% have at least one Download? Stunning and a good success rate.

How many total images now? And no that's not about how big is your collection. You could have 200 and make more than people who have been uploading. Not how many but what are they. (seems I'm repeating that a lot?  )

Yes, 43% have at least one download.
I am not sure I understand the "how many total images. Not how many, but what are they?" question. I have 11.119 images in my port, but I am not sure I understand what you mean by "what" are they. Do you want to know which images specifically sold? That would be hard to explain with thousands of images.
My port is not a secret, I use the same username: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/Firn?sort=newest

you've found a lucrative niche  - that's the 'what are they' factor - as opposed to landscapes & travel images which need volume and have a smaller % sold at least once

Or in my case, backgrounds or objects isolated on white. The same old Crapstock isn't selling like it used to. 👍

In my case, it looks like this:

I have 1322 images. Of these, 1198 images have at least 2 downloads. That is 90.6%. On average, each of my images has 59.2 downloads - including the unsold ones.

I had at some point deleted every image without a download that had been online for a while, because I was sure that these images would never achieve a download again, because I assumed that they would no longer be found in searches. Otherwise, I would have at least about 1500 images online - probably a few more. I left a few relatively newly uploaded images without download online. So now I also have 18 images with exactly one download.

Whether this "cleaning" of the portfolio was useful or beneficial for the portfolio ranking, I don't know. That be's only the algorithm of shutterstock.

I know that the lack of uploading hurts my performance, because I know or suspect how it develops for example with Firn or Ralf, namely positively in contrast to me. But for shutterstock I lack the motivation and therefore I accept declining numbers.

However, with all the whining I must also say: For the fact that I no longer feed the beast, I have to be satisfied with my income. As Doug Jensen would have said: Currently, I'm still harvesting from the seeds I sowed years ago. How long that will work without sowing new seeds, I don't know.

got enhanced license sold by SS today for below $2 

Quote from: U11 on January 23, 2023, 01:57
got enhanced license sold by SS today for below $2

What???

Quote from: U11 on January 23, 2023, 01:57
got enhanced license sold by SS today for below $2