I wonder who the little Englanders are going to blame for a possible recession and the loss of trade volume and jobs that will happen. They can't blame the EU anymore when they are out. So who's next? The Indians maybe? Or the Muslims? Immigrants in general?

You are asking that because trade goes just in one direction, and EU companies dont give a s..t about that market ?
I see that they have a pretty decent starting point in future negotiations with their GDP (nominal) per capita being high above the EU average 

Also Norway or Switzerland are doing pretty well without giving their sovereignty in hands of  group of people never elected by no one, or if you prefer to call them by the name they gave them self ( European commission ). Compete print of the ex USSR model btw, and we all know how that ended   

Possible recession you say ?  Well luckily there are other possibilities with equal, if not higher chances to happen     

Wasnt it gold before ?

They probably allow it from kryptonite and above when I reach emerald

So people are still buying stories about different sides in high politics knowing that governments budgets are nothing more than corporate or private properties and the countries them self are registered companies ?

Chill down, they are just picking a face thats gonna stare at you from the screen more frequently announcing decision which will empty your pockets more explaing how you are gonna benefit from that in the future. 

Quote from: Chichikov on January 18, 2016, 11:26

Quote from: mlwp on January 18, 2016, 11:03

Pets are considered to be personal property so a release is needed.

A pet is a living being, and a living being cannot be the property of somebody (from my point of view).
If people really consider them as friends or companions pets belong to themselves.

Some agencies determine pets to be personal property and require a release. I think that's what mlwp was saying. But pets are personal property. Otherwise why do you have to license them like a car?

No they are not, and you dont have to licence nothing nowhere if you are determed not to do so. If a moronic group of people ( in my personal opinion ) claim so, one doesn't have to agree nor obey.

Not so long ago humans were widely considered property also, and they are mostly not anymore because a smaller group of people decided not to agree.

Animals are living beings experiencing reality just like humans.

Quote from: Lizard on July 10, 2015, 08:12

Quote from: etienjones on July 10, 2015, 05:08

In a few years we all will look back on these years as the good old days.  The TTIP will succeed and the Corporate Oligarchs will convert Europe into something unrecognizable to what it is today.  Under the slogan of fair trade there will be an attack on environmental laws, workers issues, even cultural differences.  I have been to 3 demonstrations here in Munich but I know the New Aristocracy will keep pushing until they get what they want.  Say hello to Monsanto and the false God of corporate efficiency.

These trade agreements have destroyed the American middle class and TTIP is coming to Europe in all its glory . . . .

Even if I fully agree with you with and we see same image of the plan of our future and even its bad like it is, there can be positive things that will rise from that for sure.

Firstly the awareness of people is rising at very high rate, regarding politicians dirty plans and corporate attempts to completely take the wheel of the world. Movements like Ubuntu are growing like mushroom after rain and 20 years ago only few rares even talked about the problem that will show up or already are.

The more successful the are in implementing things like TTIP more faster their ship will sunk because it benefits only a small minority of people while the other side will go down exponentially faster and the agony of loosing middle class and turning them into poor people will be way shorter and people will be forced to change their life styles and to turn in more sustainable direction of partially or fully growing their own food, getting back to lost habits of exchanging favors instead of paying for them and so on...

Due to their insane claims about climate with goal of rising the prices of energetic people will be forced turn to alternatives that are totally unused in their capacity today or even vast majority of people don't even know they exist. 

I totally believe that Leonardo Da Vinci was right and that the world will start seeing good times when opposite trends of migration starts happening, from big cities towards rural areas because in cities people are totally dependable on the system they live under.

On one hand you consider yourself a dreamer (like John Lennon):

Quote

Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders

On the other hand, when an agreement is about to be made in that direction, meant to overcome artificial borders and open up the trade to more competition, you are against it.

Make up your mind, my friend! You can't have one without the other.

Competition means progress for the society, even if some must pay the price for being inflexible in fast moving world. Don't let yourself influenced by those doom and gloom, end-of-the-world scenarios from cheap sci-fi movies.

Closed borders and protectionism mean stagnation or decay.

Once again, you will never understand what Im saying in that state of mind because your inner translator is set on different level.

You are speaking in favor of open trade and free economy...yet you are defending the system that encouraging totally opposite values behind the mask...

For example...strong countries economies entered the union in the early stage to get the best starting positions and a place to set the rules whic are NOT equal for all.

Politicians of newest EU members were corrupted and force to sign certain terms during accession negotiations that are degrading their country positions in the union and favorite the early members.

There are thousands of exporting and producing limits on certain goods for certain countries involved that the open market is all but not FREE and people are forced to stop producing things they produced for decades because the market is owned by old union members who never had to obey such terms to enter the union anyway.

You want examples...

Well the best one is that are killing small fisherman's by insane laws that they have to pay same fixed fee no matter how much fish they produce which are too high for their business and openly financing them to quit their business, while inviting huge companies fleets which are destroying seas and producing huge amount of food while paying that exact fee that goes for small individual family business. 

That is not a free market my friend , that's fixed market to favor corporations of early union members and export limits are set to protect established economies so they can firstly destroy and then buy any new competition for pennies end enlarge their market on those new territories. Corporation are invading those new markets without any rules while domestic businesses are held to spread them self on new markets with exporting and production limits.

Limits and borders are limits and borders no matter if they happen on paper or at actual border and limiting any competition on producing or exporting with negotiation contracts signed by corrupted politicians are undemocratic tools that define FIXED economy hidden in term of free market.


Free market would be the one with no limits for anyone so that demand,price and quality of the product play major role on "who will survive" and not setting the rules on the paper that favor some and limit someone else based on the country that he lives in.   

 

The Eu and especially the euro made a huge difference to our business, we both exported and imported much more easily. The whole euro zone became our market and we started working with many new suppliers from other countries that we didn�t consider before, because we didn�t want to always be dependent on the various exchange rates.

I don�t see any other country other than Greece interested in leaving the euro or attacking all of Europe so aggressively.



A country cannot run on other people�s money forever. They need to show solidarity with their own country and if they don�t do it, nobody else will.

The EU's Dirty Secret: Germany Is The Biggest Welfare Recipient There Is


The standard way of thinking about the eurozone is this: Germany is strong, France is a bit less strong, and everyone else mooches off their strength.

Certainly that's how it's appeared lately, post-crisis, but that's thinking way too small.

Floyd Norris at NYT sheds some light on what's actually been the case, going back to the creation of the Euro: Germany is the biggest beneficiary around, and everyone else has been losers.

Basically, because periphery countries like Portugal and Greece and Spain are not able to devalue their currencies to a point where they have competitive labor forces, Germany is the huge winner.

Its trade balance has surged from being in a small deficit pre-Euro to a huge surplus post euro.




Sans euro, Germany's neighbors would be far more competitive than they are now. Also, if we went back to each country having their own currencies, the Deutsche Mark would surge beyond where the euro is now, making Germany even less competitive as BMWs became less affordable for everyone else.

The workers of Spain, Italy, France and everyone else are crippled to benefit the Germans, and its insistence on a strong Euro. Also it should be noted that pre-crisis, the huge consumption booms in countries like Greece were another subsidy to the Germans.

It's ironic, then, that German politicians are giving Merkel such a hard time about bailing out her peers. It seems like a classic case of overvaluing the seen -- direct transfers to other countries -- over the unseen, the pernicious effects of currency system that doesn't work.



http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-benefits-from-the-eurozone-2011-4

Quote from: Lizard on June 30, 2015, 14:58

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 30, 2015, 14:49

Quote from: Lizard on June 29, 2015, 23:09

Well as you started writing in "GO Greece" topic and upsetting people which are in "GO Greece" mood the only one that can fit into troll definition among two of us  is you isnt that so ?

But I wont be doing any accusations that you are one of the of Merkel-Schultz hypnotized zombies and i sincerely believe that one day you will find strength and open your eyes 

Peace

It is perfectly normal to say "Don't Go Greece" in a "Go Greece" topic while backing-up statements with facts and documents, instead of emotions, speculations and conspiracy theories.

I rather think that trolls are those who follow their own agenda, by bringing their omnipresent Anti-EU, Anti-NATO, Anti-US, Anti-democracy fixations, Ukraine, the ruble and the Russian customs union in a "Go Greece" Topic.

Sorry you were trolling and started to mention Putin at first place and if anti European Union statement in society with freedom of speech  means trolling to you then you need help.

Peace

Wrong.
Your friend, Titus mentioned Putin first, then the russian customs union, NATO and the ruble in the same sentence. Then something about the Americans helping Greece to stay outside the soviet influence.
Then you go and post NATO maps in a "Go Greece" post, after having the same NATO fixation in a topic about the commercial photography in EU:

Quote

You are writing about removing possibilities of future wars, man they got us at the gates of the next one deploying nuclear bases all around the place at this same time

You are of course free to rant against EU on any given topic opened on this forum.

And some "help" clarifications: those brainwashed by decades of socialist propaganda are the ones who need help. Unfortunately, it takes at least a generation to reboot some mindsets.
Those unable to stand on their own feet in a free economy, those who consider themselves entitled to government handouts, those who expect their government to give them jobs, those who expect their debts erased , those who expect to be paid no matter how efficient, competitive or productive their work is, those unwilling to move to find a better job, those are the people who need "help". Help to realize that they need to reboot their thinking...

Firstly of all you were quoting me...

Next...your mindset its obviously not able to comprehend my political standings and you keep loosing yourself trying to sort me into a category... you can never understand it with your current mindset trapped in the illusion that there is a honest political solution because there is not.

Will just quote Einstein on that : "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it" and that's about it.

You my friend are holding the side that is creating problems for all people including yourself and you highest opponents are keeping the balance on the other side doing the same as you keep accusing each others and your political opponents puppet idols for the current state and as Tesla was saying, you are really looking ironic and desperate from wider perspectives.

I guess would probably be ok in that case to unite corporations with interest in Greece and finance and organize a new revolution in and implement a new EU controlled puppets government putting the "democratic" will of a nation at second plan. They obviously voted wrongly and the Ukrainian scenario should be repeated. What a hell lets say that the elections were a set up. Its better for them , we all know it and we have long term experience in that field anyway.

Then lets scare them, let them clearly know that if the vote in anti-European direction on referendum that the revenge will be huge. Yes lets play on fear card and show them a though fist of democracy. After all don't they remember it was all ok when they had pro European government which never played any role in any of those insane loans that they took which scientifically proved CANNOT be repaid, not in Greece case only but in case of basically all countries in the world. Nobody will pay those loans off...NEVER. Hoever thinks Italy will ever repay the loans is in huge mistake, its way way more likely that the country will stop existing as such.

Somebody needs to step in front of those hungry people waiting for their medicines which are long gone and openly say  that in case that they don't accept to work until death with 35 taxes and without basic social rights somewhere someone will loose 2% of something.

Man we are pushing the new loans in their pockets to repay the old ones and make them bigger and they dare to reject that.  Are they aware that they wont even repay the next loans but their children will and they wont be able anyway so all they got to loose is more social rights for the generations that are not even born.


And I wouldn't base my opinion on payed  internet posts of opponent party youth anyway because anyone with at least piece of a brain can guess the will of majority and the outcome of incoming referendum and EU knows it. Thats why they are acting like fly with diarrhea.



   

Quote from: Titus Livius on June 28, 2015, 18:08

while we're busy talking about greece nobody is looking Ukraine which is the real dead man walking and can't even pay the salaries without begging to their euro/american puppetmasters.

Obviously, Putin's troll army is pushing his divide and conquer, salami tactics agenda on all fronts.
Greece is, probably, another victory for him after the destruction of Ukraine. Rejoice Titus! (or Titov?)

Quote from: Lizard on June 27, 2015, 21:56

You contradict yourself.
You admit that your politicians stole and enriched themselves during the pre-EU years.
Now, when EU tries to stop the corruption, theft and economical malpractice by asking for good governance principles and practices (as they tried with Greece, to stay on topic), you consider this the "worst thing that ever happened"

Obviously, for some reason, you either prefer the lawless, anarchic, post-communist years, or, you are nostalgic about the "glorious" communist period.

Would draw you the image if I could to get you realize I liked those time as much as I like this and the ones before...sleazy people always find a way to go to the top because the system basically never changes despite the illusion that it does. If it did you would notice that the society is lead by the most consent and capable based on science and innovation in favor of all and not by a third grade clerks based on economy which isn't even a science itself to favor very small minority of greedy billionaires.   

They were stealing then and they are stealing now and the ones running EU are no different at all.  No one of them is being kicked out of his place because he cannot afford to pay his bills that's for sure regardless of a system he ruled at.

And when you say good governance you mean lowering health and social security rights to the people, forcing them to work to the day they die and making them pay even more taxes on the enough tiny piece of their work they are already getting to pay the debt created by the people walking inside the European parliament and their sponsors that are financing the creation of those debts at the first place.

I would also talk about anarchy and politics with you but you would have to stand in another level of conciseness to get my point without trying to guess what I stand for and using any political system terms in the same sentence.

I surely have no reasons for nostalgia , I'm a pure dreamer and the world that I dream of surely doesn't stand at this pseudo fascistic grounds using communist principles and changing names of the terms to suit their needs and to suck the last drop of a small man for the corporate success hiding behind the great term of globalization.

Im fist for globalization, I see no difference between any man whatever language he speaks or whatever paper they made him carry in his pocket, respect them all equally couldn't care less for countries and borders but when a modern corporate colonization movement takes the wheel of the "term" i can only wish that it will end like a soap bubble and Greece leaving the euro zone is nice step in that direction. Hope they will let them peacefully because I'm always for peace.

Peace      

 

Quote from: StockPhotosArt on June 27, 2015, 17:02

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 27, 2015, 15:32

Quote from: StockPhotosArt on June 27, 2015, 14:35

Quote from: spike on June 27, 2015, 13:22

..and all somebody has to do is link the median wage instead of the average...

here: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_European_countries_by_median_wage

Those values are GROSS income. In Portugal, after the huge taxes (among the highest in Europe) the NET income drops considerably and those 694� will fall to under 600�.

And if you consider we pay some of the highest prices for energy, fuel and everything else there's not much money left for anything.

Here is your net income. There are 10 EU countries behind Portugal and Greece!

Portugal has 8177/12 = 681/month NET

There is something very wrong with those informations. One says the Gross income for Portugal is 694�, and the other says that the Net is 681�.

I can assure you that a worker in Portugal does not pay only 13� of taxes over income and Social Security.

Social Security alone, for workers working to an employer is 11% (employer pays another +-23% for each worker), which roughly reduces 70� over the mentioned Gross 694� sending the salary under the 600�. But then you still have to cut the tax over the income.

You also say that there are other countries with a wider gap between min and max wages. According to data, only Latvia has a bigger gap. Portugal is in the second place equal to Romania and Bulgaria.

And if you consider that the extra hours are in most cases not paid, and you do it for free if you want to keep the job, and that this one is extremely precarious putting the worker at the mercy of the employer, the salary is in fact much lower since you should be earning more for the work you do.

I tend to believe Eurostat numbers a little more than some "wikiland" numbers.

Anyway, the topic is not about Portugal, but about Greeks, living on borrowed money, way above their possibilities.
FYI, Portugal's national debt is 130% vs Greece 179% GDP. Portugal might still have a chance to avoid the a "Greek crisis", if the Portuguese people will elect and keep in power fiscally responsible politicians,  instead of populist gamblers like Tsipras.

Since you mentioned it, I am not aware of any debt bailout requested by Romanians, Bulgarians, etc despite living much harsher lives than the Greeks!
And Romania has a national debt of only 38% for a net income of 172 euros/month.
And Bulgaria even 19% for a median net income of 243 euros/month!
And more or less, the same goes for all the other 10 countries having a lower standard of life than Greece or Portugal. All of them are much more fiscally responsible!

What about that?

Very responsible...

Lets check on Croatia last EU member...

Banks...sold out after EU and financial commissions orders , not a single one owned by the Republic Of Croatia anymore, all of those banks rejecting to respect court ruling against them ,openly  threatening with European Commission.

Energetic... sold out  sole Croatian oil company sold after instructions of same institutions for a 3 years profit

Telecommunications.... sold out largest monopolistic company sold by same principles for a shameful 2 years profit

Social Insurance... on best direction to become privatized together with health care


Dont have to mention that the main blackmail argument of EU to privatase all that was the huge loan created in 20 years while governments blindly followed EU instructions against its own people and sol out 90% of everything that was in peoples hand 20 years ago and bringing pure profit to the country.

Lets see where the loaned money went....

Mostly in private pockets to the people serving and cooperating with the ones that were giving those loans

The main instructions was obligation to invest in highways which are generating such looses now that the new government is about to give in concession to the same ones that were giving the loans for their construction against will of people and rejecting the obligation for referendum for which enough signatures were collected despite the insane referendum regulation that were implemented lately.


The same prime minister and his colleges who arranged all those deals is sitting in federal prison after he decided to stop obeying at the moment they asked him to trade territory.

All deals are still valid , will never reach courts and the official explanation is that we cannot change past , that a deal is a deal, the country has no options than to take more loans, unemployment is higher then ever and 10% of highly educated people are just waiting that work permits agreement gets ratified and to leave the country.

The day before EU referendum minister of finance in main daily news openly instruct  retirees to vote YES because there is a strong chance they will never see their well earned pensions if the country stays out of the union.

Constitution say that the country can loose its sovereignty only by will of absolute majority yet they changed the rules only for that referendum so relative majority of turnout of only 40% of people was enough for the move.


That my friend is called economic genocide over a nation.

Having in mind things like ignoring Irish votes and treaty of Lisbon its absolutely clear that this is operated by people who couldn't care less about democracy and responsibility of any kind that are using finances to enslave people.


What about that  ?

Hopefully the trend will move on other countries and this banksters ruled union will end like a soap bubble.

And pushing money into someones pockets, blackmailing him how to spend it and leading him into investing to save their institutions and managers that are swimming in bonuses and than pulling it back trough normal people who never seen any benefit from it all trough corrupted leaders is not helping, that is criminal.

I dont have a loan, never want to have one, I was aggressively offered one countless times trough their financial  institutions that Im obligated to use by law implemented by their corrupted serves and please righteous financial institutions of this world dont give a dime to my government, that's not my loan , I don't want to pay it off, never asked for it and if it means stone age and starting from 0 then so be it.