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Author Topic: 10 dead 20 wounded in school shooting  (Read 20888 times)

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« on: October 01, 2015, 13:52 »
+11
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/01/us/oregon-college-shooting/index.html

it never ends, does it, until they give up that right to keep and bear arms


« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 13:55 »
+9
238 days, 247 mass shootings in America - still think they're 'isolated' incidents?

http://www.pennlive.com/opinion/2015/08/isolated_incident_theres_a_mas.html

« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 14:02 »
+1
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/01/us/oregon-college-shooting/index.html

it never ends, does it, until they give up that right to keep and bear arms


They will get them anyway. There are about a thousand ways to get firearms without going to a gunshop or register.

« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 14:17 »
+10
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/01/us/oregon-college-shooting/index.html

it never ends, does it, until they give up that right to keep and bear arms


They will get them anyway. There are about a thousand ways to get firearms without going to a gunshop or register.
criminals always have and always will, agree, average joe wont, and its them who go into schools, not hardened criminals

« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 14:24 »
+10
I can understand the argument that people should have the freedom to bear arms for whatever principled reason but the idea that it wouldn't prevent shootings to ban people having guns is absolutely rediculous. There is so much evidence from all over the world that more stringent gun laws equals massively  less shooting deaths. There's  even a nice parallel in austrailia where they had liberal (small l) gun laws and tightened them up after shootings with the result of massively less gun deaths. Sadly it has become a tribal political issue in the US and can never be anything else with the massive arms industry involved.

Shelma1

« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 14:34 »
+8
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/01/us/oregon-college-shooting/index.html

it never ends, does it, until they give up that right to keep and bear arms


They will get them anyway. There are about a thousand ways to get firearms without going to a gunshop or register.
criminals always have and always will, agree, average joe wont, and its them who go into schools, not hardened criminals


Actually, studies show that most criminals get guns by buying them from people they know. If those people didn't have guns, they wouldn't be able to get them. And more than 500,000 guns are stolen from private owners in the U.S. every year. Same storyif those people didn't have guns, there'd be fewer to steal.

« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 14:34 »
+1
I can understand the argument that people should have the freedom to bear arms for whatever principled reason but the idea that it wouldn't prevent shootings to ban people having guns is absolutely rediculous. There is so much evidence from all over the world that more stringent gun laws equals massively  less shooting deaths. There's  even a nice parallel in austrailia where they had liberal (small l) gun laws and tightened them up after shootings with the result of massively less gun deaths. Sadly it has become a tribal political issue in the US and can never be anything else with the massive arms industry involved.

The minute you ban something you create a black market and just imagine the giant size of a black market in the US. Look at countries where you even need a license for air-guns, type Scandinavia, look what happened in Norway.

« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 14:54 »
+5
? What is your point. There's a black market for guns already.  There would be less guns floating about to find their way onto the black market. I frankly don't care one way or another what laws are in place in the US. It just seems odd to me that there is any argument about the fact that more stringent gun laws would equal less deaths. Every bit of evidence is to the contrary. You would think that the argument would bump into reality at some point. The pro gun lobby even manages to prevent collation of statistics on gun crime and gun ownership. If you just really like owning guns why not just say "sorry, I like guns they are f*****g awsome" or even "I see it as a fundamental right that outweighs the negatives" and leave it at that. Everything else seems either silly or disingenuous.

« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 15:12 »
+1
No but your point amalgamates to the same old philosophy " ban all firearms"  that argument have been beaten to death and it will never happen, simple as that.
Its no point getting uptight about, not worth it. Just when the anti-gun squad comes along with the same old argument nobody takes any notice anymore.
Instead they should get all the lunatics off the streets. I mean this is not just somebody waking up one morning and decide to shoot people.

ShadySue

« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 15:18 »
+5
No but your point amalgamates to the same old philosophy " ban all firearms"  that argument have been beaten to death and it will never happen, simple as that.
Don't be so defeatist.
One day, enough Americans might come to their senses.

« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 15:20 »
+3
There is no "instead". No one is going to argue that lunatics should be left on the streets. But you won't get them all and less of them will be shooting your kids if you tightened up gun laws. But then again as I said maybe you just really like the feeling of owning a gun or think it is your right, so go ahead. Meh. I am not up tight about that, it's up to the American public and as I say I don't really mind either way. I only get annoyed when I see poor arguments that have no basis in reality. It could be about anything really.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 15:45 by Justanotherphotographer »

« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2015, 15:23 »
0
No but your point amalgamates to the same old philosophy " ban all firearms"  that argument have been beaten to death and it will never happen, simple as that.
Don't be so defeatist.
One day, enough Americans might come to their senses.

I'm not too sure about that ;D and even if they did there will always be nutters.

« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 15:28 »
+3
Once the average citizen isn't allowed to have guns, criminals take over and crime skyrockets.
Just ask Latin America.

Then look at Switzerland - the problem is not the gun, the problem is the culture (or lack of it).

ShadySue

« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 15:33 »
+3
No but your point amalgamates to the same old philosophy " ban all firearms"  that argument have been beaten to death and it will never happen, simple as that.
Don't be so defeatist.
One day, enough Americans might come to their senses.

I'm not too sure about that ;D and even if they did there will always be nutters.
There will always be nutters and there will always be a degree of gun crime even in countries which have very tight laws. Just fewer, which is a Good Thing, IMO.

ShadySue

« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 15:36 »
+6
Once the average citizen isn't allowed to have guns, criminals take over and crime skyrockets.
Just ask Latin America.
Not necessarily. We have tight gun laws, particularly after Dunblane.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_%28Amendment%29_Act_1997
We have crime, but it certainly didn't increase after we tightened the already fairly tight gun laws.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 09:20 by ShadySue »

fritz

  • I love Tom and Jerry music

« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2015, 16:26 »
+5
No wonder! As long as an ordinary US citizen can go to the shop and legally buy gun we will see gun shooting!
In Europe or in most of the countries you'll have to get permission from police and have to explain WHY for god sake you need weapon. At the end maybe you'll get permission for a limited time to have weapon.

« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2015, 17:17 »
+1
Yes and in many European countries, when a burglar comes through the window waving a gun,  you are supposed to use harsh language against his gun. God forbid if you should hit him over the head with something. He can then sue YOU for grevious bodily harm.

No matter how one twist and turn this question in the end nobody wins.

« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2015, 20:51 »
+4
No one needs multiple weapons - semi-automatics, etc. It's insane IMHO - I hope my countrymen finally do the right thing, ban assault weapons and make it much more difficult to get any type of gun. It's one thing to want to hunt, it's another to have a personal arsenal. So heartbreaking all these kids dead or injured.

« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2015, 00:06 »
+7
Yes and in many European countries, when a burglar comes through the window waving a gun,  you are supposed to use harsh language against his gun. God forbid if you should hit him over the head with something. He can then sue YOU for grevious bodily harm.

No matter how one twist and turn this question in the end nobody wins.
This is what I'm talking about. I live in the uk. Gun laws here are tight. Burglars here don't  have guns. Home owners don't have guns. In the US burglars and homeowners often do. You are far more likely to be shot by a burglar in the US with their gun or yours. You may be able to find a freak exception to this, just like you could find a freak instance of a mass shooting in Europe. There's a reason why these instances make global news. They are like zebras while American mass shootings are like horses. You are right that no one wins the overall  argument. Some people like having guns some don't.  Some people value the feeling of individual power enough to outweigh the extra actual deaths. That's up to you. But you can't just say random stuff like this without sounding odd to anyone not in the argument. You're  just  incorrect.

« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2015, 00:56 »
+14
When it comes to guns, many of us in the US are complete nuts. Must have something to do with our fairly recent "Wild West Frontier" experience (relatively speaking, of course), compared to other places in the world that have been densely populated for far longer than the North American continent.

One thing's certain: for all our military might, we Americans, as individuals, are not safer than people who live in other developed countries. What happened today in bucolic Roseburg, Oregon could happen in any state or town in the USA, at any time, in any location, and to anybody. The violence is totally random and unpredictable. It's not uncommon for parents to kiss their kids or spouses goodbye in the morning only to find out later that was the last time they'd ever see them alive.

If some foreign terrorist were to come into our country and do to us what our own citizens do on a frightfully regular basis, the country (most especially the gun nuts) would be up in arms. GOTTA GO FIGHT TERRORISM!!! But when we do it to ourselves, the gun nuts just shrug.

The all-powerful gun-rights lobby that has sunk its hooks deep into many of our politicians argues that we need more guns, not fewer guns, and fewer laws/restrictions not more. If they had their way, every teacher and office worker and store clerk and grocery stockboy and pastor/priest/rabbi and television reporter and truck driver and model and crossing guard and elected official and college/highschool/kindergarten student would be "packin' heat" and practicing "concealed carry." That, they argue, would make us all safe. Right.

Why we put up with this is anybody's guess, but it certainly doesn't make sense to me.

Disgusting.

« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2015, 01:57 »
+2
Yes and in many European countries, when a burglar comes through the window waving a gun,  you are supposed to use harsh language against his gun. God forbid if you should hit him over the head with something. He can then sue YOU for grevious bodily harm.

No matter how one twist and turn this question in the end nobody wins.
This is what I'm talking about. I live in the uk. Gun laws here are tight. Burglars here don't  have guns. Home owners don't have guns. In the US burglars and homeowners often do. You are far more likely to be shot by a burglar in the US with their gun or yours. You may be able to find a freak exception to this, just like you could find a freak instance of a mass shooting in Europe. There's a reason why these instances make global news. They are like zebras while American mass shootings are like horses. You are right that no one wins the overall  argument. Some people like having guns some don't.  Some people value the feeling of individual power enough to outweigh the extra actual deaths. That's up to you. But you can't just say random stuff like this without sounding odd to anyone not in the argument. You're  just  incorrect.

I live in London!  burglars don't have guns???  home owners don't have guns???  who are you kidding or do you live in a quiet suburb to London. I got my studio down in Chelsea just around from Cadogan-square and let me tell you I personally know four people down here who are gun-owners.
About a week back, two burglars were trying to rob a transport form some jewellry store, Police got a tip or something and they found two sawn-off shotguns and two 357 Magnums with pure factory-loads.

Thats just a taste of the REAL London for you, the centre of London. This is not just an American thing but considering the US population is ten times bigger there are ten times more guns.

« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2015, 02:18 »
+11
"This is not just an American thing but considering the US population is ten times bigger there are ten times more guns."

Factually incorrect of course......in 2007 according to the small arms survey there were 88 guns PER Hundred people in US vs 6.6 in the UK. So I reckon thats about 60-70  times as many guns.

You are of course entitled to your opinion but it would be more credible if there were some objective evidence to support it.

« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2015, 02:44 »
+2
Yes and in many European countries, when a burglar comes through the window waving a gun,  you are supposed to use harsh language against his gun. God forbid if you should hit him over the head with something. He can then sue YOU for grevious bodily harm.

No matter how one twist and turn this question in the end nobody wins.
This is what I'm talking about. I live in the uk. Gun laws here are tight. Burglars here don't  have guns. Home owners don't have guns. In the US burglars and homeowners often do. You are far more likely to be shot by a burglar in the US with their gun or yours. You may be able to find a freak exception to this, just like you could find a freak instance of a mass shooting in Europe. There's a reason why these instances make global news. They are like zebras while American mass shootings are like horses. You are right that no one wins the overall  argument. Some people like having guns some don't.  Some people value the feeling of individual power enough to outweigh the extra actual deaths. That's up to you. But you can't just say random stuff like this without sounding odd to anyone not in the argument. You're  just  incorrect.

I live in London!  burglars don't have guns???  home owners don't have guns???  who are you kidding or do you live in a quiet suburb to London. I got my studio down in Chelsea just around from Cadogan-square and let me tell you I personally know four people down here who are gun-owners.
About a week back, two burglars were trying to rob a transport form some jewellry store, Police got a tip or something and they found two sawn-off shotguns and two 357 Magnums with pure factory-loads.

Thats just a taste of the REAL London for you, the centre of London. This is not just an American thing but considering the US population is ten times bigger there are ten times more guns.

Lol, I was born and raised in one of the most dangerous parts of London with one the highest murder rates/ lowest employment/ lowest average income in the UK. The idea that the centre of London is the "real" London is absolutely hilarious. Cadogan-Square?! Where a flat will set you back in excess of 3 million? You crack me up. I was raised in a house where there were shot guns and shells literally lying around. I used to show them off to my friends when I was 5 years old. One of those friends was in prison for armed robbery a couple of months after he dropped out of school at 16. Another for supplying him with class A drugs while he was in there. My opinions aren't based on ignorance. I just don't let my anecdotal personal experiences outweigh the facts.

« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2015, 03:17 »
+6
...... This is not just an American thing but considering the US population is ten times bigger there are ten times more guns.

Okay another example. I get that you don't know the facts and that is fine, you don't have to especially if you live in the UK so aren't involved in the debate. But why do you feel the need to comment if you don't know what you are talking about? I guess that's just the internet for you.

There are somewhere around 2 million guns in the UK and around 300 million in the US, that's many times the number per capita. Pretty much more than any other country in the world. You are about 40x more likely to be shot to death in the US than in the UK.

It's fine to not know that and admit it. It's not fine to just keep spouting nonsense for the sake of it. It doesn't reflect well on you and it wastes everyone's time.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:24 by Justanotherphotographer »

« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2015, 03:34 »
0
Yes and in many European countries, when a burglar comes through the window waving a gun,  you are supposed to use harsh language against his gun. God forbid if you should hit him over the head with something. He can then sue YOU for grevious bodily harm.

No matter how one twist and turn this question in the end nobody wins.
This is what I'm talking about. I live in the uk. Gun laws here are tight. Burglars here don't  have guns. Home owners don't have guns. In the US burglars and homeowners often do. You are far more likely to be shot by a burglar in the US with their gun or yours. You may be able to find a freak exception to this, just like you could find a freak instance of a mass shooting in Europe. There's a reason why these instances make global news. They are like zebras while American mass shootings are like horses. You are right that no one wins the overall  argument. Some people like having guns some don't.  Some people value the feeling of individual power enough to outweigh the extra actual deaths. That's up to you. But you can't just say random stuff like this without sounding odd to anyone not in the argument. You're  just  incorrect.

I live in London!  burglars don't have guns???  home owners don't have guns???  who are you kidding or do you live in a quiet suburb to London. I got my studio down in Chelsea just around from Cadogan-square and let me tell you I personally know four people down here who are gun-owners.
About a week back, two burglars were trying to rob a transport form some jewellry store, Police got a tip or something and they found two sawn-off shotguns and two 357 Magnums with pure factory-loads.

Thats just a taste of the REAL London for you, the centre of London. This is not just an American thing but considering the US population is ten times bigger there are ten times more guns.

Lol, I was born and raised in one of the most dangerous parts of London with one the highest murder rates/ lowest employment/ lowest average income in the UK. The idea that the centre of London is the "real" London is absolutely hilarious. Cadogan-Square?! Where a flat will set you back in excess of 3 million? You crack me up. I was raised in a house where there were shot guns and shells literally lying around. I used to show them off to my friends when I was 5 years old. One of those friends was in prison for armed robbery a couple of months after he dropped out of school at 16. Another for supplying him with class A drugs while he was in there. My opinions aren't based on ignorance. I just don't let my anecdotal personal experiences outweigh the facts.


Read my post properly. I said my studio is in Cadogan-square, I didn't say I lived there. Big difference. Well I suppose youre coming from something very dangerous then? funny but youre speaking of mutiple murders, drugs, prisons??

I thought you said earlier that London was so peaceful, nobody ever speaks about guns, knifes or anything. Oh well funny that.

Anyway the conversation is fruitless, people will still buy and own guns.


 

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