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Author Topic: Our own kind looking for free work / using images from Google search  (Read 21475 times)

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Ron

« on: November 03, 2013, 04:37 »
+2
Found this link posted in the symbiostock forum, its about a guy wanting free work from a talented illustrator

http://neechart.blogspot.jp/2013/11/artists-beware-roy-torres-of-grey.html

In the comments there is a link to presentation from this guy Roy Torres

Its a very bad presentation of him, its even out of focus for the first minute or so, using copyrighted work taken of Google. I am not sure if that is allowed as fair use, but at 3.26 there is an image from Tyler (Leaf)



It seems he is not taking copyright and paying for work very seriously, with is a disgrace as he is a photographer and art director himself


« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 07:47 »
0
Just a heads up, the first link seems a bit dodgy, tries to download some kind of program supposed to be a Java update. Maybe their site got hacked by someone who didn't like what they had to say?

ETA just tried again and didn't get the dodgy message this time, so not sure what's going on?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2013, 07:56 by Christos Georghiou »

« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2013, 07:48 »
+2
Amazing.  What a AZZ Roy is, particularly in his response to Travis.  Just another sponge wanting to get his greedy hooks in the hard work of other people for free.

Ron

« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 08:02 »
0
Just a heads up, the first link seems a bit dodgy, tries to download some kind of program supposed to be a Java update. Maybe their site got hacked by someone who didn't like what they had to say?

ETA just tried again and didn't get the dodgy message this time, so not sure what's going on?

NO issues for me, it just takes me to the blog, no warnings, and bit defender is not alarming me either.

Ron

« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 08:02 »
0
Amazing.  What a AZZ Roy is, particularly in his response to Travis.  Just another sponge wanting to get his greedy hooks in the hard work of other people for free.
The reply was shocking indeed.

His work is cool, but what a way to treat your own kind.

« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2013, 08:13 »
0
Amazing.  What a AZZ Roy is, particularly in his response to Travis.  Just another sponge wanting to get his greedy hooks in the hard work of other people for free.
The reply was shocking indeed.

His work is cool, but what a way to treat your own kind.

Totally. Zero respect and appreciation for the skills, talent and time that go into production of this art.

« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2013, 09:33 »
+1
Personally, I try not to be confrontational in the responses I give to email inquiries. They're just going to lead to exchanges like this and nothing is resolved or changed.

EmberMike

« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2013, 10:17 »
+3
Personally, I try not to be confrontational in the responses I give to email inquiries. They're just going to lead to exchanges like this and nothing is resolved or changed.

I don't think Travis was confrontational in his response. He was professional and very plainly explained why he can't and won't work for free.

I've had the unfortunate opportunity to work for a dirtbag like Torres before, the sort of people who are happy to take and take from artists for their own benefit and profit but don't see the need to pay for the work. I actually really like that people are calling out these predatory art directors and helping to spread the word that this kind of stuff is not acceptable.

« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2013, 10:52 »
+1
Personally, I try not to be confrontational in the responses I give to email inquiries. They're just going to lead to exchanges like this and nothing is resolved or changed.

I don't think Travis was confrontational in his response. He was professional and very plainly explained why he can't and won't work for free.

I've had the unfortunate opportunity to work for a dirtbag like Torres before, the sort of people who are happy to take and take from artists for their own benefit and profit but don't see the need to pay for the work. I actually really like that people are calling out these predatory art directors and helping to spread the word that this kind of stuff is not acceptable.

No, I thought he was very professional and polite, but even opening a dialogue seems to lead to confrontation. I think it is because what you are really saying (between the lines) is "why don't you pay me you cheapskate". Just like when they say, "I love your work, but I can't pay you". Does anybody really think they love your work at that point?  ;)

If I own a coffee shop (like in the example), I don't need to explain to anybody why I need to charge for coffee. I just point to the board with the prices and ask if they want to order something.

Shelma1

« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2013, 11:09 »
+1
I hope he likes working at Grey, because this story is making the advertising rounds.

EmberMike

« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2013, 11:53 »
+3
No, I thought he was very professional and polite, but even opening a dialogue seems to lead to confrontation. I think it is because what you are really saying (between the lines) is "why don't you pay me you cheapskate". Just like when they say, "I love your work, but I can't pay you". Does anybody really think they love your work at that point?  ;)

If I own a coffee shop (like in the example), I don't need to explain to anybody why I need to charge for coffee. I just point to the board with the prices and ask if they want to order something.

True, it does tend to lead to confrontation. But I think it's a confrontation we need to be willing to have more often. Because right now, it's a far-too-common misconception that the menu at the proverbial art and design coffee shop should still say $0 next to each item.

None of us wants to waste time with these jokers who aren't willing to pay. But I think ignoring the jokers is part of the reason why they keep coming around looking for free work.

Let's face it, every one of us wants to say "yes" when a company like Grey comes knocking. But even when it's a company like that, I still think it's important to politely say no and explain why, even if it results in an email exchange like the one seen here.

Matter of fact, I think when a request for free work comes in from a company like this, the fact that it's coming from such a high-profile company with household-name clients and award-winning ADs makes it that much more important to respond and (sometimes) call attention to the request publicly, like the artist in question did here.

We see big companies like Walmart getting called out all the time for poor pay, poor employee treatment, etc. Here's a company offering zero pay. They're worse than Walmart, if you ask me, so how can we not call them out and try to bring some attention to this issue?

EmberMike

« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2013, 12:16 »
+2

These stories always make me think of this:



Probably NSFW for some language but so appropriate. :)

Shelma1

« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2013, 14:06 »
0
Great video!

« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2013, 00:53 »
+3
Emails like these are unfortunate but numerous, but in most scenarios, the person requesting doesn't normally respond when "called out" or rejected. This one in particular shocks me - faced with rejection, the creative director goes on to call Travis a "fake artist" and suggest that there was nothing special or outstanding about his portfolio.

What was his plan... to insult the artist until they gave in? :S
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 03:34 by davidgoh »

fujiko

« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2013, 03:40 »
0
I think it's best to not enter in arguments about why one can't work for free or anything that looks like you are trying to change their mind or convince them they are wrong.

Just answer something like this:
Quote
Thank you for contacting me!
If you are interested in my services here are the prices...
Best!

They won't answer back, no confrontation.

ShadySue

  • There is a crack in everything
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2013, 06:04 »
+3
Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.

PaulieWalnuts

  • We Have Exciting News For You
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2013, 07:28 »
+2

These stories always make me think of this:



Probably NSFW for some language but so appropriate. :)


And this one.

The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations


I get contacted pretty regularly with the "we'll give you credit" pitch. I've gotten to the point where I either respond with prices or don't respond. When I don't respond if they want the image bad enough they eventually contact me again asking about fees.

I had one guy I responded to with fees respond back with a somewhat dismissive tone. Amazingly this guy was based in a very wealthy area of Southern California. I responded to him that when camera equipment manufacturers, computer makers, airline companies, gas companies, and all the rest stop charging for their products and services I will too.

Ron

« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2013, 07:36 »
+3
Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.

I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.

« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2013, 07:51 »
+1
Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.

I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.

Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way.  I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.   

Ron

« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2013, 09:38 »
+1
Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.

I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.

Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way.  I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
You mean my price is way too low, or that they wouldnt pay it?

EmberMike

« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2013, 10:48 »
+2
I had a request once from a cruise business...

One of the comments I've read in regards to this Roy Torres case is this: "Multi-millionaires become multi-millionaires by pleading poverty every hour of every day."

Your story reminds me of that sentiment as well. These companies have money. Lots of it in some cases. Roy Torres himself probably isn't suffering financially, being an award-winning art director for a hot Park Avenue ad agency. But these companies probably stay flush with cash in part by ripping off the folks who supply the creative material for the ads they sell to their clients. What's better than selling an ad to a client for $50k? Selling an ad for $50k without spending a dime on photos, art, etc.


Shelma1

« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2013, 11:15 »
+1
Actually, ad agencies usually provide a detailed breakdown of expenditures. And clients are willing to pay good money for art and photography. It sounds more to me like Torres is having a tough time getting his creative work approved at boring, awful Grey ("There's a reason they call it Grey"), and was trying to do some spec work that he could pay to run once somewhere so it would qualify for award shows. The client probably wasn't interested.

Now, if you and your buddies want to get together and do some spec work with the mutual agreement that it may win you some awards and get you a better job, great. I did that with one of the art directors I work with for a director who wanted to expand her reel, and we all got a nice spec commercial for our websites. But to ask someone you don't know to do work for free on the slim chance your unwanted spec work will win an award is pretty ballsy.

His nasty put-down is coming back to bite him.

« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2013, 12:00 »
+4
What a dbag.  Looking at the link to his presentation to the Miami Ad School, his lack of professionalism seems to be the norm - drinking beer during a presentation to students?  Showing a bunch of Goggled images for his life story and basically just running some reels from Gray without any explanation of his involvement in the creative process.  My guess is he is basically the guy they send out to pick up the sandwiches.

« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2013, 12:21 »
+1
Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.

I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.

Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way.  I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
You mean my price is way too low, or that they wouldnt pay it?

No I mean that if a cruise line won't fork out $10 to be legal they are idiots. Not targeted at you.

Ron

« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2013, 12:43 »
+1
Requests I've had (via Flickr) have generally been for small, non-profit or charity publications. I'm always pleasant to them, having been an editor of such for several years in the past.
However, this sort of thing, with a big commericial entity involved, needs to be named and shamed.
Well done, Travis.

I had a request once from a cruise business, they found one of my images on Flickr and they wanted to use on of my Howth cliff images for their website because their in-house photographer was sick or something. Sure they could, I asked 10 dollar for the web use. They never came back to me. 10 (!) dollar, if thats an insult to you, than its even a bigger insult to me that you find that too much. They used another image.

Most just want it for free and think that the photographer will just be happy having their work published in some way.  I have had plenty of stuff published (30-40 articles, book) and it no longer is exciting to me unless I get paid. And $10? That smacks of pure business idiocracy.
You mean my price is way too low, or that they wouldnt pay it?

No I mean that if a cruise line won't fork out $10 to be legal they are idiots. Not targeted at you.
I agree, thats what is frustrating or angering. You give them an absolute fair price, and its still not good enough. A ticket is 19 euros, I should ask them if its ok if I took the cruise for free.



 

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