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« Reply #200 on: March 28, 2020, 13:55 »
0
Only governments have the power to reign in massive corporations.

Sorry, but that's one of the biggest fallacies of modern politics.

No bureaucracy will put your interest ahead of its personal survival. Most bureaucrats will do whatever it takes to prove that they are indispensable and save their jobs. But that's normal, we can't blame them for being human.

When things fail, they will never say that it's because of their incompetence or because their survival instinct trumped everything else. They will blame it on the lack of resources, they will ask for more taxes to finance more people in a new agency created to oversee that problem.

The fact is that consumers are the most powerful force able to really keep the companies in check, when proper competition is permitted.

The companies that can afford to disregard the power of the masses are those in a monopolistic situation. And history thought us that long term monopolies never flourished, except when backed by governments, usually through enhanced regulations designed to kill any potential competition coming from minor players.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 13:59 by Zero Talent »


« Reply #201 on: March 28, 2020, 14:56 »
0
Total lockdown in Spain.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/03/28/5e7f866ffc6c8365018b456e.html

Quote
Pedro Snchez announces the paralysis of all "non-essential" activities for 11 days due to the coronavirus


« Reply #202 on: March 28, 2020, 18:07 »
+1
That's old thinking.
In this time and age, in the social media age, when all brands are so very much concerned with their image, more than ever, no company can afford to go against what consumers want. Companies are very often ahead of regulations because they understood exactly those concerns coming from consumers.
Moreover, even when bad things happen, regulators are very often oblivious to that. Independent consumer associations, the free press, etc., are most of the time ahead of those bloated bureaucratic governmental bodies. See the VW emission case.
Even more, those regulators are often in bed with the industry, playing favorites with those who pay their bills and bankroll their elections. See the recent Boeing case.

During the early stages of the Covid-19 crisis, too much governmental control has prevented the Covid tests manufactured abroad to be imported in the US, because those tests, despite being proven superior, were not FDA approved. So... too much regulation might have led to deaths when preventable cases went untested and unnoticed. And the shortage of tests in the US continues even today, despite the daily lies from our dear leader and God sent savior.

Sorry but this just isn't true. Look at climate change. Oil companies have been spending hundreds of millions of dollars for decades to obscure facts and muddy the waters so just enough consumers are just confused enough to think there is still controversy over the science. This is while the companies  own scientists have been at the forefront of researching the truth behind closed doors and burying it. It's much cheaper to spend a few million hoodwinking a chunk of the public than to lose the billions that would come if there was consensus.

Consumers often either don't have a choice or the time to research these things, and journalists have never been squeezed more than today. Only governments have the power to reign in massive corporations.

yes - you beat me to it!  just look at the damage trump has done by rolling back or eliminating regulations; or by the failure to regulate big pharma (we pay many times the $ other countries for the same drug because our govt is PROHIBITED from neghotiating)

« Reply #203 on: March 28, 2020, 18:54 »
0
That's old thinking.
In this time and age, in the social media age, when all brands are so very much concerned with their image, more than ever, no company can afford to go against what consumers want. Companies are very often ahead of regulations because they understood exactly those concerns coming from consumers.
Moreover, even when bad things happen, regulators are very often oblivious to that. Independent consumer associations, the free press, etc., are most of the time ahead of those bloated bureaucratic governmental bodies. See the VW emission case.
Even more, those regulators are often in bed with the industry, playing favorites with those who pay their bills and bankroll their elections. See the recent Boeing case.

During the early stages of the Covid-19 crisis, too much governmental control has prevented the Covid tests manufactured abroad to be imported in the US, because those tests, despite being proven superior, were not FDA approved. So... too much regulation might have led to deaths when preventable cases went untested and unnoticed. And the shortage of tests in the US continues even today, despite the daily lies from our dear leader and God sent savior.

Sorry but this just isn't true. Look at climate change. Oil companies have been spending hundreds of millions of dollars for decades to obscure facts and muddy the waters so just enough consumers are just confused enough to think there is still controversy over the science. This is while the companies  own scientists have been at the forefront of researching the truth behind closed doors and burying it. It's much cheaper to spend a few million hoodwinking a chunk of the public than to lose the billions that would come if there was consensus.

Consumers often either don't have a choice or the time to research these things, and journalists have never been squeezed more than today. Only governments have the power to reign in massive corporations.

yes - you beat me to it!  just look at the damage trump has done by rolling back or eliminating regulations; or by the failure to regulate big pharma (we pay many times the $ other countries for the same drug because our govt is PROHIBITED from neghotiating)

Except that, as shown above, the opposite is true. ;)

Effective Covid-19 tests from Europe couldn't be imported in the US, exactly because of our very strict FDA regulations.
The absence of testing in the US is certainly the reason for the extensive spread of the virus.
Many deaths could have been avoided by early testing. Check that screenshot from NY Times, I posted above.

Besides, our very strict FDA regulations are preventing drug imports, thus reducing the competition on the US market.
This is also why, many drug companies currently enjoy a virtually monopolistic situation, being protected against foreign competition and smaller domestic competitors by our strict FDA regulations.

Lower prices are not achieved through a government fiat, but through competition.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 19:52 by Zero Talent »

fritz

  • I love Tom and Jerry music

« Reply #204 on: March 28, 2020, 18:56 »
0
Until rich understand they can't eat money, it will never stop! It's time to change the game. No more game, that's all.

https://youtu.be/S6-An69TNMY

« Reply #205 on: March 28, 2020, 22:54 »
+2


Effective Covid-19 tests from Europe couldn't be imported in the US, exactly because of our very strict FDA regulations.
The absence of testing in the US is certainly the reason for the extensive spread of the virus.
Many deaths could have been avoided by early testing. Check that screenshot from NY Times, I posted above.

Besides, our very strict FDA regulations are preventing drug imports, thus reducing the competition on the US market.
This is also why, many drug companies currently enjoy a virtually monopolistic situation, being protected against foreign competition and smaller domestic competitors by our strict FDA regulations.

Lower prices are not achieved through a government fiat, but through competition.

nonsense -- competition rarely lowers prices -- yes, FDA rules handicapped us, but overall big pharma makes the rules - even  here it lets them keep out competitors.

re other drugs, those drugs are made HERE and sold abroad cheaply due to govt negotiation, while here they can price gouge since no one can demand lower prices. somuch for competition

large corporations are not going to lower prices on their own -- and in many areas patents & trade secrets eliminate any competition. then there are areas like airlines & oil industry where virtual cartels keep prices high without any overt price fixing.

« Reply #206 on: March 29, 2020, 01:06 »
+1
competition rarely lowers prices -- yes, FDA rules handicapped us,

Lol at your first statement (which is so easily dismissable, it's not even worth arguing about) -- and yes, I'm glad that you agree with me on the second one. We have here a very clear example of how regulations not just handicapped us, but led to preventable deaths.

We are making progress!  ;D

The next step is to understand how monopolies and the associated price gauging practices are flourishing under the protection of tough regulations (i.e. cronyism).
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 01:43 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #207 on: March 29, 2020, 01:33 »
+4
competition rarely lowers prices -- yes, FDA rules handicapped us,

Lol at your first statement (which is so easily dismissable, it's not even worth arguing about) -- and yes, I'm glad that you agree with me on the second one. We have here a very clear example of how the regulations (like the ones your asking for) not just handicapped us, but led to preventable deaths.

We are making progress!  ;D

The next step is to understand how monopolies and the associated price gauging practices are flourishing under the protection of tough regulations (cronyism)


In my country we were sold the same BS about competition lowering prices.  With that BS, the EU forced our government to privatize strategic sectors of the economy (fuel, energy, transportation, etc.). Sectors that in most part already had private companies operating and competing with the state company.

When the state sold all those companies and all became private, what happened was that cartels were immediately formed to combine prices. Forget about competition driving prices down. Now you pay what the cartels want you to pay.

With the privatizing of those profitable businesses, the profits instead of coming directly to the State and used in the betterment of the country, now go to the pocket of Capitalists.

You may argue that the state still get revenue from taxes, but that's also not true. Those capitalists moved the fiscal headquarters of the companies to countries like Netherlands where they pay less taxes. Netherlands and other countries like it, in turn benefit from wealth sucked from my country without spending a dime on it. Much like parasites. In other cases, Capitalists hide the money on off-shores not paying taxes.

You may also argue that it's the state and government job to investigate those illegalities. With so much power in the hands of capitalists, not only they buy the politicians in power, the State loss of revenue due to the mentioned above now has no means or funding to act.

Plus, in my country capitalism and the competition/prices babble was used to crush the producers cutting the price paid to them (look at what also happened to us  photographers). In the end, consumers are not paying less and workers are earning much less, but capitalists are richer than ever.

Since the privatizing of all those companies our level of living regressed to the same we had in the 70's. And man, were we poor back then!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 03:17 by MicroVet »

« Reply #208 on: March 29, 2020, 01:43 »
0
***

« Reply #209 on: March 29, 2020, 02:31 »
+1
"No bureaucracy will put your interest ahead of its personal survival."  Nor any business which is why tobacco was pushed for years after corporations knew and suppressed evidence of its dangers and on-line gambling companies offer their biggest clients huge incentives to keep gambling.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3490543/

« Reply #210 on: March 29, 2020, 04:28 »
+1
competition rarely lowers prices -- yes, FDA rules handicapped us,

Lol at your first statement (which is so easily dismissable, it's not even worth arguing about) -- and yes, I'm glad that you agree with me on the second one. We have here a very clear example of how the regulations (like the ones your asking for) not just handicapped us, but led to preventable deaths.

We are making progress!  ;D

The next step is to understand how monopolies and the associated price gauging practices are flourishing under the protection of tough regulations (cronyism)


In my country we were sold the same BS about competition lowering prices.  With that BS, the EU forced our government to privatize strategic sectors of the economy (fuel, energy, transportation, etc.). Sectors that in most part already had private companies operating and competing with the state company.

When the state sold all those companies and all became private, what happened was that cartels were immediately formed to combine prices. Forget about competition driving prices down. Now you pay what the cartels want you to pay.

With the privatizing of those profitable businesses, the profits instead of coming directly to the State and used in the betterment of the country, now go to the pocket of Capitalists.

You may argue that the state still get revenue from taxes, but that's also not true. Those capitalists moved the fiscal headquarters of the companies to countries like Netherlands where they pay less taxes. Netherlands and other countries like it, in turn benefit from wealth sucked from my country without spending a dime on it. Much like parasites. In other cases, Capitalists hide the money on off-shores not paying taxes.

You may also argue that it's the state and government job to investigate those illegalities. With so much power in the hands of capitalists, not only they buy the politicians in power, the State loss of revenue due to the mentioned above now has no means or funding to act.

Plus, in my country capitalism and the competition/prices babble was used to crush the producers cutting the price paid to them (look at what also happened to us  photographers). In the end, consumers are not paying less and workers are earning much less, but capitalists are richer than ever.

Since the privatizing of all those companies our level of living regressed to the same we had in the 70's. And man, were we poor back then!
Totally agree...
Btw if it's true that capitalists are taking most of the pie,it's even true that our lifestyle has improved much...

« Reply #211 on: March 29, 2020, 05:18 »
+3
Btw if it's true that capitalists are taking most of the pie,it's even true that our lifestyle has improved much...

Capitalists always took most of the pie. That is not the question. The question is that nowadays, with a more and more unregulated capitalism they are taking almost all of the pie. The gap between rich and poor was never this big.

Plus, if you look at history there almost always have been progress and betterment of the conditions of life. That has nothing to do with capitalism but with human nature. We didn't evolve from the Paleolithic to Mesolithic then Neolithic because of Capitalism. We did it because has humans we always try to improve our quality of life. And that has been an ongoing march. Sometimes faster, other times less so.

We can even argue that Russians and Chinese lived better in the 1960/70s than in 1910 despite the repression and oppression of those regimes that had nothing to do with capitalism. In a world without capitalism, no matter what would replace it, there would still be development and betterment of life.

Plus, I would like to add a comment on the earlier idea that the consumers drive the capitalist companies to do better, compared to regulation. I do not agree with that at all.

If we were to remove all regulations, lets say regarding environment protection, an immediate catastrophe would fall on the planet. Sure, some consumers would still make a market for Eco-friendly companies, but the vast majority of the consumers are ignorant and know nothing about ecology except a few buzzwords about it. In the end they would just buy the cheaper product and did not care if it was produced by destroying ecosystems. That would drag all the Eco-friendly companies down in a heartbeat except high-end products for a minority. We've seen it happen in Microstock with the price and content wars!

If we consider that most of the Media is property of large economic groups, people would not even know how those products were being made because of controlled information. Couple that with marketing, and fake news discrediting the people speaking about the problem and nothing would stop Unregulated Capitalism. Look at what happened to oil companies and fuel with lead or tobacco companies.

Are the State regulations and authorities slow to evolve? Yes, but even with all their problems they are what still protect the people. And do not forget that we can even argue that States and authorities are slower to act exactly because the power of Capitalists, who interfere heavily and create a lot of obstacles and sow corruption for their own gain. I see that daily and blatantly in my country daily!

Connecting all this with the coronavirus crisis, and to prove my previous paragraph, I can say that once the quarantine scenario was put on the table, the capitalists of my country immediately started to say that they would bankrupt their companies and that they needed subsidies because they could not resist economically stop for 15 days! That immediately delayed the issue of the quarantine, and will kill countless people, just because they lie about the survival of their companies and found a way to suck money from the State they hate so much.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 05:29 by MicroVet »

50%

« Reply #212 on: March 29, 2020, 06:39 »
0
lack of solidarity of some countries (Germany, Netherlands, Finland, Austria...). Italy, Spain and France are alone in this war. I hope China will help us.

Germany took a lot of patients from Italy and France just an example and you call it lack of solidarity?
China or better their government is responsible for this bug and all the misery it came with it, they should closed the wet markets long ago not just because Sars version 1 in 2002/2003 developed from the wet markets the same way as now Sars version 2 but also because these wet markets are exceptional cruel to animals and they even sell endangered species for eating purposes.
But hey good luck with your new friends from China and don't forget the Tiananmen Square massacre!
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 06:51 by 50% »

« Reply #213 on: March 29, 2020, 07:23 »
+2

don't forget the Tiananmen Square massacre!


 :o

And don't forget the WWII.

Your move.

« Reply #214 on: March 29, 2020, 07:25 »
0
Maybe the XVI  religion wars?


« Reply #215 on: March 29, 2020, 07:26 »
0
Ok.

It's time to re-think the EU, that's pretty clear.

georgep7

« Reply #216 on: March 29, 2020, 07:39 »
0
Truth is that following politics forums, noone speak politics now.

What perhaps we fail to wonder is if next month we will have e.g. fresh onions.

Meaning that with this lockdown no basic needs production is 100% served.

Everything else can be discussed and solved over a food full table
within two months period (hopefully after corona is over) from now!


Uncle Pete

  • Great Place by a Great Lake - My Home Port
« Reply #217 on: March 29, 2020, 07:59 »
+2

don't forget the Tiananmen Square massacre!


 :o

And don't forget the WWII.

Your move.

Remember the Maine!


We went shopping yesterday, I wondered why eggs are three times the normal prices. I asked the checker and she said "there's a shortage" to which asked, "What did the chickens stop laying eggs because of the virus?"  ;D

« Reply #218 on: March 29, 2020, 08:14 »
0

don't forget the Tiananmen Square massacre!


 :o

And don't forget the WWII.

Your move.

Remember the Maine!



We do, dam n yankees.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 08:17 by trabuco »

« Reply #219 on: March 29, 2020, 08:14 »
0
I wonder how long this extreme measures can be maintained. Some problems in southern Italy now.

Here we are still at fun but...
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 08:19 by trabuco »

« Reply #220 on: March 29, 2020, 10:47 »
0
Btw if it's true that capitalists are taking most of the pie,it's even true that our lifestyle has improved much...

Capitalists always took most of the pie. That is not the question. The question is that nowadays, with a more and more unregulated capitalism they are taking almost all of the pie. The gap between rich and poor was never this big.

In competitive capitalism, every transaction is a win-win. When you have choices, when the competition is allowed to flourish, you pay only as much as you think that product is worth. You decide how much of their pie to take and how much of your pie to give away in exchange.

The problem you are describing is not deregulated capitalism, but the exact opposite: it is over-regulated capitalism. It is crony-capitalism. Capitalism where the consumer doesn't have choices. Capitalism where corporations are in cahoots with regulators.

Consumers' choices are the healthy feedback loop in a healthy economy. The consumer sends back their message to companies, through their choices. Companies must adapt to consumers' will and choices or perish.

We vote for politicians every 4 years or so. In 4 years, many things can go south with no way to change course.

In healthy capitalism, we vote every day, we vote with every single purchase we make.

Remember that in general, nobody is defending your own interest better than yourself; not the corporations and not the government. Both entities, the same as you, will defend their interest first and foremost. And there is nothing wrong with that. That's how the world works.

Didn't you notice that politicians very seldom talk about consumers? They either want to protect a select group of workers or a select group of companies. They forget that consumers are a natural regulator and the oil that's harmoniously linking those two entities.

I agree that the situation you are describing is bad. But you are choosing the wrong direction to address that problem. The direction should be towards less regulation and more competition, not the other way around (as most politicians want you to believe, when they ask for your vote, in an attempt to position themselves as your saviour).
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 11:01 by Zero Talent »

« Reply #221 on: March 29, 2020, 11:04 »
0


In competitive capitalism, every transaction is a win-win. When you have choices, when the competition is allowed to flourish, you pay only as much as you think that product is worth. You decide how much of their pie to take and how much of your pie to give away in exchange.

The problem you are describing is not deregulated capitalism, but the exact opposite: it is over-regulated capitalism. It is crony-capitalism. Capitalism where the consumer doesn't have choices. Capitalism where corporations are in cahoots with regulators.

Consumers' choices are the healthy feedback loop in a healthy economy. The consumer sends back their message to companies, through their choices. Companies must adapt to consumers' will and choices or perish.

....

how is it win-win for oil companies to make obscene profits while they pollute the earth?  just what 'choice' does the consumer have when faced with a cartel; same for drugs, medical care (in the US), airline prices (even w 'competition' from a few carriers), ....

regulation is the reason for crony capitalism, rather capitalism continues DESPITE our regulations (often too weak to effect any change).  both parties in the US are complicit - the republicans more so, but the dems for the most part are not progressive. so the idea we can make necessary changes every 4 years is a fairy tale

« Reply #222 on: March 29, 2020, 11:53 »
0


In competitive capitalism, every transaction is a win-win. When you have choices, when the competition is allowed to flourish, you pay only as much as you think that product is worth. You decide how much of their pie to take and how much of your pie to give away in exchange.

The problem you are describing is not deregulated capitalism, but the exact opposite: it is over-regulated capitalism. It is crony-capitalism. Capitalism where the consumer doesn't have choices. Capitalism where corporations are in cahoots with regulators.

Consumers' choices are the healthy feedback loop in a healthy economy. The consumer sends back their message to companies, through their choices. Companies must adapt to consumers' will and choices or perish.

....

how is it win-win for oil companies to make obscene profits while they pollute the earth?  just what 'choice' does the consumer have when faced with a cartel; same for drugs, medical care (in the US), airline prices (even w 'competition' from a few carriers), ....

regulation is the reason for crony capitalism, rather capitalism continues DESPITE our regulations (often too weak to effect any change).  both parties in the US are complicit - the republicans more so, but the dems for the most part are not progressive. so the idea we can make necessary changes every 4 years is a fairy tale

Do you have a car? Is it a Tesla or some other electric car? If not, the oil companies are giving you exactly what YOU want. YOU are part of the problem. YOU are polluting the planet. YOU contribute to global warming.
Even if you are rich enough to afford an electric car, or to pay extra for renewable energy only, you shouldn't impose your choice and your ability to pay more, on poor people who worry about what to eat tomorrow.

When consumers will stop asking for oil, the oil companies will cease to be relevant. Until then, they are doing exactly what we, the consumers, are asking them to do.

Imagine a brilliant scientist who finds a new life-saving drug. For many years, he will never be able to sell that drug to the public. No small lab startup will ever be able to wait years for FDA approval. This is when Big Pharma is buying out that smart idea or they can choose to wait for the small lab to go bankrupt if they are stubborn enough to attempt to compete. Nobody is counting how many lives are lost because of excessive regulations.

Moreover, the same Big Pharma is, in most cases, the very author of that regulation, because they know that regulations are a killer weapon for small competitors, who could force their prices down if allowed to compete.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 16:51 by Zero Talent »

50%

« Reply #223 on: March 29, 2020, 12:12 »
+1

don't forget the Tiananmen Square massacre!


 :o

And don't forget the WWII.

Your move.
I assume you talk about Germany? Germany did well to overcome it's past. It is a complete different political system now. The criminals of WWII had been held accountable not only in the Nuremberg process but in many processes after war. Billions of reparation had been paid to the victims of WWII. Human rights are well protected in modern Germany. It is like in Spain where you have now a complete different political system that is not accountable for the crimes of the Franco regime.

It is very different in China it is not even the same political system when at a the time of the massacre it is even the same political clique that is still in power. None was ever held accountable for the crimes. Human rights are constantly broken in China.

But again hey good luck with your new friend China wish you well!

« Reply #224 on: March 29, 2020, 12:32 »
0

don't forget the Tiananmen Square massacre!


 :o

And don't forget the WWII.

Your move.
I assume you talk about Germany? Germany did well to overcome it's past. It is a complete different political system now. The criminals of WWII had been held accountable not only in the Nuremberg process but in many processes after war. Billions of reparation had been paid to the victims of WWII. Human rights are well protected in modern Germany. It is like in Spain where you have now a complete different political system that is not accountable for the crimes of the Franco regime.

It is very different in China it is not even the same political system when at a the time of the massacre it is even the same political clique that is still in power. None was ever held accountable for the crimes. Human rights are constantly broken in China.

But again hey good luck with your new friend China wish you well!


 :o




 

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