Creative Varoufakis, totally contradictory statements by him within 2 minutes...can you imagine trying to work with this guy?

EU can not fall apart because EU is artificial origin of masters over Atlantic...
EU doesn't have their own politics, what you can saw in Ukraine...
And who told you that your money goes to save Greece, he is lying... That is not your money for sure...

Recently I was in one of our bank to open some business account... Then they give me to sign a document as a  proof  that I haven't IRS number in USA...
WWTF???!

What local business account over Atlantic has with USA and their IRS?
They told me due to mutual agreement between my country and USA...
Then I asked, will people in USA will sign same paper for my country?
No answer!

Nothing stopped Tsipras to go after the tax evaders and corruption, as he shouted loud and clear during the elections. Instead, he did nothing. Zero. On the contrary, under his incompetence, things worsen.
The previous government managed to run a primary budgetary surplus. Today, more than one year of efforts has been lost. Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.
What is also interesting is that the Greek constitution forbids a referendum on fiscal matters. And a referendum must be based on laws approved by the parliament. There is no such law. But Tsipras probably didn't know the details, when he announce it.
He is busy bluffing at his poker game, instead of running the country.

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Good read...
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/gene-kerrigan/soapbox-greeks-beware-of-adults-in-the-room-31335068.html

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 28, 2015, 14:36
Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.

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... not true - if they stop paying dept  - there budget is in plus...

Quote from: ferdinand on June 28, 2015, 14:45

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 28, 2015, 14:36
Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.

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... not true - if they stop paying dept  - there budget is in plus...

Do your homework:

"Under existing bailout targets, Athens was supposed to run a primary surplus — government receipts net of spending, excluding interest payments on sovereign debt — of 3 per cent of GDP in 2015.
With the large surplus now turning into a sizeable deficit, Greece's debt levels would begin to spike again"



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Quote from: Semmick Photo on June 28, 2015, 13:31
Dont tell me what I did and did not experience. And do you think moving back home is easy or a solution or that I would bail when things get tough? How many time have you emigrated?

your li


Are you saying I'm wrong and  you did have a mortgage and family and had your livelihood yanked from under you?  Did you have to live under the cut backs while depending on the pittance the state provides?  If the answer is no, you haven't experienced the effects of austerity.


I have never emigrated but would do so in a heartbeat if that was needed and I certainly meant no disrespect in suggesting that you would probably have done so in the circumstances I outlined.

Quote from: Zero Talent on June 28, 2015, 14:36
What is also interesting is that the Greek constitution forbids a referendum on fiscal matters. And a referendum must be based on laws approved by the parliament. There is no such law.

In case anyone doubts it, here is the Greek constitution article about referendum:

"A referendum on Bills passed by Parliament regulating important social matters, with the exception of the fiscal ones shall be proclaimed by decree by the President of the Republic, if this is decided by three-fifths of the total number of its members, following a proposal of two-fifths of the total number of its members, and as the Standing Orders and the law for the application of the present paragraph provide"

It makes perfect sense to prevent a referendum on fiscal matters.
And who dares to say that the bailout agrement is not a fiscal matter?

Another Tsipras bluff.

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Quote from: Zero Talent on June 28, 2015, 14:36
Even if the whole Greek debt is erased, they will still have to borrow again, because they spend more than they produce.

two options :

1 - print New Drachmas and start using a dual currency
2 - join Russia's Custom Union and use the Ruble, but NATO won't allow it


as for bribery and corruption, this hot debate is going on in Greece since the times of Plato's "Republic" 2500 years ago... i wouldn't worry too much, in the worst scenario greece will follow the same fate of Argentina or Zimbabwe.

Quote from: heywoody on June 28, 2015, 16:02

Quote from: Semmick Photo on June 28, 2015, 13:31
Dont tell me what I did and did not experience. And do you think moving back home is easy or a solution or that I would bail when things get tough? How many time have you emigrated?

your li


Are you saying I'm wrong and  you did have a mortgage and family and had your livelihood yanked from under you?  Did you have to live under the cut backs while depending on the pittance the state provides?  If the answer is no, you haven't experienced the effects of austerity.


I have never emigrated but would do so in a heartbeat if that was needed and I certainly meant no disrespect in suggesting that you would probably have done so in the circumstances I outlined.

I am not saying anything other than dont judge because you dont know me.

I didnt experience the things you mention, but I did have to sell my car because I couldnt afford it anymore. I had to move out of an apartment where I lived on my own and go back to renting a room in a shared house and I did have my salary frozen for 3 years. I also went through all the budgets as you did. Like I said, I could cope with the situation, but dont say I havent experience it.

Anyhoo, its off topic.

@ Semmick

Well, it's really curious that you ask others not to judge you, but you keep throwing stones at others... Claiming that others do not know your story, but somehow you seem to know all about others...

And considering what you said multiple times in multiple threads about the people of other countries in the current debt crisis and their responsibility in their situation, I think it would be honest from your part to recognize that you've been in that sad situation because you are lazy, corrupt and responsible to elect or support parties that destroyed the economy and put you in that situation.

That is your clear stance about the countries in trouble.

Sorry if I sound to harsh, but I'm just using your self-proclaimed black and white view of the world. At this moment I cannot distinguish you from a lazy Greek, Portuguese, Irish or from any other PIGS. You must have done something really wrong to mess up your life and put yourself in that position...

OR!

You may look at your personal case and consider how much control you had in the events that led you to sell your car, move to a room and have the salary frozen, including the international and government political and economical decisions.

And then look at the people from other countries and realize that the vast majority of them, were in the same situation and with the same control over their fate as yourself.

I'm guessing you're pretty Blank & White at judging others, but I' feeling a palette with of many shades of gray when it comes to you...

Greek banks closed tomorrow - possibly for a week, stock market closed too.

Stockphotosart, your conclusion doesn't make sense at all, just a fallacy. And the situation in Greece is not even the same as in Ireland. Ireland didnt cook the books and people here pay their taxes. I am angry at the banks and the housing sector for putting us in this hole. But the government did a great job getting Ireland out of the hole. I dont see that happening in Greece. The situations are completely different.

And it was not me who called anyone lazy.

If you want to argue with personal attacks, then the conversation for me is over.

Quote from: Semmick Photo on June 28, 2015, 18:36
Stockphotosart, your conclusion doesn't make sense at all, just a fallacy. And the situation in Greece is not even the same as in Ireland. Ireland didnt cook the books and people here pay their taxes. I am angry at the banks and the housing sector for putting us in this hole. But the government did a great job getting Ireland out of the hole. I dont see that happening in Greece. The situations are completely different.

And it was not me who called anyone lazy.

If you want to argue with personal attacks, then the conversation for me is over.

Well, when I read the things and insinuations you made about Portugal at another thread believe me I felt it personal. If you blame a whole people without distinction and simpathy it becomes personal because you're also talking about me. So why are you bothered to taste the same medicine?

Hey it's black and white, right?

So why don't assume your personal responsibilities in the crash of Ireland? Why are you blaming the house sector and banks, when you dismiss other people saying similar things about their own countries and organizations?

You constantly put everyone single one of a whole nation in the same boat, assuming everyone fits your per-conceived opinion and show no signs of mercy for, not only those that fight for decades the path that lead here, but innocent bystanders like the children.

You're very quick to condemn whole nations, but quicker to ignore how much control people actually have in the destinies of their own countries, very quick to ignore the mock-democracies supported and manipulated by the EU, and the destructive demands this corrupt and megalomaniac organization make over smaller countries with total disregard for any type of solidarity in the protection of their economies!

In the middle of the 2000's, the poorest region of Portugal suffered from starving. Yes, STARVING. The Red-Cross, in a well intentioned but humiliating action went to the Alentejo region to distribute food like they do in Africa. The Alentejo people sent them away and refused to accept the help, saying that they didn't need food, they needed WORK! And don't worry, an Alentejano will starve to death before letting their children suffer.

These are the people that are ignored by the German-French elected governments of Lisbon. Governments that bow to every demand from Brussels, Paris and Berlin and use the money they receive from them to sustain an octupus-type control of the state to destroy any opposition.

What is happening to Portugal has been announced and fought for decades by those who resist the mob in the government, and have taken these issues to the rest of Europe in every way they can.

THEY HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IGNORED BY THE SAME PEOPLE THAT NOW PUNISH US, SLANDERING THE PORTUGUESE PEOPLE.

I never said anything about Portugal.

And you calling me a pig is ok in your book.

Quote from: Semmick Photo on June 28, 2015, 19:29
I never said anything about Portugal.

And you calling me a pig is ok in your book.

Yes you did, at another thread. You've blamed the whole population for the economical and political situation of Portugal ignoring how engineered things are around here.

And I DID NOT call you a pig. I said, in the analogy that you were not different from any other PIGS. Look up in the Internet what that "loving" acronym stands for. Or I'll save you the trouble:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIGS_%28economics%29

I don't recall ever saying anything about Portugal. 

No need to be condescending because I  don't know what pigs means. In your rant i didn't distinguish it from all the other name calling and incorrect attributions.

Enough with your personal attacks.

Hey guys...TIME OUT!

Back to the subject and Zorba The Greek! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeNsr_nQEfE&list=RD0U93xGU059c&index=14

You never go off topic dragging P5 into every conversation, right? You never have a squabble with anyone, right?

Anyway, carry on, the playground is yours.

Drinks for ALL!

19:01
TSIPRAS ANNOUNCES CAPITAL CONTROLS AND BANK HOLIDAY

It's official, capital controls are being imposed in Greece, as the financial crisis takes an even more alarming turn tonight.

Speaking on live TV, Alexis Tsipras is saying that the Greek central bank has been forced to recommend a bank holiday and the introduction of capital controls.

He blames the ECB, and other institutions, for trying to obstruct the democratic referendum he has called for next Sunday. This is a "insult" that shames European democracy, he says.

Tsipras also appeals for calm, and he insists that bank deposits are secure.

Quote from: BaldricksTrousers on June 28, 2015, 18:24
Greek banks closed tomorrow - possibly for a week, stock market closed too.

Probably for the best. Capital controls coming too, they should have done that a long, long time ago. If everybody takes out all their money you might as well go to the barter system or gold.

You have to be able to make transfers, pay salaries and without money the banks have to close.

I would expect banks to open and close for quite a while, so you need cash if you travel there.

But of course just a few hours ago varoufakis said this would not happen...

Now they say pensions and salaries are safe...and then they will start paying "just a little less this month..." Etc...

And of course blame it all on the germans. They hate us so much, but keep expecting us and the rest of horrible europe to keep sending them money...


There will be new elections coming, varoufakis will go back to university, tsirpas will position himself as the misunderstood tragic hero and keep attacking whoever wins the next election as controlled by outsiders...

However going back to the Drachme will be useful. I just hope there won't be too many strikes that scare the tourists away.

Quote from: Semmick Photo on June 28, 2015, 19:39
I don't recall ever saying anything about Portugal. 

No need to be condescending because I  don't know what pigs means. In your rant i didn't distinguish it from all the other name calling and incorrect attributions.

Enough with your personal attacks.

I never attacked or insulted you. I've just pointed out the hypocrisy of your arguments, where you have a set of values to the others, and another one for yourself. Others are all guilty, but you are just a victim.

Well, if you got disturbed when the game was turned around and you were solely blamed for your situation just like you do to other without sympathy, I think I may have passed the message.

Anyway, I can only say that I am sorry for your situation and wish you wouldn't have to go through that and that you recover, just like all the other victims of this horror story the EU is.

Again, I haven't claimed any values for myself nor for others.  I never claimed to be a victim either. All your arguments are fallacies and distorted truths. Its ok for you to call the whole of the EU a manipulative mob, but when I generalise my opinion I am a hypocrite. And you base your attack over comments regarding Portugal I never made.

And dont you worry about me, if you had read my comments properly, you would have known that I am doing fine.

"A man needs a little madness, or else... he never dares cut the rope and be free." ― Nikos Kazantzakis

Whats going on here seriously it would be almost funny what has been expressed here as well as the the manner of how if most of them wasn't downright scary and deeply ignorant.
There is way too much stereotype,amoralism,misanthopy,and mostly neolibertarian media agenda to make for a decent conversation,not that some of leftist views expressed (few expeptions)
aren't naive at best.
So i will express my thoughts in the same manner and level of dialogue.

Since some of you are flattering yourselves on your comprehension of politics and based logic,and since we are speaking about Greece
i hope you realize that Tsipras is doing exactly what Merkel is doing at this point (and both have been doing for the past weeks).
Playing a "chess" game where they both have to sacrifice pawns (as a collateral damage or simply to get rid of inner circle opposition) ,while convincing their useful idiots
(people,politicians and elites alike) that there is an urgency in one hand but no serious collateral damage on the other if things go sour.

Well fear not.Greece will propably sign a 3rd memorandum as pretty much planned since february, and unless things go sour Eurozone will keep existing,but just for a bit,because
its coming to an end and sooner than he have expected.
And to be honest i dont really care despite the implications.
There are things in life we can do and things we cant but being an idiot is a cruel way to live -in prosperity or not-