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Author Topic: GO Greece!  (Read 51135 times)

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« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2015, 17:22 »
+3
..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...

here: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage


Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694€ will fall to under 600€.

And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.


Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!

Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET


There is something very wrong with those informations. One says the Gross income for Portugal is 694€, and the other says that the Net is 681€.

I can assure you that a worker in Portugal does not pay only 13€ of taxes over income and Social Security.

Social Security alone, for workers working to an employer is 11% (employer pays another +-23% for each worker), which roughly reduces 70€ over the mentioned Gross 694€ sending the salary under the 600€. But then you still have to cut the tax over the income.

You also say that there are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages. According to data, only Latvia has a bigger gap. Portugal is in the second place equal to Romania and Bulgaria.

And if you consider that the extra hours are in most cases not paid, and you do it for free if you want to keep the job, and that this one is extremely precarious putting the worker at the mercy of the employer, the salary is in fact much lower since you should be earning more for the work you do.


I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.

Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians,  instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.

Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!

What about that?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 18:09 by Zero Talent »


« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2015, 19:21 »
+6
..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...

here: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage


Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694€ will fall to under 600€.

And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.


Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!

Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET


There is something very wrong with those informations. One says the Gross income for Portugal is 694€, and the other says that the Net is 681€.

I can assure you that a worker in Portugal does not pay only 13€ of taxes over income and Social Security.

Social Security alone, for workers working to an employer is 11% (employer pays another +-23% for each worker), which roughly reduces 70€ over the mentioned Gross 694€ sending the salary under the 600€. But then you still have to cut the tax over the income.

You also say that there are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages. According to data, only Latvia has a bigger gap. Portugal is in the second place equal to Romania and Bulgaria.

And if you consider that the extra hours are in most cases not paid, and you do it for free if you want to keep the job, and that this one is extremely precarious putting the worker at the mercy of the employer, the salary is in fact much lower since you should be earning more for the work you do.


I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.

Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians,  instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.

Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!

What about that?


Very responsible...

Lets check on Croatia last EU member...

Banks...sold out after EU and financial commissions orders , not a single one owned by the Republic Of Croatia anymore, all of those banks rejecting to respect court ruling against them ,openly  threatening with European Commission.

Energetic... sold out  sole Croatian oil company sold after instructions of same institutions for a 3 years profit

Telecommunications.... sold out largest monopolistic company sold by same principles for a shameful 2 years profit

Social Insurance... on best direction to become privatized together with health care


Dont have to mention that the main blackmail argument of EU to privatase all that was the huge loan created in 20 years while governments blindly followed EU instructions against its own people and sol out 90% of everything that was in peoples hand 20 years ago and bringing pure profit to the country.

Lets see where the loaned money went....

Mostly in private pockets to the people serving and cooperating with the ones that were giving those loans

The main instructions was obligation to invest in highways which are generating such looses now that the new government is about to give in concession to the same ones that were giving the loans for their construction against will of people and rejecting the obligation for referendum for which enough signatures were collected despite the insane referendum regulation that were implemented lately.


The same prime minister and his colleges who arranged all those deals is sitting in federal prison after he decided to stop obeying at the moment they asked him to trade territory.

All deals are still valid , will never reach courts and the official explanation is that we cannot change past , that a deal is a deal, the country has no options than to take more loans, unemployment is higher then ever and 10% of highly educated people are just waiting that work permits agreement gets ratified and to leave the country.

The day before EU referendum minister of finance in main daily news openly instruct  retirees to vote YES because there is a strong chance they will never see their well earned pensions if the country stays out of the union.

Constitution say that the country can loose its sovereignty only by will of absolute majority yet they changed the rules only for that referendum so relative majority of turnout of only 40% of people was enough for the move.


That my friend is called economic genocide over a nation.

Having in mind things like ignoring Irish votes and treaty of Lisbon its absolutely clear that this is operated by people who couldn't care less about democracy and responsibility of any kind that are using finances to enslave people.


What about that  ?


« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 19:31 by Lizard »

« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2015, 19:47 »
+1
The EU membership is the best thing that happened to these countries.
Politicians cannot change the laws to suit themselves and steal with impunity, anymore. They must adhere to the rigors of the EU club.
Some of them would love to go back to the "free-for-all" theft and corruption frenzy from the post-communist years. Some of them would love to buy for themselves, and for peanuts, the telecom, energy or banking industries, you seem to worry so much about. And they would also love to prevent all external competition, only to enrich themselves faster.
This is why they do their best to play the nationalistic card, blaming EU for making life harder for everybody, when in fact it is harder for them to steal, in the name of the "national interest"
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 21:47 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2015, 21:56 »
+6
The EU membership is the best thing that happened to these countries.
Politicians cannot change the laws to suit themselves and steal with impunity, anymore. They must adhere to the rigors of the EU club.
Some of them would love to go back to the "free-for-all" theft and corruption frenzy from the post-communist years. Some of them would love to buy for themselves and for peanuts, the telecom, energy or banking industries, you seem to worry so much about. And they would love to prevent all external competition.
This is why they do their best to play the nationalistic card, blaming EU for making life harder for everybody, when in fact it is harder for them to steal, in the name of the "national interest"

Nope actually its worst thing that ever happened to people and best thing that ever happened to political elite parasites.

External EU conglomerate competition already bought all that was worthy for peanuts buy bribing those politicians under the table and changing laws to suite their needs.

Political structure never changed indeed and highest party leaders and their families from communism time are the biggest pro Europeans at the time and they have never been richer by far. Its not s hard to check someones political history at all.

EU has exactly the same political structure as ex USSR and the highest part of them has never been elected by people at both systems. 

Political power of EU elite is being inherited by family roots in worst way in history that you cannot even compare with hardest communistic times.

The voting power of the people in Europe has never been so degraded in whole Europe history and its harder to have a referendum at this time than in communism.

And after all why are European leaders so starving to pull nations in their union ? Especially nations with financially unreasonable leaders and people ?

Isn't it easier to let them perish in ignorance a come back begging to be part of that great thing ?

Why did the ever start to give loans to such countries and "help" them ?   

Again that called economical genocide and nothing less than that.

And please don't start with the nationalism cliche because people who are among worst opponents of EU are well known anti nationalist in their countries and wider and have gone to huge problem because of that from both ends.

 

 

« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2015, 22:06 »
+1

You contradict yourself.
You admit that your politicians stole and enriched themselves during the pre-EU years.
Now, when EU tries to stop the corruption, theft and economical malpractice by asking for good governance principles and practices (as they tried with Greece, to stay on topic), you consider this the "worst thing that ever happened"

Obviously, for some reason, you either prefer the lawless, anarchic, post-communist years, or, you are nostalgic about the "glorious" communist period.

Anyway congratulations to Croatia for managing a much lower national debt than Greece!
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 23:19 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2015, 23:51 »
+3

You contradict yourself.
You admit that your politicians stole and enriched themselves during the pre-EU years.
Now, when EU tries to stop the corruption, theft and economical malpractice by asking for good governance principles and practices (as they tried with Greece, to stay on topic), you consider this the "worst thing that ever happened"

Obviously, for some reason, you either prefer the lawless, anarchic, post-communist years, or, you are nostalgic about the "glorious" communist period.

Would draw you the image if I could to get you realize I liked those time as much as I like this and the ones before...sleazy people always find a way to go to the top because the system basically never changes despite the illusion that it does. If it did you would notice that the society is lead by the most consent and capable based on science and innovation in favor of all and not by a third grade clerks based on economy which isn't even a science itself to favor very small minority of greedy billionaires.   

They were stealing then and they are stealing now and the ones running EU are no different at all.  No one of them is being kicked out of his place because he cannot afford to pay his bills that's for sure regardless of a system he ruled at.

And when you say good governance you mean lowering health and social security rights to the people, forcing them to work to the day they die and making them pay even more taxes on the enough tiny piece of their work they are already getting to pay the debt created by the people walking inside the European parliament and their sponsors that are financing the creation of those debts at the first place.

I would also talk about anarchy and politics with you but you would have to stand in another level of conciseness to get my point without trying to guess what I stand for and using any political system terms in the same sentence.

I surely have no reasons for nostalgia , I'm a pure dreamer and the world that I dream of surely doesn't stand at this pseudo fascistic grounds using communist principles and changing names of the terms to suit their needs and to suck the last drop of a small man for the corporate success hiding behind the great term of globalization.

Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders but when a modern corporate colonization movement takes the wheel of the "term" i can only wish that it will end like a soap bubble and Greece leaving the euro zone is nice step in that direction. Hope they will let them peacefully because I'm always for peace.

Peace :)     

 

« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 00:01 by Lizard »

« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2015, 23:56 »
+2
OK, John Lennon, peace :)

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2015, 00:00 »
0
 
OK, John Lennon, peace :)

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

 ;)

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2015, 02:04 »
+2
I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.

Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians,  instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.

Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!

What about that?

The numbers I've been mentioning are the ones in the news on the TV's and newspapers based in data from credible Portuguese institutions like the INE, ISCTE and others. And I could start pointing to portuguese documents. I'm pretty sure anyone here can read portuguese, right?

Many information coming from European institutions about Portugal are manipulated and don't ad-up with the ones from those Portuguese institutions, because the Portuguese government also feed manipulated information to the EU. Many parties in Portugal confront the governments with this situation, and the way they fake the statistics by using criteria that benefit their agenda.

But in Portugal the government doesn't lie to bring benefits to the Portuguese, but the contrary. The current government is a ultra-liberal government that has the objective to destroy the state and sell everything to their private friends. And if feeding certain type of information that will give them the backup from EU and the Troika to attack the people they will do it. In fact, the Prime-Minister said: "We will do what the memorandum (of the troika) says and go beyond!"

The same prime-minister that evaded huge taxes and Social Security contributions!!!

And no, this isn't just about Greece from the point someone says this is this discussion: "It isn't just Greece, so many countries have been living beyond their means for years now and I hope it all comes to an end soon."

This argument is being used in Europe to brainwash EU people against the simple citizen of some countries like Portugal, when it's the portuguese governments supported by France and Germany that have been destroying the country for decades with full knowledge of them.

And you mention that other countries don't have bailouts. And it's true!

I'm not denying the criminal management of the country by the corrupt Portuguese governments, and for any criticism you make I can point 100 because I live here! What bothers me is the European people being brainwashed against the simple portuguese citizen, like we're living luxurious lifes, in a pre-racist attitude.

The problem with Portugal is the destruction of the economy through EU actions (like opening the commercial borders to China and others) that sent to the unemployment hundreds of thousands of people that were able to pay for their bills in a timely manner, putting a huge stress on the Social Security system. Hundreds of thousands of people that contributed to it, suddenly started to draw money from unemployment benefits increasing the burden on the state and increasing the debt.

And also the funding of absurd investments like the Euro 2004, the three parallel highways between Lisbon and Porto, and the Public-Private Partnerships that cost billions to the state every year. And all this despite the protests of many, many people.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 02:33 by StockPhotosArt »

« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2015, 02:58 »
+3
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians,  instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.


I wouldn't be very reassured by that if I were Portuguese. In 2008, when it was discovered that Greece needed to adopt "responsible austerity" to repair its economy, the Greek debt to GDP percentage was 129.9 - a whisker less than the current rate you quote for Portugal. It has only risen to 180% because responsibly following the EU prescription has shrunk the economy by 30%. If you divide 130 by 0.7 (the percentage of the economy that hasn't disappeared) you get 186, which shows that destroying a third of the economy and leaving more than 50% of young people without jobs over a seven year period has succeeded in cutting the debt load in cash terms by 3%. And it's clearly going to be a lot harder to squeeze another 3% out of the country over the next few years because there is so much less of the economy left to squeeze.

A recent report showed that Greece was hit by a cyclical slowdown in the shipping industry after the global crash of 2008, with freight rates being squeezed. Shipping delivers something like a fifth of the country's gdp, so this was a major blow. The normal response to a cyclical decline in a major part of the economy would be to boost spending - as the UK did - until there is a recovery. Instead, the Troika chose that moment to impose austerity. The consequences of this were not impossible to see, the Indian representative on the IMF board warned that the policies they were embarking on could lead to a recessionary spiral resulting in a full-blown depresssion - which is what has happened.

A lot is made of the spendthift Greeks who want to live the high life by borrowing other people's money, and that they should learn to live in austerity, like the Germans do. But according to a top economist writing in The Guardian today the Germans don't go for austerity at all. Their economy is based on a high level of spending to develop the infrastructure - precisely opposite to the policies they say will save Greece - see the third assessment in this article http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/27/greek-bailout-extension-refused-panel-leading-economists-give-their-verdict

A lot is made of the rectitude of the Institutions, and how the Greeks should learn from them and abandon their evil ways. But it seems to be widely accepted that the ECB knew that Greece was massaging the figures but still let them in because the political project desired Greek entry and, anyway, the Germans and French had broken the rules too, so why shouldn't Greece?  They even elevated the chief Greek figure fiddler, Lucas Papademos, to the number-2 post in the ECB as a reward for his good work. If it's imagined that this was just because they didn't know of his fiddling, it's worth remembering that after the crisis erupted in 2010 - with the fiddle fully exposed - Papademos was made Prime Minister of Greece, with the Troika's enthusiastic support.

It's also worth thinking about how much the "feckless spendthrift Greeks" problem owes to the level of interest rates. If the Greeks were blessed with the same interest rates as the Germans (who you actually have to pay to get them to accept your cash) then, clearly, servicing debt would not be a problem. But when the markets want 20% or 30% return for lending then servicing the debt becomes impossible. In the 1990s, UK mortgage rates went above 16% (courtesy of the EU, as it happens), today they are maybe 6%. The difference in repayments on a 140,000 mortgage going from 6% to 16% is about £1,000 a month. How many people could cope with that sort of increase in their monthly mortgage payments without turning into "feckless spendthrifts, living high on the hog at other people's expense" who moaned about not wanting to repay all that interest on what they borrowed?

Of course, this doesn't exonerate Greece for its tax evasion, corruption and cronyism. I don't know how they will solve those problems when they seem to be pretty much built into the system. I suspect tax rates are set artificially high to make allowance for the expected degree of fiddling - so anybody paying taxes in full is actually getting over-taxed and in the case of businesses is probably becoming completely uncompetitive.

Hopefully, you will see that the situation is far more nuanced than the tabloid papers like to make out. The stuff I see a lot of people writing - and apparently believing - really is just a parody of the actual situation.

Titus Livius

« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2015, 03:01 »
+2
as a guy who traveled in more than 60 countries and lived for almost 20 yrs in several areas fo europe and asia and that in his youth was strongly in favour of nationalism and protectionism here's my observations :

1 - governments, banks, and of course the EU and NATO just owe us nothing and are busy into inventing new ways to squeeze us like a lemon, the whole system is designed to be unfair and to play with us like cat and mouse, like stick and carrot, and this is hammered in our heads since birth with public schools, public medias, and pro-government propaganda at all levels, there's no escape unless you think out of the box, in which case you'll still be allowed to voice your opinion but you won't get far as again the system is designed in such a way that any form of dissent is irrilevant in practical terms and will never become a realistic menace to the ruling elite.

2 - since this is the situation pretty much anywhere including in socialist and post socialist countries our only option is to be as mobile as possible.
as photographers we're allowed a lot of freedom and we can work and produce wherever we want thanks to 3G/4G and of course we can store our money in foreign banks, this is potentially the best of both worlds but there are of course pros and cons and a price to pay.

3 - "fighting" : there's nothing to fight anymore, first of all we own nothing, "our" country is barely the place where we're born and our ancestors were born, a geographical thing .. why feeling any loyalty or sense of pride ? their flag is not my flag, it's just the flag of the latest entity that won the war in 1945 .. the mono-culture they've imposed after 1945 is not my culture either, our local languages are also being destroyed by the dominance of english worldwide and in any industrial and intellectual field, and finally what . are you fighting for if you don't have any ownership if you don't own lands and villas, we're all europeans and these political borders are merely a historical thing that have little reason to exist in 2015.

3 - it doesn't make sense to live in the expensive parts of the West, we can produce where the cost of life is cheap and sell where the price is high.
there are also many other benefits in living outside the EUSSR but i won't bore you with the details, you must see by yourself and of course living abroad is not a thing for everyone so each to his own.

4 - people living in greece, portugal, etc ... should just plan to migrate elsewhere as soon as possible, the world is so big, plenty of better places both in the West and the East ... the EU can scr-ew us only as long as we live there, just leave for greener pastures and don't look back.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 03:03 by Titus Livius »

« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2015, 03:21 »
+2

What bothers me is the European people being brainwashed against the simple portuguese citizen, like we're living luxurious lifes, in a pre-racist attitude.

The other day, in the middle of squabbling with the Greeks, Juncker described the eurozone as  "the area of solidarity and prosperity".  Of course, my first assumption was that this was a line from a stand-up comic, but it seems that Juncker is so deluded that he believes it despite the evidence from Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy. I can't think of anything in Europe responsible for more division, nationalist sentiment and economic misery than the euro.

StockPhotosArt.com

« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2015, 04:31 »
+1

FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians,  instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.


Portugal's debt in 2008, at the start of the crisis was 72% of the GP. After the imposition of the Troika measures it has risen to 130%!!!

Is this a success? When hundreds of thousands of portuguese have now emigrated, especially the highly-qualified ones?

Then you have the government saying that the economy is recovering and that the unemployment is starting to drop. Sure, if unemployed people leave to foreign countries in droves, unemployment drops. Yet the truth is that there aren't more jobs, and in fact they are shrinking.


« Reply #88 on: June 28, 2015, 04:45 »
+2

4 - people living in greece, portugal, etc ... should just plan to migrate elsewhere as soon as possible, the world is so big, plenty of better places both in the West and the East ... the EU can scr-ew us only as long as we live there, just leave for greener pastures and don't look back.

... true - so called free world is now outside the borders of EU and USA...
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 04:49 by ferdinand »

Tror

« Reply #89 on: June 28, 2015, 04:59 »
+2
As I said in another post, the EU is actively ruining the substance of participating countries. Nothing is black and white, so yes, it brought good things (Schengen e.g.), but on the long run it makes the continent a difficult place to live or make business. Many leave or jump around from country to country in the hope to find a better live.

The Problem is not the Idea of EU, but the incompetent implementation. Too many mistakes had been made while laying out the legal and ideological basis of this project. And during the economic crisis they have proven that they are simply unwilling to correct those mistakes.

The so called "Austerity" is simply a tool for governments to please banks and investors while being able to call the People of Greece and other countries not willing to bleed "lazy" and blame them for their debts.

While I agree that the southern mentality is actually less productive I do not think that bleeding countries out, punishing them, defamating them in all TV channels et.c is the solution. Instead, there should have been done some research in economic structures and their relation with mentalities and cultures (if you like the other culture or not, we want to integrate, not to judge) and the design of the Euro and the principles of the EU should have shown flexibility to be able to allow every country the freedom they need to apply the traditional measures to compensate - in the case of Greece it was e.g. Inflation. Same goes e.g. for Italy. There had been a healthy industry and their economics had been fine. They compensated aspects of southern way of live as well through high inflation of the Lira, but in the end they had a good life....on the other hand, Germans e.g. suffer. They are not made for the current EU politics which floods markets with liquidity and provokes inflation. They suffer. They want a stable currency and deserve it and need it for their way of live. Who am I to judge?

Especially when you know how business is done outside of Europe, how salaries can be higher in so called third world countries then in a bunch of EU countries, when you see how easy a startup can emerge in HK whilst e.g. the Czech Republic is killing every Entrepreneur without a expensive and complicated legal entity with fraudulent and ridiculous taxes and social security obligation (fraudulent because the state offers almost nothing in return) then you wonder how long the EU can survive as a legal framework in a world which is every year more populated and competitive.

However, it is not all black on the EU....

In the case of Greece - they will have a hard time ahead, but on the long run I think it is good. As well as calculated by the People in Charge. They provoke the situation and want to leave the current regimen of financial imprisonment by named institutions.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 05:03 by Tror »

Titus Livius

« Reply #90 on: June 28, 2015, 05:09 »
+2
Is this a success? When hundreds of thousands of portuguese have now emigrated, especially the highly-qualified ones?

Then you have the government saying that the economy is recovering and that the unemployment is starting to drop. Sure, if unemployed people leave to foreign countries in droves, unemployment drops. Yet the truth is that there aren't more jobs, and in fact they are shrinking.

there's nothing wrong in moving to greener pastures and this is true also at the local level, just think about people wanting to enroll in university but living in the mountains, people skilled in a trade but their potential employers are all in the capital city .. no matter what, most of us will have to leave our little village sooner or later ...

what's the difference between moving 500km away in a big city and moving 1000km in a different EU country ?
like for instance portuguese or greeks moving to germany and UK ? no big deal, especially nowadays when we have cheap airplanes and fast trains and there's no need for silly red tape burocracy in order to get a job in another EU country as it was before the 90s.

leaving your friends and relatives back home ? so what ? the idea of doing the same job forever and living in the same place forever is ridicolous in 2015, smart people move where they're getting a higher ROI for their work, simple as that .. why being a doctor or an engineer in greece when you can get paid 3-4x times more in germany or UK ? is it worth it to emigrate ? yes and yes, of course it is, only losers will live their whole life in the same sh-itty village locked into a low paying job just because they can't find anything better in their area and they don't speak a foreign language and they're terrified at the idea of being alone in a foreign country.

moreover, what is greece or portugal doing for their own citizens ? more taxation, more burocracy, less benefits, pension cuts ... there's just no point giving their country any loyalty or money, ethnic or nationalist pride should be kept for our family and friends and eventually for our city or origin, anything else is just nonsense and has been abused by the elites since forever ... even the idea of being "european" .. i mean in the end we're just whites and europe is just a geographic notion, we're white even in other continents or on the moon, doesn't change anything in being white and european and from city xyz and from that specific rich or poor neighborhood and carrying that surname and the whole mumbo jumbo.

it's just you and me and ultimately we only live once.
if country xys is going down the drain you better leave the ship before it sinks and good riddance, plenty of other countries around welcoming us with open arms as long as we carry some skills and money !

it's only the parasites who are now terrified of their governments' imminent default or economic bust, they're the ones with no skills and no hope but sorry guys being weak is a choice and so is being strong, they reap what they sow and they will pay the price for their non accountability that they enjoyed in the past.

nobody owe us anything in this world, it's up to us to play our cards as best as we can, especially if you've not much to put on the table and if you're not born rich.
don't blame the cultural dumbing down imposed by the elites, blame yourself for being dumb and believing their BS, turning off the TV is a good start for instance.

greece going bankrupt will change nothing as far as i'm concerned, they will adapt to the new economic scenario and act accordingly, what they call now "poverty" is still light years better than the real poverty i've seen in third world countries so i'm hardly impressed by all these horror stories about greeks begging for food in Athens or rumming in the garbage bins ... and this is even more true for the greeks now assaulting their banks to empty their bank accounts .. they had all the time to do it in the last 2-3 years but guess what will wait till the last day to save their money, too late as some banks have already announced they will close and good luck with that ..

Semmick Photo

« Reply #91 on: June 28, 2015, 05:16 »
+2
The countries are not being punished.  They are being bailed out at a cost.

And Paul, speaking for myself, I  don't think my comments are comical. Just my opinion on the situation. Greeks are fully responsible for the sh.it they're in. I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. Maybe fuelled by the fact that during  a 24 hr stop over in Athens every single person i had to pay for a service or product scammed me. I was driven around Athens in a taxi going in circles to raise the fare. A barman charing me 18 guilders for  a can of beer. Another taxi driver raising his fare at 22:50 when it should be at 23:00. The woman at the airport making us pay 100 guilders for a visa i didn't need. Corrupt bunch and they need to get sorted out.

Titus Livius

« Reply #92 on: June 28, 2015, 05:16 »
+4
Especially when you know how business is done outside of Europe, how salaries can be higher in so called third world countries then in a bunch of EU countries, when you see how easy a startup can emerge in HK whilst e.g. the Czech Republic is killing every Entrepreneur without a expensive and complicated legal entity with fraudulent and ridiculous taxes and social security obligation (fraudulent because the state offers almost nothing in return) then you wonder how long the EU can survive as a legal framework in a world which is every year more populated and competitive.

again, the solution is to migrate in countries where taxation is low and you're welcomed as an investor.
waiting for a miracle in your own village is silly, nothing will ever change too much in most of the EU, and of course how are you supposed to compete with asian producers who have low taxation and cheap workforce ? you can't, unless you stick with high-end products and that's exactly what we're doing in EU but it wont last forever, japan and korea are already ahead in high-tech and much more, soon even china will invade the few markets where we're still leaders, what's next ? we know very well what's next and there's nothing we can do apart moving to asia as well, the EU is rotten to the core and there's no hope it can be fixed because the whole system is not designed to sustain the unfair competition we're facing from asian producers and the social-democracy ideology is a dead man walking now that the sh-it is hitting the fan ... first it's greece and tomorrow will be france and UK as well, just a matter of time !


« Reply #93 on: June 28, 2015, 05:23 »
+3

4 - people living in greece, portugal, etc ... should just plan to migrate elsewhere as soon as possible, the world is so big, plenty of better places both in the West and the East ... the EU can scr-ew us only as long as we live there, just leave for greener pastures and don't look back.

... true - so called free world is now outside the borders of EU and USA...

Many of the people who can leave Greece and get work elsewhere have gone. The trouble is that this means the young, skilled, well-educated are leaving - doctors, nurses, IT specialists, probably even down to bricklayers.  Left behind are the old, the unskilled and the unemployable. Who is going to pay for their upkeep? And what sort of country will you rebuild on these foundations?

« Reply #94 on: June 28, 2015, 05:27 »
+5
What I find very interesting about the puritanical "so you sow, so shall you reap" brigade is that may of those with this attitude are the same folks complain about the "unfairness" of the big bad agencies who reject their work or pay them buttons.  The agencies are commercial bodies with no considerations other than the bottom line.  The bad decisions that created the situation in Greece were not made by the folks who are suffering the most.


Is it fair to say then that, anyone who bought into the whole MS thing because they felt money was to be made, and now find their income eroded by increased competition and low prices are to blame for their situation? 


Have some empathy guys because, like the Greeks, most of us have zero control of events that can land us in the *, and it could happen to any of us.

Titus Livius

« Reply #95 on: June 28, 2015, 05:27 »
+1
... true - so called free world is now outside the borders of EU and USA...

absolutely.
i experienced it first hand since the last 15 years and i've seen things that would be unthinkable in the EU and US.





Tror

« Reply #96 on: June 28, 2015, 05:29 »
+2

Titus Livius

« Reply #97 on: June 28, 2015, 05:30 »
0
Left behind are the old, the unskilled and the unemployable. Who is going to pay for their upkeep? And what sort of country will you rebuild on these foundations?

America, because they're responsible for the Greek military Junta in the 70s and actual greece is a consequence of that, not to mention the whole idea was about keeping greece out from the soviet sphere so they had to pay the greeks' loyalty generously and of course it got out of hand and now it's too late to complain, what's done is done !


Semmick Photo

« Reply #98 on: June 28, 2015, 05:32 »
+1
Greece cooked the books. They we're in a hole and needed EU money to survive. Of course debts were created. Its called a bail out. We never should have. We should have cut them out there and then. They're not held hostage. Nonsense. They can leave whenever they want. But they don't because of their greedy nature

Titus Livius

« Reply #99 on: June 28, 2015, 05:33 »
+2
Corrupt bunch and they need to get sorted out.

exactly, but as an experienced traveler i would also say that if you got ripped off so bad you must be ashamed too because you forgot to do your homeworks and to collect information about the scams and ripoffs going on in the place you were visiting.

if you think you had it so bad don't even try places like Mumbai or Saigon or Caracas ...



 

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