Hi,
I would need advice regarding a credentials issue. Thanks in advance for everyone who have the strenght go through this:

I asked editorial credentials for a small-ish event, to make the submission easier for SS and Bigstock. Actually that might not have been necessary (not a ticketed event, open area etc...) but I wanted to avoid the song and dance with the stock agencies. Usually getting the credentials hasn't been that hard anyway.

This time the organizer of the event sent me an email, which contained the editorial credentials form. OK  so far, BUT the email said further: "The credentials are ok if we can use your images later. We will give the participants (ie who bring an item to the event) a photo of their X (X being whatever item they bring) at the venue."

Can someone tell me what does this mean, and do I need to mind the added sentence? Their condition is not reasonable, and doens't seem even legal.
I was thinking that, sure they can use my images, if they download them from a stock agency. No problem. But then I thought, wait a minute, they cannot actually "give" my images away. They don't have the rights to pass on my images to a third party.

The email just said "images", not how many, nothing about the price of images (not "for free"). No one, not even a child would let 30-50 of their images used without a charge, and the form of EC, that is really not that valuable!

I later learned that the event organizer is not a professional (wasn't hard to guess eh) so maybe he was just ignorant.

I can't accept the condition of providing images for free. Is that kind of a condition, attached to an editorial credential, even legally binding?

Provided that it is probably legally ok to shoot at the event without the editorial credentials anyway, and licence them as editorial, can I just ignore the editorial credentials form? I would shoot at the event and never submit the form they sent me.

What would be the best way to proceed?

Thank you for your help!

Hi, and thanks for the reply. Well, I shoot stock. I do not want to give user rights for free. In this occasion it would mean giving out user rights for 30--50 images, that would define insane!

Can anyone tell me what options do I have? I would still like to cover the event, as I find it interesting.

1. Not cover the event at all.
2. Go and shoot it, and if they demand images from me claim that their demands are unreasonable.
Not use the credentials form they sent as according to the law I am allowed to photograph it (outdoors, open area, no tickets).
3. Email them, saying thank you very much, unfortunately I do not provide free images, you can upload the photos from agency X after the event.
4. Other?

I'd go with option 3 either write or call them and explain that you shoot professionally and do not give your images away but that you are happy to negotiate a fee for x# of images. Your other option if you just submit to SS and Bigstock is to contact SS's On the Red Carpet program and have them get you credentials, explaining to them what's happened so far (check with SS if Bigstock submissions are ok-OTRC restricts you to only submitting those photos to SS for 2 years). If these don't work, you should probably consider option 1 (sometimes you just have to walk away). Just my opinion but I don't think you want to leave the issue of free images unresolved, since by showing up and shooting they may think you've agreed to their terms.

Good luck.

What Matt is saying also makes sense, however, not knowing what kind of event this is, it's hard to give you more than a vague opinion. I don't think that journalists should have to give their work away for free, but can see Matt's point. Ultimately, you have to decide what you're comfortable with. Personally, I'd contact the On the Red Carpet folks and see what kind of advice they give you.

I shoot for local media so usually don't have any problem getting credentials, but went with OTRC early on for a small event in NYC and it was very helpful. The event was less interesting than I expected but interestingly the photos (from 2009) still sell today - not for the event but as illustrative editorial, ending up in everything from a book on acting to Fodor's guides to Disney World. Here's a short blog post I wrote about where these photos showed up: http://www.travelstockblog.com/uncategorized/is-this-travel-photography/

This is not a band (like Matt up there assumed) and it is actually a small event, so much so that I would think they'd appreciate all the exposure they could get. More Google searches, more people next year.

I was clear on the scenario, just using the bands as a relevant example of where this is common practice.  Generally where a promoter or publicist will benefit is if you are posting an article about their event.  If it's not an event you are passionate about I would walk away.  You are right, you probably would have been better off not contacting them at all in this particular instance since it is free and there are no photography restrictions in place.  Now that you have opened the can of worms however it would be unethical in my opinion to show up and shoot without further dialogue with the promoter.

Good luck,

Mat

If you are an Exclusive with the agency then you would have to shoot the event as work-for-hire or "contract" arrangement, with written agreement as to who owns the copyright and who has rights of image use. You ask them what shots they want in return for event access, you keep the copyright, and license them the use of the image set for use only within their organization. The license can allow the organization to use the images for self promotion, advertising, and other organization uses for, say 20 years (a very loose but Rights Managed license). Forbid image sales (competing with you or your stock agencies). Work with them to draw a wide box around their uses and leave the opening for your stock sales (you hold copyright). If they give images to some "third party" members, the non-stock-compete clause should be transmitted but I wouldn't worry about it. Even if one or two third parties would try to sell an image it is minimal competition to your larger collection.

If you are not Exclusive then the forbidding of image sales is not a requirement but most of the above still is good policy.

If you play the cards right, you might even swing a low shooting fee to shoot the event, knowing that some of the images could generate additional stock sales. If you want to provide prints, you might take on the task of providing the third-party participants items. You should be able to do better than the people with their cell phones. Of course work out a printing and delivery fee as the organization won't have to mess with this task. In other words, become the official event photographer and pursue stock sales in addition.

Thank you, everyone! You have all been so helpful!
Mat, wordplanet, you are absolutely right in that I can't show up without contacting them.
StanRohrer, thank you for the advice and I like that scenario, but my hunch is that they are only after free images. Thank you for adding the link Ed, that was a final eye-opener.

So, I emailed them and asked what they meant by their terms. I basically said that I shoot professionally and that I can't give images for free. I explained what the law states about shooting at a public venue with free access for all, and asked if they can kindly give me the credentials without conditions. Figured that I have nothing to lose at this point...

I'll keep you posted on what happens. Thank you again, and have a great day!

Yes it is legal, you asked that. They could hold the copyright to the event activities itself if licensed or sanctioned. And to their name and the event name. That would be for profit sales by you.

BUT since it's free and open to the public, they can't prevent Editorial coverage.

"The credentials are ok if we can use your images later. We will give the participants (ie who bring an item to the event) a photo of their X (X being whatever item they bring) at the venue."

Sounds like they want to present participants with a memento of the event, of them with their whatever. They aren't reselling your images, if I understand it right.

Can you be more specific what they would be bringing? What event is this. Not like we're all going to go rush in and scoop the photos from you. LOL Important part isn't if you give them some shots for promotions, if they ask and you accept. That's your choice.

What's important is that you own the rights and retain all of them, for your work. What you would ask for, in return for the gifted images to be given to participants, no other use. (write it down) is this. Get an event release signed by them.

Now you have a proof for SS and IS and anyone else who might ask, that you were authorized to shoot the event. Even Editorial needs proof for some agencies, even if it legally does not.

Short version, you get a signed release from the event promoter, and they get a single photo of each participant with their item. (whatever that means?) You might also have them forward your name and you can offer to sell prints to the participants, who want other photos?

Thank you, everyone! You have all been so helpful!
Mat, wordplanet, you are absolutely right in that I can't show up without contacting them.
StanRohrer, thank you for the advice and I like that scenario, but my hunch is that they are only after free images. Thank you for adding the link Ed, that was a final eye-opener.

So, I emailed them and asked what they meant by their terms. I basically said that I shoot professionally and that I can't give images for free. I explained what the law states about shooting at a public venue with free access for all, and asked if they can kindly give me the credentials without conditions. Figured that I have nothing to lose at this point...

I'll keep you posted on what happens. Thank you again, and have a great day!

I'm not on SS, but I doubt if that would generate a reply any more than a direct email. I tend to email twice, then when I don't hear anything, I snail them. Apparently I can get a letter from Alamy News, which I will try some time, but I have no real faith that I'd get any more replies.
The concern I've heard is that they want control of where the images go, which of course is impossible with stock.

Congratulations on your positive reply.