And I know that we cannot directly perceive the whole reality, as for example we can only perceive electro-magnetic radiation of  certain wave lengths, but from what I understand, this is not what he means and he rejects also what we can measure with scientific instruments as reality.

Whatever you measure with scientific instruments and the instruments themselves are filtered through the screen of our perceptions. Scientific instruments didn't exist at the beginning of evolution. By the time we invented them, evolution had already given us the virtual reality headset or the desktop interface as he calls it. So, the instruments we create are part of that interface, and do not exist outside of it. You can measure aspects of the perceived reality, but the act of measurement will be a perception in itself. Evolution showed us only the categories of things important for our survival. Anything else is hidden. It is difficult to build instruments for aspects of reality that you can't even imagine.

Quote from: LDV81 on August 02, 2023, 08:52

Quote from: Big Toe on August 02, 2023, 07:50

I'd rather attend a meeting of the Flat Earth Society than deal with that nonsense.

In other words, in the absence of arguments, you resort to insults.

I feel free to call out obvious nonsense and I'm not inclined to get in an argument about his guys notions, because if you reject the concept of reality itself, then we have no common ground and any argument is futile.

Where does he reject the concept of reality? Hoffman never did it.
You just assume that your perceptions are the reality. And he has evidence and a mathematical model supporting that it doesn't have to be the case.
There is a reality beyond the perceptions, but the perceptions are not an accurate image of the reality.

Quote from: LDV81 on July 28, 2023, 07:58

Quote from: Big Toe on July 28, 2023, 05:40

You can theorize about loopholess in the theory of relativity all you want, but I don't think they exist and in the end it is just wishful thinking that there may be any, much less loopholes that make it feasible for an object the size of a star ship to exceed the speed of light and that without using forces that would destroy the starship and kill the travellers.

Imagine explaining to people living 500 years ago the idea of a plane, made of heavy steel, taking onboard hundreds of people and flying them to the other side of the world within hours. They would say similar things to you: "it is not possible, it is insane, only birds and insects can fly because they are lightweight etc." That idea would be beyond their paradigms. And there you have people like Leonardo da Vinci, who thought flying machines were possible. He could conceive things beyond the current paradigms. Most likely, he failed to build a working flying machine, not to mention something like a modern plane, but he was right about the idea of flying in a machine. He was a visionary, even if his contemporaries would laugh at some of his ideas.

This is not at all comparable. 500 years ago people had basically no knowledge at of phyiscs as we understand it.

Since we began to really accumulate scientific knowledge, new knowledge was in most cases incremental, not really fundamentally replacing old knowledge, at least not basic knowledge like how things move. Relativity did not significantly change our understanding about how things move at non-relativistic speeds and quantum mechanics did not change how macroscopic objects behave. It is very unlikely that future discoveries will change the fact that object with rest mass cannot reach or exceed the speed of light.

It is outrageously arrogant to reject the possibility of any significant paradigm shifts. A classic Plato's Cave attitude...

We only started to accumulate knowledge that can explain a tiny part of the wider reality that evolution has made accessible to us. Beyond that, we don't know much. The model of metaphysical materialism can never explain how certain configurations of atoms gain self-awareness or perceive qualia. That is the end of the road for materialism.
Just watch some interviews with Donald Hoffman or read stuff published by the scientists from the Essentia Foundation to realize how deep the rabbit hole goes.

so? how  do you know any facts were revealed behind closed doors? were you there?

Watch the hearing yourself. Some very specific questions were asked. And Grusch's answers were that he would gladly provide detailed answers and documentation right after the public part of the hearing ends. Either the Congress organized some clown show, or there is at least some truth in what Grusch said.

what are their results of those other investigations? just a report on an imnvestigaion doesn't mean it found anything you claim. what actual evidence has been presented to show extraterrestrial visits other than hearsay that a friend saw something?

Did you expect that Grusch would show up with someone like Mr Spock or Chewbacca at the hearing? He was ready to provide in a secure environment addresses where the craft can be found, as well as a list of names of people who are friendly to the investigation/disclosure and those who are "hostile". Check mate, if true.

He seems to be playing by the book and doesn't reveal classified info related to the security of the US publicly. Fair enough, as far as I'm concerned. If that additional classified info was true/credible, we should see further developments in the near future. I am looking forward to it.

-- i've never questioned the honesty of most reports; but just because someone has a firm belief, and testifies under oath  is irrelevant in terms of providing facts.  sworn testimony from eyewitnesses has resulted in deaths of many who were innocent.

If he has really provided proof that the US government has killed people to keep the thing secret, that is really serious. We will see.

and your continued descent into ad hominem attacks on what you call denialists just shows how weak your claims are. 

I think you are over-sensitive or are imagining things that are not there.

Do you even know what "my claims" and my position are? I have never claimed that what Grusch says must be true. I listed three possibilities that I see. But it is an interesting and important topic. And the fact that someone in Grusch's positition has come out with such bold claims is literally an earthquake in the field of UFOs. For now, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and I am looking forward to further developments.

And my main position in this thread can be summarized shortly: "guys, open your minds and broaden your horizons, so that you don't experience an ontological shock when the paradigm shifts".

Open-minded skepticism is great, but in this thread I see lots of denialism combined with ridicule. You don't need to accept the extraterrestrial, extratemporal, ultraterrestrial or interdimensional hypotheses. I honestly don't know if any of them is true. But if you strictly reject them, then the onus is on you to try to come up with a better explanation for the reports of unexplained anomalies. And if we stick just to the unexplained cases officially presented by the US military, simply dismissing those reports is very lame. 

No, I do not. Inspriration by Star Trek is fine. However, I cannot take the Alcubierre drive particularly serious since it requires the existence of exotic matter or other forms of negative energy fields and even if they would be found, you would still have to produce them in large quantaties, which is unlikely to be feasible.

It is one thing to theorize about the theoretical possibility of such a drive and another to consider it as a pratical solution to the problem of interstellar travel, even for alien civilisations.

Yeah, at the moment it is certainly not feasible, no question about it. But that's not the point. The point is that you can think of loopholes in the theory of relativity. You don't violate any existing laws, and still reach the destination faster than light. Alcubierre drive is just one example of a loophole. It is conceivable that an advanced civilization has come up with other, possibly better loopholes including such that they can implement and use.

An Alcubierre drives is a kind of warp drive, from what I have read. I never thought I would say that, but: Have you been watching too much Star Trek?

Are you ridiculing the theoretical work of a serious physicist, just because it happens to have been inspired by Star Trek? Then go back to the books of Jules Verne and see how science-fiction can sometimes anticipate future technological advancements. Of course, people without imagination will never invent anything.

From what I've heard of the congressional hearings so far they have been vastly underwhelming.  It seems to be three "whistleblowers" who all believe that we have been visited by aliens, and at least one of them said they know 40 other guys who swear on their grandmothers' graves that they have seen alien craft and/or biologicals.  And that is it - no proof of any kind, no documentation, no testimony from any of the people who supposedly have seen these things except second- or third-hand reports.  And they can't say any more because it's classified.  So what is the point?  It all seems like a monumental waste of time to me.

So, you are relying on hearsay? Watch the hearing yourself. Documentation, including the names of involved people and addresses, has been provided to the Inspector General. Additional details have been provided behind closed doors, as I understand it. A guy who had been conducting an official investigation in this field testified under oath before the Congress. Do you grasp the magnitude of this event? That investigation had been his job, he just presented his findings in the Congress, under oath.

If this was some kind of farce, some kind of prank, then you, dear Americans, have some serious issues in your country and must ask yourself some serious questions.

I have a feeling that even if a giant UFO landed in front of the White House and aliens came out, many denialists would still deny it, because it doesn't fit into their world view. It would be "a trick of the light", or the infamous "swamp gas".

You need to have evidence, that can be confirmed, peer review, repeatable events, data collection, and some serious skepticism from even the people who want these things to be true, to prove they are true. Not just a wish and a dream.

We have no evidence that UAP or UFOs are alien visitors.

1. You don't need evidence to formulate a hypothesis. A hypothesis is just an educated guess. You start with a hypothesis and then try to either refute it or confirm it. Otherwise, we would still be dwelling in caves.

2. Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The fact that the general public hasn't seen compelling evidence yet doesn't have to mean that such evidence doesn't exist. As long as it is classified, you probably won't see it.

3. There may very well be plenty of evidence if what Grusch says is true. He just told the Congress about "non-human biologics".

4. You are free to formulate your own hypotheses explaining reports of craft that apparently defy the current mainstream understanding of physics.


"Alien visitors" (in the sense: "extraterrestrials") are just one hypothesis; there are others, too. I am open to them, unless they have been refuted or don't make sense. It doesn't mean that I accept them as gospel. If they are proven wrong, it's fine with me. I just don't think all the reports about the phenomenon are hoaxes or hallucinations. Some of them: yes, but quite a few seem credible.

With the current technology, it would take us more than 50.000 years to reach the nearest solar system, Proxima Centauri, which probably does not have a plant with life. Even with far more advanced technology the voyage would very likely take at least a numer of decades, if not centuries.

1. "The current technology" is the key word here. And that "current technology" is only a few generations ahead of the bicycle... In the grand scheme of things, it is probably incredibly primitive.

2. Einstein's physics superseded Newtonian physics. It is conceivable that for sufficiently advanced beings, Einsteinian physics is below kindergarten level, metaphorically speaking.

3. Even within Einsteinian physics, due to time dilation, time flows much more slowly for beings inside a fast-moving craft. Even if they can "only approach" the speed of light, not much time would pass inside the craft even if it has travelled for thousands of light years. From the perspective of a photon travelling at the speed of light, no time has elapsed even after the photon has travelled for billions of light years. For the photon, it happens instantly.

Also, we don't know anything about their lifespans. Maybe they just send drones, von Neumann's probes or whatever.

Maybe they have working Alcubierre drives. And Alcubierre drive is just one proposed loophole allowing to effectively reach the destination faster than light. Maybe there are other loopholes.

4. If they can operate in at least one more dimension than us (string theory proposes 11 dimensions), then they could instantly reach any point in our 4D spacetime. Our 4D spacetime would be like Flatland to them.

5. Watch some videos with Professor Donald Hoffman to understand why spacetime is not fundamental. It is conceivable that super highly-developed entities do not even travel THROUGH spacetime. This could potentially explain some of the "woo" things about the phenomenon.

The perception of 3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension is what evolution gave us. It is not absolute and it is not fundamental. It was the minimum required for our survival as a species. Hoffman has showed evidence that evolution hid the rest of reality from our perception.

Probably all a misunderstanding. For example, if Grush asks anybody whether they think there is evidence for non-human intelligence on earth, any sensible person would answer: "Yes, of course!", probably not realizing that Grush for some reason seems to think that dolphins and chimpanzees are human.

You have posted that gag of yours for the umpteenth time, but it doesn't add anything constructive or interesting to the discussion. Like a broken vinyl record, stuck in a groove.

This will be just another farce from the UFO cult followers. These events are nothing but more programming for the weak minds of the brainwashed.

Denialists are the new conspiracy theorists There is a conspiracy behind any attempts to research anomalous phenomena and attempts to declassify stuff, LOL. Noland, Elizondo, Loeb belong to the conspiracy LMAO...

Why would people with respected careers in their fields risk being ridiculed? Because they are part of the conspiracy, LOL...But what are the goals of the conspiracy? Hmmm....

"Adam Frank, a professor of astrophysics at the University of Rochester, published a critique of the Grusch claims on June 22 with Big Think. Frank writes that he does "not find these claims exciting at all" because they are all "just hearsay" where "a guy says he knows a guy who knows another guy who heard from a guy that the government has alien spaceships".[24]"

From what I have read, some witnesses have confirmed at least some of Grusch's claims and there will be a hearing. The fact that such claims are even being investigated is quite astonishing. Before 2017, they would have just been ridiculed and ignored.

Jonathan Grey, a current US intelligence official at the National Air and Space Intelligence Center (Nasic), confirmed the existence of �exotic materials� to the Debrief.

�The non-human intelligence phenomenon is real. We are not alone,� Grey said.

�Retrievals of this kind are not limited to the United States. This is a global phenomenon, and yet a global solution continues to elude us.�

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/08/ufo-house-representatives-hearing-investigation

no one yet has actually shown ANYTHING related to interstellar lifeforms -  congress may declassify such material IF IT EXISTS, but does not say there actually is any there there.

1. "Interstellar lifeforms" is already an interpretation. At this point, the public doesn't know much, so "NHI" and "the phenomenon" are better terms.

2. Face the music. If there is nothing behind the claims, then either one of these must be true:

a) some high-ranking US government officials and military staff with high clearances are bats#it crazy
b) we are watching some gigantic psyops

There are no other options.

But if it is psyops, they could certainly make it more shock-and-awe... And it should get much more coverage in mainstream media.

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP68-00046R000200090025-2.pdf